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Sunday, September 03, 2006

Defense Over the Last Twenty Years - Part Five: AL Outfield

Top Career Defensive Performances – American League Outfield

The American League outfield leaders are full of people I wouldn’t have thought of.  There are a few players I do think of, but many others I wouldn’t have named.  It isn’t that they aren’t good fielders, but there simply are very few outstanding fielders in the OF for the AL over the last 20 years.

Left Field

Left Field saw a lot of players rotating through the position and had very few “career” left fielders over the period.  Over two thousand players logged innings in left field - that’s 100 a season for the 14 teams.  It’s obviously an offensive position.

The leader over the last two decades was Garret Anderson.  He has played a lot and played well.  He’s good enough to spend time at right field and center.  He’s not great, and it shows with a mediocre, but above average, RS/150.  Anderson is much better in left than the other slots.

YEAR	POS	NAME	LAST	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1994	LF	Garret	Anderson	Cal	AL	4	28.0	0	10
1995	LF	Garret	Anderson	Cal	AL	99	815.7	2	4
1996	LF	Garret	Anderson	Cal	AL	140	1247.3	10	11
1997	LF	Garret	Anderson	Ana	AL	130	1085.7	9	11
1998	LF	Garret	Anderson	Ana	AL	39	303.0	0	-1
1999	LF	Garret	Anderson	Ana	AL	32	279.7	4	20
2001	LF	Garret	Anderson	Ana	AL	144	1252.7	2	2
2002	LF	Garret	Anderson	Ana	AL	137	1178.7	7	8
2003	LF	Garret	Anderson	Ana	AL	144	1241.3	9	10
2005	LF	Garret	Anderson	LAA	AL	106	920.0	1	1

10 yrs	LF	Garret	Anderson	LAA	AL	975	8352.0	45	7
5 yrs	CF	Garret	Anderson	Ana	AL	404	3394.7	-10	-4
8 yrs	RF	Garret	Anderson	Ana	AL	154	1290.3	3	3

12 yrs	OF	Garret	Anderson	Ana	AL	1533	13217.0	38	4

The second place left fielder will please most every reader - Rickey Henderson.  Rickey has played a long time, and has always played well when in the field.

YEAR	POS	NAME	LAST	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1987	LF	Rickey	Henderson	NYY	AL	34	273.7	1	5
1988	LF	Rickey	Henderson	NYY	AL	136	1172.0	10	11
1989	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Oak	AL	82	713.7	10	19
1989	LF	Rickey	Henderson	NYY	AL	65	558.3	7	16
1990	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Oak	AL	119	993.3	4	5
1991	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Oak	AL	119	982.3	-1	-2
1992	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Oak	AL	108	883.3	3	4
1993	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Tor	AL	44	377.0	3	10
1993	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Oak	AL	74	630.7	-1	-1
1994	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Oak	AL	66	518.3	4	10
1995	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Oak	AL	90	741.3	-3	-5
1997	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Ana	AL	11	92.0	1	10
1998	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Oak	AL	142	1104.0	7	9
2000	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Sea	AL	88	691.0	2	3
2002	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Bos	AL	49	378.3	-3	-10

15 yrs	LF	Rickey	Henderson	Bos	AL	1227	10109.3	42	6

I want to include a top notch young player - Carl Crawford.  Crawford has an exceptional rate, although not the highest.  He’s also a good offensive player and should be recognized more often as a star.

YEAR	POS	NAME	LAST	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
2002	LF	Carl	Crawford	TB	AL	63	561.3	1	2
2003	LF	Carl	Crawford	TB	AL	137	1159.3	7	8
2004	LF	Carl	Crawford	TB	AL	122	1010.0	13	17
2005	LF	Carl	Crawford	TB	AL	147	1247.7	11	12

4 yrs	LF	Carl	Crawford	TB	AL	469	3978.3	31	11

Crawford only has four seasons, and that can easily erase, but after watching him, he has the speed and the ability to pass Anderson before he becomes a free agent.

Center Field

Centerfield is the position that everyone knows who the best fielders are.  However, the leader in CF put some distance between him and the rest of the crowd.  That’s an impressive feat at such a defensive position and one where we saw extreme evenness of talent in the NL.  The third best CF has moved on to the NL, but he piled up a fistful of runs saved during his tenure.  Carlos Beltran also hit a ton. 

