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Dialed In — Wednesday, January 09, 2008Is Jim Rice a Hall of Famer?With all the HOF talk lately, I was wondering if Jim Rice might be a candidate. Maybe you’ve seen some discussion on it – maybe not. With next year being his last year of eligibility, I figure, what the heck, take a look. I am a Small Hall of Fame person. That means people have to be great to get in. There is room, in my Hall, for achieving milestones, because milestones are only achievable through quality over time. There are no peak-driven milestones. I am also as guilty as the next BBWAA voter with regard to some level of “feel” in my Hall. You have to. I’m also something of a position stickler. People like to lump the HOF outfielders together, and I don’t think they would lump the HOF infielders together. The three OF positions are distinctive and teams look for different skills for each one. Yes, left fielders and right fielders are close, but they are not the same. Center fielders are clearly a different class. So it’s pointless to look at the best HOF left fielders and pretend that Rice is in the class of Williams or Musial. But is he in the class of the rest of the HOF left fielders? Before you start saying “we can’t use the lowest common denominator”, I’m not going to. Who are Rice’s real HOF comps? On Baseball-Reference, Billy Williams and Willie Stargell pop up on his comp list. They were also both left fielders. So I split out HOF left fielders from the “real baseball” era. I define that as 1936 to present. If you played baseball prior you were either playing against a weaker league, or a dead ball. That’s barely describable as a “modern” era. My count has the HOF left fielders as: Ducky Medwick, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Ralph Kiner, Monte Irvin, Carl Yastrzemski, Billy Williams, Lou Brock, and Willie Stargell. For this comparison, we’re going to not use Teddy Ballgame or Stan Musial. Rice isn’t in the inner-circle. We aren’t going to use Monte Irvin – he is in for a good portion of his Negro League career. Ralph Kiner’s career is too short. And Lou Brock is in the HOF for 3000 hits and 938 stolen bases.
That leaves Medwick, Yaz, Billy Williams and Stargell. Well, Yaz has 3419 hits, so he’s got a level of longevity over Rice. So, I will be using Ducky, Pops and Billy Williams.
Player Last G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+ Jim Rice 2089 8895 8225 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 670 1423 0.298 0.352 0.502 128 3 HOF Avg 2277 9110 8304 1268 2471 466 85 369 1466 806 1178 0.298 0.360 0.507 141 Zoinks. Rice is getting plenty of love because his stats are right in line people considered to be “middle of the road” HOFers. I mean, I don’t recall Billy Williams, Stargell and Medwick as marginal or borderline HOFers. I know context matters, and that difference shows up in the OPS+ numbers. But with all the other numbers, is that single data point sufficient for all the clamoring that Rice doesn’t belong? Well, yes. It basically says that the leagues that Rice played in were 13 percent easier to put up the stats he put up. So Rice is 13 percent worse than the usual HOF left fielder. What’s funny is that Rice’s OPS+ is right beside Yaz’ (129). If Rice had hung around for another decade and got 3000 hits, he’d be elected. I don’t think the proper comparison is that Rice was the best left fielder (whether he was or not) for a given decade, but whether or not he measures up to the definition of a HOF left fielder. That’s pretty well established, and he clearly is not. In order to make the Hall, he should have 3000 hits or 900 stolen bases or 7 straight home run crowns, assuming his OPS+ is going to be less than 140. I must say, I was really surprised at how reasonable Rice’s stats look compared to solid HOF left fielders. These aren’t the margins – so it’s understandable how anyone not looking at OPS+, or some other statistic that accounts for context, that Rice looks good. His count and rate stats are right in line with the average of Stargell/Williams/Medwick. Rice is legitimately described as a top ten left fielder in the modern era. Many people think that’s enough to be a HOFer. Is it?
No, Jim Rice shouldn’t be a Hall of Famer, but this analysis shows that Rice “put up Hall of Fame numbers”, just not at a good enough rate.
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Rice is getting plenty of love because his stats are right in line people considered to be “middle of the road” HOFers.
Well, except for the quantity. His career was still a year-and-a-half shorter. And that's with Monte Irvin's half-career dragging the totals down.
