OK, here is a list of things I want to see done during the offseason:

1) Javy Lopez released
2) Vartitek given gold watch. Told for $3 million he can catch 60 games and play against LHP. Be glad when he signs with the Mets or some such nonsense.
3) Masterson given an opportunity to start in ST, maybe even use him as a shadow starter early in the year for Buchholz.
4) Wakefield given gold watch
5) Cash released... wait, actually I might be fine with him being a backup, but not to Varitek.
6) Bowden given the opportunity to be #5 starter; fall-back is to have him be Masterson v.2009
7) Kotsay back on a 1-year deal only
8) Crisp traded.
9) Lugo traded.
10 Cora gone, gone gone.
11) Sign CC Sabbathia
12) Trade for new C. Probably with the Rangers.

A rotation of Sabbathia/Lester/Beckett/Matsusaka/ head-on-straight Buchholz would be formidable, and if Buchholz has the yips, go with Bowden/Masterson/etc. from the system to fill-in.

This team is in a position now where really the only throw-down move they can make is to go get a "3rd" ace to go with Beckett & Lester. I don't see runs as their problem, it's run prevention they need.

Now, if they can unload Lugo, I personally would be fine with Lowrie sliding into a 3B-SS-2B Cora-type role and them trying to go out and get a lights-out SS, but I don't think these grow on trees, and have no idea who they'd target. But Lowrie as our Gil McDougald would not bother me.

These are just ideas off the top of my head, as I sit here riding shotgun on the pessimism bus.

Hey Dial, what does DRS have for Upton in CF this year? IIRC, Plus/Minus has him as plus a few plays, but a negative overall from giving up too many extra base hits, which seems consistent with his shallow positioning.

I think I have him about that. I should be posting that shortly. I finished the NL, but reconciling all the AL players still has to be done.

Can you DFA a player in the middle of a playoff series?

I don't generally buy into chemistry type talk, but the Red Sox looked so terrible against the Angels that last series Manny was there, that I do think Manny had to go.

Call me a neanderthal if you must, but there it is. For this year, it was potentially a wash to a slight downgrade. The main reason I liked the deal was next year and beyond. Bay for 7 mil or whatever it is for his age 30ish season is fine by me.

Seeing Manny hit his 500th was probably my favorite live sporting moment I've ever witnessed, but I do think it was time to move on. I'm just glad they got something useful for him.

The 2008 Mets would've won ~ 75 games in the AL East.

Really? They went 4-2 against the Yankees and 2-1 against the Angels. I think they'd have been fine.

TE, I like most of your ideas but you aren't going to still have Bowden and Buchholz if you trade for a young catcher. One of the two is going the other way in that deal.

Chris, I don't see the point of going any further with this. What's the point? I've already made my points about what you posted and you disagreed. I don't think I'm going to convince you of my take on things.

I don't generally buy into chemistry type talk, but the Red Sox looked so terrible against the Angels that last series Manny was there, that I do think Manny had to go.

No, I think that's what was going on. But there are two ways to fix it - excise the tumor or cure it. The Sox went with option 1, and I think Manny's is better (for the remainder of this season - I agree Bay is younger, cheaper, etc).

Really? They went 4-2 against the Yankees and 2-1 against the Angels. I think they'd have been fine

I'm convinced. Solid arguement.

re: 500

I agree mostly, except for Coco. If he's willing, I think he needs to stay around.

Chris, I don't see the point of going any further with this. What's the point? I've already made my points about what you posted and you disagreed. I don't think I'm going to convince you of my take on things.

Actually, you haven't. What did I post *specifically* that you felt was trollish? One thing.

I'm convinced. Solid arguement.

It's better than the one you put forth.

We're comin' back!

TBE,

Who's paying for all those gold watches?

They went 4-2 against the Yankees and 2-1 against the Angels.

Wow, those 9 games (3 of which were against an AL West team), are far more meaningful than their performance over a whole season. Just as the 22 head-to-head games between Boston and Tampa Bay are the best way to compare those two teams.