YEAR	POS	NAME	Last	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1998	CF	Carlos	Beltran	KC	AL	14	117.0	1	12
1999	CF	Carlos	Beltran	KC	AL	154	1353.7	11	11
2000	CF	Carlos	Beltran	KC	AL	83	723.3	4	7
2001	CF	Carlos	Beltran	KC	AL	152	1324.0	1	1
2002	CF	Carlos	Beltran	KC	AL	149	1308.3	11	11
2003	CF	Carlos	Beltran	KC	AL	130	1123.0	10	12
2004	CF	Carlos	Beltran	KC	AL	69	597.0	1	3

7 yrs	CF	Carlos	Beltran	KC	AL	751	6546.3	38	8

Like Beltran, the second best fielder has moved over to the NL.  Aaron Rowand also posted ridiculously high RS/150 numbers.  He ran into the outfield wall in his new park in Philadelphia and it appears to have affected his game.  We’ll see if Rowand can get back on track - with such a high defensive rate, he has tremendous potential for a phenomenal career.

YEAR	POS	NAME	Last	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
2001	CF	Aaron	Rowand	CWS	AL	32	237.3	4	23
2002	CF	Aaron	Rowand	CWS	AL	76	602.7	9	20
2003	CF	Aaron	Rowand	CWS	AL	65	379.7	7	25
2004	CF	Aaron	Rowand	CWS	AL	126	1019.7	11	14
2005	CF	Aaron	Rowand	CWS	AL	157	1368.7	16	16

5 yrs	CF	Aaron	Rowand	CWS	AL	456	3608.0	47	17

The best centerfielder is easily guessed.  He gets mentioned for his ability to run down anything in the air regularly, and he’s one of the players, like Ozzie Smith, that people want to know just how good he was.  I’m also curious about who the Angels use for scouts, because they do a great job of identifying great outfielders.  The top CF in the AL over the last 20 years is Devon White.

YEAR	POS	NAME	Last	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1987	CF	Devon	White	Cal	AL	67	452.7	4	10
1988	CF	Devon	White	Cal	AL	116	979.7	12	17
1989	CF	Devon	White	Cal	AL	154	1366.7	21	20
1990	CF	Devon	White	Cal	AL	122	1014.7	8	11
1991	CF	Devon	White	Tor	AL	156	1384.0	7	7
1992	CF	Devon	White	Tor	AL	152	1307.0	12	13
1993	CF	Devon	White	Tor	AL	145	1266.7	5	5
1994	CF	Devon	White	Tor	AL	98	814.7	7	11
1995	CF	Devon	White	Tor	AL	100	862.3	0	0

9 yrs	CF	Devon	White	Cal/Tor	AL	1110	9448.3	75	11
6 yrs	CF	Devon	White	Fla+	NL	609	5038.3	22	6

15 yrs	CF	Devon	White	All	All	1719	14486.6	97	9

White was an outstanding fielder as you all expected.  10 wins above average - that’s awesome out of centerfield defense.

There is one more centerfielder I want to list - except that he’s a first baseman.  Or sometimes a left fielder.  Whichever, he’s got incredible fielding instincts is stands out all over the field.  Darin Erstad is just Mr. Leather.

YEAR	POS	NAME	Last	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1996	CF	Darin	Erstad	Cal	AL	36	309.3	1	3
1997	CF	Darin	Erstad	Ana	AL	1	9.0	0	36
1998	CF	Darin	Erstad	Ana	AL	3	26.0	1	43
1999	CF	Darin	Erstad	Ana	AL	2	18.0	0	4
2000	CF	Darin	Erstad	Ana	AL	30	219.7	4	22
2001	CF	Darin	Erstad	Ana	AL	146	1269.3	7	7
2002	CF	Darin	Erstad	Ana	AL	143	1228.7	14	16
2003	CF	Darin	Erstad	Ana	AL	66	559.3	6	14

8 yrs	CF	Darin	Erstad	Ana	AL	427	3639.3	32	12
4 yrs	LF	Darin	Erstad	Ana	AL	260	2208.3	31	19
8 yrs	1B	Darin	Erstad	LAA	AL	568	4658.3	28	8

10 yrs	All	Darin	Erstad	Ana	AL	1255	10506.0	91	12

Erstad is a brilliant defensive player.  His left field RS/150 numbers dwarf everyone else, and his RS/150 CF numbers are the tops as well.  The Angels are wasting some significant value playing him at first base.

Right Field

What would an American League outfield ranking be without a representative from SoCal?  The third best right fielder, in terms of most RSpt, is Tim Salmon. 

YEAR	POS	NAME	Last	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1992	RF	Tim	Salmon	Cal	AL	21	189.3	0	3
1993	RF	Tim	Salmon	Cal	AL	141	1220.7	12	13
1994	RF	Tim	Salmon	Cal	AL	99	872.7	2	3
1995	RF	Tim	Salmon	Cal	AL	142	1257.3	10	10
1996	RF	Tim	Salmon	Cal	AL	153	1340.7	6	6
1997	RF	Tim	Salmon	Ana	AL	153	1373.7	8	8
1998	RF	Tim	Salmon	Ana	AL	19	163.7	0	-2
1999	RF	Tim	Salmon	Ana	AL	89	786.3	1	1
2000	RF	Tim	Salmon	Ana	AL	124	1070.7	4	5
2001	RF	Tim	Salmon	Ana	AL	125	1087.3	0	0
2002	RF	Tim	Salmon	Ana	AL	111	919.7	4	5
2003	RF	Tim	Salmon	Ana	AL	78	604.3	-3	-7
2004	RF	Tim	Salmon	Ana	AL	6	39.0	0	0

13 yrs	RF	Tim	Salmon	Ana	AL	1261	10925.3	43	5

Salmon was always a solid fielder if not spectacular. 

