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Monday, January 26, 2004

January 26, 2004

Team Defense

I hate the phrase "team defense." There’s no such thing. A few plays such as the double play and relay throws are team-dependant, but other than that, defense is just like hitting – one ball in play, one man making a play on it. It is the next step in baseball’s majestic mano a mano confrontations – pitcher-batter, batter-fielder. DER is a nice baseline, but it’s very rough as a descriptive statistic and very few conclusions should be drawn from it.

Gold Gloves

People hate the Gold Glove Awards. Dan Szymborski is fond of saying that it is easier to win the GG twice than it is to win it once and there is a good bit of truth to that. GGs usually begin rewarding a player a year or two after he’s has deserved one and stop giving it to him a year or two after he’s deserved it.

I agree with some of that sentiment, but once the GGs find a good player, he gets rewarded. I would also submit that the accuracy of our defensive measurements should allow for a guy who has been historically strong to win over a player whose season appears to be better than said glove star.

Reconciliation

The team that leads in DER must have good fielders, right? The team that has average DER must have average fielders, right? The team that trails in DER must have poor fielders, right?

No, no, and no. The team that leads in DER may have allowed a ton of fly balls or just lucky ball-in-play distribution. The team that trails in DER may have given up a ton of line drives. The team around average may have had just the wrong mix.

The St. Louis Cardinals stumbled home with a slightly above league average DER. They also won four GGs. Okay, one was catcher, and that doesn’t go much into a team’s DER. What’s more, there is very little dispute about Scott Rolen’s defense, Edgar Renteria’s defense, or Jim Edmonds’ defense. The shortstop, the second baseman, and the center fielder have significantly more defensive chances than any of the other positions. The third baseman has a reasonable number (in the 300s as opposed to the 500s)

So what does that mean? How does a pedestrian defensive "team" warrant half of the non-pitcher GGs? Answer: DER ignores chance distribution.

Dave Studemund’s data helps me to look at the individual pitchers:

Player

Team

ERA

IP

DER

GB/FBip

stephenson,garr

STL

4.59

174.3

0.750

0.83

morris,matt

STL

3.76

172.3

0.723

1.63

williams,woody

STL

3.87

220.7

0.707

1.05

simontacchi,jas

STL

5.56

126.3

0.688

1.50

tomko,brett

STL

5.28

202.7

0.685

1.64

DER is the defensive efficiency rating for that pitcher, in the simplest form: IP-K divided by IP-K+H-HR.

GB/FBip is the ratio of ground balls to fly balls in play (home runs subtracted from fly balls).

Notice in the table that there are several things at work: high ERA, high FB rate, good DER; low ERA, high GB rate, good DER; low ERA, low GB rate, average DER; high ERA, high GB rate, bad DER.

So which is it? Are the Cardinal defenders just having good days behind Stephenson? Do they all show up sick behind Simontacchi and Tomko?

Probably neither – the balls are distributed when those guys pitch in a manner to maximize or minimize their DER.

What I suspect is the issue is the line drive rate. Simontacchi and Tomko are probably their own worst enemy, allowing line drives for hits at a higher than league average rate – or at least than they as GB pitchers should (GB pitchers should allow less than average number of line drives because of the GB thing…). And when Stephenson could keep the ball in the yard (he allowed 30 home runs in those IP), he wasn’t giving up line drives, relative to what you’d expect a severe fly ball pitcher to allow.

I looked at the pitchers’ ball in play distribution at www.tendu.net. As ground ball pitchers, Simontacchi and Tomko both allowed a lower percentage of line drives than fly ball pitcher Stephenson.

What was even more interesting was the absolute abuse Brett Tomko took at the hands of his infield defense. Based on the hit distribution, it appears that the St. Louis third basemen and shortstops "pinched" the hole. Tomko gave up a relatively high number of balls down the left field line for hits, and according to the zone in which the balls were hit, they could have been fielded. The data indicated they were hard hit grounders, but the bunching wasn’t right down the line and there were very few hits in the hole. It is also very apparent the shortstop was missing a good number of plays up the middle, but still very playable for most shortstops.

My suspicion for Tomko went, not just unconfirmed, but essentially refuted. Without more specific data (I could watch all of Tomko’s games on MLB, but I’m not going to – it’s Brett Tomko and the frickin’ Cardinals), I’d have to say Tomko had one of two issues – his defense played poorly behind him, or the balls were just hit too hard to be fielded by even the best infielders.

