BBTF's Game Chatter Discussion :: NLCS Game 4: Mets (1-2) at Cards (2-1)

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— Where Thinking Fans Discuss Today's Games

Sunday, October 15, 2006

NLCS Game 4: Mets (1-2) at Cards (2-1) - 8:15 pm EDT on FOX

NYM: O. Perez (3-13, 6.55)
STL: A. Reyes (5-8, 5.06)

NTNgod Posted: October 15, 2006 at 03:27 AM | 684 comment(s)
Related News: NY Mets, St Louis

Reader Comments and Retorts

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1. Benji Posted: October 15, 2006 at 10:47 AM (#2212471)

First, I refuse to give up on this team. They can certainly win 3 out of 4. Second, let's stop the goddam Shawn Green bashing. If he caught that ball Friday it would have been one of the greatest catches in history. The guy came here as a ,280 hitter with diminishing power and speed. Basically a platoon player. Unless you think somehow we could get Vladdy or Carl Crawford for Evan McLane, you can't blame Omar for gettng Green. The things we can regret are:

1. Losing Pedro and Duque
2. Not DLing Floyd. Wishful thinking won't help now. I love Cliff, but his injuries are not going
to disappear without a lot of rest.
3. Having Traschel on the team. He never, ever should have been re-signed.

And please, stop the revisionist history. From April til the trading deadlne the second most posted comment in Met chatters was "Nady sucks". Second only to "LoDuca sucks". Xavier Nady doesn't catch either of Spiezio's triples either. Remember what Mao used to do to revisionist historians.

This is a gritty bunch of players. If this series is salvageable, they will pull it out.

2. strong silence Posted: October 15, 2006 at 11:41 AM (#2212479)

I agree that Green shouldn't be criticized for catching Spiezio's hit. Very few outfielders remaining in the playoffs would have caught it. Kotsay and Edmonds would have got it had they been playing RF. Perhaps Bradley. (Ichiro! would have make it seem easier than all these guys because he gets to the spot where the ball will land faster than anyone.)

I didn't see Game #3. Why were the Met's bats so cold? I was surprised. Aren't they the best hitting team in the NL?

Pedro and El Duque got you to the playoffs. Injuries are regrettable but we all knew the risks of injury for these two.

3. Sam Hutcheson Posted: October 15, 2006 at 12:12 PM (#2212490)

Look, Steve Trachsel sucked last night. No argument there. He had no control and he was pounded when he actually got something in the zone. And I don't hold the Game 2 non-catch against Green. That would have been a great catch had he pulled it down. But last night's "triple" was a horrendous defensive play and there's really no getting past it. Green took a looping, indirect route to the ball, he slowed down half way there and then tried to make up for his misread with the dive, a choice that gave Spezio another bag. If he had pulled up and played the hop he keeps Spezio at 1st and probably keeps the second run from scoring. All told, it was a poor choice, poorly executed. There's simply no way around that fact. A run-of-the-mill defensive right fielder makes the catch on the run. At most the runner at second tags and takes 3rd. A good-to-great defensive RF (Ichiro, Jeff Francoeur, J.D. Drew) makes the catch standing still and no runner advances.

Shawn Green helps the Mets, I suspect. As you say, he was one of the best available platoon RFs on the trading block. Ignoring his price tag, he's a step up from Nady and not a bad acquisition all told. But his defense has clearly slipped and he was never a stellar defender to begin with, and that fact cost the Mets Game 3.

4. Rob Base Posted: October 15, 2006 at 12:55 PM (#2212505)

this sucks.

5. Raskolnikov Posted: October 15, 2006 at 01:26 PM (#2212516)

I agree that it's harsh to bash Green when we all knew that he was a lousy fielder, but it does seem to be a lack of foresight on someone's part not to have a defensive specialist to sub in for Green. That ties in with Floyd's injury, which took Endy off the bench. Milledge should have been on this roster for this round - he catches the Game 3 ball and would have a decent shot of catching the Game 2 ball. I think at this point, you have to use Tucker as a def. sub for Green, because Green has Nady-esque range out there.

6. Robert Machemer Posted: October 15, 2006 at 01:35 PM (#2212520)

it does seem to be a lack of foresight on someone's part not to have a defensive specialist to sub in for Green. That ties in with Floyd's injury, which took Endy off the bench. Milledge should have been on this roster for this round
I don't watch the Mets much. His reputation from the minors is pretty good, I understand, but in his time in the majors this year, did Milledge demonstrate a capable glove? The only times I got to watch him he was very unsteady. (Very limited sample size, admittedly, but that's my point: if Milledge did little to demonstrate to his manager that he was a good fielder, why would he make the roster as a defensive sub?)