From time to time I read a discussion about the Atlanta Braves ability to judge talent, and they never trade away a future star.  Well, almost never.  Jermaine Dye is a leading candidate for MVP this season, and his career in the outfield is just as stellar.  Dye finished second in RSpt over the last twenty years. 

YEAR	POS	NAME	Last	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1997	RF	Jermaine	Dye	KC	AL	75	600.0	3	7
1998	RF	Jermaine	Dye	KC	AL	59	513.3	9	25
1999	RF	Jermaine	Dye	KC	AL	157	1359.7	9	9
2000	RF	Jermaine	Dye	KC	AL	146	1260.3	8	8
2001	RF	Jermaine	Dye	KC	AL	92	796.3	10	17
2001	RF	Jermaine	Dye	Oak	AL	61	538.7	1	2
2002	RF	Jermaine	Dye	Oak	AL	111	956.3	-7	-9
2003	RF	Jermaine	Dye	Oak	AL	60	500.3	-1	-3
2004	RF	Jermaine	Dye	Oak	AL	134	1178.0	8	9
2005	RF	Jermaine	Dye	CWS	AL	140	1235.3	6	6

9 yrs	RF	Jermaine	Dye	All	AL	1035	8938.3	46	7

I would doubt even hardcore baseball fans like us would have guessed these two as the top fielders.  What makes it worse is the overall leader.  As this cannot be guessed, I’ll just tell you: Paul “Rumpelstiltskin” O’Neill.  Not a typo; not a calculation error.  I am stunned at his finish.

YEAR	POS	NAME	Last	TEAM	LG	GP	INN	RSpt	RS/150
1993	RF	Paul	O'Neill	NYY	AL	103	759.3	6	10
1994	RF	Paul	O'Neill	NYY	AL	90	753.3	2	4
1995	RF	Paul	O'Neill	NYY	AL	107	856.3	5	7
1996	RF	Paul	O'Neill	NYY	AL	146	1242.7	18	19
1997	RF	Paul	O'Neill	NYY	AL	146	1263.0	4	4
1998	RF	Paul	O'Neill	NYY	AL	150	1299.7	17	17
1999	RF	Paul	O'Neill	NYY	AL	151	1303.3	6	6
2000	RF	Paul	O'Neill	NYY	AL	140	1153.3	2	3
2001	RF	Paul	O'Neill	NYY	AL	130	1094.3	-4	-4

9 yrs	RF	Paul	O'Neill	NYY	AL	1163	9725.3	55	8
6 yrs	RF	Paul	O'Neill	Cin	NL	685	5666.3	37	9

15yrs	RF	Paul	O'Neill	Cin/NYY	ALL	1848	15391.6	92	8

O’Neill was good nearly every season and had a couple of monster seasons - coinciding with Yankee Championships.  His defense in 1998 certainly contributed to those 125 wins.  Wow, O’Neill’s total is amzaingly high.

There is the outfield for the last twenty years: Anderson, White and O’Neill.  Dye, Erstad and White all won a Gold Glove.  White won seven, and he looks like he deserved them. 

Next up: the Missed and the Misunderstood.  Who have we missed?  Who do we have to know about?  Jim Edmonds?  Chipper Jones?  Derek Jeter?

Chris Dial Posted: September 03, 2006 at 03:03 AM | 58 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Chris Dial Posted: September 03, 2006 at 06:31 AM (#2166223)
Hopefully I'll get 10 Al and 10 NL players - or just 10 if most aren't that curious. There are definitely three people need to know about.
   2. Walt Davis Posted: September 03, 2006 at 06:53 AM (#2166228)
Dye's injury clearly cost him those two seasons in the AL so I'd probably say he's been as good as O'Neill. What were O'Neill's numbers in the NL? If those were good too, I'm willing to change my mind.

