Here are two fine players that were requested. Any others candidates that could be considered of at least borderline HOM potential and who are eligible no more than one year after the current election can be submitted here.

Ultimate Other All-Star Team*

Some of these are beyond our scope of work and I am not implying that we should be considering Japanese players (that is, who played their entire careers in Japan).

I can't speak to the validity of these selections other than that based on what little I know of the NeLs, I certainly disagree with some of their NeL selections--where are Ray Brown and Jud Wilson?

So who knows, right now today, about their Latin selections? I know absolutely nothing--have not even heard of--some of their selections. But I especially note that they've got Francisco Coimbre in their starting OF with Charleston and Torriente, ahead of Stearnes.

Pitchers
+ Satchel Paige
"Smokey Joe" Williams
"Cannonball" Dick Redding
"Bullet Joe" Rogan
Willie Foster
Jose Mendez
Masaichi Kaneda
Adolfo Luque
Alfredo Ortiz
Eusatquio Pedroso
Luis Padron
Ramon Arano
Diomedes Olivo
Tetsuya Yoneda
Yutaka Enatsu

Catchers
+ Josh Gibson
Louis Santop
Katsuya Nomura
Koichi Tabuchi

First Basemen
+ Sadaharu Oh
Tetsuharu Kawakami
Buck Leonard
Julian Castillo
Mule Suttles

Second Basemen
+Martin Dihigo
Sammy T. Hughes
Morimichi Takagi
Bill Monroe
Manuel Cueto

Third Basemen
+ Shigeo Nagashima
Canena Marquez
Oliver Marcelle
Ray Dandridge
Judy Johnson

Shortstops
+ John Henry Lloyd
Dobie Moore
Yoshio Yoshida
Perucho Cepeda
Silvio Garcia
Willie Wells

Outfielders
+ Oscar Charleston
+ Cristobal Torriente
+ Francisco Coimbre
Bernardo Baro
Yutaka Fukumoto
Chino Smith
Koji Yamamoto
Tetelo Vargas
Willard Brown
Turkey Stearnes
Isao Harimoto
"Cool Papa" Bell
Bob Thurman
Andres Mora
Alejandro Oms

Are these players eligible to be voted on for our elections? While I'm all for learning about great players that I've never heard of, how exactly is this any different from Japanese League players? I believe we agreed to not vote for Japanese League players unless they had a substantial portion of their careers in the majors (ex. Ichiro Suzuki). Why should Latin players who have never played ML baseball, or even Negro League baseball be eligible for the HOM? This can be another separate wing of the HOM when we're done voting (along with a pioneers wing, managers wing, Japanese wing, etc.)

If this thread is for more information of players like Jose Mendez, Alejandro Oms, and any other Negro Leaguer who found himself in the Carribbean to play baseball, please ignore the above paragraph.

Coimbre is worth having a look at. If we don't have a thread for him, I think one would be worth having.

Rick, this thread has a dual purpose: 1)As a place where links can be found for certain Latino stars and 2) As a place to discuss Latin player issues that would not belong on any other page.

Your first paragraph does touch on something that I have been thinking about the past few days. I think your questions are a little different for the Latin American players than for the Japanese players? But totally? Maybe not.

Of the Latino players that are not in the majors now, are there any that would be considered potential HoMers (other than Cuba, for obvious reasons)?

The main difference between Japanese and Cuban or Latino players is that the US leagues before Jackie did not recruit any Asian players (at the big league level at least), but they recruited Latino players as long as they passed the color test.

Or to put it another way, dark-skinned Latinos faced the same types of discrimination that American blacks did. Meanwhile, the Japanese leagues didn't really start in earnest until well into the 1930s or 1940s and weren't accessible to big league scouts (for a variety of reasons) until the late 1940s or 1950s.

Doc, maybe a more important difference is that we have a frame of reference for the Latinos, because some of them did play in the NeLs and/or the MLs. Up until (what?) 1965 or so, there was very little if any interplay between Japan and the U.S., so little or no way to compare. So I think we have the tools to evaluate the Latinos and not the Japanese, at least as of 1959.

In practice, the major leagues were not available to Japanese players until Nomo in 1995, so if we include Latin players I can see no reason not to include Japanese players from 1947-95. I would suggest that Latin, Japanese and other players be given a spearate wing, but if we decide to vote for Latin players I shall certainly insist on voting for Oh when he temporally becoems eligible (1982?)

I will repeat a recommendation I've made several times in the past. If Japanese players (or at least some Japanese players) or some Latin American players are not eligible for election, someone needs to draft a sentence or two for the Constitution that says who's eligible and who isn't. A lot of thought went into the original constitution, and we need to respect it by amending it now that it's become necessary. It's really not suitable to try to operate according to rules that begin "I believe we agree to..."