It basically says that the leagues that Rice played in were 13 percent easier to put up the stats he put up. So Rice is 13 percent worse than the usual HOF left fielder.
Nitpick: wouldn't this be 9%? 13/141 = 9%.
Interesting - I think fellow LF Ralph Kiner is the only man to go in during his final year of eligibility.
I only included Stargell/Williams/Medwick. I left Irvin out. It's a season and a half of games, but he already caught up in count stats, so that's not important.
Nitpick: wouldn't this be 9%? 13/141 = 9%.
No, they are 41% above average. He's 28%. 41-28 = 13 (this isn't relative to one another, but rather to an independent measure). And I know that these adjusted numbers are NOT just that percentage above 100.
Shouldn't his defense come into play here somewhere. And his GIDP
Top left fielders in terms of OPS+: Williams 191, Bonds, 182, Kiner 149, Stargell 147, Belle 143. It's amazing the ease with which Belle was dispatched.
But - Dial also left Ralph Kiner out of his composite for no particularly good reason. Belle has more games, more HR, and a lot more RBI than Kiner.
I applaud your ability to do a Rice HOF study without using the word fear, either as a reason for induction or as a pejorative deriding those supporting it.
More importantly though. look at Dave Parker, the guy's right there with Rice and he's not likely to get in. WHY? i could think of one very obvious reason (like where they played most of their career) but that's certainly not fair at all. Parker held on longer and had better overall count stats. and if we're going to go by the writter's silly logic of winners. guess what, Parker has 2 freakin ring. where as Rice was part of the two ugliest moment of the Bambino Curse (Billy Buckner, Bucky Dent)
Of course I didn't. KIner is in with a very short career. He's in because he won 7 straight HR crowns. That's a good reason. If Albert Belle had done so, I'd agree with you.
Short answer: No.
None of these guys are great fielders. That's generally why they are left fielders. And the GIDPs are a small portion of his value - nothing compared to his 128v141 OPS+. He hit into 100 more than Billy Williams, and he was a RHB, with lots of men on base in front of him.
Winners? What writer are you referring to?
And these aren't "Dial's rules". They are a comparison to similar ballplayers already in the HOF. Players with career numbers *and reputations* are in the HOF. It makes sense for anyone looking at the numbers, less OPS+, to think Jim Rice belongs.
This article isn't about what Albert Belle or Andre Dawson, or whomever, shoulda, coulda, woulda, gotten.
HR/RBI:
Stargell 475/1540
Williams 426/1475
Medwick 205/1383
Rice is not comparable to Stargell and Williams. He's way ahead of Medwick. I realize Medwick was not a VC selection, but he got in because he hit for high averages in a good hitter's park in the 1930's.
Fair enough. Another reason I didn't include Kiner was that he would obviously drop the averages.
While Medwick drops the HR/RBI count, he raises the BA. There's some tradeoff in the three's stats. ANd those were the only three that are in the HOF on similar merits as Rice's candidacy.
I'd consider that as as long as Frank Howard goes in first.
Can you show me some quantification of that? I can show you Lou Brock's hits and SBs.
The unique criteria of 3000 hits and all time SB leader (at the time of election, still easily 2nd) is MUCH bigger than "fearsome".
He hit into 100 more than Billy Williams, and he was a RHB, with lots of men on base in front of him.
RHB doesn't mean we should discount them. They are part of his value of a ballplayer. Lets also take away some HR due to his RHBness.
Even if you run GIDP percentage or something, he still hit into a great number and it effects his value.
One of the most interesting presentations at St Louis's SABRcon was a poster presentation by a professor about unique stat lines. Speedsters stuck out in the modern era and Gavvy Cravath stuck out almost as much in the Deadball Era as Ruth did a few years later. Ichiro sticks out nowadays, while Arod in has typical batting skills, just better. For the life of me I can't remember who the presenter was. I think someone mentioned it in a SABR recap. It might have been Bob Ngo's blog.
RHB doesn't mean we should discount them. They are part of his value of a ballplayer. Lets also take away some HR due to his RHBness.
Even if you run GIDP percentage or something, he still hit into a great number and it effects his value.
