December 28, 2004
Just how good will Adrian Beltre be?
I was discussing the quality of Beltre’s signing in the Primer Chat the other night with Dan Werr. Werr is a Mariners fan, and of course, thought the signing was good. I think otherwise. So we made a friendly wager – the loser donating a sum to the continued operation of Baseball-Reference. I have less than or equal to a 109 OPS+, his present career average. Dan has any OPS+ above that. Leaving the contract money mostly aside (5 years, $65 million - you’ll have to get Studes to help with Fair Market Value) is Beltre the hot free agent he is rumored to be?
Werr isn’t alone in M-world loving the Beltre signing. David Cameron considers it one of the best signings of the off-season, as he ranks them at USS Mariner. Derek Zumsteg is equally pleased in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.
Let me state that most people (not the ones above) are measuring Beltre’s quality by the enormous output at the plate in 2004. Beltre hit 48 home runs and drove in a ton of runs, while hitting .338. All of that was done in a home park that depresses offensive numbers.
Beltre has been in the majors since he was 19, and has been touted as a great thing. His age 20 season, he posted a 100 OPS+. He improved on that in his age-21 season with a 116 OPS+. Suddenly Beltre, who was anticipated as a superstar, was ready to take it to the next level.
During the off-season (January 2001), Beltre had an emergency appendectomy that was nearly fatal. I’m not sure how much that affected his numbers, but his next season, he fell to a 93 OPS+. He had more than 500 plate appearances, so while I am sure he was weakened, he seemed to hit okay. His ISO was down only slightly. What was down was his batting average and his walk rate. It is reasonable to think that he was concerned for his job, and pressed a little at the plate. After all, he was 22, and coming off an injury. The next season, his age 23 season, he should have been healthy as it was 15 months since the surgery before the next season, and Beltre showed some improvement. His BA fell, but his ISO climbed 20 points. His walk rate was still below average. He posted a 98 OPS+. Then he posted an 89 OPS+. These were his “formative years”, when predictions for his step forward were common. He actually had improved his ISO to where it was in his age-21 season - ~0.185.
Then in 2004, Beltre went bonkers. He raised all his numbers dramatically, posting a 163 OPS+ in his walk year. His ISO jumped to 0.295. His walk rate still isn’t good. His BA went up 100 points. He was 25 and king of the world. Well, prince to Carlos Beltran, but Free Agency Royalty, nonetheless.
But which is the real Beltre? Is his true talent level the 1800 plate appearances at a 93 OPS+, or some progressive growth from a 100 to a 116 to a peak at 163 - the lofty heights of Hall of Famers?
Joe Dimino is excited at Beltre’s prospects as a future great. He pointed out that Beltre’s 37 Win Shares is the one of the most ever by a 25-year old. Other players that posted 34-36 WS (to prorate to a 154-game season) at the age of 25 are pretty impressive, with some 6 Hall of Famers out of 10 players.
What that doesn’t say is that there are tons of players with almost that mark at *or before* age 25. Joe has fallen into the trap of multiple endpoints.
While Beltre posted 37 WS, 6 of those were defensive WS. I have disparaged defensive WS enough, but they are not accurate in general due to the distribution of chances. That said, 6 WS by a third baseman is a lot. But we aren’t fooling ourselves, Beltre is about that good. He is as good a fielder as there is at third base and he posts high defensive WS. What that means to this discussion is that Beltre’s *bat* was only 31 WS.
Looking back at Joe’s claim, how many 25 year olds had 31 batting WS? Someone with the WS database will have to answer that one.
Secondly, while I understand that players on good teams and bad teams should get approximately equal WS, on a weak offensive team like the Dodgers, are Beltre’s WS totals inflated, and his defensive WS deflated? There is a set split of offense and defense in WS, and I believe it works most of the time, but the Dodgers’ defense is largely the source of their success, with extremely weak hitters in the lineup. This first incorrectly balances the Shares to the offense that should belong to the defense, and thus the best Dodger hitter, Beltre, picks up more WS than he should offensively (and less than he should defensively). Maybe that comes out in the wash, but if I want to compare him to others to evaluate his future potential, I need an accurate assessment of his hitting ability. There should be little to no dispute that Beltre will provide excellent defense at third base, and his value, with respect to the $13 mil per season, may be earned overall, depending on how his offensive production dips.