Here come the Red Sox!!!

That "should be a hit and an error." Gee, you think? I thought Upton might get Pedroia at 1B.

Who's paying for all those gold watches?

The American taxpayer?

Wow, those 9 games (3 of which were against an AL West team), are far more meaningful than their performance over a whole season. Just as the 22 head-to-head games between Boston and Tampa Bay are the best way to compare those two teams.

What on EARTH do you think I am saying? tfbg said the Mets would win ~75 games in the AL East. I was simply saying they did okay against a couple of the best teams in the AL and thus would not be a sub-.500 team.

Yes, you are definitely reading things wrong.

1) Javy Lopez released
2) Vartitek given gold watch. Told for $3 million he can catch 60 games and play against LHP. Be glad when he signs with the Mets or some such nonsense.
3) Masterson given an opportunity to start in ST, maybe even use him as a shadow starter early in the year for Buchholz.
4) Wakefield given gold watch
5) Cash released... wait, actually I might be fine with him being a backup, but not to Varitek.
6) Bowden given the opportunity to be #5 starter; fall-back is to have him be Masterson v.2009
7) Kotsay back on a 1-year deal only
8) Crisp traded.
9) Lugo traded.
10 Cora gone, gone gone.
11) Sign CC Sabbathia
12) Trade for new C. Probably with the Rangers.

1. Timlin needs to be Goldwatched
2. Javier Lopez can stay as the last guy in the pen.
3. Wake should stay as the insurance policy should everybody else shiitte the bed
4. Coco/Cora - gone gone gone
5. I don't mind Kotsay staying
6. Varitek should become the backup catcher
7. Kevin Cash should be offered a really good minor league deal: i don't think any other MLB teams will want him.
8. I don't think Lugo is going, because nobody is goign to want him. We should Cora Lugo and just start Jed.

5 runs here, 5 more in the 9th, and then we can blow it in the 10th.

The NL is ~10 games worse, and the AL East is the best division. And your team chokes.

One thing.

How about your very witty mercy rule post?

What about a nice Casio watch, with an alarm and a timer?

I agree mostly, except for Coco. If he's willing, I think he needs to stay around.

Kotsay and Coco are mostly redundant, and since we're racist, we're keeping the White guy.

How about your very witty mercy rule post?

Please. Even a moron new that was just a witticism. He posted as much.

Ortiz looked good on the previous AB but he can't be expected to catch up to 86-MPH heat.

The NL is ~10 games worse

This isn't true. Please demonstrate.

Sox swept the Mets in 2006 - clearly we would have won the NL East then and probably beaten St Louis...

Ortiz looked good on the previous AB but he can't be expected to catch up to 86-MPH heat.

For instance, if I post that, I am a troll. It's a comment - take them at face value.

Sox swept the Mets in 2006 - clearly we would have won the NL East then and probably beaten St Louis...

Well, you have a similar reading disorder.

This isn't true. Please demonstrate.

The AL averaging ~1 more run per game in ~200 interleague games is pretty damning.

The deficit is back below double digits!

Oh baby, it's comeback time. Too bad we didn't drop Ortiz in the order! Or DH Sean Casey!

Or leave Masterson in for another inning before trying to find a reliever who didn't have it today.

The AL averaging ~1 more run per game in ~200 interleague games is pretty damning.

Well, arguing the AL is somewhat better is different than saying the Mets are a sub-.500 win team in teh AL, or that the NL is 10 wins worse. No, the Pirates may be 20 wins worse, but the Mets aren't 10 wins worse. That's bunk.

For the last 3 years, the NL plays .418 ball against the AL.
The Mets would be overmatched in the AL East.
The O's are a tougher club than the Mets.

Really? They went 4-2 against the Yankees and 2-1 against the Angels. I think they'd have been fine.

I must have read that wrong with my reading disorder.

Fine??

Jackson's throwing 98 so we'll obviously crush him the way Delcarmen got crushed.