Simontacchi did allow more line drive hits, but his sample is also smaller.

So?

Mike Emeigh has pointed out to me that fly balls are turned into outs about 80% of the time. Ground balls are turned into outs about 50% of the time [75% of the time - ed.] and line drives about 20% of the time. I think those are the rates… Mike has also being doing some interesting work with line drive percentages – particularly with the NL Central.

Pitchers that throw mostly fly balls allow more home runs, and get more outs on balls in play. At least that is my theory. Have a pitching staff that throws fly balls and thus have a team with a better DER.

I have not run a massive study on this but I’m going to lean towards DER overrating the defensive play of teams that throw an atypical number of fly balls and vice versa. Here’s more from www.baseballgraphs.com.

I glanced at 2003 DER/GBFBip data, and it was largely inconclusive, as one season of anything can often be (AL correlation very high, NL correlation negative). This will result in several other things: the outfielders for those teams get more chances and those OF will get better reputations, and those OF will win GGs.

Which brings me to: DER is like batting average – you need to know the distribution of the balls in play to determine the quality of the performance.

Chris Dial Posted: January 26, 2004 at 12:00 AM | 30 comment(s)
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   1. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: January 25, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614490)
Has there been research showing whether pitchers effect the proportion of balls hit off them that are line drives? If they can, doesn't that refute DIPS altogether?
   2. Srul Itza Posted: January 25, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614492)
Chris -- I agree that DER is a very weak sister among the new defensive measurements. But I think that defense is a little more team dependent than you suggest, and the example you give may show why (if I understand it).

One of the aspects of defense that is or should be team dependent is positioning. You have your guys play more toward the holes, and you give up something down the lines, and vice versa. The actual effects will, as you note, be depending on the type and direction of hits the pitcher gives up.

Theoretically, pitchers should be pitching to the strength of their defense -- if you are playing a guy to pull, and then give him outside stuff he is likely to take the other way, you may be defeating the whole purpose of a shift.

I am frankly still very much on the fence about defensive metrics. It is one of the areas where baseball suffers the same problems that the more team-oriented sports do in devising metrics -- you are trying to measure so many different things at once, that it is difficult to isolate relevant factors to measure.

I sort of assumed that the purpose of DER was to determine how much help the pitcher is getting from his defense as a whole, but you can never quite get the pitcher out of the equation.
   3. Chris Dial Posted: January 25, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614494)
David,
you may be right - I'm getting old. I think it was 50%, but it may be lower.

Srul,
positioning is a point where defense researchers differ. Note I said both StL infielders pinch the hole. That's not "team" - either way, only one of those guys is going to get the ball.

I understand what you are saying, and I am in the camp that says very rarely does where the 3B stand affect where the SS stands. They each shift according to the batter (very slightly), but (outside of the Bonds shift) infielders and outfielders tend to position themselves as a function of the batter/scouting report, not each other.

Rolen and Renteria each stand where they think they have the best chance of making a play (within the natural confines of their position). Renteria doesn't care that Rolen is a step toward the hole, nor vice versa, just that each stands where *he* thinks he can make the next play.

Sure, the team may position itself to maximize outs, but all the teams do it the same - I think that nullifies that aspect of it as a "team" in terms of defining which team does it better. Did that make sense?

Matt, tendu isn't publicly available yet, afaik, I am just reviewing the software for them - with minimal permission to reference it.
   4. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 25, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614496)
But I thought the out% on GB was like 75% instead of 50%--a huge difference.

Chris E-mailed me last night before this came out, but I didn't have a chance to respond before it got published - I'm working on something else at the moment, trying to take advantage of the free time I got because we were closed by the weather today.

In 2003, ground balls were converted into outs 73.6% of the time. The Cardinal infielders were about average at converting them into outs; their rate was 73.4%. Atlanta was the best; the Mets were the worst. There tends to be a lot more variance in GB out rates than in FB out rates.

The fly ball out percentage was 87.2%; the line drive out percentage was 27.2%. Those percentages aren't terribly different from what I've seen in past seasons, maybe a bit higher than usual.

