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Hall of Merit: 1919 Ballot Discussion

Sorry it’s late, but a 17-hour door-to-door first day is a reasonable excuse. In a nutshell - roads were brutal, and I have a 50-mile commute on backroads in ice, and that damn new email virus, argh! As brutal a first day as one could ask for.

New eligibles:

ART DEVLIN
JOHNNY KLING
JOHN KNIGHT
CHARLEY O’LEARY
JIMMY SHECKARD
JOHN TITUS
TOM HUGHES
JOE LAKE
LEFTY LEIFIELD
LEW RICHIE
DOC WHITE

Hopefully I get the results up tomorrow early afternoon (I’m working 3-11 tomorrow, 7-3 Wednesday), but if I don’t it’ll be dinner time Wednesday. That’s still faster than the Hall of Fame turns them around though!

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: January 27, 2004 at 08:20 AM | 216 comment(s)
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Hall of Merit: Amendment to cover new voters and challenges to ballots

Thanks to John Murphy for taking the time to write this out!

I - Voting Requirements:

Before any prospective voter will be allowed the franchise, the following prerequisites must be met.

1) The prospective voter must submit to the Ballot Committee (see section II below) reasons for and against the top ten candidate returnees from the prior election. Saying there is no case against a candidate is reasonable sometimes, like in the case of Cy Young, for example. A one-line statement for each may be all that is needed, but it needs to reasoned and logical, as determined by the Ballot Committee.

2) The prospective voter must be familiar with sabermetrical analysis and be willing to use a form of it within their ranking system. Any sabermetrical method (including, but not limited to Win Shares, WARP, etc.) is welcome. Any variation on an established system or a totally new analytical system created by the prospective voter himself/herself are also welcome (provided they are mathematically sound). While we are not looking for 100% consensus, we are aiming our sights on voters who are knowledgeable and scientifically minded.

3) The Ballot Committee will review each prospective voter’s qualifications and their compliance with the voter requirements, and if the requirements are met, the voter will be granted a ballot.

II - Ballot Committee:

The five-person panel will review any ballot that is challenged by a member(s). It will also review any new applications from prospective voters. It will consist of four voters, plus the commissioner. If there are more than four candidates for the committee, an election will be held. Term of office will expire after six elections (three months).

If one of the voters challenges a ballot (and is then seconded by another voter), it goes before the committee to be reviewed. If the committee decides to kill it, the group as a whole can then veto the committee’s action with a supermajority (67%) vote.

Valid reasons for challenging a ballot include (but are not limited to):

*Incompetence (voting for Tom Brookens, for example)
*Failure to comply with the rules (not explaining why you voted for Brookens)

If a ballot is nullified due to incompetence, the voter will be on probation for two elections and will have to reapply for membership.

If a ballot is nullified due to not complying with certain rules (no explanations on the ballot, ineligible candidates on the ballot, etc.), the voter will be allowed to revise his/her ballot without any penalties, if compliance is met.

For new ballot applications, the Ballot Committee’s decision is final.

When a committee member’s term is up, he may run for re-election (or have his membership re-upped if no one challenges him). The first four members of the committee will receive terms of 3, 5, 7 and 9 elections, so that we’ll have one spot coming open every other election (once a month in real time), and so that we don’t have complete turnover at any point.

I think we’ve come to the point where we have to formalize the process somewhat. Like any ‘company’ when there’s only a few people you don’t need much documented, but as things grow, more things need to be formalized. We’ve only seen a few minor issues to date, but as always, we try to nip things in the bud before they become problematic.

As always, feel free to comment, or offer up a better mousetrap if you have one! But no mousetrap isn’t an option any longer.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: January 19, 2004 at 05:44 PM | 38 comment(s)
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Hall of Merit: 1918 Ballot

Voting is now open for 1918, where we’ll be electing one candidate.

We had some issues last year, so just a reiteration of the rules . . .

Voters must explain their ballot, at a minimum a sentence or two about the people they are voting for, preferably more.

You also have to explain why you didn’t vote for the returning top 10, this year that is:

Elmer Flick, Joe Kelley, Willie Keeler, Charlie Bennett, Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity, Bob Caruthers and Frank Grant. I suppose Sam Thompson and Rube Waddell are in the top 10 returnees, as well, though they didn’t finish in the top 10 last year.