Thus, I’ll move away from WS, and on to using OPS+, because I have easy access to it. There is almost no way to satisfy everyone with the endpoint I select for comparative purposes, so I’m going to use given player’s performance up to and including his age 25 season. Because we are talking about an offensive player’s development, I am not restricting it to third basemen either.
Using some combination of Lee Sinins’ Sabermetric Encyclopedia and Bill James’ Win Shares book, I jotted down a few names to look up on your favorite website and mine (okay, second favorite), Baseball-Reference.
I grew up in the 1970s – those were my prime baseball card collectiing years (I have complete sets from 1973 to today of the Topps Regular Series). Almost immediately, when people speak of a good hitting third baseman, I think of Bill Madlock. He was not known for his glovework, but, boy, could he rake. So I wanted to compile a little chart to see how Beltre may develop offensively. I will also try to include seasons where the player got 300 PAs (something I consider to be a reasonable sample size for a given season – this is flexible). I’ll also throw in what a Hall of Fame development path looks like.
OPS+ Age
Player Pos 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
Beltre 3B 100 116 93 98 89 163 --- --- --- --- ---
Santo 3B 97 121 74 129 164 146 161 153 126 131 115
Madlock 3B --- --- --- 124 141 150 111 144 116 105 154
Olerud 1B --- 120 115 126 185 124 110 110 136 163 131
Burroughs OF --- --- 140 161 105 99 123 157 86 120 108
Clift 3B --- 94 113 128 139 143 106 120 110 122 86
Killebrew 3B --- --- --- 137 145 161 138 147 153 146 158
Schmidt 3B --- --- --- 91 158 142 151 152 122 154 170
Allen 3B --- --- 162 145 181 174 160 166 146 151 200
ARod 3B 160 119 135 133 167 164 152 148 133 --- ---
Thome 3B --- --- --- 125 158 166 155 153 142 132 169
Sixto OF --- 99 116 133 135 164 98 116 146 93 136
Tito OF --- --- 94 87 88 172 127 122 98 81 113
In case you are confused about the positional designations, each of these players were at third base either during his 25 season, or before it.
One thing is for sure: Beltre’s development pattern is very unusual. I can see blaming his drop in performance for the first season back, but baseball players are workout fiends. Beltre would have worked out extra to get his strength back before the next season. He would practice all the time, particularly if he was worried about losing his job and pressing in the previous season. He bounced back some, but then stumbled again.
Looking at other hitters that posted similar OPS+ numbers at age 25 or younger, almost everyone I looked at followed a somewhat normal development pattern, generating a good OPS+ the season(s) leading up to the breakout year. Even Sixto Lezcano did. The closest I could come was Tito Francona. Ron Santo is a pretty good comparison, but he didn’t stumble along at a 93 OPS+ for 1800 plate appearances.
Here’s what I see: There’s almost no chance that Beltre will fall to a 109 OPS+. Even Tito didn’t. Sixto and Harland Clift did, so there is some chance. I am not sure what will constitute “earning” his salary, but I’m pretty confident Beltre won’t make the Hall of Fame. The players above that made the Hall of Fame (Killebrew, Schmidt), or are even on the edge of it (Santo, Allen), outperformed Beltre at this point in the career. While Schmidt’s early career isn’t very different, expecting Beltre to have Schmidt’s career from here on out is absurd.
Another reason to lean away from the Hall of Fame is Beltre’s tremendous lack of plate discipline. He is similar to Juan Gonzalez (career OPS+ 131 at age 25) or Ruben Sierra (career OPS+ 118).
All this talk about Beltre’s bat reminds me of the hype for the former “next Willie Mays”.
Hall of Fame players are exceedingly rare. It just isn’t that easy to be one.