There's another aspect to the Japan vs. Latin Leagues question: contractural obligations. At this time, IIRC, Japan has loosened its contract language to allow a little more player movement between continents. I'd be curious to know whether their contractural language made it realistically impossible for top Japanese players to come over here in the first place.

Brent, I agree. When Joe comes back from his travels, I'll speak to him about it.

This link on Latin America Baseball Halls of Fame might be helpful:

Other Halls of Fame

This is a tough one . . .

I say no on Japanese players at this point, not without additional spots being added. As Rick says in post 3; I thought we settled that awhile back. But I would give credit for Japanese accomplishments if the player has a significant MLB career (Ichiro!, for example).

Are Latin leagues like the Japanese league, or are they like another Negro League? I think this should be the litmus test. Does that make sense, or is that off base.

I don't know that I understand how things worked back then enough to answer that. I agree with Brent that we need to settle this as soon as possible and add language to the Constitution.

I agree that we should specifically exclude Japanese players at this point. The quota is a problem, our general knowledge base is a problem, and getting conversion factors is a problem.

I think that all Latin American players should be eligible, whether or not they played in the North American Negro leagues or major leagues.

They were not excluded as a group from access to the major leagues, and the evidence, so far as I know it, is that Latin American players who fit majors' racial criteria and who had the talent to play in the majors generally did so. Most of the best Latin American players who did not fit those stereotypes played in the Negro Leagues at least for part of their careers. Some didn't, and U.S. racism was a factor in their decisions not to (not to mention the way it made professional baseball less remunerative for non-whites).

For this reason, I don't think that we can draw a line between Latin stars with substantial U.S. careers and those without substantial U.S. careers, esp. given the unsettled finances of the Negro leagues during the 1930s.

I'm doubtful that there are more than a handful of serious Latin candidates with little or no playing time in the top North American leagues. They'll be a challenge to evaluate, though our improving conversion factors for the CWL and the MeL are helping. I certainly don't think they are so many as to make a revision of the election quotas necessary.

I don't know if anyone else has tried to look at Pancho Coimbre's record, but last night I cracked open my CWL, MxL, Holway, Riley, and PRWL books to get a sense of him.

All I got was a mess.

Some sources have him playing 1926-1950. All sources have him in the NgLs in the forties. Some sources have him in Cuba but don't say when. Figeruero doesn't have him in the index except where the Carribean series is concerned.

By the time Coimbre hit the NgLs he was, according to Riley, about 31 years old. And he hit like the dickens. At the same time in the PRWL, he hit .400 twice in five seasons (1942, 1945) and didn't strike out AT ALL for two or three years. In Mexico in 1945, he hit in the mid .300s. But his career in the 1930s is a complete mystery.

Can anyone help? I think he could be a very serious candidate, but I don't know it because I don't have enough data to do much with him yet.

Are Latin leagues like the Japanese league, or are they like another Negro League? I think this should be the litmus test. Does that make sense, or is that off base.

In this case, I don't think you can use LEAGUE as your basis. For "black" Latin players, being in the Latin Leagues was very much like another Negro League, because they were not allowed in MLB. For "less-black" Latin players, being in the Latin Leagues was more like the Japanese League - theoretically they COULD play in MLB, but rarely did.

It's important to remember that blacks and Latinos also integrated the minors after 1947. While quotas at the big league and possibly high-minor league levels kept dark-skinned players out of the highest reaches of the baseball world for a little while, they flocked to the peripheral leagues and made those leagues better until the quota system collapsed under the weight of competitive pressure, and black players finally got the same kind of upward mobility as white guys.

To me the difference is that enough NeLs and Latinos crossed paths that we have a frame of reference--that is, conversion rates that we have some degree of confidence in. For Japanese players before 1965 or so, or maybe really before Ichiro, or maybe even now what with a still-small sample, I don't see where we have a fame of reference.

Over on the Carlos Morán thread I said that I would be posting information on some of his Cuban League contemporaries. Julián Castillo, a first baseman, was the leading power hitter of the Cuban League during the “aughts.” He was a type of hitter—a big, strong power hitter—that has been common in the major leagues throughout baseball history except for the deadball era, when that type of player essentially disappeared from the majors; Castillo and Negro Leaguer Bill Pettus were perhaps the only players of that type active in the deadball era.