99 MPH?

99 MPH?

#### you, Jolin!

I earned a Coke from this terrible game! All is not lost!

I must have read that wrong with my reading disorder.

Fine??

Well, where in there did I claim anything about the Mets winning the AL East and going to the WS? Your comment would have been comparable if *I* had claimed teh Sox wouldn't have won 70 games in teh NL, and you said the Sox played well against the top NL teams and thus would have been fine. That'd be the same. Your response was over the top.

1) Timlin has been an underrated player for a long time. Reliable reliever for many years. Its cliche, but good teams have guys like him. But he's cooked. I understand he probably wanted to come back for the RH pitcher appearance record, I understand that. But the fan part of me wishes that my last player memory of him was the world series last year.

2)Javier is ok. I think he's misused a lot of the time. But he's not precisely a loogy, which is both good and bad. He's ok as a last guy type.

3)I don't like the personal catcher thing, but Wake for 4 mil is too good to pass up. Also, something I've been meaning to ask for awhile, is it just me, or does Tito seem to go with the house money lineup with Wake more often than the other guys? It could be because he's already starting Cash, but I think its really because Wake's a good soldier and won't ##### about it when Tito gives guys days off. Thoughts?

4) Coco stay/Cora stay provided Tito is served a restraining order. Cora's excellent as a backup. I don't get the hate.

5) Kotsay is ok. I suspect he might be cooked though. If he takes the Casey role, that's fine.

6) I think Varitek needs to go. Too much sway to part time him like he should be.

7) Cash seems like a good guy. Keep him on retainer. In Pawtucket.

8) Lugo, gone. I think he stands a decent shot to go out for a bad contract.

Oh please, Maddon left Sonnanstine in despite him looking shakier in the 7th, left Miller in to face a righty with a man on base, and now has brought in Jackson. It's blatantly clear that they don't really give a #### how this game finishes as long as no top relievers need to be used.

Why is there a day off tomorrow? I hate dwelling on this team - I can't wait to see it get blown up - just the way textbook described it.

Nice. That's what's supposed to happen when a guy is throwing 98. He blows away the other team's best hitter and can't lay off it outside the zone. It's not supposed to be the #9 hitter crushing triples off you and everyone else laying off your stuff.

That movie looks kind of awful, but well acted.

Please. Even a moron new that was just a witticism. He posted as much.

Well, Bright Boy, I sarcasticly posted that it was witty. Me, Dumbas$, it was me. Because it wasn't witty.
Get it?

Jim

Any thoughts of making Jackson a reliever? Can't quite get it all working as a starter but he looks like he'd make a pretty tough 1-IP guy.

Playing .418 ball in 756 games is not evidence of NL inferiority in Dial's mind.

A mind that admires Barry Bonds. And East German swimmers, one presumes.

/rolls eyes

I sarcasticly posted that it was witty. Me, Dumbas$, it was me.

I knew it was you. That was my point. Look, all teh posts around that were "this is comical", "this is too ridiculous to even get upset about".

It was a funny remark. Sorry you didn't like it. And evidently there was still plenty to get upset about.

Jimminy [spelling? too lazy to look on IMDB] Christmas, I forgot about sending Timlin to the bottom of the Charles. Thanks for reminding me, Wok.

Dan, I am hoping against hope that the pixie dust gets in TX's eyes and they let us have a C without losing Bowden or Buchholz. I know it's unrealistic, but I dare to dream.

We need to use a 1st round pick or a sandwich pick on a C in next year's draft, because as far as I can tell the cupboard is a bit bare there.

Any chance Varitek is a Type A FA? If so, I'm really hoping someone dumb signs him... Is he old enough yet for San Francisco?

Wait, now we're blowing up this team? Why?

It was a funny remark.

No. Not funny. Cliche. You have funny/cliche confusion.

Wait, now we're blowing up this team? Why?

I didn't get that either.

We need to use a 1st round pick or a sandwich pick on a C in next year's draft, because as far as I can tell the cupboard is a bit bare there.