Likewise, I think we should add another minor requirement/suggestion (I hate being the cop), if you are voting for someone who didn’t finish in the top 20 last year, it’s probably a good idea to give an in-depth (more than one sentence probably - unless it’s a helluva sentence :-) reason as to why. Convince us as to why we’re missing the boat!

John Murphy has written up the suggested amendment for requirements of new voters and for challenging a ballot, I’ll post it later today.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: January 19, 2004 at 04:34 PM | 106 comment(s)
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Hall of Merit: 1917 Results - Young and Clarke Elected

In a year where records fell, perhaps the biggest was that Cy Young became the first player to receive unanimous support as the top choice for the Hall of Merit. The election was a complete turn-around from 1916’s wide open affair as Young was named first on all 45 ballots.

Fred Clarke was also elected in his first year of eligibility, easily outpacing Elmer Flick, 920-643. 31 of 45 voters had Clarke as their second choice.

Flick easily jumped past Joe Kelley, who had been the top returning candidate, 643-586. Kelley missed election in 1916 by 2 points. This time, he just squeaked by Willie Keeler, who rounded out the top 5 with 582 points. Flick is now the front-runner for 1918, when only one candidate will be elected.

Jimmy Collins who finished 7th, is closing the gap on Charlie Bennett. Bennett beat Collins by 26 points in 1916, Collins closed the gap to 11 points this year.

Joe McGinnity, Bob Caruthers and Frank Grant rounded out the top 10. Grant actually tied with Sam Thompson for the 10 spot, and won the tie-breaker. Caruthers lost a little of the momentum he had been building, he was left off 18 ballots this year, he was only excluded from 13 in 1916.

A few other records fell this year. 45 people voted in the election, and 50 candidates received at least one vote.

RK   LY  Player             Pts Ballots   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
 1  n/e  Cy Young          1080    45    45  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0
 2  n/e  Fred Clarke        920    45     0 31  4  2  2  1  2  0  0  0  0  2  1  0  0
 3    3  Elmer Flick        643    44     0  1  9  2  5  7  4  6  3  4  0  2  0  1  0
 4    2  Joe Kelley         586    41     0  0 10  4  5  3  5  3  1  0  5  4  0  0  1
 5    4  Willie Keeler      582    40     0  3  4  7  4  2  5  4  3  2  0  2  3  0  1
 6    5  Charlie Bennett    496    32     0  3  7  5  4  2  1  3  3  1  0  0  2  0  1
 7    6  Jimmy Collins      485    39     0  0  2  5  4  6  1  3  3  2  3  0  2  5  3
 8    7  Joe McGinnity      398    32     0  1  0  6  1  2  6  1  2  1  2  2  3  3  2
 9    8  Bob Caruthers      326    27     0  1  1  4  2  0  1  2  3  0  2  6  2  1  2
10    9  Frank Grant        322    29     0  0  0  2  2  2  3  2  2  3  2  3  1  4  3
11   10  Sam Thompson       322    23     0  2  1  2  4  3  1  3  1  0  1  2  1  2  0
12   12  Rube Waddell       293    25     0  0  0  1  2  4  2  3  1  3  2  1  1  5  0
13   13  Hugh Duffy         250    22     0  0  0  0  2  3  1  1  4  4  0  1  3  3  0
14   11  Lip Pike           240    19     0  0  3  2  1  2  1  1  0  3  1  1  1  1  2
15   15  George Van Haltren 232    21     0  0  0  0  0  2  2  3  1  2  5  3  3  0  0
16   18  Hughie Jennings    227    18     0  1  1  1  2  1  0  2  2  1  3  1  2  0  1
17   16  Jake Beckley       219    22     0  0  0  0  1  0  2  1  1  2  6  0  6  2  1
18   14  Jimmy Ryan         217    21     0  0  0  0  1  0  0  2  3  5  2  3  3  1  1
19   17  Dicky Pearce       167    13     0  1  1  0  1  1  2  1  1  0  2  1  0  1  1
20   19  Pete Browning      161    15     0  0  1  1  0  2  0  0  2  2  0  1  2  1  3
21   20  Clark Griffith     123    13     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  2  2  2  5  0  0  2
22   21  Addie Joss         116    10     0  0  0  1  0  1  2  1  0  0  2  0  2  1  0
23   25  Mickey Welch        85     8     0  0  1  0  1  0  1  0  0  0  1  0  1  1  2
24  n/e  Frank Chance        77     7     0  0  0  0  1  0  1  1  0  1  1  0  0  1  1
25   22  Vic Willis          59     7     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  1  0  1  0  2  2
26  n/e  Sol White           59     6     0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  1  1  0  0  1  1  1
27   23  Cupid Childs        56     7     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  1  0  0  1  1  3
28   24  Jim McCormick       48     6     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  1  0  0  0  1  3
29   29  John McGraw         41     3     0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  1
30   28  Harry Wright        37     3     0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  1  1  0  0  0  0  0
31   27  Charley Jones       36     4     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  1  1  1  0
32   31  Herman Long         26     3     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  1  0  0  1
33   26  Lave Cross          23     3     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  1  0  1
34  n/e  Roy Thomas          22     3     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  1  1
35   37T Jim Whitney         18     2     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  1
36   30  Mike Tiernan        15     2     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  1  0
37   --  Denny Lyons         14     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0
38   32  Fielder Jones       13     2     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  1
39   33  Tip O'Neill         13     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0
40   40  Tom York            11     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0
41T  41  Levi Meyerle        10     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0
41T  --  Silver King         10     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0
41T n/e  Harry Davis         10     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0
44   37T Tommy Bond           8     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0
45T  34  Ed Williamson        7     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0
45T  37T Cy Seymour           7     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0
45T  --  Fred Dunlap          7     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0
48T  36  Mike Griffin         6     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1
48T  42  Deacon Philippe      6     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1
48T n/e  Topsy Hartsel        6     1     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1
Dropped Out: Tony Mullane (#35), Ginger Beaumont (#43).
Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: January 13, 2004 at 10:48 PM | 4 comment(s)
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Hall of Merit: 1918 Ballot Discussion

