Note that the WARP3 numbers are not updated from last summer.

I was going to post some general points I had found about some of the candidates I mentioned but I found an article that summarized the general points I have found so far.

null

All the sources of information I have found for Pedro Cepeda highlight the reason why he never played in the U.S. and for Francisco Coimbre the fact he hardly struck out.

Still a lot more searching to do.Article about latino pioneers

Sorry about the double links in the post. Still learning how to use the posting system.

Continuing now from #320, here are the new eligibles 1942-46. See Chris Cobb's posts for extended listings of Negro league eligibles.

1942 (January 2)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
278 83.8 1924 Bill Terry-1B (1989)
205 64.2 1919 Tom Zachary-P (1969)
196 52.1 1921 Bing Miller-RF (1966)
211 56.6 1923 Travis Jackson-SS (1987)
177 52.2 1924 Firpo Marberry-RP (1976)
193 54.1 1924 Fred Lindstrom-3B/CF (1981)
198 38.0 1918 Charlie Grimm-1B (1983)
156 42.3 1926 Alvin “General” Crowder-P (1972)
130 42.9 1927 Watty Clark-P (1972)
122 29.8 1928 George Earnshaw-P (1976)
114 34.8 1928 George Blaeholder-P (1947)
096 26.3 1928 Bill Walker-P (1966)
095 25.2 1930 George Watkins-RF (1970)
103 20.6 1926 Mark Koenig-SS (1993)
092 34.5 1928 Ray Benge-P (1997)
1943 (January 16)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
366 114.2 1919 Frankie Frisch-2B (1973)
275 88.3 1925 Mickey Cochrane-C (1962)
258 64.9 1922 Jim Bottomley-1B (1959)
232 68.3 1926 Babe Herman-RF (1987)
207 48.4 1920 Jesse Haines-P (1978)
186 52.9 1925 Chick Hafey-LF (1973)
173 43.3 1923 Rube Walberg-P (1978)
145 45.8 1923 Bob Smith-P/SS (1987)
134 38.3 1928 Pat Malone-P (1943)
135 37.0 1926 Tommy Thomas-P (1988)
124 38.4 1923 Jimmie Wilson-C (1947)
126 31.5 1927 Fred Schulte-CF (1983)
122 31.9 1929 Roy Johnson-LF/RF (1973)
111 35.7 1927 Shanty Hogan-C (1967)
103 31.4 1925 Lloyd Brown-P (1974)
094 34.1 1928 Ben Cantwell-P (1962)
094 25.5 1928 Vic Sorrell-P (1972)
Negro Lg 1915 Oscar Charleston-CF (1954)
Negro Lg 1923 Bill Foster-P (1978)
Negro Lg 1919 Judy Johnson-3B (1989)
Negro Lg 1918 Dick Lundy-SS (1965)
1944 (January 30)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
489 143.0 1925 Lou Gehrig-1B (1941)
355 95.9 1922 Goose Goslin-LF (1971)
292 88.0 1924 Kiki Cuyler-RF/CF (1950)
262 70.0 1919 Waite Hoyt-P (1984)
233 84.7 1929 Wes Ferrell-P (1976)
245 62.0 1918 Jimmy Dykes-3B/2B (1976)
194 65.1 1924 Red Lucas-P/PH (1986)
151 54.0 1928 Ed Brandt-P (1944)
167 43.0 1924 Guy Bush-P (1985)
155 45.9 1927 Woody English-SS (1997)
149 43.6 1929 John Stone-LF/RF (1955)
147 39.6 1931 Ripper Collins-1B (1970)
116 36.3 1928 Joe Stripp-3B (1989)
110 32.8 1927 Ethan Allen-CF (1993)
121 28.2 1928 Mule Haas-CF (1974)
102 26.1 1926 Wild Bill Hallahan-P (1981)
1945 (February 13)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
285 67.5 1923 Heinie Manush-LF (1971)
252 76.7 1926 Tony Lazzeri-2B (1946)
203 55.1 1924 Earl Whitehill-P (1954)
183 50.6 1923 Ossie Bluege-3B (1985)
149 54.1 1928 Pinky Whitney-3B (1987)
139 37.6 1928 Carl Reynolds-RF/CF (1978)
128 37.7 1924 Luke Sewell-C (1987)
113 31.6 1928 Fred Frankhouse-P (1989)
1946 (February 27)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
280 81.9 1929 Earl Averill-CF (1983)
241 72.3 1930 Wally Berger-CF (1988)
181 65.9 1932 Dizzy Dean-P (1974)
170 57.1 1927 Willis Hudlin-P (2002)
170 48.3 1930 Gus Suhr-1B (2004)
161 47.1 1925 Billy Rogell-SS (2003)
145 48.2 1929 Lyn Lary-SS (1973)
151 39.4 1931 Pepper Martin-CF/3B (1965)
142 42.4 1922 Syl Johnson-P (1985)
127 36.6 1934 Zeke Bonura-1B (1987)
139 31.7 1928 Red Kress-SS (1962)
097 31.0 1932 Oral Hildebrand-P (1977)
098 29.3 1932 Tex Carleton-P (1977)
Negro Lg 1923 Turkey Stearnes-CF (1979)
Negro Lg 1923 Mule Suttles-1B/LF (1968)
Negro Lg 1922 Newt Allen-2B (1988)