Kottaras/Brown/Wagner seem like backup types. Exposito appears to be a cult leader of some sort, but he's still very far away. I have high hopes for Lavernway a couple of years down teh road: he's White, which should help.

Not blowing up - re-tooling I meant

Dan, I am hoping against hope that the pixie dust gets in TX's eyes and they let us have a C without losing Bowden or Buchholz. I know it's unrealistic, but I dare to dream.

You might get one for Masterson. If you get Salty, he could take Casey's spot. That way, we could still keep a backup to catch Wake AND keep Varitek to catch 70-80 games. Salty catches 50-60, PH/1B another 50-60, and learns the ropes from Tek.

I'd love to see Jackson be moved into relief next year unless they can get a truly good return for him in trade that would improve next year's major league team. It's pretty clear that they are more committed to Sonnanstine to him (as they should be in my opinion, Jackson's K/BB still blows as a starter) and if Price moves into the rotation at the beginning of 2009 as it seems likely he will then Jackson will be the odd man out.

However, there is a belief among a lot of people that Jackson isn't suited to relief work and can't be depended on to be good right away on a consistent basis coming out of the 'pen. Personally I think that's horse #### though, the last time he was a reliever was while he was still a complete mess. I don't know how the team feels though, they've given little indication either way about it.

BTW, is it true Byrd will be a type B?

For the last 3 years, the NL plays .418 ball against the AL.

One more time. That's in 756 games.

You lose.

Kottaras/Brown/Wagner seem like backup types.

Yes, in AAA. Okay, Wagner MAY have a future of some kind. Exposito doesn't look like much.


CASEY!

You might get one for Masterson. If you get Salty, he could take Casey's spot. That way, we could still keep a backup to catch Wake AND keep Varitek to catch 70-80 games. Salty catches 50-60, PH/1B another 50-60, and learns the ropes from Tek.

Out of Bowden/Masterson/Buch, the one I'd trade is Bowden. He's Jeff Suppan to me. Masterson has the potential to become the next 2IP workhorse for the next 4 years or so. The good Scot Shields anybody?

teh Mets played .511 over those three years against the AL. They'd have been fine.

However, there is a belief among a lot of people that Jackson isn't suited to relief work and can't be depended on to be good right away on a consistent basis coming out of the 'pen.

That's what middle relief and mop-up are for. You put guys like that there and see if they can be your setup or closer.

Is this gun juiced? He doesn't look like he's throwing 99.

Okay, here we go.

I agree with Wok on that one, Bowden is the one I trade, I think

I'd love to see Jackson be moved into relief next year unless they can get a truly good return for him in trade that would improve next year's major league team. It's pretty clear that they are more committed to Sonnanstine to him (as they should be in my opinion, Jackson's K/BB still blows as a starter) and if Price moves into the rotation at the beginning of 2009 as it seems likely he will then Jackson will be the odd man out.

It seems obvious to me that Jackson is the odd man out; there is no doubt in my mind. I wonder if they could package him with Wade Davis and/or someone else and get Holliday from Colorado? Colorado is looking for "young starters ready to step into the rotation."

Does teh TV match the park for pitch speed?

I don't know about the park, but the numbers on the broadcast match the pitch f/x numbers showing on Gameday.

I'm with Wok in terms of prefering to trade Bowden. I don't know that Tito would use Masterson for multiple-inning stints all that often though, though I do think he could thrive in the role.

Time to break out Tito's secret weapon.

9 run homer.

Right now.

Does teh TV match the park for pitch speed?

If it does - the Fenway dude is drinking already

Bowden's #s in AAA at age 21 look a lot like Suppan. But his stuff has taken a big step forward in the past year and is now considered than I recall Suppan's stuff being. Besides that, Suppan is a damn good, valuable pitcher. He's more valuable than a sturdy, good reliever.


Okay, that looked like a slider that was clocked at 98.

Actually, you haven't. What did I post *specifically* that you felt was trollish? One thing.

