How many people were nicknamed "Wild Bill" after the famous Wild West legend? I know of Donovan (the ML pitcher and OSS chief), Wellman, and now the NeL outfielder. Any others?

Wild Bill Wright Data

From Riley

Born June 6, 1914

Teams: Elite Giants of Nashville (1932-34), of Columbus (1935), of Washington (36-37), of Baltimore (1938-39, 42, 45). In Mexico, 1940-41, 43-44, 46-56

From Holway

1932 .300; cf
1933 .328, rf
1934 .252, 3 3b (5th in league); cf
1935 .298; lf
1936 .356, 7 3b (1st); lf, all-star
1937 .370 (5th), 10 hr (3rd), 29 hr/550 (4th) , 8 2b (2nd), 5 3b (1st); cf, all-star
1938 .273, 5 2b (2nd), 3 sb (1st); cf
1939 .398 (2nd), 4 3b (1st), 2 sb (2nd); lf, all-star
1940 .360 in Mexico, 3rd in ba
1941 .390 in Mexico, 1st in ba, 17 hr (3rd), 24 hr/550 (3rd), 26 sb (1st)
1942 .273, 8 2b (3rd); rf
1943 In Mexico, no data in Holway
1944 In Mexico, no data in Holway (he says no Americans went to Mexico, but he’s incorrect)
1945 .397, 3rd in ba, 5 hr (2nd), 21 hr/550 (2nd), 9 2b (1st); cf, all-star
1946-on All play in Mexico

career
488-1429, .341
11-39, .282 vs. major-league competition
.332 mean avg., including listed Mexican seasons
black/gray ink 13/55

career data from Macmillan 8th
251 g, 915 ab, 287 hits, 33 2b, 21 3b, 20 hr, 22 sb, .314 ba, .461 sa

As with Ray Dandridge, Mexican data will be crucial to an accurate evaluation of Wright.

I forgot about Hallahan, Ivan, though I shouldn't have because he's probably more famous than Donovan.

Mexican League Info for Wild Bill Wright.


LG LG LG
YEAR TEAM G AB AVG OBP SLG AVG SLG OBP OPS+
------------------------------------------------------
1940 SR/MX 87 350 .360 .436 .571 .290 .420 .379 151
1941 MEX 100 387 .390 .486 .633 .288 .396 .390 184
1943 MEX 88 352 .366 .419 .577 .273 .367 .366 172
1944 MEX 87 334 .335 .410 .539 .284 .387 .380 147
1946 MEX 85 316 .301 .369 .434 .281 .381 .362 116
1947 MEX 79 249 .305 .359 .414 .278 .366 .363 112
1948 MON 66 258 .333 .377 .419 .273 .378 .364 114
1949 MEX/TOR 73 293 .276 .333 .416 .276 .369 .370 103
1950 MEX 63 248 .302 .364 .375 .260 .335 .361 113
1951 MEX/NUE 30 104 .365 .416 .558 .272 .367 .384 160
======================================================
TOTAL 758 2891 .335 .402 .501 .279 .379 .372 140

MEXICAN LEAGUE CAREER RELATIVE AVERAGES
AVG+ = 120
OBP+ = 108
SLG+ = 132
OPS+ = 140
</PRE>

Some quick notes:
1) Wright was born in 1914, per Riley and confirmed by Cisneros, so these seasons represent his age 26-37 seasons.

2) I do not have any park factors available for these seasons, so you're seeing unadjusted numbers.

3) The AVG and SLG for each season are based on pitcher-excluded batting totals, as are the OBP data for seasons 1939 and 1948-1951. Due to time constraints (I'm going to a wedding and moving in the next five days) I used BB data that was already available in the Re-eval NgL Pitchers thread, basing my calcultions on BB/H because it proves easier to use that combo than any others when I have to extrapolate walk rates into NgL seasons.

Sadly due to my traveling and moving, I'll have ask Chris Cobb or someone else to complete Wright's translation. I'd like to have done it myself, but I just won't have time. This should at least give a good start.