As far as pitchers being able to affect LD frequency, the effect appears to be limited to the high end of the scale, from what I can tell - Glendon Rusch is my poster boy for this. There are a handful of guys like Rusch who will have high BABIP, and the pure DIPS proponents will treat them as being unlucky and candidates for improvement - but they aren't, because they just cannot keep the hitters from driving the ball hard. There are no pitchers that I have been able to find who consistently have *low* LD totals as a percentage of BIP.

-- MWE
   5. Chris Dial Posted: January 25, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614497)
Mike,
I apologize for my hair trigger finger. Especially once I knew your work was closed.

Don't know why my brain cramp went to 50%.

Thanks, David, and Mike.

FWIW Mike, Studes graph shows a jump in DER the last couple of seasons.
   6. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 25, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614498)
Has there been research showing whether pitchers effect the proportion of balls hit off them that are line drives? If they can, doesn't that refute DIPS altogether?

Not exactly.

The population of pitchers from which DIPS was originally derived are those who showed an ability to hang around for a while - Voros compared pitchers who pitched starters' innings in two consecutive seasons. A pitcher who *didn't* have the ability to hang around for a while wasn't going to show up in Voros's study. Specifically, a pitcher who doesn't have the ability to prevent a hitter from hitting the ball *hard* a significant fraction of the time is rarely going to see more than a handful of innings. There is a certain point - something above 25% of BIP being line drives - where a pitcher just can't survive in the majors. Occasionally, when a team has few other good alternatives, you'll see one of these pitchers get significant innings (like Glendon Rusch in 2003). But it doesn't happen often, and the guy is usually gone fairly quickly.

Once you get into the range where most pitchers live - 18% to 23% of BIP being line drives - there is usually little year-to-year correlation among pitchers for LD as a percentage of BIP, and there is usually little year-to-year correlation among pitchers in the percentage of LD turned into outs - which goes a long way toward explaining why there is little year-to-year correlation among pitchers in BABIP.

-- MWE
   7. Jon Daly Posted: January 26, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614505)
Interesting stuff.

From Mike Emeigh: Once you get into the range where most pitchers live - 18% to 23% of BIP being line drives - there is usually little year-to-year correlation among pitchers for LD as a percentage of BIP, and there is usually little year-to-year correlation among pitchers in the percentage of LD turned into outs - which goes a long way toward explaining why there is little year-to-year correlation among pitchers in BABIP.

Are there any pitchers who serve up <18% line drives? How do their BABIP stats look?

   8. tangotiger Posted: January 26, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614507)
Great stuff Mike!

I would think that if you would do a LD analysis, that you might want to first consider including HR, at least in the denominator. After all, what's harder hit that a HR?

So, how about a "percentage of hard hit balls"? (HR+LD)/(AB-SO)



   9. Chris Dial Posted: January 26, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614510)
Mike, thanks even more.

Brian P.,
that's some pretty good observbations you make - want a job? ;-)
You are correct in that Rolen had a "down" year and he wasn't *the* best gloveman this past season, but was still very good. I also didn't think Renteria was the best, but the general perception is that he is good. Edmonds lost time is also a big factor, but you can see some pitchers weren't as "affected" by his abcense. That's what is key here - the StL "appear" to have gotten significantly different defensive support, when in reality, it is mostly about the BIP type and location, which we know the pitcher doesn't control very much.

If your comments are solely/primarily from watching games, color me impressed - that's a good skill.
   10. mike green Posted: January 26, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614512)
Mike Emeigh,

Your information suggests that there should be a formula for pitcher's runs prevented with the same degree of accuracy that the various measures of runs created have. But, for now if a pitcher's line showed batters faced, K rate, W rate, LD rate, HR rate, pop-up rate, GB rate and FB rate, wouldn't that tell you all you really need to know about the pitcher? From the rate info, you could generate expected opposition OBP and expected opposition slug. To the extent that actual opposition OBP and opposition slug differs from the expected, wouldn't it be reasonable to attribute this to the defence, rather than the pitching?

It also seems to me that this information should lead to a consensus about the split between pitching and defence in the runs prevention analysis.
   11. Chris Dial Posted: January 26, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614515)
Mike Green,
I believe Mike E and I have had a similar discussion somewhere on this site.

We (presently) don't know how stable an individual's LD rate is (I think).