I can't imagine that I ever would have come up with O'Neill's name, but he always looked pretty solid out there to me.
   3. Tom (and his broom) Posted: September 03, 2006 at 06:54 AM (#2166229)
Don't know if you covered him already but...

there is no question that no baseball player of the last 20 years is as famous for playing defense as....
.
.
.
.
.
Deion Sanders...

did he cover as much ground in the outfield as he id in the backfield?
   4. baudib Posted: September 03, 2006 at 07:48 AM (#2166236)
I'm not surprised at all that Paul O'Neill is the best in RF. i would have been interested in seeing Ichiro! though.
   5. Erik Posted: September 03, 2006 at 07:49 AM (#2166237)
And yet people still disagree with me when I tell them that the 2002 Angels team is the perfect example of a great team built on great defense... A flyball pitching staff with an outfield of Anderson Erstad and Salmon.
   6. baudib Posted: September 03, 2006 at 08:26 AM (#2166242)
BTW, any chance that there is some park illusion in Anaheim?
   7. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: September 03, 2006 at 09:32 AM (#2166243)
Is it safe to assume that Henderson's ratings in 2002 were affected by the Green Monster?
   8. RTSquared is not on the Rangers' DL...yet... Posted: September 03, 2006 at 01:26 PM (#2166267)
Two guys that might not be of enormous general interest, but that I'd love to know more about:

1) Rusty Greer: Johnny Oates always used to say that you needed a LF with nearly as much range as a CF at TBiA, and the announcers unerringly raved about his defense...how much sizzle and how much steak?

2) Ruben Sierra: He came up as a huge-potential 5-tool guy...did his defensive mirror his offensive decline?
   9. Chris Dial Posted: September 03, 2006 at 02:08 PM (#2166284)
BTW, any chance that there is some park illusion in Anaheim?

I don't know what park effect would have you get easier FBs. Not sure how that would work.

Is it safe to assume that Henderson's ratings in 2002 were affected by the Green Monster?

Absolutely.
   10. Chris Dial Posted: September 03, 2006 at 02:09 PM (#2166285)
I need to add O'Neill's NL work above. Good call, Walt.

TOT RF Paul O'Neill Cin NL 685 5666.3 37 9
   11. Chris Dial Posted: September 03, 2006 at 02:28 PM (#2166290)
Greer was "around average" but slightly below over his LF career. he bounced between +3 and -6. He did the same in CF and RF too (+2 to -2 in less action).
   12. Cowboy Popup Posted: September 03, 2006 at 02:41 PM (#2166294)
Chris, I think Robbie Alomar and Bernie Williams would probably generate interest. Anyway, thanks for the continued work, it's an awesome resource to have.
   13. Chris Dial Posted: September 03, 2006 at 02:57 PM (#2166301)
Cowboy,
two excellent selections.
   14. John DiFool2 Posted: September 03, 2006 at 03:59 PM (#2166326)
How did Damon finish?
   15. Danny Posted: September 03, 2006 at 04:13 PM (#2166333)
I don't know if they've been discussed elsewhere, but I'd like to see how Griffey and Puckett rate.
   16. WillYoung Posted: September 03, 2006 at 04:15 PM (#2166334)
Dial, how about Rob Deer, Bobby Bonilla, or Pete Incaviglia or someone from the other extreme?
   17. Danny Posted: September 03, 2006 at 04:21 PM (#2166337)
Also, IIRC, didn't UZR have Anderson as below average in LF and terrible in CF? Am I remembering wrong, or is there some reason for the discrepancy?

Thanks for all the great work, it's really nice to have something other than FRAA to look at players with. Actually, it might be interesting to see how close (or far) your numbers are from theirs.
   18. Chris Dial Posted: September 03, 2006 at 08:16 PM (#2166583)
Danny,
the UZR numbers you know were off, and have been recalculated.

Happy to post them.
   19. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 03, 2006 at 08:53 PM (#2166638)
I'd be intereseted in Gary Pettis, Kenny Lofton, and Dave Winfield in the years you may have.
   20. Walt Davis Posted: September 04, 2006 at 06:59 AM (#2167052)
I don't know what park effect would have you get easier FBs. Not sure how that would work.

Well, if big walls hurt your numbers, maybe short walls help them. Not too many of those (RF in Fenway, corners in Dodger Stadium are pretty low right?). But a ball that would normally hit 6 feet off the wall and count against an OF ends up in the stands and doesn't. I can't imagine there are enough of those to matter.

Also if hitting backgrounds make a difference (and I'm not 100% sure they do make a big one), then maybe different stadia offer better fielding backgrounds. One can certainly imagine that the Metrodome is tougher to field flyballs in.

And what about foul territory down the lines? I'd imagine LF and RF in Wrigley must lose a few chances that other OF get -- or are those not included in the zones?