Riley says, “The big, heavy-hitting Cuban was hard as nails and had an equally big reputation for hitting the long ball. While he had good power, he did not distinguish himself afield and was not a good base runner.” It gives his height and weight as 6’2” and 240; I don’t know the origins of these figures, but based on a picture shown on p. 85 of Figueredo, I think the figure for his weight, at least, is exaggerated -- assuming his height is accurate, I'd guess his weight at 210 to 220. Based on the age shown in a passenger list, Castillo was probably born in 1880 or early 1881, which would have made him 20 years old in his first Cuban League seasons in 1900-01. Here are his Cuban League statistics:



Black ink (note that leaders not available for all categories for all years):
Average – 1900-01, 1902-03, 1904-05, 1908-09, 1909-10
OBP – 1904-05
SLG – 1902-03, 1904-05, 1909-10, 1911-12
OPS – 1904-05
H – 1900-01, 1902-03, 1904-05, 1908-09, 1909-10
2B – 1900-01, 1905-06, 1906-07, 1907-08, 1908-09, 1911-12
3B – 1902-03, 1903-04, 1904-05, 1906-07
HR – 1902-03, 1904-05, 1911-12
TB – 1902-03, 1904-05, 1906-07, 1911-12

Statistics for Cuban League offensive context are shown on the <a
href=" http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/carlos_moran" Carlos Morán</a> thread.

Castillo did not perform very well in exhibition series again Negro League opponents. Here are his statistics from Gary's agatetype.typepad.com:



And here are data for the pitcher-excluded series context:

Year Tm SerAvg SerOBP SerSlg
1904 Habana/Cuban X-Giants .205 .280 .231
1905 Fe/Cuban X-Giants .218 .280 .230
1906 Almendares/Cuban X-Giants .220 .299 .251
1907 Almendares/Phil Giants .229 .304 .256
1907 Habana/Phil Giants .229 .304 .256
1908 Habana/Brklyn Royal Giants .204 .276 .228
1910 Almendares/Leland Giants .219 .290 .247
1912 Almendares/Lincoln Giants .252 .344 .296
1914 Almendares/Lincoln Stars .203 .297 .230
Total .222 .297 .250


Here are his statistics against major league opponents:

And here are statistics for context:


Castillo MLEs

My calculation procedure is exactly the same as the one described in detail on the Morán thread. I'll add the data I've used to calculate playing time. Similarly to Morán, it is based on the share of team games played, prorated to 154-game schedules:

1900-01 - .89, 1901-02 - .94, 1902-03 - .85, 1903-04 - .85, 1904-05 - .90, 1905-06 - .96, 1906-07 – 1.00, 1907-08 - .87, 1908-09 - .93, 1909-10 - .71, 1910-11 - .62, 1911-12 - .81, 1912-13 - .89, total = 11.2 seasons or 1728 G.

For plate appearances (excluding SH), I compared him to Flick (4.24 PA/G), Donlin (3.99), and Stone (4.21) – I decided to set his PA/G to 4.15, implying 7166 MLE PA.

For context, I used the NL for 1901-13. As was the case for Morán, the effects of adjusting for the low offensive context in Cuba more than offset the effects of adjusting for league quality (again, the quality factors used were .90 for average and .81 for walk rate and for isolated power).



Comparisons: I'll compare Castillo to the other sluggers with high OPS+ and poor defensive reputations: Cravath, Frank Howard, and Pete Browning. I rank them in the following order. Cravath (with minor league credit for 1906-07 and 1909-11) has MLE OPS+ of 147 and (converting to 162-game schedule) 2041 G, which IMO places him first in this group. Castillo, with MLE OPS+ of 149 in 1818 G (at 162-game schedule) is second, Howard (OPS+ of 142, 1910 G at 162-game schedule) is third, and Browning (National League equivalent OPS+ of 147, 1531 G at 162-game schedule) is fourth. I'm not a huge fan of this type of player; last election I had Cravath 13th and Howard 22nd (and Browning about 60th). I'll probably slot Castillo in just off the end of the 15-player ballot.

Excellent work, Brent.
Amazing how many dozens of people make this project better....

A few days ago, the 2004 ballot discussion thread featured a debate about whether Al Cabrera (born in the Canary Islands; longtime Cuban League player) could claim to be the first “Latin American” player with the St. Louis Cardinals. Although the social scientist in me may wish to keep that debate going, I decided instead to post some information about a player who is probably unfamiliar to most readers of this blog.

Alfredo Cabrera (nickname “Pájaro,” which is “Bird” in English) was a shortstop and first baseman who played 19 seasons in the Cuban League from 1901 to 1920. He first played in the United States in 1903-05 with the All Cubans, an integrated barnstorming team that provided the U.S. its first widespread exposure to Cuban League players. He played for minor league teams in New Britain, Waterbury, and Springfield from 1908 to 1915 and made it into the major league record books with one game for the 1913 St. Louis Cardinals at the age of 32.

Here’s his actual Cuban League batting record:


p = pennant
Sources: 1904-05, 1905-06, and 1906-07 from data compiled by Gary Ashwill posted on agatetype.typepad.com. Other seasons from Jorge S. Figueredo, Cuban Baseball: A Statistical History, 1878-1961.

The average league hitting context (excluding pitchers) over his career was .233 (batting) and .281 (slugging).