Excellent point.
   12. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 26, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614517)
48% of BIP in 2003 were ground balls, 33% were fly balls, 19% were line drives.

Don't forget that $H is NOT the inverse of plays made per BIP, because of errors. $H was .291 for 2003, but the overall PM percentage on BIP was .694.

-- MWE
   13. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 26, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614519)
The LD percentage on BIP in the majors was, as I indicated earlier, 19%. The standard deviation of the LD percentage, for pitchers with 300 or more BIP, is roughly 2.5%.

There were 24 pitchers in the majors in 2003 with at least 300 BIP who allowed 16.5% or fewer line drives (1 SD or more less than the league average) as a percentage of BIP. The list as a whole includes very good pitchers (Pedro, Hudson, Halladay, Derek Lowe), knuckleballers (Wakefield and Sparks - people have speculated that the knuckleballer's advantage in DIPS might be related to the difficulty of hitting a good knuckler solidly), and some guys you might not know much about (Jon Garland, Jeremi Gonzalez, Billy Traber). These 24 pitchers, as a group, had a $H of .282 and a DER of .703, allwoing line drives on 15.6% of BIP. When you remove the line drives from their totals, the 24 pitchers, as a group, had a $H of .195 and a DER of .788, with a GB/FB ratio of 1.60.

There were 22 pitchers in the majors who allowed 21.5% or more LD asa percentage of balls in play (1 SD or more greater than the league average). This groups includes Simontacchi and Stephenson, along with LD poster boy Glendon Rusch, and some names you might not expect to be in this group (David Wells, Ted Lilly, Randy Wolf, and even Randy Johnson). These 22 pitchers, as a group, had a $H of .310 and a DER of .674. When you remove the line drives, though, these 22 pitchers, as a group, had a $H of .187 and a DER of .793. They allowed more fly balls than the low-LD group (1.44 GB/FB ratio), which provides most of the explanation as to why their $H is lower and DER is higher.

I should note that both groups contained some extreme GB pitchers (Brett Myers and Jose Jimenez were in the high-LD group, for example) and some extreme FB pitchers (Johan Santana and Jeremi Gonzalez were in the low-LD group, for example), and that the overall relationship between G/F ratio and LD percentage, while showing a tendency for GB pitchers to give up a lower LD%, is weak (r = -.14 between G/F ratio with LD not included and LD percentage). You can't assume that a GB pitcher will allow fewer LD/BIP than a fly ball pitcher.

Stephenson's good DER against, in spite of being hit relatively hard, is primarily because he was an extreme FB pitcher, and the Cardinals have very good outfield defense (Pujols, in particular, is a lot better defensively in the OF than his reputation suggests).

-- MWE
   14. MGL Posted: January 27, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614526)
Good discussion! A couple of quick things...

As Mike and several others have stated, a pitcher's line drive % appears to be "skill oriented" although as he also stated, that is difficult to research because of the sever selective sampling issues. A pitcher's line drive out % (% of outs per LD), however, appears to be random, which makes sense.

So if you want to do a line drive DIPS (LDIPS) for pitchers - you need PBP dat for this - you would substitute a league average LD out % for a pitcher's actual LD out %. This basically eliminates the luck associated with whether line drives get hit right 'at em or not. You can probably do something similar for bloop hits, but you would probably want more detailed PBP for that (at least have someone score the hit as "should not have been a hit, but for luck").

A batter's LD out %, on th other hand, is very much a function of his skill (how hard he hits the ball overall). Strong power hitters have a much lower LD out % than weaker hitters. Also worthy of note, although on a different topic, is that when a ground ball batter faces a fly ball pitchre and vice versa, more LD's are produced, which also makes sense!

I did research on LD stuff a while ago, so this is all from memory!
   15. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 27, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614541)
With this discussion of what could be DIPS 3.0, where do you get PBP data? Or even just LD/FB/GB breakdowns?

You can get PBP data from a variety of sources, but realize that (a) those sources often contradict; one man's line drive is another man's fly ball (or on occasion, ground ball) and (b) those sources also have errors in the data. MLB.com, for example, had one scorer in Houston who scored every hit as a ground ball. There's a lot of vetting of the data that needs to be done, and while the online MLB game archives (audio and video) help, there are still some ambiguities. When MLB.com starts providing the information mentioned in the Alan Schwarz article, that will help immensely.