1943 class second best ever?

1943 class second best ever?

Cochrane and Frisch are certainly worthy, but that's about it for me, Andrew. To answer your question, no.

I think he's also including these guys:


HF 15-41 Oscar Charleston-CF/1B (1896) #1 cf - 9.5 - 13
HF 23-37 Bill Foster-P 6 - 5
HF 21-37 Judy Johnson-3B (1900)#2 3b 0 - 5*
96% 16-37 Dick Lundy-SS (1898) #3 ss - 2 - 7*
</pre>

For MLB-ers only, several years look better than 1943. 1941 & 1944 to name a couple.

I think he's also including these guys:


HF 15-41 Oscar Charleston-CF/1B (1896) #1 cf - 9.5 - 13
HF 23-37 Bill Foster-P 6 - 5
HF 21-37 Judy Johnson-3B (1900)#2 3b 0 - 5*
96% 16-37 Dick Lundy-SS (1898) #3 ss - 2 - 7*

Yeah, that changes things slightly. :-)

1943 class second best ever?

I think 1899 has to be considered: O'Rourke, Kelly, Keefe, Stovey, Bennett, Caruthers, Browning.

No HUGE names, but great depth - 6 HoMers.

I'm thinking I want to add Al Simmons to the 1946 eligibles list.

His career was basically over at age 37, when the Reds released him after the 1939 World Series.

Connie Mack found a roster spot for Al on his hapless A's in 1940. Now a slow singles hitter, Simmons played in 37 games (18 in LF) and got 85 PA and a 92 OPS+.

In 1941 he played only 9 games (5 in LF) and had 25 PA.

In 1942 he was out of MLB.

The Red Sox resurrected him in 1943 and he played 40 G (33 in LF), had 141 PA and a 48 OPS+. I now think that this poor season, at age 41, during WW2, should not restart the eligibility clock.

In 1944 he played 4 G with 6 PA.

Does anyone see this differently? I think Simmons should be eligible in 1946 at age 43. Or should he have to wait until 1949, as I initially had it?

Re: Simmons

Its an interesting suggestion. I wouldn't mind making Simmon's eligible earlier. The 1946 list is already filled with guys who peaked after Simmons did.

Who else is in this same boat due to the war? The only one I can see is Pepper Martin and maybe Lon Warneke, but I just eyeballed the "Last Year" pages for 43-45.

Foxx played well in 1945, but I doubt he'd have played if there was no war. Ott/BJohnson played quite well in 43-45 but their decline was masked by the war as they were gone or token in 1946.

Thanks for the thoughts, David. The short answer is, there are A LOT of similar cases in the 1940's/early 50's. I'll mention more cases if there's any interest.

Earlier, I mentioned Charlie Grimm and Ripper Collins, but who really cares since neither one is ballot material. I only tossed this question out here for Simmons because he matters.

Just noticed that you already have Pepper Martin eligible "early". I'm not an expert on the eligibility rules so I'll defer to Joe or John or whoever on what should be done.

