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Monday, May 19, 2003

May 19, 2003

300 Wins

As the Rocket closes in on the magical 300-win plateau, numbskulls around the Dial are beginning to lament the loss of stud pitchers that can win 300. They harken back to the day of the four-man rotation. Four-man rotation? We’ve had a half-dozen pitchers get 300 wins in the five-man rotation (Carlton, Ryan, Niekro, Perry, Sutton and Seaver) in the last 40 years, and it takes nearly 20 seasons to get 300 wins.

Rank Player           Wins debut  age
1.   Cy Young          511  1890   23
2.   Walter Johnson    417  1907   19
3.   Pete Alexander    373  1911   24
     Christy Mathewson 373  1900   19
5.   Pud Galvin        364  1875   18
6.   Warren Spahn      363  1942   21*
7.   Kid Nichols       361  1890   20
8.   Tim Keefe         342  1880   23
9.   Steve Carlton     329  1965   20
10.  John Clarkson     328  1882   20
11.  Eddie Plank       326  1901   25
12.  Nolan Ryan        324  1966   19
     Don Sutton        324  1966   21
14.  Phil Niekro       318  1964   25
15.  Gaylord Perry     314  1962   23
16.  Tom Seaver        311  1967   22
17.  Charley Radbourn  309  1881   26
18.  Mickey Welch      307  1880   20
19.  Lefty Grove       300  1925   25
     Early Wynn        300  1939   19

300-win pitchers? They have never existed. Since the live-ball era (1920 or so), there are 9 pitchers with 300 wins, and 6 of those got number 300 in the last 20 years. Who in the world do sportswriters think of when they talk about 300-game winners? Spahn and Grove? Oh, the six guys they grew up on, rather than the other 80 years of home run baseball. The 300-game winner is almost a myth.

Before I looked at the debut dates for the 300 Club, I went over the 1970s pitchers to see what went wrong. After I did, I realized I would have to see what went wrong with the 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s as well. The real question is: what went right for the 6 that won 300 from the 60s?

The answer is: the five-man rotation – among other things.

The five–man rotation didn’t move the 300-game winner to the endangered list – it brought him back from the brink of extinction. The five-man rotation allowed pitchers to last longer, in addition to win more. If you have to pitch less often, you go to the mound at less than 100% less often. If you look at the "Innings Pitched" all-time leaders, the five-man rotation era holds its own with ever other 20 year period.

I bounced the idea of the five-man rotation being the reason for 300 wins off Doug Pappas and he replied, "That's a new one." Then he casually noted that the IP leader list is well represented by the latest era. Thanks to Doug's observation, I looked closer at the IP leaders. And sure enough, if you look at the "Innings Pitched" all-time leaders, the five-man rotation era holds its own with every other 20-year period.

Breaking the leaders into 20-year periods - basically 1965-1986, 1936-1964 (longer due to WWII and KC), 1916-1935 and everyone else. I took the IP leaders and those pitchers' win totals to see how many IP they had to throw per win. If the five-man rotation damages win chances, the IP/W should be greater. Well, it isn't.

Era

# Pitchers

IP/W

Who

65-86

23

15.91

Palmer to Glavine

39-64

22

16.08

Feller to Niekro

16-35

14

15.41

Grimes to Leonard

95-15

22

15.64

Orth to Faber

71-94

19

16.30

Mathews to Griffith

Other factors include baseball as a living with no outside occupation, better healthcare, better training, and expansion.

We are seeing this manifested again, with three pitchers debuting in the 1980s approaching 300 wins – Clemens, Maddux and Glavine. Randy Johnson is a huge "maybe", needing 75 wins and already 39. Who knows – so did Niekro. The 1990s have Pedro – halfway home (152) at age 30, Mike Mussina at 182 wins at age 33. Tim Hudson debuted in 1999 and is averaging 16 wins a season. In the 2000s, Hudson’s teammates Barry Zito and Mark Mulder have already gotten to 50 wins at age 25.

All this hand wringing at the 300-game winner’s demise is a sign of ignorance. What’s worse is the thought that the five-man rotation is what ended the hope for 300-game winners. The five-man rotation has given the man life, like a mosquito in a pearl of amber. We haven’t seen the end of the 300-game winner; we’ve only just begun to see them at all.