Chris Dial
Posted: December 28, 2004 at 01:49 AM |
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22 - 98
23 - 150
24 - 127
25 - 115
26 - 118
27 - 138
Career - 119
Glaus has had some injuries over the last couple years, and declining eyesight since his "peak" season in 2000, which was rectified with lasik prior to 2004. So I fully expect him to post a series of five or so 130 or higher OPS+ seasons.
The point being, he might be a better comp for Beltre in terms of career value, or Rolen for that matter:
22 - 121
23 - 139
24 - 121
25 - 126
26 - 127
27 - 132
28 - 139
29 - 160
Career 132
Or Eric Chavez:
21 - 94
22 - 118
23 - 131
24 - 122
25 - 132
26 - 132
Career 123
So of the four, Beltre is a relatively distant fourth in career OPS+:
Rolen 132
Chavez 123
Glaus 119
Beltre 109
It will be interesting to see how these four compare in five years (my guess is that Beltre will close the gap, and all will be between 120 and 135).
I didn't use Glaus because he was injured.
I didn't use Chavez or Rolen because neither has the huge 150+ spike before age 25.
While Beltre will close the gap some, he has a lot of PAs at well below 125-130 to pull up. Few stars are mediocre for so long - even ones that start young. If you look at the players of Beltre's age, the good ones performed much better than he did by this time. Okay, they didn't have appendectomies, but three years' worth of recovery?
I just think he's not likely to be a superstar than he is. A lot more.
Age 17, Low-A South Atlantic League
.307/.371/.586, 244 AB, 35/46 BB/K, 33 XBH
Age 17, High-A California League
.261/.318/.450, 238 AB, 19/44 BB/K, 24 XBH
17-year-olds just don't dominate the South Atlantic League, much less hold their own in the toughest pitchers park in the Cal League. The reasonable projection of his 1996 performance is that this is a superstar in the making, a once-a-decade kind of hitter.
Age 18, High-A Florida State League
.317/.392/.561, 435 AB, 67/66 BB/K, 52 XBH
Just ridiculous. Nobody hits like that in the FSL, especially not an 18-year-old. He even tossed in 25 steals for good measure. Basically, as good a year as a prospect could possibly have.
Age 19, Double-A Texas League
.321/.393/.581, 246 AB, 39/37 BB/K, 36 XBH
Age 19, Major Leagues
.215/.278/.369, 195 AB, 14/37 BB/K, 16 XBH
Ripped the cover off the ball in the best pitchers park in the Texas League while still a teenager, forcing his way to the major leagues. Even though he was clearly overmatched in the majors, every reasonable projection for him is that he's an MVP in the making.
His major league numbers from 20-25 have been hashed over many times, so we all know the basic summary. Through the 2000 season, he had shown an obvious, consistent, progressive five year track record of superstar-type development. The most conservative projections would have pegged him as just an annual all-star rather than a perennial MVP candidate. Then, in 2001, the apendectomy came, and he spent three years regressing. 2004, however, was completely in line with the reasonable projection of his prime performance after his age 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 seasons.
I'm not arguing that Adrian Beltre is a hall of famer. However, your analysis is predicated on believing that the 1800 at-batas of Beltre's 22-24 seasons outweigh the 2900 at-bats that he performed like a superstar in the making (or, for 598 of them, just a superstar, period).
For the majority of Beltre's career, he's been an obviously spectacular talent with no flaws. Your claims that he has a "tremendous lack of plate discipline" simply aren't true. In 1400 minor league at-bats, all as a teenager, he posted a 218/220 walk-strikeout ratio. In 1999, 2000, and 2004, his major league BB/K ratios were all solid, especially for a player his age.
Adrian Beltre has spent 9 years playing professional baseball. He was tremendous in 6 of those and mediocre in 3, all following a life threatening surgery. Giving more weight to those three years is rather peculiar, especially from someone who believes in the predictive power of minor league performance.
And, on a non-statistical note, I'd love to hear what specific skill you think Beltre lacks that will keep him from hitting even .280/.350/.450, which would be a 110 OPS+ in Safeco Field.