Here's a real nerdy project -- any way you can look at the impact of "sun fields" with this data? You'd need PBP (preferably timed but you can probably guesstimate from starting time and batters faced ... adjusting for rain and other delays if you can) and weather reports.
   21. Baldrick Posted: September 04, 2006 at 07:13 AM (#2167055)
Mike Cameron?
   22. Chris Dial Posted: September 04, 2006 at 02:30 PM (#2167123)
Walt,
yes, those are the things that contribute, but as you note, that is not likely much of an impact. I do like tohe comparison to the hitters eye, and think there is something to that - the Metrodome you mention. I don't see that in Anaheim, and usually, LF and RF fielders ahve different backgrounds.
   23. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: September 04, 2006 at 09:34 PM (#2167356)
Will:

Regarding your mention of Rob Deer in the same breath as Inky either you have been given bad information or misinterpreted some data. Despite some high error totals Deer was above average in the outfield. Deer was a big guy with shoulders as wide as a buffalo's, but Rob moved very well. He challenged many a wall in his time in Milwaukee.

I will be flabbergasted if Chris' handiwork grades Deer as anything less then average.

I understand this reads as "homerism", but I believe in giving credit where credit is due. Rob Deer made a positive all-around contribution to the Brewers in the late 80's/early 90's.
   24. scareduck Posted: September 05, 2006 at 12:54 AM (#2167663)
Erstad is a brilliant defensive player. His left field RS/150 numbers dwarf everyone else, and his RS/150 CF numbers are the tops as well. The Angels are wasting some significant value playing him at first base.

Everybody says this yet they forget his injury history. 1B is merely the Angels saying, okay, we're going to get some value out of him, because he's going to self-destruct if we leave him in center.
   25. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: September 05, 2006 at 12:41 PM (#2167956)
1B is merely the Angels saying, okay, we're going to get some value out of him, because he's going to self-destruct if we leave him in center.

What's the point? Leave him in CF until he self-destructs, and meanwhile win some games with a decent hitter at 1B.
   26. Foghorn Leghorn Posted: September 05, 2006 at 01:03 PM (#2167967)
What Dr. Memory said.
   27. AROM Posted: September 05, 2006 at 01:06 PM (#2167970)
What's the point? Leave him in CF until he self-destructs, and meanwhile win some games with a decent hitter at 1B.

Yeah. Great Idea. Maybe they should try that in 2006.
   28. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: September 05, 2006 at 02:47 PM (#2168042)
Maybe they should try that in 2006.

Maybe they should. 8-)
   29. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: September 05, 2006 at 05:38 PM (#2168217)
The only surprise here is that Tim Salmon isn't first amongst RF, though he's been beat up for the last five or six years or so, which is where Dye gains ground.

I remember Paul O'Neill always rating highly in ZR in the mid-to-late-90s, and always thinking that this was a huge obstacle to accepting ZR. It always seemed like Bernie had to come over and bail him out on any fly in the gap; of course, I only saw the Yankees a few times per season, which really isn't the way to evaluate anybody.
   30. AROM Posted: September 05, 2006 at 05:56 PM (#2168235)
Salmon was still a plus fielder in 2002, but that's the year I remember him slowing down a bit. The Angels noticed it too, and replaced him with Alex Ochoa in late innings down the stretch. (after first pinch running with Figgins).
   31. SG Posted: September 05, 2006 at 06:07 PM (#2168243)
I thought there may be a a park factor for RF in Yankee Stadium. Less ground to cover = smaller zone = higher ZR? However, a look at the team totals for 1987-2005 doesn't seem to think there's much of one.

YEAR    TEAM    LG      POS     GP      GS      INN     TC      PO      A       E       DP      FPCT    RF      Avg
1987    NYY     AL      RF      172     0       1446.1  297     288     6       3       1       0.99    1.85    
-3
1988    NYY     AL      RF      180     0       1457.3  337     329     4       4       1       0.988   2.08    
-9
1989    NYY     AL      RF      188     0       1415.2  406     380     20      6       4       0.985   2.58    7
1990    NYY     AL      RF      189     0       1444.2  371     345     17      9       3       0.976   2.31    
-5
1991    NYY     AL      RF      186     162     1445.6  369     349     17      3       6       0.992   2.3     
-2
1992    NYY     AL      RF      187     162     1452.1  352     334     10      8       3       0.977   2.18    
-2
1993    NYY     AL      RF      197     162     1438.1  302     291     7       4       3       0.987   1.89    9
1994    NYY     AL      RF      131     113     1019.2  252     243     8       1       0       0.996   2.23    
-2
1995    NYY     AL      RF      178     145     1284.2  300     288     6       6       2       0.98    2.1     3
1996    NYY     AL      RF      191     162     1440.3  358     347     10      1       3       0.997   2.24    21
1997    NYY     AL      RF      186     162     1467.2  360     340     9       11      1       0.969   2.21    4
1998    NYY     AL      RF      179     162     1457.2  337     322     11      4       5       0.988   2.08    16
1999    NYY     AL      RF      184     162     1439.2  341     322     11      8       3       0.977   2.13    5
2000    NYY     AL      RF      202     161     1424.4  386     376     6       4       4       0.99    2.44    2
2001    NYY     AL      RF      194     161     1451.1  300     293     3       4       0       0.987   1.86    0
2002    NYY     AL      RF      201     161     1452.3  319     304     8       7       2       0.978   1.98    
-6
2003    NYY     AL      RF      186     161     1452.3  319     304     8       7       2       0.978   1.98    
-1
2004    NYY     AL      RF      193     162     1444.2  359     339     13      7       4       0.981   2.24    
-7
2005    NYY     AL      RF      189     163     1431.8  322     310     7       5       1       0.984   2.02    
-20
Total                                                                                                           10 
   32. Boots Day Posted: September 05, 2006 at 06:11 PM (#2168250)
Chris, I'd be interested to see Jay Buhner's numbers. He always looked terrible to me, but he did win a Gold Glove one year, based pretty much solely on his throwing arm.
   33. SG Posted: September 05, 2006 at 06:30 PM (#2168265)
Boots, I'm not Chris, but you're right, Buhner was pretty bad.