I collect as much of the online PBP data as I can from MLB.com, baseballdirect.com (the STATS site), ESPN.com, CBS Sportsline, and foxsports.com - then I use the audio and video archives to resolve discrepancies. But I certainly haven't vetted *every* play. I uploaded my PBP files to Ray Kerby's Yahoo group (stats_software), and I assume that some of the folks there will do some checking as well.

Ideally, we'd buy detailed data from STATS - but other than for the (apparently) independently wealthy MGL, the cost of doing so is not within any of our abilities to pay.

-- MWE
   16. studes Posted: January 27, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#614543)
This goes against the grain of everything Chris is saying, but I decided to derive a fun stat: historic team-based DER+. I took the DER of every team in history and compared it to the league average of that year. I did not adjust for ballpark, so there are obviously huge holes in the analysis, let alone Chris's point that DER is a specious tool for evaluating fielders.

However, grant me one paragraph of hyperbole, and I will say that the 1999 Reds were the greatest fielding team in NL history. They had the highest DER+ in league history, and other evidence kind of supports my hyperbole. 1999 was the year of Pokey Reese's phenomenal year at second, I think. And it was the one year the Reds had Mike Cameron in center. Plus Larkin, Boone at third, etc.

The highest DER+ on major league history belongs to the 1939 Yankees, though someone on Primer wrote a great article re: Yankee Stadium as a fielder's ballpark. Was that Mike? Dan Werr?

If you want to validate fielding greatness by saying that a team must have consecutive years of DER+ to qualify, then I think you might not be wrong saying that the two best fielding teams of all time were the 1905/1906 Cubs (third and fourth highest all time DER+ in the NL) and the 1969/1970 Mets (6th and 13th highest).
   17. Chris Dial Posted: January 28, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614546)
studes,
heck, that's good grain, there.

Many arguments are held that "over time" the good fielders will shine for "misleading" stats, like DER or RF. This is particularly an argument to say Ozzie or Mazeroski (sorry, Mike) were great fielders. I'll always disagree with that. Why? See NHBA re: Nap Lajoie. I disagree with BJ's assessment, but his point is very important - we don't know if Nap was great or if he took all the discretionary plays (or as BJ simply refuses to acknowledge, BIP distribution isn't "even") - now BJ assumes he did, and marks him down. We *know* Andruw Jones takes the discretionary plays - we watch it, but BJ does not mark him down. As silly as it sounds, I think anectdotal evidence is as good as RF for evaluating the actual skill level of a player for which we do not have real pbp-type data. I have just seen too many wrong answers in the subset where we do have data to accept RF as anything of value.

As for your hyperbole, I think I can support it. I have my ZR analysis around here somewhere, and I'll check the Reds. Reese was ungodly that season, that's for sure.

OTOH, just because DER+ got it right, doesn't mean DER+ "gets it right". Had my 21-month old daughter said "99 Reds", she wouldn't really be the evaluation system we'd use. FWIW, she does identify the Mets as Dada's team.

But I can support the 99 Reds as one of the great defensive teams.
   18. studes Posted: January 28, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614548)
Pretty much agree, Chris. One caveat: I do think that if you park-adjusted these figures and you look for teams that ranked highly two years in a row, you could pretty safely say that those teams had some great fielders.

The one thing I didn't realize was how "good" the Mets' non-FIP defense was in 1969. I had always assumed that their pitchers were key, but that's not quite right. They ranked sixth in the league in FIP in 1969. I mean, their pitching was great and all, but others were better. Their DER, meanwhile, was way better than the league. Miracle Mets, indeed.

OTOH, they repeated their great DER in 1970, so maybe they really were that good (we know that Tommie Agee was awesome, right?). (Be sure to insert park factor caveat at appropriate spot in sentence.)
   19. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 28, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614550)
Mazeroski's fielding rep, FWIW, is based primarily on his DP skills. There's little doubt he was great there, but once you account for that (as best you can without PBP data) his other stats are good-but-not-dominant. Hopefully, some of Mazeroski's seasons will start showing up on Retrosheet soon.

The Reds have had very good defense for at least the last six years, with '99 clearly their best season. The quality of the defense was hidden to some extent last year because the pitchers were about as bad as you'd ever want to see, but they were still well above league norms in both GBO% and FBO%.