If you already have a list of extended-tail careers from the 1940's/early 50's, I wouldn't mind seeing it. Old players trying to make comebacks is always a fun topic.

The Korean War sounds interesting. With the draft being far less extensive and integration occuring at the same time, I would not have guessed that player shortages would prolong careers in the same way that WWII did, but I've guessed wrong before.

Oh, and its good to see Bill Rogell and Gus Suhr on the lists.... guys who have seen the 21st century.

Here is a list of oldest living players as of March. Ray Cunningham is now the oldest, but he his career was quite short.

Looks like either Werber or Danning would be the first living player to get an entry in one of the eligibility lists.

Great link, David:

I do wish the web page author would remove the names of deceased players, rather than cross them off, or put recently deceased players in a different table.

Connie Marrero really jumps out. Born the same year as players like Eldon Auker and Harry Danning, his MLB career didn't start until well after theirs ended. Thanks to the color line, Marrero was a 39-year old rookie and a 40-year old All-Star.

Anyone have his Cuban League/Negro League stats? How good was he? When did he start?

I have Werber, Danning and Auker eligible in 1948, the first living candidates I've listed. (Hopefully, they still will be alive then.)

Usually, Joe likes to lean toward "early" eligibility. Maybe he will offer his opinion on Simmons.

I don't know. I prefer to base eligibility on objective factors like "How many games did he play?" not subjective ones like "Did he play well?"

My touchstone here is Ted Lyons, who looks like a clear top-ballot guy, especially with wartime credit added.

He pitched through 1942, then missed the next three years in the war, and came back in 1946, at age 45, to throw five complete games, with an ERA+ of 146. Unfortunately, his teammates didn't score him any runs, and he went 1-4 before deciding to "retire" and become the White Sox manager.

Sure Al Simmons had a dreadful 1943, but it hardly seems fair to "reward" him for his 48 OPS+, while "penalizing" Ted Lyons with a four year delay just because his five games were all quality starts.

Count me with PhillyBooster, I'm for objective standards on this. Unless we are treating WWII era as a minor league (didn't think so), these guys should be treated like everyone else.

Sure Al Simmons had a dreadful 1943, but it hardly seems fair to "reward" him for his 48 OPS+, while "penalizing" Ted Lyons with a four year delay just because his five games were all quality starts.

Actually, I have Lyons eligible in 1948. We can ignore brief peformances that occur years after a player's last season from the main part of his career of 10G/5G pitched. For Lyons, his 1946 contributions are certainly small enough to ignore. The question I'm asking is, Was this true of Simmons' 1943 contribution?

<objective standards on this. Unless we are treating WWII era as a minor league (didn't think so), these guys should be treated like everyone else.</i>

Which is exactly what I want to do, give Simmons the same treatment as other candidates. Our established objective standards are in tandem with subjective treatment of players who leave MLB and then return.

Imagine it is fall, just after the 1945 season. We're assessing Simmons' eligibility. He is 43 years old, did not play in the season just past, barely played in the one before that, played badly in 1943 in less than 25% play and in a weakened league, has not played regularly since 1939. Is he likely to ever play again? Certainly not, with the war now over. His career is in the books.

Compare him with Wallace, and I think we're being consistent in making Simmons eligible in 1946.

I thought we had a mechanical 10 game threshold for restarting the clock (set up for Thompson and O'Rourke, IIRC) in which case Simmons is eligible in 1949 and Lyons in 1948.

Yes, the Wallace precedent applies, I would think.

Ideally we also would have had an "age 40" minimum or something, to better enable players to go in with their peers. We put Rusie in way too easily, for example.
But I think it's OK to realize that WW II was the cause of this 'extended career,' such as it was. We shouldn't torture ourselves to try to keep Simmons away from his peers.

Whatever you guys decide is fine with me. Simmons is going in fast any way that you slice it regardless.

I thought we had a mechanical 10 game threshold for restarting the clock (set up for Thompson and O'Rourke, IIRC) in which case Simmons is eligible in 1949 and Lyons in 1948.

Exactly the opposite. The Thompson decision set the precedent of not having 10 games restart the clock for position players (or 5 games for pitchers). He was given eleigibility in 1902, rather than 1904.