YEAR    POS     Age     NAME            TEAM    LG      GP      INN     RSpt    RS/162
1987    RF      22      Jay Buhner      NYY     AL      2       18      0       32
1988    RF      23      Jay Buhner      NYY     AL      3       9.1     0       42
1988    RF      23      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      56      482     7       22
1989    RF      24      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      56      479.1   
-5      -15
1990    RF      25      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      39      304     
-7      -32
1991    RF      26      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      131     1011.1  
-4      -6
1992    RF      27      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      150     1325.1  
-10     -11
1993    RF      28      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      148     1286.1  
-13     -15
1994    RF      29      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      95      822     
-5      -8
1995    RF      30      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      120     1046    
-16     -23
1996    RF      31      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      142     1230.1  
-9      -11
1997    RF      32      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      154     1326    
-9      -10
1998    RF      33      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      70      572.2   
-10     -26
1999    RF      34      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      85      694     
-4      -9
2000    RF      35      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      104     803     
-8      -15
2001    RF      36      Jay Buhner      Sea     AL      2       11      0       40

16 Yrs  RF              Jay Buhner      NYY
/Sea AL      1357    114198 -93     -12 


I'm using Chris's method here, although it may be a few runs off here and there. I'm also using RS/162, not RS/150.
   34. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: September 05, 2006 at 06:54 PM (#2168292)
Oh, and what do we have on Gary Pettis for these years?
   35. Mike Green Posted: September 05, 2006 at 07:02 PM (#2168297)
Jesse Barfield 1986-91? It's not quite his peak, but I think that'll give you the gold standard in right-field.
   36. Chris Dial Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:01 AM (#2168693)
People won't like the Pettis numbers:
1987    CF    Gary    Pettis    Cal    AL    131    990.3    3    5
1988    CF    Gary    Pettis    Det    AL    126    1025.0    7    9
1989    CF    Gary    Pettis    Det    AL    119    1022.7    -5    -7
1990    CF    Gary    Pettis    Tex    AL    128    1032.0    -4    -5
1991    CF    Gary    Pettis    Tex    AL    126    782.0    -2    -4
1992    CF    Gary    Pettis    Det    AL    46    389.3    3    11
TOT    CF    Gary    Pettis    Det    AL    676    5241.3    2    0
   37. Chris Dial Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:03 AM (#2168697)
Barfield wasn't great.
1987    RF    Jesse    Barfield    Tor    AL    153    1253.7    3    3
1988    RF    Jesse    Barfield    Tor    AL    131    1051.0    -1    -2
1989    RF    Jesse    Barfield    NYY    AL    122    1005.7    5    7
1989    RF    Jesse    Barfield    Tor    AL    21    179.0    1    8
1990    RF    Jesse    Barfield    NYY    AL    152    1193.3    -2    -3
1991    RF    Jesse    Barfield    NYY    AL    81    678.7    2    4
1992    RF    Jesse    Barfield    NYY    AL    30    236.0    -3    -19
TOT    RF    Jesse    Barfield    NYY    AL    690    5597.3    5    1
   38. Chris Dial Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:06 AM (#2168700)
Lofton in teh AL:
1992    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Cle    AL    143    1256.3    6    6
1993    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Cle    AL    147    1245.0    5    5
1994    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Cle    AL    112    975.7    9    13
1995    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Cle    AL    114    974.0    -3    -4
1996    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Cle    AL    153    1334.0    0    -1
1998    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Cle    AL    154    1322.7    6    6
1999    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Cle    AL    119    991.3    0    0
2000    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Cle    AL    135    1152.0    11    13
2001    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Cle    AL    130    1077.7    6    7
2002    CF    Kenny    Lofton    CWS    AL    92    744.3    -3    -6
2004    CF    Kenny    Lofton    NYY    AL    65    539.3    2    4
TOT    CF    Kenny    Lofton    NYY    AL    1364    11612.3    37    4
   39. Chris Dial Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:08 AM (#2168704)
Nice formatting, SG. You suck.
   40. Srul Itza Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:15 AM (#2168718)
Just a reminder that I would like to see Omar Vizquel's number in your final article, to see how the hype/Gold Gloves stand up to reality.
   41. Chris Dial Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:16 AM (#2168721)
Lofton in the NL:
1991    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Hou    NL    20    151.3    2    16
1997    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Atl    NL    122    1047.3    2    3
2002    CF    Kenny    Lofton    SF    NL    44    370.3    4    14
2003    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Pit    NL    81    714.0    -2    -3
2003    CF    Kenny    Lofton    ChC    NL    55    456.0    5    14
2005    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Phi    NL    97    741.0    0    0
TOTA    CF    Kenny    Lofton    Phi    NL    419    3480.0    10    4