-- MWE
   20. Chris Dial Posted: January 28, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614552)
Gasp! Mike! I have been saying that about Maz for nearly 6 years, and no one has ever (other than yourself) acknowledged - okay, I'm sure Ron Johnson.

I have said it elsewhere, and I think it bears repeating; Bret Boone may be the best defensive 2B ever. His DP skills are downright scary. With Maz' DP rates, I can believe he was fiercesome.

Studes, I think where you and I are disconnecting is that the defense may or may not have been "good" but rather that the BIP distribution was favorable - we haven't actually determined if that is counter to DIPS or not, or just random fluctuation.

Yes, the Mets had good defensive players (Swoboda, Agee, Weis), but "best ever" is a little iffy. Of course, I am basing that assessment on anecdote and what I've seen - which can be incorrect - but it is my understanding.
   21. studes Posted: January 28, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614553)
Well, I'm assuming that two years worth of BIP distribution for an entire team ought to smooth out. Of course, I haven't created any analyses to prove that. And I'm saying nothing of analyzing individual players, other than looking at the best fielders on the best teams.

My Mets comments are hyperbolic, too. I'm just having fun saying them.
   22. tangotiger Posted: January 28, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614555)
According to UZR, from 1999-2003, here are the best and worst fielding teams:


year team UZRRuns
2002 ANA 103
1999 CIN 89
2001 SEA 85
2003 SEA 78
2000 KCA 60
...
2000 PIT -72
1999 COL -78
2000 MIN -85
2003 NYA -98
1999 TBA -125
</PRE>

Remember, this is performance and not "true talent".

The 1999 CIN team had: Pokey Reese, Mike Cameron, and Aaron Boone. They also got good production from Hammonds and Larkin. They really didn't have any bad fielders. Their worst fielder was Sean Casey, who apparently might have improved his fielding.
   23. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 28, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614563)
Well, I'm assuming that two years worth of BIP distribution for an entire team ought to smooth out. Of course, I haven't created any analyses to prove that.

If the composition of the pitching staff doesn't change, BIP distribution isn't likely to change much, either. As I noted in the Jeter series, the Yankees from 1998-2000 had extreme right-side skews in each of those three seasons.

The direction of balls in play is primarily a function of the handedness of the hitter and the type of ball in play. Ground balls are generally pulled, while fly balls are generally hit in the opposite direction. Because left-handed pitchers in the platoon era face many fewer LH hitters as a percentage of batters faced than RH pitchers do, it's generally true that the more lefty pitchers you have:

-- the more righty hitters you face;
-- the more the GBIP distribution will be skewed toward the left side of the infield; and
-- the more the FBIP distribution will be skewed toward RF.

If LD rate is reflective of pitcher skill as well (and I'm inclined to agree with MGL that it is), that's another component of the DER that is unlikely to change from year to year.

FIP and DIPS are (at the moment) quick-and-dirty ways to separate out the effects of pitching from the effects of defense. As I've written before, FIP sets an absolute lower bound for the percentage of run prevention that is the responsibility of the pitcher; the pitcher cannot be responsible for anything less that runs prevented as measured by his FIP. The pitcher almost certainly contributes something to the DIPS portion (or maybe better FDP, for fielder-dependent pitching) as well - Clay Davenport used a 70/30 defense/pitching split in his method, largely because that kept the top pitchers ranked in the vicinity of the top position players over all of baseball history, rather than overranking 19th century pitchers (which Win Shares definitely does) and undervaluing today's pitchers (which some people believe Win Shares also does).

-- MWE
   24. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 28, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614564)
So, the 2003 Yankees had an awful defence, but still won 103 games. This is evidence to support the fact that a great defence just isn't very important. If it is, then Pettite, Mussina, 40 Rocket, and co. should be considered all-time greats.

The Yankees:

-- walked only 375 hitters, the lowest total in the AL. Except for the Twins (402), no one else was within 90 of that total.
-- hit 49 batters, also the lowest total in the AL.
-- struck out 1119 hitters, the second highest total (to Boston) in the AL. Except for Boston, no one else was within 60 of that total.
-- allowed 145 HRs, the second-lowest total (to Oakland) in the AL.