Sorry it’s late guys . . . the 1918 entry class is just a tad below the 1917 class . . .

1918:
NIXEY CALLAHAN
MIKE DONLIN
MATTY MCINTYRE
PAT MORAN
JAKE STAHL
BILLY SULLIVAN
BUSTER BROWN
CY MORGAN
BARNEY PELTY
JACK POWELL

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: January 13, 2004 at 02:05 PM | 178 comment(s)
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Hall of Merit: 1917 Ballot

Quite a group of newcomers, led by Cy Young and Fred Clarke.

We’ll be electing 2 players this year.

1917 New Eligibles:
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
634 164.3 1890 Cy Young-P (1955)
400 105.1 1894 Fred Clarke-LF (1960)
260 80.5 1899 Roy Thomas-CF (1959)
249 69.6 1894 Fred Tenney-1b (1952)
223 51.1 1899 Topsy Hartsel-LF (1944)
238 46.7 1896 Harry Davis-1b (1947)
237 46.0 1898 Frank Chance-1b (1924)
208 46.6 1898 Harry Steinfeldt-3b (1914)
184 49.9 1899 Kid Elberfeld-SS (1944)
202 43.1 1898 Bill Donovan-P (1923)
153 38.3 1901 Wid Conroy-3b (1959)
187 23.4 1902 Patsy Dougherty-LF (1940)
146 27.7 1899 Charlie Hemphill-CF (1953)
099 32.8 1903 Lee Tannehill-3B (1938)
119 24.6 1903 Doc Gessler-RF (1924)
120 10.4 1901 Kitty Bransfield-1b (1947)
(Negro). 1887 Sol White-2b/3b (1955)

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: January 05, 2004 at 03:59 PM | 77 comment(s)
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Hall of Merit: Mock 2004 Election

Thanks to Patrick W for tallying this up!

Paul Molitor edges Ryne Sandberg, and Bert Blyleven finished third. I’ve been busy, so I didn’t follow the discussion, but how anyone could leave Sandberg, Blyleven or Trammell off their ballot is beyond me.