Pitchers’ Hitting

Is it me, or is the new breed of pitchers better hitters? Mark Prior is an absolute stud at the plate. Woody Williams looks like he can hit – and he can. Darren Oliver and Mike Hampton are known hitters. I think the younger pitchers – at least the American ones, have learned the value of their own ability to hit in helping them win games. I hate the designated hitter (let’s not discuss that here), and I love to watch pitchers bat. Did the Braves pitchers’ hitting and, Odin forbid, the Braves’ announcers, Skip Caray, Ernie Johnson, Sr., and Pete Van Wieren, actually influence the younger guys into thinking they can help themselves by being good hitters? Call me crazy, but I think so.

Chris Dial Posted: May 19, 2003 at 01:00 AM | 18 comment(s)
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   1. Chris Dial Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610953)
There is a problem with looking at GS/W - pitcher usage changed after WWII. Prior to that (and WWII isn't a hard line - just "thereabouts"), star pitchers pitched in relief. A lot. Dennis Eckersley points up this problem too - he started 361 games and pitched in 1071. That's 700 games to get decisions in that "don't count". And right now, the guys close to 300 are barely in decline phase. Their GS/W is going to go up. But GS/W, by groups 1-5:
65+: 2.19
36-: 2.17
16-: 1.86
95-: 1.82
71-: 1.85

The jump comes for pitchers that pitched after WWII - only Feller accumulated a bunch of wins before the War.

In my original dataset, I left Randy Johnson out. Why (other than "because I'm a moron")? He has fewer IP than everyone else. His IP/W is tied for 4th lowest out of these 100 pitchers.

The "lack of decline" is pointed out by "GS/W by debut decade":
80s: 2.05
70s: 2.26
60s: 2.21
50s: 2.21
40s: 2.10
30s: 1.95
20s: 1.85
10s: 1.86
00s: 1.72
90s: 1.87
80s: 1.87
70s: 1.83

It's pretty amazing how consistent the value is, and by the end of the 80s guys careers, they'll be closer to 2.2.
   2. Chris Dial Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610955)
Dang, Jonathan. In comment #1, STL asks about game started (GS) per wins (W). In looking at it, we find the rate is unchanged since the 50s. It increased from the 20s to the 40s because starting pitchers were no longer pitching in relief on their days off. This was very common in the deadball era. That's basically bullpen development. So before WWII, pitchers with 300 wins got quite a few wins in relief. That never happens today, but Eck changed "careers". He got most of his wins as a starter in 361 starts, but still racked up nearly 50 wins as a reliever. So instead of a GS/W of 361/147=2.46, Eck shows up with 361/197=1.83. And so it would be with pre-war pitchers on the list. Gee, those ratios match too!

Also, when a pitcher gets older, but not retired, the number of wins he gets per game start decreases because he isn't as good as he was. Roger Clemens gives up more runs now than he did 10 years ago, so he has to start more times to get the same number of wins (on average).

   3. BillH Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610956)
When was the 4 man rotation the norm. I know some teams used it in the 60's but it seems to me, that with a 4 man rotation in a 162 game season we should see a large number of pitchers with 40 or 41 starts in a season. Between 1961 and 1987 there were 74.

I think there was a lot more use of a 5 day rotation, rather than a 5 man, and I don't understand why more teams don't continue to use that plan, but I don't think the strict 4 man rotation was ever in the majority.
   4. down in durham Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610957)
chris,

i am ussually a big fan of your work, but the point you are trying to make gets kinda muddied here...

as one of the latest posters points out the ceiling on wins per year is much lower now that aces get 5-7 less starts per year. i think that you are trying to say that the decrease in opportunity caused by the 5MR is offset by

1. increased opportunities for wins (via longer careers)
2. decreasing decreases in ability over time (in-season and over-career)

the ip/w ratio doesn't really seem to be helping you make either (any) of the two (three) points.

plus ARGH! this is primer. i thought pitching wins were dead!?!?

should we switch to some other metric to detirmine pitchers' value in 4MR vs 5MR?

sorry i am so cranky. had to attend an obx bachelor party this wknd.
   5. Chris Dial Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610959)
My point is simply that there was no such thing as a 300-game winner. Not since the live ball era. So belly-aching about it by "sportswriters" is a load of ignorance. 300-game winners didn't exist in the 4-man rotation once people could hit the ball out of the ballpark.