7. Russlan is an overhyped Met BTFer Posted: October 15, 2006 at 01:59 PM (#2212524)

How huge was Darren Oliver yesterday? If the Mets do anything else in the postseason I think a lot of credit has to be given to Oliver.

8. dreamydave Posted: October 15, 2006 at 02:11 PM (#2212529)

different situation entirely, but oliver sucking up innings last night reminded me of wakefield pitching in relief of game 3 of the 2004 alcs

9. Hey, it's what Johan uses (Matt) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 02:18 PM (#2212531)

I believe.

10. Anonymous Observer Posted: October 15, 2006 at 02:27 PM (#2212537)

I think tonight's game is going to be a nail-biter both both sides. It's easy to see how it could be 5-5 after the first inning, or no score with only 1 or 2 hits per team after 5. It's as unpredictable as Carpenter's game 2 start was.

AO

11. Raskolnikov Posted: October 15, 2006 at 02:37 PM (#2212540)

This game will have a large impact on the assessment of Minaya's performance this year. Throughout the season, we all knew that the 4th spot would be the iffy one (although no one could have predicted how this ended up playing out). He had two months to anticipate today's scenario and the viable options that emerged were:

1. Pelfrey
2. Bannister
3. Williams
4. Perez

The Mets went with Perez. We'll see if that turned out to be the right choice.

12. Anonymous Observer Posted: October 15, 2006 at 02:41 PM (#2212542)

13. Alan S Posted: October 15, 2006 at 02:45 PM (#2212544)

What bothers me is that, unless my understanding of playoff roster construction is wrong, they could have gone with 2 of those options. Right now, it would be nice to have Dave Williams in the pen, ready to take over for Ollie at the first sign of trouble. Instead, we have Anderson Hernandez on the bench, serving no purpose unless both Valentin and Reyes go down.

14. Rob Base Posted: October 15, 2006 at 02:46 PM (#2212546)

Funny, speaking of Zambrano, has anybody noticed that he seems not to have been with the team at all since he was injured? Pedro had surgery last week and I see him on the bench. It's the NLCS, after all, and you might expect that even injurued players would be on hand to, you know, support their own team.

I think we may breathe a sigh of relief that Zambrano seems to be effectively off the team and unlikely to be tendered a contract this offseason. Thank god for that.

15. Sam Hutcheson Posted: October 15, 2006 at 02:52 PM (#2212552)

This game will have a large impact on the assessment of Minaya's performance this year.

Not really. Minaya's a success regardless of how this game or this series ends. He's already taken an also ran and turned them into a contender. He took a chance on Pedro's health and that has come back to bite him a bit, but he took out an insurance policy for that with Hernandez. That injury is what has the Mets' staff reeling, and it can't be held against Minaya. If Hernandez is healthy Trachsel is the fourth starter, not Oliver Perez.

If you think Minaya's success or failure is dependent on the outcome of Game 4 you don't understand the job of a major league general manager.

16. Raskolnikov Posted: October 15, 2006 at 03:04 PM (#2212559)

If you think Minaya's success or failure is dependent on the outcome of Game 4 you don't understand the job of a major league general manager

I disagree. Minaya's has had a successful season regardless of outcome, but how high a grade he gets will rest on the outcome of this series and how much Perez impacted it. No one could have forseen the Mets being down to Glavine/Maine/Trax, but the Mets did spend all of August and September auditioning starting pitchers, so it's not as if the Mets can argue that they weren't prepared for this scenario. Pelfrey, Bannister, and Williams all received extended looks along with Perez. Minaya knew after the LA series that the team would need a 4th starter, and he put his chips in with Perez. If Perez ends up being a factor in the Mets getting eliminated, then Minaya made the wrong decision, and that has to be pinned on him. Of course, I'm rooting for Minaya to end up looking brilliant again.

17. Alan S Posted: October 15, 2006 at 03:23 PM (#2212576)

Well, Rask, I don't think Pelfrey was ever really in the running for that spot. And Bannister, when he was effective, appeared to be doing it with smoke and mirrors, and he got hit pretty hard in his 2 starts at the end of the year. I don't think many people would have been pleased with him being given the fourth spot.