While we did consider some kind of strict threshold, it was decided to make certain decisions subjective to allow for individual circumstances.

OK. I would prfere a mechanical system rather than all this subjectivity, but have it your way, if that's the majority view.

But I think it's OK to realize that WW II was the cause of this 'extended career,' such as it was.

This is exactly right, and I think it is important to consider this when looking at borderline cases from this era.

Spud Davis is a very similar case to Simmons. Out of MLB after 1941 (57 G, 118 PA, 78 OPS+), he came back during the war to play in 1944 (54 G, 103 PA, 124 OPS+) and 1945 (23 G, 36 PA, 67 OPS+). I think he should be eligible in 1947, age 42.

OTOH, there's Bill Dickey. He joined the navy after the 1943 season, still playing at a high level. He came back for one more year in 1946 (54 G, 156 PA, 101 OPS+). IMO, that year should restart the clock, but I could see it either way. He would be 41 years old for the 1949 election.

Some other interesting cases from that era and the years I think they're eligible:

F. Fitzsimmons 1947
L. Waner 1948
T. Bridges 1949
Mace Brown 1949
D. Camilli 1951
J. Foxx 1951
Van Mungo 1951
B. Chapman 1951
Pinky Higgins 1952
Hal Schumacher 1952

I guess I'm not seeing the logic that has you not count a Spud Davis season of 54 Games, while including a Bill Dickey season of the same length. Is it just the war factor? I think I'd lean on the side of sticking with the written rules unless there's a real compelling reason to change. OTOH, I don't get too excited one way or the other on this issue.

The war factor is a large consideration, yes. Dickey appears to be MLB quality in 1944-45 and would have played regularly but for the war. He resumed his career after the war ended.

Davis appears to have been finished, only playing in 1944-45 due to the war. He was done when the real players returned.

The other main consideration is playing time. Dickey's 156 PA indicate he probably started about 2/3 of his 54 games. Davis' 103 PA indicate he started about 1/3 of his 54 games.

As stated earlier, this is all in staying with the written rules, wherein a subjective judgement is made for players who leave MLB then return to play more than a token amount.

I agree with Dan G's interpretation of the war, especially w/regard to Simmons.

Basically once the eligiblity clock is started (after the 1940 season for Simmons), we only restart it in extraordinary circumstances (meaning the player comes back to play full time). Simmons only played in 1943 because of the war, he clearly wasn't a major league player anymore. I don't think that should restart his clock. I would have Simmons eligible in 1946.

I also wouldn't restart Lyons' clock in 1946, even if he only stopped playing because of the war. I don't think this precludes anyone from giving him war-time credit either if they feel it's appropriate, but he pitched 5 games after 1942. He should be eligible in 1948.

Dickey is the toughest case. He was clearly still a major calibre player in 1942 after everyone else left for the war. He played 1943 and quite well, obviously that needs a huge discount, but he was still playing. The question is whether or not to restart his clock in 1946. Here I would. He was still a good player, and his 1946 season shows that Dickey should get some credit for 1944-45 while he was in the military, and unlike Lyons it's in significant playing time. I'd set Dickey as eligible in 1952. It's is extremely likely that Dickey would have played in 1944 and 1945 if there wasn't a war, so I don't think his eligibility ever should have started (Ted Williams doesn't have an eligibility clock started in 1943, for example).

Well, Spud Davis nearly as tough as Dickey. But in the end, it's obvious that he was finished after 1941, and only played in 1944-45 because of the war (despite his outstanding 1944 performance in limited PT), so I'd set him as eligible in 1947.

Joe, looks like we see eye-to-eye on these candidates. One more: What do you think of Jimmie Foxx? I'm thinking that his 89 G, 248 PA, 112 OPS+ in 1945 should restart his eligibility clock.

Chris Cobb, quick question about Alejandro Oms. Riley's got him listed as playing until 1935, so should he first be eligible in 1941? Or was 1935 a token appearance of some sort that would allow him to come on the ballot in 1940?