Wright is another player that has some detailed battings stats in "The Negro Leagues Book" so I'll try to get them posted into the egroup also.

Well, this is frustrating--I mean, trying to compare Willard Brown and Bill Wright. Consider:

• Despite being born only 3 years apart, they played in the NeLs contemporaneously only from 1936 to 1939 and in 1942 (by year).

• Brown was 3 years older and yet Wright started play in the NeLs a full 4 years earlier. So Wright's NeL record is age 18-28, Brown's age 25-38. Except that Wright skipped age 26 and 27 (in MxL) so the only years that they have in common by age are age 25 and 28, and one was Brown's rookie season and the other an anomolously (if that's a word) bad season for Wright.

• Still for their NeL careers Brown has a .348-.341 edge in BA and the evidence suggests that he hit with significantly more HR power, though not necessarily with any more 2B and 3B power. Don't know yet who was the better fielder and baserunner though there are clues that both were good on both counts.

• Then aside from the general lack of synchronicity in their NeL careers, Brown played a lot in Puerto Rico and hardly at all in Mexico, while Wright never played in PR but played a ton in Mexico.

• Except they both played in MxL in 1940 and '41 and Wright stomped all over Brown, hitting .390 and .360 while Brown hit .354 and .256, for one of his worst seasons ever anywhere.

Of course Wright isn't eligible until 1959, so why worry? Well, getting the two squared away will help with Brown, who is eligible in 1958. IOW if both end up looking a lot like Suttles (and Brown does, frankly), then I will have to wonder if maybe the competition was declining pretty substantially and both should be discounted. If one looks like Suttles and the other like, say, Heavy Johnson, when all is said and done, I'll feel more comfortable supporting the one and not the other.

Right now Brown looks suspiciously like a HoMer (trending toward maybe #8 or 9 on my ballot) and Wright does in fact look a little more like Heavy Johnson to me (trending toward the 20s or 30s with Oms), but that is not yet a highly informed opinion.

Brown was 3 years older and yet Wright started play in the NeLs a full 4 years earlier.

Gadfly has reported that Brown's birthyear in Riley is wrong. He was born in 1915, not 1911. So he's actually a year younger than Wright, rather than 3 years older.

Except they both played in MxL in 1940 and '41 and Wright stomped all over Brown, hitting .390 and .360 while Brown hit .354 and .256, for one of his worst seasons ever anywhere.

Gadfly also reported that the 1941 MxL season of hitting .256 belonged to another player named Brown (can't remember who off the top of my head -- it's on the Willard Brown thread). Willard Brown did not play in Mexico in 1941.

bump

bump

Hadley?

Wills?

:-)

Finally got time to round these out. Thanks again to KJOK for the help with the scans!

WILD BILL WRIGHT MLEs

Same process as the previous few batches of MLEs, but more straightforward because Wright didn't play too much ball in the winter and his record didn't appear very fragmentary.

These MLEs are normalized to his own league for the Mexican seasons and selected NNL years, but are otherwise pegged simply to the NL average. In addition, there are no park adjustments. Conversion rates are .90/.82 through 1948, then .875/.76 thereafter. As I mentioned with Dandridge, the absence of leaguewide AVG and SLG data, and my consequent choice to peg Wright's numbers to NL league data instead, may cause some dampening of his numbers for those seasons. Or perhaps it causes inflation? Not sure, but I hope it's not too large of a distortion.

Wright played several ineffecutal seasons from age 18-21, none of which are included in this MLE because they seem to be essentially minor- league-type seasons. In addition, the available data suggests Wright took a few years off after the 1952 season then returned in 1955 for a couple years in a Mexican league about which I have no data. I ended his career at age 38 after the 1952 season.