Star pitchers are pitching as many innings since the 5-man kicked in (I draw the line in the early 70s for "vogue"). But AFAIK, the 5-man rotation has always been the 5-day rotation. That is a good description by BillH. The 300-G winners from the 60s didn't get 40 starts per season over their careers. Okay, Niekro and his knuckleball would start more often. Seaver *never* started more than 36 games in a season. There would be 3-5 pitchers each season that got more than 36 GS, but not one per team or anything. By 1974, the 5-day rotation was in full use. Rainouts/DHs woulds result in an extra start or two for the aces, but I suspect more starts get "bumped" at the end of the season for stars making the playoffs, Barry Zito notwithstanding.

Today we have 4 guys getting 35 starts and a couple of guys filling in the 5-hole 22 times. That's a "5-day" rotation. In the 4-man, starters would simply go on short rest all the time.

As for why pitcher wins - because it's interesting when players make milestones. Especially HoF defining ones. Bert Blyleven isn't in the HoF because of 13 wins. Tommy John - 12 wins. No, their "value" doesn't change, but 300 wins indicates longevity *and* excellence. And it hasn't been aesthetically devalued yet.
   6. OCF Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610960)
Who are those 20 pitchers with 300 career wins? There are three rather tightly defined groups that account for 17 of the 20:

1. Five of them are 1880's pitchers. All five of them had careers that started between 1879 and 1882, and none of them lasted past 1894. They played a different game than the one we're familiar with.

2. Six of them are dead-ball pitchers. This is the most spread-out group, with careers that start from 1890 (Young and Nichols) to 1911 (Alexander). This group accounts for the top 4 and 5 of the top 6. (Johnson and Alexander pitched on into the 1920's, but the heart of their careers belongs before 1920.)

3. Six of them had careers that started between 1962 and 1967.

There are three exceptions - Lefty Grove, Warren Spahn, and Early Wynn. Roger Clemens is about to be the fourth, and maybe Greg Maddux the fifth.

If you want something that's difficult to explain, explain group 3. Why were the mid-1960's the optimal years for starting a 300-win career?
   7. tangotiger Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610961)
Chris, I think you make an excellent point. If you click the above link, I show the career IP leader total by year of birth. (The drop off starting from around 1969 or so is because they are still expected to be pitching for a few years.)

If you take a 10-year running total (not shown in chart), you get a total of 30,000 IP that peaked in 1938-1947 YOB pitchers. Except for pitchers born of that era, the peak leaders has been pretty stable.

If someone wants to look at this further, I'd suggest looking at say the top 5 career IP by year of birth (to try to smooth things out).

It's possible that pitchers have been getting bigger/stronger/reliable, but that the insistence of the 5-man rotation has cancelled out that gain, so that we are back to the way pitchers were in the "golden age".

It's a great topic Chris! Good job!
   8. Chris Dial Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610962)
OCF - I agree. That's the paragraph in the middle there. I looked at what went wrong with the 70s, when in reality - it was like every other decade. Had Blyleven gotten his 13 more wins, he'd be the "Grove/Spahn". I did look at all of the 70s guys, and strikes and collusion definitely hurt careers. Clemens would already have 300 if it weren't for 1994/95.

What happened with the 62-67 guys? The 5-day rotation (I'm adopting Bill's language - it's a great description). Niekro and Perry were age-exceptions and pitching style longevity guys. But Carlton, Ryan, Sutton and Seaver were all products of fewer starts per season, but *better* starts, increasing their chances at winning each time out, resulting in an equilibrium between starts and likelihood of wiinning a given start. Plus, less tired pitching means less injury. Seaver *never* started more games than guys do today. Never.

And Clemens is a lock and Maddux, IMO, is a slam dunk and Glavine is a layup. Only Randy Johnson is close with extreme prejudice.

Then Mussina and Pedro are picking up the 90s. Since the 5-day rotation, only the 70s are going to be skipped for 300 win pitchers.
   9. OCF Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610963)
Having looked it up, I knew that Seaver never had more than 36 starts in a season. The other 70's 300-game winners all had at least one year of 41 starts (with Niekro topping out at 44). Spahn never had more than 39 starts (and 23 wins) in a season, and Grove never had more than 37 starts in a season, although with all his high-leverage relief work, Grove sometimes had more decisions than starts. Wynn also never had more than 37 starts in a season. (Of course, Grove, Spahn, and Wynn pitched in 154-game seasons.)