So it comes down to Perez and Williams. Perez, even though he had more bad starts than good ones, showed flashes of how good he could be when he held it together for a few innings. Williams, on the other hand, had only 1 bad start in 5 with the Mets, but he doesn't have the upside of Perez. That said, Williams probably would have been my choice. I view Perez as more of a risk/reward choice, and I do not know if that's a wise thing to do when you have Trachsel and/or Maine likely to be taxing the bullpen before him. But I still can't really fault Minaya for going with the option that provides the highest upside.

What I can fault him for though, is not putting both Williams and Perez on the roster. That way, if the one you start doesn't appear to have it, you go to the other one, and even if he isn't any better, at least you don't have to destroy the rest of your bullpen. Anderson Hernandez is pointless and has no place on this roster.

And Tiki Barber is awesome.

18. Sam Hutcheson Posted: October 15, 2006 at 03:30 PM (#2212584)

Jeremy Shockey is an ass, though. And that stupid little "jump shot" thing the defensive line does after a loss is either idiotic or classless or both. I'm leaning toward both.

19. Sam Hutcheson Posted: October 15, 2006 at 03:47 PM (#2212598)

Yep. Both.

20. rembini06 Posted: October 15, 2006 at 03:59 PM (#2212611)

I believe.

I might have a "Ya Gotta Believe" card that I got Shea many years ago. I got it at a Doug Sisk game though.

Having matched their 2005 postseason progress, the Cardinals now are playing with house money. Any wins generate nothing but Scooby Doo giggles from me. It would be nice if Reyes gives up zero homers today.

21. Alan S Posted: October 15, 2006 at 04:01 PM (#2212614)

I agree, but I still find it amusing for some reason, probably because of just how idiotic and classless it is. Jeremy Shockey most certainly is an ass, though.

22. Sam Hutcheson Posted: October 15, 2006 at 04:05 PM (#2212618)

Shockey is the kind of player that makes you hope to see a career ending injury type deal.

23. Sam Hutcheson Posted: October 15, 2006 at 04:14 PM (#2212625)

Apparently the entire Giants defensive unit are classless asses. Late hits out of bounds with 30 seconds left and finger wagging on on a meaningless pass defense with time runs out? For the record, it's players and plays like that that make the rest of the country despise New York sports teams.

24. Sam Hutcheson Posted: October 15, 2006 at 04:14 PM (#2212627)

25. Alan S Posted: October 15, 2006 at 04:17 PM (#2212631)

Well, I don't think they should be doing it, but every single NFL team does stuff like that.

26. Sam Hutcheson Posted: October 15, 2006 at 04:25 PM (#2212637)

I don't disagree -- the NFL seems to be populated almost exclusively by idiots, cretins and morons. I'm pretty sure it's an evolutionary trait associated with being a professional football player. Self-obsessed, testosterone-drenched steroid-addled jocks will be self-obsessed, testosterone-drenched steroid-addled jocks I guess. Still, one can hold out hope to see them writhe in career ending agony. It's something to look forward too at least.

27. rembini06 Posted: October 15, 2006 at 04:32 PM (#2212641)

Decent chance of rain tonight and 80% chance tomorrow. I'd love to see the Mets bullpen get pressed and Glavine pitch on short rest, but the idea of Jeff Weaver also on short rest isn't a pretty picture either.

28. Bob Koo Posted: October 15, 2006 at 04:49 PM (#2212645)

I figure they'll try really hard to get the game in tonight, since tomorrow seems more likely to be a postponement.

It might not have mattered, but I disturbed by the Mets hitters' approach last night. They seemed to be swinging for the fences, rather than trying to piece hits together. Hopefully, they'll be much more relaxed tonight and hit some line drives, with a homer (or two or three) mixed in.

29. Russlan is an overhyped Met BTFer Posted: October 15, 2006 at 05:20 PM (#2212661)

You know, I always wait in anticipation for Perez's starts because you never know what to expect. I know the results are usually bad but he's almost always fun to watch and there's a small chance that he'll toss a gem.

30. Hey, it's what Johan uses (Matt) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 06:13 PM (#2212699)

J. Reyes ss
P. Lo Duca c
C. Beltran cf
C. Delgado 1b
D. Wright 3b
S. Green rf
J. Valentin 2b
E. Chavez lf
O. Perez p

D. Eckstein ss
S. Spiezio lf
A. Pujols 1b
J. Encarnacion rf
S. Rolen 3b
J. Edmonds cf
R. Belliard 2b
Y. Molina c
A. Reyes p

31. J. Cross Posted: October 15, 2006 at 06:20 PM (#2212705)

Yeah, I'm sort of excited by the idea of the Oliver Perez start because we have no idea which Oliver Perez will show up. Would Christmas Eve be more exciting for kids if they knew that although they might get something great there's a better chance they'll end up with lumps of coal? Oliver Perez is the ever intriguing door #3 to Trachsel's uninspiring gauranteed "prize." Let's hope we don't end up with one of the goats.

32. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 06:42 PM (#2212715)

I'm here. Lets turn around this mofo.

Fearless prediction: Oliver Perez will pitch into the 7th, and will leave with a lead. Heilman, and Wagner will close it.

33. Rob Base Posted: October 15, 2006 at 06:44 PM (#2212717)

13-1 Mets. RoHer closes it.

34. Alan S Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:15 PM (#2212739)

13-1 sounds OK.

35. Banta Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:23 PM (#2212747)

OFF's presence is making me feel optimistic about tonight.

36. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:34 PM (#2212758)

Don't worry guys, if for some reason we lose today, I'm heading to the bar at school tomorrow. The Mets are 2-0 in the playoffs when I watch the games there.

37. Raskolnikov Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:36 PM (#2212760)

The ideal result would be a win tonight and a rainout tomorrow. I think that the Mets can hit Weaver whether he's on 3 or 4 days, but Glavine will likely be more effective on 4 days. It would also give the option of using Perez in Game 7 in case he spins a gem tonight.

38. Raskolnikov Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:39 PM (#2212762)

We need the big guns tonight - what we need is David Peng's baby.

39. bunyon Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:39 PM (#2212763)

Two rainouts. Maybe three.

40. Rob Base Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:44 PM (#2212767)

Pedro and Tommy and pray for tsunami.

41. Tom D Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:45 PM (#2212768)

Good Churchillian post, Benji.

42. Joshemy Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:48 PM (#2212772)

Let's Go Mets!!!

43. Banta Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:49 PM (#2212776)

Eric Byrnes is about two seconds away from killing Jeanne Zelasko on air. I'm looking forward to this.

44. Urban Faber Posted: October 15, 2006 at 07:55 PM (#2212783)

Maybe she'll insult his background and they'll have to fire her.

45. Urban Faber Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:04 PM (#2212792)

Finally, baseball.

46. Joshemy Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:05 PM (#2212797)

OK. Let's go boys. Put some runs on them early.

47. The Clarence Thomas of BTF (scott) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:06 PM (#2212798)

this game is going to make it impossible for me to do my contracts reading.

oh well.

48. AJM Misses Brodeur Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:07 PM (#2212799)

Anthony Reyes irons his cap?

49. The Clarence Thomas of BTF (scott) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:08 PM (#2212801)

ugh.

c'mon. they've got to get some runs.

50. The Clarence Thomas of BTF (scott) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:09 PM (#2212805)

88 mph fastball, that's not good for A. Reyes.

51. Joshemy Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:11 PM (#2212807)

Good job Beltran.

Let's go Carlos #2!

52. AJM Misses Brodeur Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:12 PM (#2212811)

A walk, that's a start.

Let's go Carlos #2.

53. Joshemy Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:15 PM (#2212818)

Good eye Delgado.

Let's go D-Wright!

54. AJM Misses Brodeur Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:15 PM (#2212817)

Another walk.

Come on David!

55. Banta Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:15 PM (#2212819)

Good start.

COME ON, DAVID. NOW IS THE TIME.

56. Urban Faber Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:15 PM (#2212820)

Crowd got quiet.

57. The Clarence Thomas of BTF (scott) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:15 PM (#2212821)

C'MON WRIGHT!

58. Urban Faber Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:17 PM (#2212823)

88 mph fastball, that's not good for A. Reyes.

And subtracting 3 or 4 mph from the Fox gun ...

59. AlouGoodbye Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:17 PM (#2212824)

David Wright is a choker.

60. Rob Base Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:17 PM (#2212825)

Wright doesn't really shorten up with 2 strikes at all, but that's ok McCarver.

61. The Clarence Thomas of BTF (scott) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:17 PM (#2212827)

c'mon david, dump it into the opposite field.

62. AJM Misses Brodeur Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:18 PM (#2212829)

####. At least Reyes threw 26 pitches.

63. Anthropophagus Mets Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:18 PM (#2212830)

Wright looks shot. I'm hoping this isn't a long-term problem.

64. Banta Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:18 PM (#2212831)

Ah, nuts.

At least they made Reyes work a bit.

COME ON, COUSIN OLIVER

65. Joshemy Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:18 PM (#2212832)

Damnit David. He did throw 26 pitches though.

Come on Ollie. Get off to a good start.