   42. Danny Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:17 AM (#2168722)
How bad was Jose Canseco?
   43. AROM Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:20 AM (#2168731)
The best years for Gary Pettis were 85 & 86. Zone rating doesn't have anything to do with Barfield's great throwing arm.
   44. John Lowenstein Apathy Club Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:31 AM (#2168748)
Barfield lost his speed fast; by 1987 when Chris's numbers start he was on a downslope with the glove. His best years were 85-86.

That reminds me of something I wanted to look at using Retrosheet... Barfield's double plays. Bill James once noted that although most outfield DPs are doubling off runners, most of Barfield's DPs (he has eight in '85 and eight in '86, huge numbers) were "probably" on aborted sac flies and therefore had an impact of one run apiece (plus the value of the out). I have wanted to check that for a while now because while it squares with my memory of watching the Jays in those years, I frankly don't trust that kind of reasoning.
   45. John Lowenstein Apathy Club Posted: September 06, 2006 at 03:28 AM (#2168827)
OK, after twenty years I finally could check Bill's (and my) suspicion.

By the way, I just went back and found the original comment is on p.264 of the '87 Abstract, in Jesse's player comment as the #1 AL rightfielder. 20 years and I can remember huge chunks of the Abstracts word for word; and yet I can't remember the name of the woman I was ####ing in 1992 and '93. I must be diseased.

Anyhow, I looked at the Retrosheet dailies for Barfield's 21 double plays in 84-86.

4/19/84... ORIOLES 8TH: Singleton hit into a double play (right to first) [Lowenstein out at second]

5/21/84... TWINS 6TH: Engle hit into a double play (right to first) [Hrbek out at second]

7/15/84... ATHLETICS 5TH: Almon hit into a double play (right to first) [Wagner out at second]

7/25/84... ROYALS 3RD: Orta hit into a double play (right to second to first) [Sheridan out at second]

8/25/84... TWINS 9TH: Washington hit into a double play (right to shortstop) [Teufel out at third] (note : this ended the 9th inning of a tie game. Talk about your bonehead plays by Teufel.)

5/5/85... MARINERS 5TH: Bradley hit into a double play [Owen out at home (right to catcher)]

7/9/85... MARINERS 2ND: Reynolds hit into a double play [Presley out at home (right to catcher)] and then, because he felt he hadn't had enough excitement, MARINERS 3RD: G. Thomas singled to right [Bradley out at home (right to catcher), G. Thomas out at home (catcher to left to catcher)]; Martinez breaks ankle on collision at plate; Thomas takes 3b on throw; Martinez (on ground) throws into lf; Bell throws home and Martinez makes catch and tag while seated.

That game, incidentally, went 13 innings and the Jays won 9-4. The Mariners had three guys thrown out at the plate in two innings in a game they eventually lost in extras, and yet Chuck Cottier is still alive. I wonder who his third base coach was.

It says a lot about those mid-80s Mariners teams that they busted a guy's ankle (and prematurely ended his career) on a play and still managed to turn a clean single to right into an inning-ending double play.

7/11/85... ANGELS 7TH: Beniquez hit into a double play (right to third) [Carew out at third]

8/2/85... RANGERS 1ST: Harrah hit into a double play (right to first) [McDowell out at second]

9/9/85... TIGERS 2ND: Evans hit into a double play [Herndon out at home (right to catcher)]

9/24/85... (JB in center) RED SOX 3RD: Buckner hit into a double play [Romine scored (unearned), Evans out at third (center to catcher to third)]

9/25/85... RED SOX 11TH: Hoffman hit into a double play [Lyons out at home (right to catcher)]

4/22/86... RANGERS 4TH: Fletcher hit into a double play (right to catcher) [Wilkerson out at home]

5/9/86... MARINERS 4TH: Owen hit into a double play (right to first) [Yeager out at second]

6/24/86... BREWERS 7TH: Moore flied into a double play (right to catcher to pitcher to third) [Gantner out at third]; Gantner left 3b too soon and out on appeal;