As far as I can see you haven't said anything trollish, just asinine: Trading Manny was going to hurt sooner or later. If you'd kindly point out how trading Manny has hurt the Red Sox, or even how it will hurt, that might help clear things up. Because unless Manny has learned how to pitch a quality start, it's unclear that trading Manny has hurt them.

Since you brought it up in the context of Boston not being the best team in the AL, it can be inferred that you meant the Manny trade is what keeps them from being the best team in the AL. Again, if you could point out how trading Manny away changes them from "best" to "not the best", that'd be great. In lieu of that, any explanation why your comment was made in that context, but not meant to be taken in that context, would be fine.

You're not a troll; you're just misunderstood. A little coherence would help that.

Kotsay is signed for next year for $8M.

Masterson should be given a 2 IP/no consecutive appearences role. I think he would do very well. Just needs to get better command of all his pitches. I had always though Masterson was a "meh stuff good control" guy. It appears his stuff is actually really good, but his command is just ass.

Wait, now we're blowing up this team? Why?

I'm not sure that what either of those big multi-part posts about what to do in the offseason constitute "blowing up" the team, even if they were billed that way by their respective proponents.

I wonder if they could package him with Wade Davis and/or someone else and get Holliday from Colorado? Colorado is looking for "young starters ready to step into the rotation."

That would be good for Colorado, maybe with a third smaller piece from the Rays system as well. Not sure about interest from the Rays though since Holliday is close to free agency.

I'm listening to the Blow up by Television

It was on my mind

Kotsay is signed for next year for $8M.

Wait, what? Blech, that's terrible. Did the Braves pay a bunch of that?

Btw, my staff for next year would be:

Rotation: Lester/Beckett/Daisuke/New Brand Shiny FA pitcher/Buchholz
Pen: Paps/Delcarmen/Okajima/Masterson/Lopez/Wakefield/Another guy

I'm sure Wakefield could do Timlin's job this year of pitching in games with +/- 5 runs and to lose in extra innings after all our other good pitchers have been used. Plus he can emergency start and emergency lose!

Nice work Rays.

Oh well. Hopefully the Sox can at least send it back to the Trop.

Kotsay is not signed for 2009. He had a 2 year deal for 07 and 08.

I'd rather have Bobby Kielty than Mark Kotsay in terms of "former Oakland White OFs"

As far as I can see you haven't said anything trollish, just asinine: Trading Manny was going to hurt sooner or later.

How is that "asinine"? Is that just what people call a difference of opinion? I believe I sadi at or about the time that it wasn't some great trade. You might disagree, but to call it asinine? That's a bit much.

If you'd kindly point out how trading Manny has hurt the Red Sox, or even how it will hurt, that might help clear things up. Because unless Manny has learned how to pitch a quality start, it's unclear that trading Manny has hurt them.

Since you brought it up in the context of Boston not being the best team in the AL, it can be inferred that you meant the Manny trade is what keeps them from being the best team in the AL. Again, if you could point out how trading Manny away changes them from "best" to "not the best", that'd be great.

Well, games are different, and played different with a lead. And yes, if Manny plays for teh Sox like he did for teh Dodgers, the Sox may well have been the best team. Is that clear?

In lieu of that, any explanation why your comment was made in that context, but not meant to be taken in that context, would be fine.

And I think this would be a fine observation is ANYONE had made a comment to this effect. I was pointing out trading for a worse player is generally a bad idea. No, Bay isn't the reason the Sox are losing (and I said that already), but Manny is a better player.

You're not a troll; you're just misunderstood. A little coherence would help that.

Well no one really took issue with my post in the manner you are noting here, so I don't really think that was it. It was plenty coherent; some people were just upset.

Yeah, even in light of the sample size, these last three games (plus Beckett shitting the bed against the Angels) make me think we need another starting pitcher.

Oops, I was fully expecting that expletive to be nannied. Of course this is a night for expletives, many and copious expletives. Expletives galore. I am not sure words have been invented yet that could describe such a fiasco as what occurred this evening.