66. Fat Al Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:20 PM (#2212833)

I hate Diamond Cam. Who thought a cellphone camera underwater was a good thing to show on TV?

67. Raskolnikov Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:20 PM (#2212834)

Bad: What the heck has happened to David Wright?

Good: Reyes's stuff looks very hittable so far.

68. AlouGoodbye Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:20 PM (#2212835)

Yep. Choker.

69. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:21 PM (#2212837)

I'm obviously rooting for Ollie tonight. Prove me right Ollie...

70. Banta Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:23 PM (#2212839)

Oh boy...

71. Raskolnikov Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:23 PM (#2212840)

Valentin is very good at going back for popups.

72. Rob Base Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:24 PM (#2212841)

I think I saw him reach towards third base on his windup.

73. Robert S. Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:24 PM (#2212842)

Shawn Green's feeling the heat - he's wearing his 20" hat tonight.

74. Buddha Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:25 PM (#2212844)

what the hell is that on Perez's lip?

75. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:25 PM (#2212845)

again, I'd like him to be quicker with his motions. No think, more throw.....

76. Zeba Zeba Eata Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:25 PM (#2212846)

Oh, no, Delgado!

77. AJM Misses Brodeur Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:25 PM (#2212847)

Dammit Delgado.

78. Urban Faber Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:25 PM (#2212848)

E-3?

79. Joshemy Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:26 PM (#2212849)

Oh Carlos, you need to catch that.

80. In what respect, Craig K? Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:26 PM (#2212850)

It's bettin' time!

If the Mets win this series, I will, for the offseason until the first true spring training game, take the name of whoever the Mets fans want me to take.

However, if the Cardinals win the series, I want one of the Mets fans to take a name of my choosing.

Any takers?

81. Banta Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:26 PM (#2212851)

Real clutch, Delgado. Jeez.

At least all Pujols got was a single.

COME ON, OLLIE!!

82. AlouGoodbye Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:26 PM (#2212852)

Haha David Wright sucks.

83. Raskolnikov Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:26 PM (#2212853)

I'll say it again: The strike zone for Pujols is obscene. He gets all the borderline pitches.

That drop really hurts.

84. Rob Base Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:27 PM (#2212855)

However, if the Cardinals win the series, I want one of the Mets fans to take a name of my choosing.

Any takers?

Should prob be me.

85. Hey, it's what Johan uses (Matt) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:28 PM (#2212856)

#### YES!

86. Zeba Zeba Eata Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:28 PM (#2212857)

DP!!!

87. AJM Misses Brodeur Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:28 PM (#2212858)

DP!!

88. Joshemy Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:28 PM (#2212859)

DP! Nice work Ollie.

89. Urban Faber Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:28 PM (#2212860)

No harm on the drop.

90. Raskolnikov Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:28 PM (#2212861)

Yes! DP.

Perez looking good so far. (crosses fingers)

91. Banta Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:28 PM (#2212862)

Perez is actually looking pretty good so far. Not too wild.

Just... keep it up, buddy. Please.

92. Bob Koo Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:28 PM (#2212863)

Way to go Ollie!

93. Rob Base Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:28 PM (#2212864)

Haha Pujols and Encarnacion suck.

94. The Clarence Thomas of BTF (scott) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:29 PM (#2212865)

oliver perez looks like he could be excellent tonight.

95. J. Cross Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:30 PM (#2212867)

However, if the Cardinals win the series, I want one of the Mets fans to take a name of my choosing.

Any takers?

Assuming that Pedro doesn't get a quality start this post-season my name is already spoken for... otherwise, I'd be right with you.

96. Buddha Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:30 PM (#2212868)

When I was young I used to get really pissed at my dad when he would mute all of the commericals. Now i can see his wisdom...

97. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:31 PM (#2212869)

Good job by Ollie. Now we need some runs.

98. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:32 PM (#2212870)

We haven't seen the curve yet, but I'm liking his velocity and location (all inside corner to RHH except for that last pitch and the 1-0 to Pujols that Ollie missed by 2 feet). Let's predict the final line......Caveat is that unless he starts using his deuce, he won't get the K's....

Ollie P---- 6 2/3, 4 H, 1 ER, 2 BB, 7K

Again, Rick P should be telling Ollie to "speed up, speed it up, don't think too much out there."

99. Raskolnikov Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:32 PM (#2212871)

Shawn Green does have a decent eye. I'm surprised he doesn't draw more BBs.

100. Alan S Posted: October 15, 2006 at 08:34 PM (#2212873)

Good AB for Green.

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NLCS Game 4: Mets (1-2) at Cards (2-1) - 8:15 pm EDT on FOX

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