7/9/86... (JB in center) MARINERS 4TH: Ramos flied into a double play (center to catcher to
third) [Henderson out at third]; Henderson left 3b too soon and out on appeal; Dick Williams ejected;

7/12/86... ATHLETICS 1ST: Griffin lined into a double play (right to second) [Phillips out at second]

8/2/86... ORIOLES 1ST: Ripken lined into a double play (right to catcher)

9/9/86... YANKEES 5TH (JB has already thrown out Rickey at the plate): Henderson hit into a double play [Skinner out at home (right to catcher)

9/11/86... YANKEES 3RD: Tolleson hit into a double play (right to shortstop) [Henderson out at second, and ya think Rickey was glad to see the end of that series?]

Of those 21 double plays,

1 was on a busted play in which Barfield threw out a runner at the plate and another runner was caught later,

2 times runners were out at the plate on appeal plays for leaving too soon,

7 were on aborted sacrifice flies,

11 were runners doubled off, either trying to advance to second or third, or getting back to base. I guess Bill wasn't quite right. I do know that a lot of Barfield's non-DP assists in those years were guys being tossed out at the plate. I guess that's next.
   46. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 06, 2006 at 03:44 AM (#2168836)
Ichiro!?
   47. jeff angus Posted: September 06, 2006 at 04:07 AM (#2168861)
re:
7/9/85... MARINERS 2ND: Reynolds hit into a double play [Presley out at home (right to catcher)] and then, because he felt he hadn't had enough excitement, MARINERS 3RD: G. Thomas singled to right [Bradley out at home (right to catcher), G. Thomas out at home (catcher to left to catcher)]; Martinez breaks ankle on collision at plate; Thomas takes 3b on throw; Martinez (on ground) throws into lf; Bell throws home and Martinez makes catch and tag while seated.


I was working that game for the wire service...pretty sure it was AP that night, not UPI. A couple of quick memories:

1) Buck Martinez' second putout at the plate one of the most heroic and most extraordinary plays I've ever seen. He was barely motile, but he edged back into a good position to make the play. One has to keep in mind that Gorperson at that stage of his career was not a great baserunner, but he wasn't trying to get tagged -- Martinez just didn't seem to care, like the Black Knight in "Holy Grail", he acted as though it was only a flesh wound and nothing would keep him from that second putout. Great courage. BTW: The throw from Jorge Bell was good, but not brilliant the way Barfield's were.

2) Barfield's two throws were extraordinary accurate ropes. Looked like Reggie Smith out there. Wire service has a Law (from the Protocols of The Elders of Hoboken, perhaps) that defense can NEVER go in the lead. But those two plays were the story of the game...well the first 9 innings at least...and snuffed the M's chances to take a lead. So I flanked their protocol and did something reporters post-1950 aren't really allowed to do and that' give players nicknames. I got "Bazooka" into the wire service bucket as Barfield's nickname. Told the pendejo in NYC office everyone on the team called him that. It's about 2 a.m. in NY, and since I won't back down, they used it. Bazooka hung around for a little while, a few years, before they caught on.
   48. Mike Green Posted: September 06, 2006 at 04:17 PM (#2169209)
Thanks, Chris, for the Barfield data. Maybe it'll inspire me to look at attempts and advancement rates for Clemente and Barfield. All hail retrosheet!
   49. Foghorn Leghorn Posted: September 06, 2006 at 04:30 PM (#2169231)
That's a great story, jeff.

Mike, happy to help, and I'll be putting up the whole database. I'm working with Jim on having it routinely available.
   50. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 06, 2006 at 10:42 PM (#2169862)
Lama, thanks for this.

There won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.
   51. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 06, 2006 at 10:43 PM (#2169864)
Lama, thanks for this.

There won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.
   52. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 06, 2006 at 10:43 PM (#2169866)
Lama, thanks for this.

There won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.
   53. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 06, 2006 at 10:44 PM (#2169867)
oops
   54. Chris Dial Posted: September 07, 2006 at 10:48 PM (#2170884)
So, I got that going for me.
   55. caspian88 Posted: September 10, 2006 at 09:25 PM (#2172901)
Any data on Griffey?
   56. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: September 22, 2006 at 12:55 PM (#2184845)
Chris, if a run saved is worth more than a run earned(like David Gassko suggests, is it possible that ZR is underrating good defenders? IOW is +5 worth more in ZR than it is in batting runs?
   57. Chris Dial Posted: September 22, 2006 at 10:53 PM (#2185471)
GGC,
it is only marginally so, but sure, a +5 firlder is worth slightly more than a +5 hitter.

Oh, I have been saying that and arguing with Szym about it for a decade.
   58. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: September 23, 2006 at 03:43 AM (#2185654)
Thanks, Chris.

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