After a player is established in the majors, as Beltre has been, his minor league numbers simply aren't relevant IMO.
It simply does not matter what Carlos Beltran hit in the minors - nor Adam Dunn, nor any player that has established a MLB baseline.
The minor league translations (and interpretations) serve to tell us what he might do in the bigs, with a typical growth curve. Once a player is in the majors for more than he was in the minors, we *have* his MLB performance. His minor league performance no longer matters. *at all*.
I do agree that after his 116 season (his second full season), his mninor league stats were relevant, but they are less and less so with each passing season, and he's has three bad seasons (for a star) and one good one since that time.
The skill Beltre lacks is the ability to distinguish MLB balls from MLB strikes. This is evident in his (OBP-BA) mark (I refer to this as a player's walk rate, although I know that's not perfectly accurrate - it's just like ISO, but I don't know a better name for it). It's below league average by a good bit.
As I state in the article, after studying it, rather than just jabbering off the cuff, that I think it's a virtual lock that he'll hit a 110 OPS+, and probably a 120+ mark. For 2005.
Also, you refer to his BB/K rate. I am not talking about that specifically. His BA jumped 100 points - do you think that's his true talent level? A .340 average? Or do you think it is much closer to .280? Because if he hits .280, he'll have a .330 OBP, not a .350. WR is 50-60, not 70+. His ISO is going to be around 225, I think, so he will probably post a .290/.340/.520, which in Safeco will be very good.
Remember, I am speaking only of his bat - I know Beltre is a tremendous fielder and should be a valuable third baseman (even at a 109 OPS+), but he's just not worth $13 million.
Five years is a lot, but my personal opinion is that $13 million is a "fair" price at that contract length -- if you believe the James Projections. Another way of saying it: if he averages roughly 23 or more Win Shares over the length of the contract, he will be worth the money (again, based on current salary levels).
He will need to adjust again to the pitchers adjusting to the outside curve/slider. He laid off it in 2004 and drove the ball to right. Can he make the adjustments? Time will tell. Can he adjust to the new park and to the pitching?
Beltre had his career year last year. He will never match it as magic was happening at Dodger Stadium nighlty and there is something to be said for the human element of emotion coming to play; not just numbers. Beltre had a new kid, it was his contract year and he and the dodgers had lots of "comeback" games and all was good.
But things could change. In 2003 we traded for Tyler Houston in order to help push Beltre. We werent sold he would ever arrive.
In 2003 he hit .240 with a .290 OBB
I think it does when we are considering whether a 25 year-old's first great season is a fluke or a breakthrough, and indeed, it does seem that this is the question at hand.
What Beltre's minor league stats indicate is that what he did in 2004 was not unprecedented, and I think that's significant. What he did in the years preceding 2004 are of course more significant, but I would not merely ignore his minor league performances.
okay, but AFAICT they can only be used to explain 2004, nothing more.
Answer me this: Prior to 2004, should the Dodgers have locked Beltre up at 5/$55?
I think it's a resounding - no way. That's too much money for a player that has just posted three seasons of sub-100 OPS+. Now, he psots a 163, and those past three seasons are just *poof* non-existent.
If you're going to argue that Beltre doesn't have the talent to post an OPS better than 10 % better than league average, well, you're just wrong. There's no getting around that. He has six years of positive data that absolutely state that he does have that talent, and a ton left over besides. The numbers he put up from 17-21 and then again at 25 simply cannot be waved away as a fluke. It is undeniable that Adrian Beltre has the natural ability to be a superstar.
Now, if your position is that we shouldn't care about determining talent but should instead simply be baseball actuaries, running numbers to determine likelyhoods and probabilites based on recent past performance, I'll agree with you that history says that players don't usually develop like Adrian Beltre. No matter how his career goes from here on out, he's an outlier. And the statistical community has consistently been unable to deal with outliers. The desire to make everyone fit into a normal development cycle creates an environment where, more often than not, the anlysis is correct, but when it misses, it misses by a mile.