YEAR LG AGE POS avg obp slg g ab h tb bb pa OPS+ WS
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1936 NL 22 OF .304 .346 .443 72 252 77 111 16 268 111 9.5
1937 NL 23 OF .369 .417 .574 109 380 140 218 31 411 167 25.9
1938 NL 24 OF .284 .329 .504 154 539 153 272 35 574 126 22.3
1939 NL 25 OF .364 .414 .464 126 441 160 205 38 479 135 23.1
1940 NL 26 OF .304 .364 .436 141 494 150 215 47 540 120 19.5
1941 NL 27 OF .288 .354 .425 152 533 154 227 54 587 119 19.4
1942 NL 28 OF .267 .318 .307 141 494 132 152 37 531 83 9.0
1943 NL 29 OF .320 .366 .463 152 533 170 247 39 572 139 23.2
1944 NL 30 OF .285 .340 .429 149 521 148 224 44 565 116 18.1
1945 NL 31 OF .335 .387 .457 154 539 180 247 46 585 134 25.1
1946 NL 32 OF .254 .314 .344 135 472 120 162 42 514 86 10.0
1947 NL 33 OF .271 .317 .377 102 358 97 135 24 382 83 9.1
1948 NL 34 OF .295 .334 .362 120 419 124 151 24 443 88 11.2
1949 NL 35 OF .236 .275 .347 137 480 113 167 26 506 66 8.0
1950 NL 36 OF .274 .322 .356 118 414 114 147 29 443 78 9.9
1951 NL 37 OF .314 .352 .468 56 197 62 92 12 209 119 8.2
1952 NL 38 OF .291 .345 .377 62 217 63 82 18 234 100 6.4
=====================================================================
TOTAL .296 .347 .419 2080 7282 2157 3052 562 7844 111 257.8
</pre>

I think that Wright's SLG may be coming in a little low, though I think .419 is closer than .519. Wright appears to have been a line-drive hitter rather than a big-fly guy, though that could be a context of his home parks as well.

I'm linking him with Manush or Cuyler mentally as corner outfielders who hit for good average, didn't walk much but had a good enough eye enough to keep pitchers honest, and who wielded gap power. Speedwise, he was probably faster than Manush, but not as fast as Cuyler.

Does that seem about right to everyone? As ever, your feedback is much appreciated.

That looks about right to me. The slugging seems a bit low, but when I did some preliminary work on Wright, the slugging numbers I was getting seem a bit low, so your conversions are not getting anything that mine didn't.

Thanks, Chris!

I think at this point, we've at least got a working MLE for the major currently eleigible NgL hitters coming up for election through 1959.

I'm going to post revised numbers on Trouppe and Dandridge when I get a chance, and perhaps take a second crack at Easter as well.

But it's enough to keep the discussions flowing on these guys.

Wright 258/26-23-23/109

Manush 285/35-28-27/128
Cuyler 292/34-29-26/116

Not quite? How about (among corner fielders)...

Gary Matthews 257/25-24-23/101 (total differential of 9)
Dusty Baker 245/24-23-22/99 (26)
Willie Horton 234/28-21-20/105 (31)
Del Ennis 233/27-26-26/112 (35)
Greg Luzinski 247/30-28-27/121 (35)

Ken Griffey, Sr. 259/25-25-23/111 (4)
Tony Phillips 268/25-23-23/109 (11)
Paul O'Neill 248/28-26-23/117 (23)
George Hendrick 237/28-21-21/107 (25)
Wildfire Schulte (239/31-26-24/110 (29)
Wally Moses 237/28-21-21/102 (30)
Felipe Alou 241/32-28-25/108 (31)

Also Wright .296/.347/.419/111

Ken Griffey Sr. .296/.359/.431/118
Gary Matthews .281/.364/.439/116
Tony Phillips .266/.374/.389/109
Paul O'Neill .288/.363/.470/121
George Hendrick.278/.329/.446/117
Dusty Baker .278/.347/.432/116
Wildfire Schulte .270/.332/.395/114
Wally Moses .291/.364/.416/109

Put Schulte in a higher run environment and you might have your man. Or maybe Dusty Baker or Wally Moses. Otherwise a lot of his WS comps seem to be a lot more OB oriented.