I'm not "discounting them". I'm not including them much at all. I also didn't include HBP, SF, out advancing on flyballs, outfield assists or other stats that very few voters would look at. I didn't cherry-pick these categories. Go to BB-Ref's HOF page, stats by position. You select the LFs. You put Jim Rice's stats - same columns - under those guys, and there's where he falls. GDPs, HBPs, SF, SB just aren't in there. It's not some disguised analysis to make Rice look good. I was surprised his numbers fell that closely to three players no one I know considers "marginal". No, he's not better than them. But anyone in BBWAA looking at Rice's career without trying to nit pick. If the reason you think Rice isn't a HOFer is down to 100 GDPs, well, that's drawing an extremely fine line.
GIDP are context dependent, much like RBI's. Both stats affect value. If you are going to talk about one, you need to talk about the other, IMO. Rice didn't start grounding into a huge number of double plays until he had Boggs and Evans up in front of him.
Not that it makes much difference. Rice shouldn't go in even if you ignore GIDP.
Posts that pass in the night.
And so is Morris, his career W-L 254-186, considering total wins and winning % is right in line with many HOFers, 254-186 equates to 215 Fibbonacci points- the only eligible pitcher with more who is not in is TJ with 217 (288-231) the next closest who is out os Carl Mays, with 210 (207-126), and he's out because he is/was the pitching equivalent of Dick Allen or Albert Belle (Mays was despisd even before he killed someone).
Morris ERA is obviously not in line with other HOF pitchers, unfortunately as time goes by and the current big bang era continues his career 3.90 ERA is looking more and more palatable to the voters- it shouldn't- his 3.90 ERA was good for a 105 ERA+, the fact that if you posted a 3.90 ERA is 2007 you'd get a 115 ERA+ doesn't matter, Morris did not pitch from 1994 to 2007, he pitched from 1977 to 1994.
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+
1708 7060 6286 966 1812 341 27 399 1254 641 1231 .288 .355 .541 139
Those are the merged numbers of Juan Gonzalez, Albert Belle, and Frank Howard. They pull almost even with the hall of famers in OPS+, but fall about 2000 plate appearances short, and I think that's what killed all three of them (well, did kill Belle & Howard and will kill Juan Gone).
I think you hit the nail precisely on the head when it comes to Rice. If you're not taking park effects and other playing conditions into consideration and are just looking at the raw, basic counting stats, he looks superficially like a Hall of Famer. He has the right career length, shape, and numbers for it. It's only when you start to look a little deeper and at things like OPS+, baserunning, fielding, etc. that he falls short. Since most members of the BBWAA don't look past that surface level, they think he's a hall of famer.
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+
1708 7060 6286 966 1812 341 27 399 1254 641 1231 .288 .355 .541 139
Thanks, Bob. That's what I love about this site - collaboration.
granted, none of those parks were fenway, but pittsburgh ranged from 98 to 111 (but he was injured that year, 108 is the highest full-season year) and cincy ranged from 103-105 while he was there. fenway rated 98-118 (but with a majority in the 105-111 range)
and for those clammoring that dale murphy and his 2 mvps have a vastly superior resume to rice, let me toss out these numbers:
home/road split advantage: BA/OPS/OPS+ (i included BA b/c voters like it and, well, that was the defining stat of the day)
Rice: +43/+131/+30
Parker: +25/+72/+17
Murphy: +30/+103/+25
So yes, Rice did benefit the most from his park, but Dale Murphy is no road killer and neither is parker, as evidenced by their parks:
altanta-fulton county stadium during murphy's career: 99-113 (majority in the 105-111 range)
and btw, Rice's 1978 MVP season (including his 406 total bases), fenway was "only" a 109 that year. Murphy's MVPs were 108/106 and Parker's was 106.
career ops+:
murphy: 121
parker: 121
rice: 128
so ops+ thinks that rice is still better than them, fenway be damned.
now i know murphy and parker were both better defenders, but for the GIDP argument...