I am not sure words have been invented yet that could describe such a fiasco as what occurred this evening.

"Delightful" is the one I'd use.

teh Mets played .511 over those three years against the AL. They'd have been fine.

Small sample size theater. You'd don't even believe that yourself. Nice try.

A .549 team in a vastly inferior league, playing in the toughest division, in the far tougher league is
not gonna be just fine, they'd figure to be mid-70's wins.

Night-night, Chris D(en)ial...

How is that "asinine"? Is that just what people call a difference of opinion? I believe I sadi at or about the time that it wasn't some great trade. You might disagree, but to call it asinine? That's a bit much.

Saying it at the time of the trade isn't asinine, kinda like saying at the start of the season that the Mets would win the division in 2008 wasn't asinine. Saying either one now... well, it kinda is.

And yes, if Manny plays for teh Sox like he did for teh Dodgers, the Sox may well have been the best team. Is that clear?

Sure. So, then, you weren't saying that Boston was the best team before the trade, and "not the best" after the trade - rather, that they never were the best team in the AL, but they would've been - wait, no, they "may well have been" - had they had the same guy batting against NL pitching for two months? That's a bit different than saying the trade has hurt them. If that's what you'd meant, you would've had an easier time just saying that.

I was pointing out trading for a worse player is generally a bad idea.

No, you were pointing out trading this player has hurt Boston. Your generality is correct; I'm questioning your actual comment, in which there was nothing general. Please.

It was plenty coherent; some people were just upset.

You were writing specifics but claimed to be speaking in generalities. If that's what they call coherent where you come from, you might want to get out more. I agree that folks were upset, and were reacting emotionally to your post. Trolls often provoke emotional responses, which is probably why it was suggested you were being a troll.

How is that "asinine"? Is that just what people call a difference of opinion? I believe I sadi at or about the time that it wasn't some great trade. You might disagree, but to call it asinine? That's a bit much.
Saying it at the time of the trade isn't asinine, kinda like saying at the start of the season that the Mets would win the division in 2008 wasn't asinine. Saying either one now... well, it kinda is.


And yes, if Manny plays for teh Sox like he did for teh Dodgers, the Sox may well have been the best team. Is that clear?
Sure. So, then, you weren't saying that Boston was the best team before the trade, and "not the best" after the trade - rather, that they never were the best team in the AL, but they would've been - wait, no, they "may well have been" - had they had the same guy batting against NL pitching for two months? That's a bit different than saying the trade has hurt them. If that's what you'd meant, you would've had an easier time just saying that.


I was pointing out trading for a worse player is generally a bad idea.
No, you were pointing out trading this player has hurt Boston. Your generality is correct; I'm questioning your actual comment, in which there was nothing general. Please.


It was plenty coherent; some people were just upset.
You were writing specifics but claimed to be speaking in generalities. If that's what they call coherent where you come from, you might want to get out more. I agree that folks were upset, and were reacting emotionally to your post. Trolls often provoke emotional responses, which is probably why it was suggested you were being a troll.

This is remarkably over the top for a single sentence that said "taading manny was going to hurt sooner or later." It's a single line, not some indepth anallysis and it was never passed off as such. Try not to overanalyze things.

And again, THAT wasn't even posted when the emotional response started. They saw someone that "wasn't like us", so they started hurling bombs. Look at #442, and my posts that preceeded it.

plan for game 5:
1 Dice K as long as he is doin good
2 Papelbon , ditto.

How long could Paps pitch? Lots of rest, and if he's his typical efficient self, maybe he could go 10 batters, 36 pitches, which might be 3 innings if he's on. When DiceK looks tired, start warming up someone else, when it's time put him in for a few pitches to let Paps get ready, and let him go.

I was reminded the other day of the Yankee manager's plan for the 1978 playoff game: Guidry until he's done, and then Goose until he's cooked. I think that's what ya gotta do.