Rk  Yr  Player             Pts Bal    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10
1   04  Paul Molitor       276  15    4  9  1  1 
2   03  Ryne Sandberg      262  14    8  4  2  
3   98  Bert Blyleven      202  14    2  2  7  1  1  1  
4   04  Dennis Eckersley   171  15    1     1  5  3  1  3  1    
5   02  Alan Trammell      144  13          1  4  4  3  1    
6   --  No Vote            133  --                      1  5  6  7 
7   00  Rich Gossage       127  12             2  5  4     1       
8   02  Andre Dawson        56   6          1        3        1  1 
9   96  Keith Hernandez     55   6                1  2  2        1  
10  97  Dave Parker         47   6                      3  1     2  
11  95  Tommy John          43   6                      2     1  3  
12  04  Dave Steib          43   5                1     1  2  1   
13  01  Don Mattingly       39   5                      2  1  1  1  
14  94  Bruce Sutter        38   4             1     1     2     
15  99  Dale Murphy         35   5                            5  
16  00  Jack Morris         33   3          1  1           1    
17  95  Jim Rice            21   2          1              1

 

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 31, 2003 at 01:53 PM | 6 comment(s)
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Hall of Merit: Bob Caruthers

Favre’s post on Caruthers will be reprinted in the discussion.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 24, 2003 at 03:21 PM | 48 comment(s)
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Hall of Merit: 1916 Results - Stovey elected in closest voting ever

In the closest balloting in the 19-year history of the Hall of Merit, Harry Stovey was elected, outpointing Joe Kelley 667-665. It was a wild election, 11 candidates received a first-place vote and no candidate was named on every ballot. 44 voters sent in ballots for the 2nd consecutive year. Stovey was in his 18th year of eligibility and will be 60 in December. He’s the 3rd oldest player selected to the Hall of Merit (Joe Start was almost 70 and Cal McVey was a month shy of his 64th birthday when inducted).

The previous closest election was Bid McPhee defeating McVey 751-747 in 1913 (McVey was elected a year later). The only other election decided by less than 10 points was in 1906, when Al Spalding defeated Ezra Sutton by 8.5 points. Sutton was elected in 1908.

Kelley nearly closed a 21-point gap from the 1915 election. Stovey’s two extra first place votes (9 vs. 7) sealed the deal for him, despite his being left off three ballots (Kelley was left off two ballots).

First-year eligible Elmer Flick was right on Stovey and Kelley’s heels, with 651 points. Another first-timer finished 4th, Wee Willie Keeler finished with 619 points.

Charlie Bennett moved from 6th to 5th, moving past Jimmy Collins.

There was a lot of movement this year Joe McGinnity moved up a spot into 7th (he and several others passed Sam Thompson, who dropped off 6 ballots entirely, and fell from 7th to 10th place).

Bob Caruthers vaulted from 14th to 8th place, being named on eight more ballots this year. Frank Grant moved from 10th to 9th (despite dropping from 356 to 352 points) and Thompson rounded out the top 10.

Lip Pike also made a run, moving past Hugh Duffy, Jimmy Ryan and George Van Haltren into 11th place.

Other first-year eligibles to receive votes include Rube Waddell (12th), Addie Joss (21st), Vic Willis (22nd), Cy Seymour (tied for 37th), Deacon Phillippe (42nd) and Ginger Beaumont (43rd).