Atl Team OBP: .297-.342 (majority under .317, only 3 seasons above that mark)
pitt team obp: .311-.330 (very little disparity)
cincy team obp: .315-.328 (ditto)
red sox team obp: .324-.355 (all over .334 except 1 year)
what am i trying to say? just like the recent red sox leading the league in DP, it was because so many men were on base that they led the league in DPs because they had more chances than any other team. rice had the curse (along with playing in fenway) of hitting in a higher obp lineup (mostly, probably b/c of fenway). at their worst, his red sox teams got on base at the same clip as parker's and murphy's best teams. with more guys on base, you're just going to have way more double plays! (dwight evans is probably exempt from this the same way murphy is: he hit lower in the lineup so rice (or someone else) already cleared the bases empty =P) want some more direct evidence of this? before 1982, jim rice had "normal" GIDP numbers of 14-21 (17/yr). if he continued that pace, he'd have around 240-245 for his career. much closer to parker/murphy (both with 209...how curious!)
but in 1982, some fellow named wade boggs joined the team. after that, rice had 4 years of 29-36 GIDPs (32.75/yr, almost double!).
what does this all mean? rice was a better hitter than parker and murphy (even after adjusting for park), but they were both better defenders and better base runners. neither sides of these arguments presents themselves to be vastly superior to the other.
i've made my peace with rice not being a HOFer. but let's all call a spade a spade.
Happy to help. Many people didn't really think of it in those terms, so this should help you.
Kiner probably deserves a season or so of World War II credit as well. He was only 23 when he came up in 1946, but given that he led the NL in homers that year, one can presume that he was ready for the majors sometime before then.
Patrolling the corner outfield at the same time as Rice were players who were as good or better, Jack Clark, Jose Cruz, George Foster, Greg Luzinski, Reggie Smith, Dwight Evans. I know that the voters in the BBWAA are still focused on the triple crown statistics, and that is why if I am asked by a young-un in 20 years who the great players in baseball were from the 1970s and 1980s, I won't send them to the Hall of Fame website, but rather to the Hall of Merit plaque room.
try again.
Evans is better. I don't know about Smith or Clark. But Bill James ranked the other three a little below Rice in the NBJHA. That said, I think the problem with Rice is he's about at that point where it's hard to ordinally rank players because we don't know enough to be precise enough to separate them. I'm not all that interested in who gets a plaque and who doesn't, but that's an argument for a smaller hall.
Medwick is about as marginal as you get -- he was elected in his last year of eligiblity too.* He jumped from 72.6% in 67 to 84.8% in 68 ... I guess everybody wanted to be the voter to put him over the line. :-)
* OK, maybe not. His last game was 48, but I can't find him on a ballot until 1956 (16.1%).
Also Medwick really drags down that games played comparison. Williams had nearly 2500 and 1600 more PA than Rice. Stargell had 2360 g, though only 100 more PA than Rice so that one's fair. Medwick had fewer games and 700 fewer PA. He also really drags down the HR (just 205, Williams 426, Stargell 475).
Medwick -- short career, no good after 32, 1 MVP, and isn't he the last NLer to win the triple crown -- is a good comp for Rice. So yeah, Rice is like the worst LF ever elected by the writers.
And if you drew your "modern" line at post-ww2 (or post-integration which is pretty much the same) then Medwick doesn't even count.
All of which makes me half-think Dial is having us on a bit and tossed Medwick in there for just that reason. :-)
Note that a very large fraction of Medwick's value is tied up in BA: for those three years .353, .351, .373 against leagues that averaged .290, .286, .282. That and XBH, especially doubles and triples. In 1937 he was 56-10-31. He led the league that year in BA, SLG, Hits, Runs, RBI, 2B, HR, and TB, as well as such measures as OPS+ and OWP.
Smith was better. And it aint close at all. Jose Cruz is very interesting. If you add in defence (and Rally's recent contributions help to put a number on it), GIDPs and baserunning, I suspect that one would have Cruz as a little better. Mind you, if you take the first half of Rice's career and add the second half of Cruz' career, you would definitely have a Hall of Famer. The point though is that Rice was one of a number of very good corner outfielders of his time. Of the current non-Hall-of-Famers, Smith and Evans are the close ones. The Hall of Merit people weighed their case of Smith very, very carefully and Evans walked in.
I'm not. My personal research gives me this statement "If you played baseball prior [to 1936] you were either playing against a weaker league, or a dead ball. That’s barely describable as a “modern” era."
So yeah, Rice is like the worst LF ever elected by the writers.