This is that kind of case. Adrian Beltre isn't a normal player who struggled for 1800 at-bats and then had a fluke increase in production. You can throw him in a normal pool of development cycles and claim that the most likely scenario for the next 5 years is a regression to his 2002-2004 form, and I'm sure the actuaries will agree with you.
In this case, they're just wrong.
I certainly know Beltre *could* be Mike Schmidt. I happen to think it is brutally unlikely.
How you (and many others) can be so sure he will be surprises me.
Seriously, Chris, that's perhaps the most absurd comparison you could come up with for Beltre. The fact that Renteria failed to live up to his 20 year old performance was easily predictable based upon his professional record.
I'm not claiming that Beltre is Mike Schmidt or that he's on his way to the hall of fame. That's someone else's argument. I'm simply stating that the Mariners signed a player with remarkable talent and the potential to be a franchise player to a deal for just barely more than run of the mill injured corner infielders are getting.
I'm not so worried about hte price, but that's because I know what his defense is worth. I think the Mariner fans will be crying in their coffee over his hitting.
Studes makes an interesting point above wrt his FMV estimator. If he has to produce 23 WS to be worth his contract, and he can field 6 WS worth, he doesn't have to hit more than his 110 OPS+.
I never got a Tito Francona card.
And Carlos Delgado's.
it's not a nit-pick - it's poor writing. The players with "3B" listed by their names played 3B. Olerud has a 1B and the others have OF.
I wanted to include hitters that had a high spike at or before age 25. For development as a hitter, playing 3B isn't a requirement. Note, that is not true if I were discussing the value of each player's production.
I know what to get you for Christmas.
No way, but I'm not advocating relying on the signal from his minor league numbers in isolation, not by any stretch. That would be much worse than looking at his major league numbers alone. What they indicate is that there was something of a precedent to his 2004 performance. Before 2004, there was precedent without antecedent, and if that were the case, I'd say your point has a lot more validity.
Also keep in mind that Beltre is a tools monster and scouts thought the world of him. The Dodgers thought enough of him to draft him at 15. Scouts would say they saw this coming even if you ignore his stats.
In terms of whether this was a good signing by the Mariners, I think the most important question is the likelihood of Beltre being a bust and the contract becoming a Hamptonesque albatross on a team trying to pull itself out of quicksand. I think there is a significantly non-zero chance of Beltre sucking, but the dollars aren't so huge that it is likely to weigh the team down on its own, so that I don't consider to be a huge concern. I think if Beltre settles into 110 OPS+ as a Mariner with stellar defense, which I would consider the pessimistic side of reasonable, then the Mariners would be paying retail but not getting reamed. However, there is major upside potential here, and the Mariners have Beltre for ages 26-30. I think this makes it a good signing. Not a great one, but a good one.
You also cited his lack of discipline, but he did see a spike in his walk rate last season, not quite to where he was in 1999-2000, and not high by any means, but 53 walks is not an extremely low number. I think maintaining that will be key for him. Like Sammy Sosa, if he draws the walks (i.e., lays off the outside breaking stuff), everything else will fall into place.
As for a tools monster, so is Alex Ochoa.
I don't doubt that this signing will be okay, but I don't think it's some great steal, and I don't think Beltre is going to suddenly begin a HoF march.
I never draft Bonds in fantasy leagues because 38 year olds don't perform like Bonds has. Similarly, inconsistent thirdbasemen aren't a good bet to reproduce their MVP caliber seasons. Beltre may be a huge outlier, and may reproduce 2004 over the next five seasons, but for the very reason that outliers are rare it is rarely a good bet to assume that any given player is, in fact, such an outlier.
Well just eyeballing his first three years, it looks like he did post a roughly 97 OPS+ in about 1700 PA. All this without the appendectomy. Of course he's not in the HOF.
Just looking at the above comps, a range of Clift with 6 WS defense as a lower end of reasonable and a ceiling of Schmidt (albeit unlikely) is a pretty good projected player in their 26-30 seasons. Also given the current FA market, I don't think the Mariners overpaid.
I do think the A's got a slightly better deal with Chavez, if for no other reason because Chavez's development path is closer to the "norm" as described by statisticians and therefore seems less like an "outlier" and therefore more of a sure thing. Also it's slightly cheaper.