Not to get too far ahead of the project, but ... Oms could be a tough candidate to get a handle on because there seems to be some curious discrepancies and contingencies out there:
-I9s sees his career as lasting until 1931
-Riley's got him playing in the Negro Leagues until 1935, but isn't at all clear on why Oms stopped playing stateside in 1935
-Oms appears to have played at a high level for another five to ten years in Cuba
-James lists him as fifth in RF, though Oms gained his fame as a CF
-Contemporary accounts described Oms as having a style of play similar to Paul Waner.

We'll have some fun sorting him out!

16% 17-35 Alejandro Oms-CF(1895) #5 rf - 0- 3

It looks like he is eligible in 1940 due to the age-45 rule for Negro leaguers. I would guess that the teams he played for after 1935 were lesser than the top Cuban teams.

Thanks DanG!

The thread has now been restored up to post #192.

Continuing now from #346, here are the new eligibles 1946-50. See Chris Cobb's posts for extended listings of Negro league eligibles. I thought I would post this now to keep the thread from going AWOL.

1946 (February 27)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
375 112.4 1924 Al Simmons-LF/CF (1956)
280 81.9 1929 Earl Averill-CF (1983)
241 72.3 1930 Wally Berger-CF (1988)
181 65.9 1932 Dizzy Dean-P (1974)
170 57.1 1927 Willis Hudlin-P (2002)
170 48.3 1930 Gus Suhr-1B (2004)
161 47.1 1925 Billy Rogell-SS (2003)
145 48.2 1929 Lyn Lary-SS (1973)
151 39.4 1931 Pepper Martin-CF/3B (1965)
142 42.4 1922 Syl Johnson-P (1985)
127 36.6 1934 Zeke Bonura-1B (1987)
139 31.7 1928 Red Kress-SS (1962)
097 31.0 1932 Oral Hildebrand-P (1977)
098 29.3 1932 Tex Carleton-P (1977)
Negro Lg 1923 Turkey Stearnes-CF (1979)
Negro Lg 1923 Mule Suttles-1B/LF (1968)
Negro Lg 1922 Newt Allen-2B (1988)
1947 (March 13)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
391 127.2 1925 Lefty Grove-P (1975)
325 113.1 1923 Gabby Hartnett-C (1972)
258 73.9 1926 Buddy Myer-2B (1974)
223 62.7 1923 Charlie Root-P (1970)
222 61.7 1925 Freddie Fitzsimmons-P (1979)
175 51.5 1927 Bump Hadley-P (1963)
170 51.8 1932 Jo-Jo Moore-LF (2001)
159 50.2 1931 Joe Vosmik-LF (1962)
149 49.4 1928 Spud Davis-C (1984)
150 36.9 1927 Danny MacFayden-P (1972)
121 39.8 1928 Leo Durocher-SS (1991)
111 34.2 1932 Bill Swift-P (1969)
112 30.5 1933 Odell Hale-2B/3B (1980)
104 32.9 1933 Monte Pearson-P (1978)
Negro Lg 1922 Jud “Boojum” Wilson-3B/1B (1963)
1948 (March 27)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
383 125.2 1926 Charlie Gehringer-2B (1993)
312 106.7 1924 Ted Lyons-P (1986)
245 63.6 1927 Lloyd Waner-CF (1982)
218 71.9 1929 Larry French-P (1987)
192 59.3 1928 Sam West-CF (1985)
185 59.5 1930 Lefty Gomez-P (1989)
162 55.6 1933 Billy Werber-3B (living)
162 50.5 1934 Red Rolfe-3B (1969)
138 36.9 1932 Bruce Campbell-RF (1995)
111 42.3 1934 Harry Danning-C (living)
116 40.8 1930 Clint Brown-RP (1955)
118 40.5 1934 George Selkirk-RF/LF (1987)
120 39.3 1933 Elden Auker-P (living)
101 32.8 1934 Hank Leiber-CF (1993)
085 32.4 1935 Babe Phelps-C (1992)
099 20.5 1930 Eric McNair-SS (1949)
Negro Lg 1922 Cool Papa Bell-CF (1991)
1949 (April 10)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
305 99.7 1928 Carl Hubbell-P (1988)
252 92.0 1928 Dick Bartell-SS (1995)
238 78.6 1928 Chuck Klein-RF (1958)
225 79.8 1931 Tommy Bridges-P (1968)
220 70.9 1931 Lon Warneke-P (1976)
079 31.1 1935 Mace Brown-RP (2002)
104 22.4 1935 Rip Radcliff-LF (1962)
Negro Lg 1920 Biz Mackey-C (1959)
1950 (April 24)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
423 125.8 1926 Paul Waner-RF (1965)
333 104.2 1926 Joe Cronin-SS (1984)
145 46.2 1932 Johnny Allen-P (1959)
144 46.3 1935 Ival Goodman-RF (1984)
130 42.1 1933 Frank Demaree-RF/CF
127 35.0 1923 Johnny Cooney-CF/P (1986)
095 30.9 1937 Cliff Melton-P (1986)
082 28.8 1930 Joe Heving-RP (1970)
Negro Lg 1923 Martin Dihigo-RF/P (1971)
Negro Lg 1921 George Scales-2B (1976)