Lou Brock is a worse LF. And Medwick isn't generally considered "marginal". He's not a clear mistake. Thus, Rice won't appear to be.
Boggs was helped tremendously by Fenway.
When writers retire, they still retain their vote. Seniority is the main crireria in becoming a voter. There is no requirement that you actually understand baseball or have any particular ability to evaluate players or understand and use statistics. It's like jury selection. Everybody is deemed to be qualified, and the ability to decipher/interpret/understand information and to make intelligent/logical/well-reasoned decisions is not even taken into account. That's why lawyers pander to emotional arguments and the lowest common denominator when addressing juries. What a system we have to administer justice and the same great system to decide who's a Hall of Famer and who's not.
Agreed on Brock.
But I don't see how you can get more "marginal" than Medwick. By HoF standards (for non-MI), he's low on games, HRs, RBIs, hits, and even OPS+ and they made him wait forever and he started out with 16% of the vote. He does quite well on BA but that's about it.
As to "clear mistake" ... the vast majority of the recognized "clear mistakes" are VC selections. The writers haven't made many mistakes (probably none by the standards of the full Hall) and most of the ones they've made have been ones of omission (esp. of the "how could Lou Whitaker get less than 5%" variety). You can chide them for weak-hitting but supposedly good-fielding SS or their current fascination with relievers (and Perez and Puckett ... the current writers are about as loose as ever).
Joe Medwick is just about the worst corner player the writers have ever put in the HoF. In a quick perusal, the competitors I found were Sisler, Terry and maybe Perez (so many more games) at 1B; Brock in LF and nobody I can see in RF. The only one of those guys clearly worse than Medwick is Brock.
Now he would rank among the best of the VC selections but in my mind, all but a couple of VC selections are marginal at best.
And not to get semantic, but "clear mistakes" aren't "marginal", they're mistakes who don't belong. The guys who might be mistakes are marginal -- and Medwick is one of those. At the least, for a group that didn't elect Allen or Mize or Klein or Cepeda or Goslin or Howard or Cash or Calavito or Oliva or Will Clark or (probably) Belle or (probably) Walker ... it looks kinda odd that they did elect Medwick. (I know, the BBWAA membership is chaning all the time so those weren't the same groups ... and of course they did elect some similar players.)
Funny.
Fortunately you answer this yourself:
"Now he would rank among the best of the VC selections but in my mind, all but a couple of VC selections are marginal at best."
You are setting different goalposts. There are lots of players in the HOF. Not just the ones voted in by the writers. The other 150 people in the HOF keep the general definition of "Who is in the HOF" from being anywhere near the margins of the HOF. Sure, if you have a Small Hall, then Medwick is outside looking in, but a career BA of .324 is humongous.
If you say so ... but I disagree. There are "clear mistakes". Take out the "clear mistakes" -- those who "don't belong" -- and Medwick is marginal, especially for a corner player.
Now if you want to argue that there are no "clear mistakes" in the HoF or that there are only, oh, 5 of them, that's fine.
I would further argue that the number of people in the HoF is not a good indicator of how many are "marginal." As we all know, the distribution of performance is such that you'll find a lot more folks near average or above-average than you will "great". The difference between those 12 players I just named (3 added to the HoF by the VC) and Medwick is trivial if not indistinguishable. That puts them all on the margin of the HoF. That the VC added a whole slew of other marginal (or worse) candidates while not adding an even larger slew of marginal (or worse) candidates doesn't make the marginal guys who are in any less marginal.
Seems to me a reasonable working definition of "marginal" is something like "among a group of similar players, if half or fewer are in, then this is the margin of the HoF." (Obviously at least some need to be in, no point discussing this for Neifi Perez's peer group.) I think we could tweak it more: if (most of) the ones who are in either (a) took several years to be elected or (b) were added by the VC, then that's further evidence of marginality. You could put bounds on it -- perhaps 25-50% in is "marginal", less than 25% is a "mistake."
