Seems like a little limbo in this circumstance, welcoming thoughts.

1.  If a fly bounds off a wall and back to a fielder, it is treated as if it hit the ground first.

2.  If a fly bounds off the wall (could be the exact same spot) and goes over (depends on the wind), it is treated like a fly, and is ruled a home run when it lands on the other side.

3.  So there could someday be a scenario where a guy catches a ball after it bounced off the wall and carried past it, and the correct call would be under rule 2 that the batter is out, notwithstanding rule 1. Moreover, if he merely deflected it after it hit the wall, and it landed over the wall, it is still a homer; merely touching a fielder doesn’t change the status of a hit from fly to grounder.

Is there a special rule for this, or this just an inconsistency?

Scholars?

The distinction is not whether it’s treated as a fly or as a grounder. It’s based on whether the wall being struck is in the field of play or not. Some walls, or parts of walls, are in the field of play; others are not.

a. If a fly ball makes contact with a wall in the field of play, then lands outside of the field of play, it’s a double.

b. If a fly ball makes contact with a wall in the field of play, then comes back onto the field or to a fielder, the ball is live, and the batter and all runners advance at their own risk.

c. If a fly ball makes contact with a wall outside the field of play, and remains outside the field of play, it is a home run.

d. If a fly ball makes contact with a wall outside the field of play, then comes back onto the field or to a fielder, it is still a home run. An example is J.D. Drew’s home run in this game: anything to the right of the yellow line is considered outside the field of play.

(For the sake of this discussion, the ball will always be in fair territory. Different rules may apply depending on whether the ball hits a wall while foul then goes fair, or hits fair then goes foul.)

Most of the confusion arises when an umpire cannot recognize whether a wall that has been struck was in the field of play or outside the field of play. They’re generally not confused about which wall is in or out; rather, sometimes they cannot discern which wall, or which part of a wall, has been struck by the ball. In those cases the umpire might rule in c. or d. that the ball is still live, thinking that it struck a wall in the field of play. Likewise in a. or b. they might rule that the ball struck a wall outside the field of play, producing a home run. The umpires’ judgment is what matters. 

The only way for your scenario 3 to occur - a ball bouncing off a wall, then being caught for an out - is if, in an umpire’s judgment, the ball didn’t touch the wall first. Once the ball makes contact with a wall it is either a dead ball and a hit (in a., c., or d.), or a live ball akin to a ball that has already touched the ground (in b.). It is very unlikely* that an umpire would have such poor judgment that they could not recognize a ball hitting an object such as a wall.

* The exception is Angel Hernandez. Though some umpires make bad calls, Hernandez is the only one I could imagine as being able to get such a call wrong.

villageidiom - 09 June 2008 09:34 AM

The distinction is not whether it’s treated as a fly or as a grounder. It’s based on whether the wall being struck is in the field of play or not. Some walls, or parts of walls, are in the field of play; others are not.

a. If a fly ball makes contact with a wall in the field of play, then lands outside of the field of play, it’s a double.

b. If a fly ball makes contact with a wall in the field of play, then comes back onto the field or to a fielder, the ball is live, and the batter and all runners advance at their own risk.

c. If a fly ball makes contact with a wall outside the field of play, and remains outside the field of play, it is a home run.

d. If a fly ball makes contact with a wall outside the field of play, then comes back onto the field or to a fielder, it is still a home run. An example is J.D. Drew’s home run in this game: anything to the right of the yellow line is considered outside the field of play.

(For the sake of this discussion, the ball will always be in fair territory. Different rules may apply depending on whether the ball hits a wall while foul then goes fair, or hits fair then goes foul.)

Most of the confusion arises when an umpire cannot recognize whether a wall that has been struck was in the field of play or outside the field of play. They’re generally not confused about which wall is in or out; rather, sometimes they cannot discern which wall, or which part of a wall, has been struck by the ball. In those cases the umpire might rule in c. or d. that the ball is still live, thinking that it struck a wall in the field of play. Likewise in a. or b. they might rule that the ball struck a wall outside the field of play, producing a home run. The umpires’ judgment is what matters. 

The only way for your scenario 3 to occur - a ball bouncing off a wall, then being caught for an out - is if, in an umpire’s judgment, the ball didn’t touch the wall first. Once the ball makes contact with a wall it is either a dead ball and a hit (in a., c., or d.), or a live ball akin to a ball that has already touched the ground (in b.). It is very unlikely* that an umpire would have such poor judgment that they could not recognize a ball hitting an object such as a wall.

* The exception is Angel Hernandez. Though some umpires make bad calls, Hernandez is the only one I could imagine as being able to get such a call wrong.

Isn’t point (a) wrong?  A ball that hits a wall in play and goes over is a home run.  You see this all the time when a homer bounces off the top of the wall.

villageidiom - 09 June 2008 09:34 AM

The distinction is not whether it’s treated as a fly or as a grounder. It’s based on whether the wall being struck is in the field of play or not. Some walls, or parts of walls, are in the field of play; others are not.

VI: You may have missed the point of the question.

In the Mets ‘69 title run, I saw a ball hit the very top of the wall and find a protruding nail, and bounce back, then a few weeks later, a ball hit the top of the wall in nearly the same spot, no nail, over for a home run.

I get your point that umps in the infield aren’t always able to see where the ball hits on the far side of the wall, or even on the field side (thanks, Jeff Maier!) and so it may make sense for the league to install cameras, or better yet sensors in objects past the wall so there can be no doubt about it.

But I think the question remains open. It is physically possible for balls in the same exact spot to produce different bounces, and I don’t know why different results occur on that.

Scholars?

This pic is the exact scenario I was talking about, the ball is sitting on the wall and not moving after Damon deflects it. If it blows over it is a home run, but by that logic, if Damon gets up and catches it as it rolls over or just picks it up from its resting position on the wall it would be an out. But if it blows back, it is in play, as it did here, becoming a triple.

I disagree with the poster who thinks it is a double if it blows over from this position.

So the fence (or at least the top of the fence) has a duality that depends on what happens next. In this case, it eventually blew back an was a triple.

(The photo is from the New York Times and Reuters, 7/5/08, page D1.)