The Yankees blew everyone away in fielding-independent stats, but finished just third in ERA. Seattle gave up 28 more HR, 91 more walks, hit five more batters, and fanned 118 fewer hitters - and had a team ERA that was a third of a run better than the Yankees.

The Yankees' 2003 performance is not evidence that supports the fact that a great defense isn't very important. What it is, is evidence that supports the fact that without great defense your pitchers better take as much of the burden on themselves as they can. If the Yankees aren't near the top of the league in the fielding-indpendent categories, their pitching is going to crash - and everyone's going to wonder what happened.

-- MWE
   25. studes Posted: January 28, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614566)
Mike, you might be interested in what I did with DER and FIP to allocate fielding and pitching in my most recent Win Shares article. Link is above.
   26. studes Posted: January 28, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614567)
Tango, just FYI, here is the DER+ for each of those teams. Again, this is just for kicks.

2002 ANA 103%
1999 CIN 105%
2001 SEA 104%
2000 KCA 101%

++++

2000 PIT 98%
1999 COL 97%
2000 MIN 98%
1999 TBA 98%

I don't have the 2003 nums, cause I used Lahman.
   27. Sam M. Posted: January 29, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614572)
Yes, the Mets had good defensive players (Swoboda, Agee, Weis), but "best ever" is a little iffy. Of course, I am basing that assessment on anecdote and what I've seen - which can be incorrect - but it is my understanding.

I don't know about "best ever," either. But besides the players mentioned by Chris, they also had Grote, who was a terrific defensive catcher, and Harrelson, who was all that at shortstop. It was a great fielding club, no doubt about it.

There's no doubt that club was the true example of a Mets' club built on pitching and defense. It's a myth that the mid-80s team was built that way -- pitching, yes, but they were mediocre defensively (other than the splendid Keith Hernandez, of course).
   28. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 30, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614574)
I don't know about "best ever," either. But besides the players mentioned by Chris, they also had Grote, who was a terrific defensive catcher, and Harrelson, who was all that at shortstop. It was a great fielding club, no doubt about it.

Those 1969 Mets led the league in DER with .731 (league average was .700) and in $H with .253 (league average was .280). They had a .012 lead in DER and a .013 lead in $H over the second-best team (Atlanta). Retrosheet's data doesn't identify batted ball types on enough BIP for me to accurately estimate GB/FB/LD percentages, and the data is not park-adjusted, but I think it'd be difficult to argue based on the size of the DER and $H lead that the '69 Mets were not clearly the best defensive team in the NL.

I should note that when I calculate DER and $H from PBP data I exclude bunts, because the vast majority of bunts are outs and the number of bunts against teams are generally not distributed evenly because the decision as to whether or not to bunt is a matter of team philosophy, thus including bunts can penalize or reward teams (IMO) unfairly.

-- MWE
   29. studes Posted: February 02, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#614585)
Tom, I'm an old graybeard myself (literally!) and I have to disagree with you. I think I watched over half the Mets' games in 1969, and I routinely thrilled to their fielding. I still remember balls being hit deep in the hole, and Bob Murphy would say, "it's in the hole, Harrelson will get it and throw the runner out" before the play was halfway over. We took their exceptional fielding for granted.

You're right in some of your assessments, but I think you're underestimating the impact a couple of great fielders at short and in center can have.

Look at the 1999 Reds as an example. They had two exemplary fielders on that team, Cameron and Reese, and some other very good fielders, and they look like one of the best fielding teams of recent times.

The analogy with the Mets applies to Harrelson and Agee, who were spectacular in 1969. It wouldn't surprise me if their UZR stats were similar to Cameron and Reese.

The Mets' FIP was sixth in the league in 1969. Their DER was first.
   30. Chris Dial Posted: February 05, 2004 at 11:08 PM (#614605)
Sandy,
thanks for the comments. I've got good news there is some considerable work doing just what you suggest - converting outs into hits. Myself, Sherri Nichols and MGL have done these things in various systems using zone rating. Michael Humphries, Charlie Saeger and Clay Davenport have done something similar from traditional fielding stats as well.

Try looking here for a synopsis of work already performed - you certainly don't want to re-invent the wheel, but you may be able to build a better mousetrap.

Glad you found your way to Primer, and look forward to your contributions on the defensive analysis threads!
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