And I would finally add that anyone who doesn't acknowledge the difference between BBWAA selections and VC selections doesn't really understand how the HoF works. Writer standards are high and have been relatively consistent across the years. VC criteria have been all over the map. The inclusion of mistakes and marginal players by the VC has had little/no influence on the standards that writers (as a group) have applied ... nor is it clear that past VC selections have influenced future VC selections. If terms like "deserve" "marginal" "mistake" etc. are going to have any real meaning in these sorts of discussion (and perhaps they shouldn't), the distinction between BBWAA selections and VC selections has to be recognized.
If Medwick isn't marginal, there are no marginal HoFers.
You only seem to disagree because you don't care for the VC votes.
And I would finally add that anyone who doesn't acknowledge the difference between BBWAA selections and VC selections doesn't really understand how the HoF works. Writer standards are high and have been relatively consistent across the years
*I* know there is a difference. The writers don't. That's why Jim Rice is getting elected. This was just showing how they can justify it. I think it is compeltely wrong.
And I know that you know that the difference between a 141 OPS+ and 128 OPS+ is NOT 13% because the OPS+ distribution is not linear.
You aren't really arguing that because Rice had similar numbers to the others every where except OPS+ then we should discount that one number? It's the biggest number. It's the number that compares him to everyone else when he played. I could hear you yelling from here if someone told you that Ron Gant (.256/.336/.468) was just about as good as Jimmy Wynn (.250/.366/.436) because the only stat where Gant was really worse than Wynn was OPS+ (112 to 128).
Finally, the problem with Rice to me is not that his OPS+. The problem is that OPS+ overstates his real value, because Rice created so many more runs at home than on the road than would be expected given his normal OBP/SLG home and road rations for Fenway. Basically, to support a Rice candidacy, which I'm aware that you don't', one has to argue that being Frank Robinson for half of a very short career outweighs being Ron Gant for the other half. If Rice had played in any park but three in the major leagues from 1975-1985 he would never even have been considered for the Hall of Fame. I just can't get around that.
Yes, I said as much in the article and discussion.
You aren't really arguing that because Rice had similar numbers to the others every where except OPS+ then we should discount that one number? It's the biggest number. It's the number that compares him to everyone else when he played.
No - it's the number *we* look at. The number I posted are the ones that the electorate looks at.
We are Contrarian-Brothers-in-Arms.
Amen brother!
Ah, well, that's certainly true. Sadly, I can't even begin to count the number of times over the last month that I've heard writers talk about how a guy should be in the Hall of Fame (or shouldn't) because of the number times (or lack of) that the player drove in 100 runs in a season. And I wonder why the voters are more savvy about the finer points of home/road splits.
Unless you say "hitting" is different from "batting", which includes walking.
BPS+ numbers for Rice and Boggs:
Rice 171 167 158 148 147 143 136 132 131 129 124 120 101 98 98 76
Boggs 184 170 161 160 156 145 142 139 137 124 120 120 104 100 97 95 94 88
Boggs appears to have Rice beat, but:
Career: Rice 136, Boggs 131.
Boggs had 3040 PA in his sub 105 BPS+ years vs only 1305 for Rice.
Um... Yeah! How can you say Jim Rice isn't better than Dave Kingman? How does being a .236 lifetime hitter good? Just because someone hits homers does not mean they are good. Jim Rice at least got near the .300 lifetime BA plateau. Jim Rice should be in in the Hall for sure. If they let Rabbit Maranville in, then they should let Rice in for sure.
Many fans and BBWAA members still make that assumption-
I have an old Total Baseball, in one of the articles printed at the front was one regarding the history of baseball stats- the adoption of walks as part of the batting record was controversial- it was seen as a waste of time and effort (and a waste of time and effort is a serious negative when you do not have hand held calculators let alone computers)- because it was assumed that pitchers exercised if not 100 % control over walks, something close to that.
The first time I ever discussed Bill James with my college roommate (over 20 years ago), he was interested, but objected to OBP since it included walks, and RC for the same reason, he kept saying, "but that's the pitcher".
My favorite dice game, simply for the design of the charts. But it had some drawbacks, as you say. IIRC, the few high-walk batters who had some yellow squares (for BB) on their charts were Ed Yost / Max Bishop types, not Ted Williams (who didn't have any walks at all on his chart, perhaps). An ability to walk was recognized, but only in the case of the few hitters who seemed to walk for no apparent reason.
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