1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 08, 2005 at 06:19 PM (#1530674)
How many people were nicknamed "Wild Bill" after the famous Wild West legend? I know of Donovan (the ML pitcher and OSS chief), Wellman, and now the NeL outfielder. Any others?

3. Ivan Grushenko of HK in Seattle Posted: August 09, 2005 at 11:10 AM (#1532202)
Wild Bill Hallahan
4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 09, 2005 at 11:37 AM (#1532269)
I forgot about Hallahan, Ivan, though I shouldn't have because he's probably more famous than Donovan.

Wild Bill Hutchison.
I wonder whether they nicknamed him Wild Bill before 1893 when he could not find the plate from 60'6
Or was every pitcher nicknamed Bill nicknicknamed Wild Bill?

Wild Bill Wright dnp mlp so he is not covered at baseball-reference. There search for 'Wild Bill' hits twelve ballplayers reportedly nicknamed Wild Bill, of whom pitchers Hutchison, Donovan, and Hallahan are most famous. The most recent are Pierro 1950 and Connelly 1953, whose brief mlb pitching records are most notable for their very high BB rates. At least under mlb conditions, they were Wild Bills indeed.

Bill Everitt played first base. Wild Bill Wright, too, was not a pitcher. (Granted, he may have been nicknicknamed as a young of occasional pitcher.) If the non-pitchers were named after Hickock on grounds related to Wild in the ordinary uncivilized or anti-social sense, theirs must be better stories than the poor pitchers provide, if not historically so instructive as Bill Hutchison's world turned upside down in the winter of 1893.

he may have been nicknicknamed as a young or occasional pitcher
Wild Jose Canseco? No, we live in a different world.

make that Bill Hickok
The biographical Wikipedia "Wild Bill Hickok" is interesting. I guess he considered the nickname an improvement on Duck Bill.

JTM, see also Wikipedia "Wild Bill"

Thanks, Paul.

Since I have taken this guy as my screen name, I'm going to stick in a couple of comments here.

Yes, Burnis Wright absolutely got the "Wild Bill" nickname from being a youthful pitcher. My own tendency to call him by his proper name comes from what I consider to be the unfortunate double meaning of "Wild Bill." If anybody was not an outlaw-type personality, it was Wright: he was as gentlemanly as ballplayers ever get.

One quick anecdote illustrates the point. Bonnie Serrell, a very promising young kid on the '42 KC Monarchs, had had a total nightmare experience in the PCL under Lefty O'Doul. It's no exaggeration to say that Serrell literally fled to Mexico--his experience in white baseball was that bad. Wright not only secured him a spot on a Mexican roster, he took him into his home and made sure the kid had a chance to rehabilitate his psyche as well as his playing skills.

As to evaluating Wright, I'm not a sabermetrics guy, so I will go with Eric's numbers in post 12. But some of the comparisons that are subsequently suggested are way off the mark. Wright was, as Riley says, a five-point player. He had terrific speed and an outstanding outfield arm. He certainly didn't have Willard Brown's homerun numbers, but he did have substantial power, so the Cuyler and Moses comparisons are not apt.

And stylistically, it would be hard to find ballplayers as far removed from Wright as those two plodders: Suttles and Oscar Johnson. Wright was lightning-fast in all phases of the game. Apropos sunnyday2's post 7, both Wright and Brown had excellent footspeed, but Wright was a better base stealer, and was a far superior defensive outfielder. And while his plate discipline wasn't anything special, he wasn't totally allergic to the notion of taking a BB, the way Brown was.

While I'm off the subject, a possible blackball/modern comp might be Brown and Canseco. Both men had all the tools to excel in every phase of the game, but didn't fully use them. One suspects--in both cases--that they spent an awful lot of time in the outfield thinking about their next AB.