Just because you never used to hear about rotator cuffs doesn't mean that pitchers weren't tearing them!
   10. Chris Dial Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610965)
anti-paul,
I looked at that. The answer is not predominantly. Debut age is in the first chart. The asterisk by Spahn is that he pitched when he was 21, then went to war, not returning until he was 25.
   11. Walt Davis Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610970)
Well, count me among the formerly ignorant -- both in terms of not realizing that winning 300 was quite that rare in the live ball era and for not realizing that the number of career starts may not be as hindered by the 5-man rotation (more in a bit) as I thought.

Now it is true that the strict 4-man rotation was fairly rare. But I think looking at the # of 40-41 start seasons is an overly strict way to try to find the 4-man rotations. First, they still used to play a fair number of double-headers in those days, and those always required a spot start. That alone probably accounts for 5-6 starts.

Secondly, much like today, that last spot in the 4-man rotation wasn't always set. To the extent that the 4-man rotation existed, it existed along the lines of your top 2-3 starters getting 38+ starts per season.

Doing a quickie analysis of the Lahman database does show the 60s-70s peak in gs per season. This is the percentage of starters with 36 or more starts (within the population of pitchers with at least 10 starts):

20s 6.6

30s 3.0

40s 2.7

50s 3.9

60s 10.9

70s 14.6

80s 5.2

90s .9

00-01 0

If you look at 38 starts,

20s 2.6

30s 1.0

40s .9

50s 1.3

60s 4.9

70s 7.8

80s 1.2

90s 0

00-01 0

So while it's true that the 4-man rotation isn't a technically accurate name for what was used in the 60s and 70s, there's absolutely no doubt that it was far different than what's done today.

And that brings us back to the '5-man' vs '5-day' rotation. Teams are increasingly moving towards something closer to the 5-man than the 5-day. Now I haven't downloaded the lahman with 2002 data yet, and Glavine did actually make 36 starts last year, it was the first time since Glavine in 96; in the AL no starter has made that many since Erickson in 98. These days a couple guys PER LEAGUE get 35 a year, but most of the league leaders are at 34. Assuming you're the #1 or #2 starter on your team, a strict 5-man rotation would get you 33 starts. So the statement: "Today we have 4 guys getting 35 starts and a couple of guys filling in the 5-hole 22 times" is simply wrong.

Today's teams are very close to a 5-MAN rotation, with the frequent exception of early April.

So the point becomes, assuming that the ratio is still about 2.25 GS per win, at 34 starts per season, a pitcher needs 19.9 completely healthy years of full-time starting to get to the 675 starts necessary to win 300 games (at that rate). Of course, that's only 1.15 seasons longer that if averaging 36 starts per year.

And perhaps more to the point is that neither today's nor yesterday's pitchers manages to average even 34 starts per season. Well Fergie Jenkins, skipping his first 2 years of mostly relieving, averaged 34 starts over his remaining 17 years. But Seaver and Carlton averaged 32 while Maddux and Glavine have averaged 33. So I think Chris's main point still stands.
   12. Chris Dial Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610971)
Joe,
what you say is true, but look at the year before that, and 2000.

Todd,
1. Yes. I was just brief. But even an old starter will go deep as long as he gets people out.
2. From what I have looked at in GS, is health. I think guys are held back much more quickly. "Um, let's move his start back a day". Other than Tony Pena, I know of no other team that thinks they have 5 good starters. The schedule doesn't allow for moving guys easily, and still avoiding short rest. I think we do have the *desire* to go with as few SPs as possible. Having pitchers left alone long enough to do it is the issue.
3. You are right - there were 3-5 *in each league*. My typo. As you note, 36-37 starts is easily doable in the present rotation set-up (Maddux had 37 in '91).
4. I wasn't being dishonest. I looked at all of them. If 37 starts is the number that a 4+1 rotation (5-day) gets, the number of starts >37 for each guy is small. Ryan had 4 in 26 years. Carlton was a real stud, and fought a decreased workload, getting 38 starts as late as 1982. Niekro and Perry are actually included in the other subset (pre-65), but both worked through the 70s by throwing slop. I mean, 44 starts? Seaver *never* made 37 starts. Sutton had 4, but none in his last 14 seasons. 1974 is a pretty harsh demarcation for 40 starts for non-knuckleballers.
6. I have Diamond Mind. I read it before any of the Abstracts.

Thanks, Todd. Good points of clarification. I'll stick with this: The 300-game winner will exist due to the present day workload (or that of 1986-2000).

   13. David Brazeal Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610972)
Other than Tony Pena, I know of no other team that thinks they have 5 good starters.