Chris, it's not clear from the article and your subsequent comments whether you believe the Mariners overpaid. Just out of curiosity, at what price would you consider the Beltre deal a good one?
1) I think an interesting study is out there waiting to be done of "spike years" that occur in a player's contract year, v. those that occur in random "other" years. My hypothesis in such a study would be that contract-year spikes are followed up with sustained, enhanced performance less frequently than non-contract year spikes. I'd suppose that almost all "spikes" are followed by a regression back to the player's true ability level, but that the increase is sustained to a greater degree when it's Barry Bonds than when it's Adrian Beltre.
2) Despite that, I love this contract for Seattle. There are a ton of contextual factors to take into account here, including the fact they had money to spend right now, an increasingly skeptical and restive fan base wondering about the organization's commitment to contending, and a dearth of options to fill their third base hole (and their need for a power hitter) with anyone else. They committed a lot of money, yes, but they committed it to a still-young player in a game (free agency) that almost always involves paying for a player's post-30 decline phase. It was risky, sure, but a gamble well worth taking.
when I made my bet with Dan, I was pretty sure Beltre would approach a 109 OPS+. After doing my research, it's apparent I'm going to be wrong. So my original assessment showed me to be wrong, but I went ahead and said that.
However, I think $13 mil is too much. I don't think Beltre can out-play the average 3B that much. But I think the market is almost always inflated.
Beltre, IMO, is not as valuable as Guerrero. I think you can find someone to produce within, what, 30 runs of Beltre for <$5mil.
Beltre is an excellent fielder, so I may just be lacking in properly "pricing" defense.
I'm pretty sure Mariner fans are going to be disappointed in Beltre's offense because of what everyone seems to be expecting (140-150 OPS+, HoF etc). Beltre can't do that (consistently) because he doesn't walk enough.
This is, of course, not true, and I'm sure you know that. Beltre's walk rate is equal or better than that of Vladimir Guerrero, Nomar Garciaparra, Magglio Ordonez, Ivan Rodriguez, Juan Gonzalez, and Moises Alou, all of whom have posted OPS+ in that range. Hitters with tremenendous bat control and power can hit for high enough AVG/SLG combinations to be subtantially great hitters regardless of a lack of walks.
What you meant, I'm assuming, is that Belre can't hit for a high enough average to put himself in that category of player. That's an arguable point, and certainly not one that you have enough evidence of to make a statement of fact like you did.
you are right - I was working from your target: .280 BA. If he hits .280, he'll never get there.
Besides, all those guys you listed, only Vlad posts a high OPS+ year-in year-out. Certainly one as high as 140. You have to drop to 120-130 for the guys you list to be consistent.
Igor had 5 seasons (out of 16) as high as 140. And they weren't all in a row. There's some 104s and 110s in there.
And Vlad walks a lot more - alot from IBBs because of his average.
As for enough evidence to say Beltre won't hit .320, I'll say his MLB career says he won't. There's plenty of evidence to state that. I'll be happy wager that Beltre doesn't hit .320 next season.
Of course, we'll see in less than a year, and when I'm wrong, I'll print a retraction linking this article.
Among the free agents this year with the potential for all-star level performance only Carlos Beltran would be a lesser risk, given a similar contract. That the team that signs Beltran may have to gaurantee 8 years at 18M per year, the relative risks of the contracts become similar.
The combination of Beltre's performance last year, his performance from ages 17 to 21, and the talent that has always been obvious to the eye lead me to conclude that a major league only numbers approach to projecting Adrian Beltre's future exaggerates the the actual risk in signing him.
I don't see the relevance of the Alex Ochoa and Edgar Renteria comparisons, neither eye witness accounts of their talent nor minor league performance at similar ages put them in Adrian Beltre's class. A comparison to Troy Glaus would seem to be relevant and he received a very similar contract. Given Glaus's injury risk, degraded play at third base, and potential move to first, I have no difficulty viewing Beltre's contract as a far better.
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