Rk   LY  Player             Pts Bal    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
 1    3  Harry Stovey       667  41    9  4  6  3  3  1  2  2  2  1     3  2  3   
 2    4  Joe Kelley         665  42    7  3  3  6  2  4  4  3     4  2  2  1  1   
 3  n/e  Elmer Flick        651  40    4  5  4  4  9  3  2  3  1  3  1  1         
 4  n/e  Willie Keeler      619  41    5  5  3  3  2  4  4  3  2  2  3     2  2  1
 5    6  Charlie Bennett    586  33    9  8  2  3  1  1  3  2     1           3   
 6    5  Jimmy Collins      558  39    2  5  5  1  3  4     5  3  2  3  1  4     1
 7    8  Joe McGinnity      444  32    1  2  4  4     6  3     2     3  2  3  2   
 8   14  Bob Caruthers      379  31    2  2  1  3  1     2  2     1  6  3  3  2  3
 9   10  Frank Grant        352  29          1  3  4  3     2  3  2  2  2  4  2  1
10    7  Sam Thompson       345  24    1  2  4  4  2  1  1     2  1  1  2     1  2
11   13  Lip Pike           320  22    2  3  2  1  3     1  1  3  1  2     1     2
12  n/e  Rube Waddell       311  23       1  1  2  3  1  2  3  2  3  1  2  1  1   
13    9  Hugh Duffy         303  25             2  3     3  5  3  1  2  3  1     2
14   11  Jimmy Ryan         298  25                3  2  4  1  4  4  2  1  2  2   
15   12  George Van Haltren 271  23          1     1  5  1  2  2  2  2  3  1  3   
16   15  Jake Beckley       259  24          1  1  1     2  2  2  3  3  2  3  1  3
17   17  Dicky Pearce       244  18    2     1  2     3        2  3  1     4      
18   16  Hughie Jennings    236  19       3  1  1     1  1     3  4     1  1     3
19   18  Pete Browning      200  17          1     2  1  2  2  1  2  2        3  1
20   19  Clark Griffith     164  17                      1  1  2  2  2  4  1  3  1
21  n/e  Addie Joss         112  10          2           2  1        1        1  3
22  n/e  Vic Willis         101  13                         1        1  3     3  5
23   21  Cupid Childs        94  10.5        1              1  1           2  2  3.5
24   20  Jim McCormick       86   9                1  1        1  1        1     4
25   22  Mickey Welch        69   6.5     1           1        1              2  1.5
26   28  Lave Cross          55   6                            1     1  2  1  1   
27   24  Charley Jones       45   5                         1           2  1     1
28   30  Harry Wright        43   4                      1     1  1              1
29   25  John MGraw          42   3.5           1     1                       1   .5
30   23  Mike Tiernan        37   4.5                                   2  2      .5
31   32  Herman Long         29   3.5                                1  1     1   .5
32   26  Fielder Jones       23   3                                     1     2   
33   33  Tip O'Neill         21   2                   1                          1
34   27  Ed Williamson       17   2.5                                      1     1.5
35   29  Tony Mullane        16   2                                     1     1   
36   31  Mike Griffin        15   2                                        1  1   
37T n/e  Cy Seymour          14   1                      1                        
37T  34  Jim Whitney         14   1                      1                        
37T  36  Tommy Bond          14   1                      1                        
40   --  Tom York            13   1                         1                     
41   37  Levi Meyerle        10   1                                  1            
42  n/e  Deacon Phillippe     8   1                                        1      
43  n/e  Ginger Beaumont      6   1                                              1
Dropped Out: Jack Chesbro (#35), Bobby Mathews (#38T), Jesse Tannehill (#38T),
Silver King (#40).

Since the last results were announced, two great HoMers of the early 70s have passed away, Ross Barnes, age 64 (February 1915) and Al Spalding age 65 (September 1915).

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 24, 2003 at 12:10 AM | 10 comment(s)
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Hall of Merit: Joss, Koufax and Dean

I think a separate thread to discuss the likes of Addie Joss, Sandy Koufax and Dizzy Dean is appropriate.

These guys are in a family unto themselves. I suppose if Pedro Martinez were to retire tomorrow, he’d be in the group too, though he’s a notch above those three.

These guys were amazing pitchers, who for one reason or another only had 6-8 years of greatness.

Where should we rank them? I was surprised at how little support Joss received in his first go-round. I didn’t vote for him either, but I think I could easily be convinced to, I’m waiting for my revised Pennants Added numbers before I vote for Joss. Players like Hughie Jennings and Bob Caruthers received much more support, but I don’t see them as being any better than Joss. How can one justify keeping Joss of the ballot, but voting for Dean or Koufax? I’m not saying you can’t, but it’s not immediately obvious, and I have to think Koufax and probably Dean will do much better than Joss did.

You don’t rack up a 142 ERA+ (especially in a low ERA era, where it’s tougher to have an extreme ERA+) over 2300 IP without being a great pitcher. Sure he didn’t pitch an incredible amount of innings every year (in the context of his time), but neither does Pedro, and Koufax was only in the top 10 in the NL 4 times, though he did lead the league twice. Dean was a horse during his 6 year run.

I think these three pitchers are probably the most fascinating candidates we’ll see.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 22, 2003 at 10:41 PM | 0 comment(s)
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