Chris, this is completely unfair to Tony Pena. You're piling on. He never said he thinks the Royals have five good starters. He thinks the Royals have six good starters.
   14. Chris Dial Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610973)
Um, what Walt said.

I certainly see that my 4x35 was wrong and over-eager. I think it is what team's should do. I also believe it is what they want to do. I take that back - since I am reading "Moneyball", which is fine so far, but hardly amazing to me, I think teams want 3x35 and fill the other 60 games with their best performers - not injured, hot-hands what-have-you.
   15. OCF Posted: May 18, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610982)
Warren Corbett -
You're missing Chris's main point, when you say that "today's" pitchers will find it difficult to win 300. It IS difficult to win 300, and that hasn't changed since 1920, except maybe for that blip of guys peaking in the 70's. You cite the age of winning 300 games for three deadball guys. These guys had busiest seasons with well over 40 starts and over 50 appearances (assume their relief appearances were high-leverage), and they all had seasons in which they had 33 or more wins. But that was 80+ years ago, in a game with few HR. Check out the three pitchers who made it to 300 in the 50 years in between 1920 and 1970 - how old were they when they won 300? Grove was 41, Spahn was 39, and Wynn was 43. In the cases of Grove and Wynn, it was the very end of their careers, and in Wynn's case the only game he won that year.
   16. Robert Dudek Posted: May 19, 2003 at 10:07 PM (#610986)
Isn't it interesting that the great rush of 300 game winners started their careers in the 60s and were in their prime in the 70s, when giving 38+ starts a year to your best pitcher was the norm.

It wasn't the 5-man rotation, but making sure you skipped the back end of your rotation to get your ace some extra work when you had the chance. Occasionally, that would involve pitching your ace on 3 days rest, so that his 5th day wasn't an off day.

Bring back the 5 DAY rotation!

   17. Chris Dial Posted: May 19, 2003 at 10:08 PM (#611013)
Todd, you left out your name 8)
I didn't 8really* think you thought that. That's a common USENET word that just requires clarification. There aren't expressions, nor "tone", so we shouldn't take offense (real offense anyway). None taken, here, just clarifying. I really appreciated your points and observation. I apologize if my response read tersely.

But back to Carlton - yes, decline phase will hurt all these pitchers - maybe. Clemens may well get 305 this season and hang them up, with no real decline phase.

I know Perry had a lot of gas, but he went to the wet stuff after his first 12-14 seasons (which got him to 1974-76). He was a great pitcher, and didn't "leak" into the Hall or 300 wins. As a side note, his son Jack went to Pfeiffer College here in NC. He was 67'8" and pitched and played basketball. Gaylord was on campus quite a bit.

Thanks again for the input - that's what makes research fun.
   18. Walt Davis Posted: May 20, 2003 at 10:08 PM (#611047)
Walt, what years did you remove from Carlton's career to get an average of 32 GS? Not sure how you did that.

I took out his first 2 years. That left him with 698 starts over 22 seasons or 31.7 per season. I wasn't going for his "peak". I guess it is unfair to include his last season, so 697 starts in 21 seasons is 33 starts.

Of course, those averages include the strike years of '81,'94,&'95, as well as the decline phases of the retired pitchers.

Sure, but the average annual GS of Maddux, Glavine, et al are going to be as or more effected by strikes, though they're not yet in their decline phases.

The best pitchers from the 65-86 era did start 2-4 more games per year in their prime than do Maddux, Glavine, et al.

Yes, I know, that's what the data I presented shows. But they did that sometimes. Carlton had 7 seasons with more than 36 starts but also 7 seasons with less than 34 starts. Maddux has had 1 over 36 and 5 under 34, 2 of those strike years.

I didn't expect to find these numbers to be so close, and maybe it was just the luck of who I checked. But it's consistent with Chris' finding.

Now, it could be that current usage patterns will allow pitchers to pitch longer and thus average nearly the same number of GS per year.

Right, that might well be what's going on. From 67-75, Fergie never started fewer than 36 games (and that was because of the 72 strike), with a peak of 42. In his remaining 8 years, he exceeded 30 starts just twice.

So yes, at their peak, today's top pitchers are making fewer starts than the top pitchers of the 60s and 70s did; but it seems that they're making more starts in their post-peak seasons and/or staying healthier and pitching more full seasons. It's just a few pitchers, but maybe it all balances out such that a guy good enough to be a starter for 18-20 years now gets as many starts in his career as a guy good enough to be a starter for 18-20 years then.
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