Gary’s site also shows complete data for eight series that he participated in during 1904-14 between American Negro League and Cuban League teams.



Gary also presents statistics from series played in Cuba between Cuban League and major league teams:



Unfortunately, I don’t have Cabrera’s minor league statistics. However, I tried using the same methods for calculating MLEs that I used for Carlos Morán. It’s clear that Cabrera didn’t hit enough to have been a major league first baseman, so I limited the conversion to his 1904-05 thru 1912-13 seasons (converted to the 1905-13 NL). During those seasons, Cabrera played about 90% of his team’s games, so I show him with 1246 games, and assumed 3.65 PA (excluding SH) per game.

Here are Cabrera’s career MLEs:



Of course, throughout baseball history there have been shortstops who’ve been able to put together major league careers with similar (or worse) batting statistics. During Cabrera’s time, examples include Mickey Doolan (1728 G, 72 OPS+) and George McBride (1659 G, 65 OPS+). On the other hand, Cabrera’s hitting was close enough to replacement level that, even if he’d been given a major league opportunity at age 24, a sustained slump could easily have sent him back to the minors. And during that era, players were seldom given second chances.

How was Cabrera as a fielder? Roberto González Echevarría, author of The Pride of Havana, thinks highly of him. He includes Cabrera with José Méndez and Julián Castillo as the three greatest Cuban League stars of the aughts, and lists Cabrera with Luis Bustamante (a contemporary black player) and Silvio García as the greatest defensive shortstops in Cuban League history. It also can be noted that during Cabrera’s 7 seasons as shortstop with the Almendares Blues, they won 5 pennants, fielding a team that was weak with the bat and strong on pitching and defense. (And the pennants weren’t entirely attributable to Méndez—the first two pennants came before he joined the team.) Gary’s posted defensive statistics for the series and seasons; I haven’t systematically analyzed them, but they seem to support the view of Cabrera as a good fielder.

As has been discussed on the Dolf Luque thread, early white Cuban players endured considerable prejudice. In a more just world, Cabrera would have gotten a chance in the majors several years earlier (as would Home Run Johnson, Pop Lloyd, and Luis Bustamante). I can’t blame the Cardinals for not taking him in 1913, though—at age 32, his age must have been showing.

In Cuba, Cabrera went on to manage for at least five seasons, winning at least two pennants (in 1915-16 and 1925-26). He also served as an umpire, and by the 1940s and 50s was head groundskeeper of Gran Stadium in Havana. In 1942 he was elected to the Cuban Hall of Fame.

Cabrera obviously wasn't a HoMer, or even a candidate for the HOVG. I do think, however, that Cabrera deserves to be better known than just as the answer to a trivia question. On the other hand, he wasn’t the only deadball era shortstop who didn’t get a fair trial in the majors—besides the obvious NeLgers, PCL slugger Truck Eagan was another shortstop who would have been an outstanding major league hitter if he'd had the chance.

Brent,

Do you know what MiLs Cabrera was in?

New Britain, Waterbury, and Springfield from 1908 to 1915

Working toward an answer of my own question I went to Mike McCann's page and looked quickly for candidate leagues.

Central League
-Springfield, IL (I think), had a team in the 1912-1914 Central League

Connecticut Association/Eastern Association
-Waterbury, CT, had a team in the 1908-1914
-New Britain, CT, had a team from 1908-1912.
-Springfield, MA (I think), had a team from 1908-1914.

3-I League
-Springfield had a team from 1908-1914

Twin States League
-There is this entry for this short-lived league: Springfield-Charlestown
Hyphens. A typhography dream team?

Eastern Illinois League
-From 1907-1908, Springfield did not have a team...but Shelbyville did!

He played in the Connecticut League/Eastern Association. You can see several references to Cabrera in various editions of the Library of Congress Spalding Base Ball Guides; unfortunately, during those years Spalding published the minor league statistics in a separate volume, (which cost an addition 10 cents--you can look it up!)

Another interesting place to look for information on the early years of Cuban players in organized baseball is a new biography of Armando Marsans by Peter Toot. If you go to Google Books and search for "alfredo cabrera" and "new britain," it should pop up. Of course you can only read a few pages, but the pages I read sure painted an interesting picture of the prejudices that early Latino players faced playing in America. This book definitely goes on my wish list.

Scratch "new"--I just looked at the Marsans book on Amazon and noticed that it was published in 2003. Please replace with "new to me" :-)

I guess a great thing about Google Books is that you come across books you otherwise would've missed.

Central League
-Springfield, IL (I think), had a team in the 1912-1914 Central League

I would have guessed Ohio and that fits Springfield IL in the III League.

Mike McCann now chairs the SABR Minor Leagues Cmte. Probably they should compile all this sharing a "city" code with the Biographical database.