Whew, still more SERIOUS Negro Leaguer action there.
I'm glad we won't have too many more of those years where I wasn't all that thrilled to be electing anybody at all....

Thanks for the update, Dan!

It's nice to see guys like Werber, Danning and Auker on the list, who hopefully will still be around when they become eligible. Of course, they probably won't get a single vote, but that's beside the point.

Anyway, who will become the first living HoMer? Stan Musial? Ralph Kiner? Does Double-Duty Radcliffe have a chance of getting elected?

New eligibles 1951-55.

1951 (May 8)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
435 134.9 1927 Jimmie Foxx-1B (1967)
287 95.5 1933 Bob Johnson-LF (1982)
216 77.5 1934 Harlond Clift-3B (1992)
233 71.6 1930 Ben Chapman-CF/RF (1993)
231 70.0 1931 Paul Derringer-P (1987)
224 69.9 1934 Dolph Camilli-1B (1997)
206 73.4 1929 Rick Ferrell-C (1995)
203 60.8 1930 Tony Cuccinello-2B (1995)
165 63.8 1934 Curt Davis-P (1965)
178 48.6 1931 Gee Walker-LF (1981)
147 55.6 1932 Van Mungo-P (1985)
135 50.1 1930 Gus Mancuso-C (1984)
149 44.9 1933 Pete Fox-RF (1966)
135 45.7 1937 Jim Tobin-P (1969)
146 41.2 1936 Mike Kreevich-CF (1994)
119 37.5 1930 Whit Wyatt-P (1999)
115 33.1 1936 Gene Moore-RF (1978)
102 35.0 1936 Max Butcher-P (1957)
105 33.8 1939 Vern Kennedy-P (1993)
084 23.0 1939 Bobby Estalella-CF/LF (1991)
1952 (May 22)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
528 177.4 1926 Mel Ott-RF (1958)
314 109.9 1929 Bill Dickey-C (1993)
243 59.3 1931 Joe Kuhel-1B (1984)
189 49.9 1932 Frankie Crosetti-SS (2002)
176 55.2 1932 Hal Schumacher-P (1993)
195 47.9 1933 Pinky Higgins-3B (1969)
195 47.8 1934 Hal Trosky-1B (1979)
130 48.3 1928 Rollie Hemsley-C (1972)
130 45.3 1934 Frankie Hayes-C (1955)
138 42.6 1937 Vince DiMaggio-CF (1986)
089 29.3 1937 Jimmy Brown-2B/3B (1977)
Negro Lg 1930 Josh Gibson-C (1947)
Negro Lg 1931 Sammy Hughes-2B (1981)
Negro Lg 1925 Chet Brewer-P (1990)
1953 (June 5)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
322 101.7 1925 Red Ruffing-P (1986)
316 98.4 1932 Stan Hack-3B (1979)
298 97.9 1932 Billy Herman-2B (1992)
267 85.2 1933 Hank Greenberg-1B (1986)
234 71.7 1928 Mel Harder-P (2002)
218 75.6 1931 Ernie Lombardi-C (1977)
189 72.3 1936 Claude Passeau-P (2003)
173 75.6 1930 Al Lopez-C (living)
219 52.2 1931 Doc Cramer-CF (1990)
170 62.3 1931 Billy Jurges-SS (1997)
182 55.8 1939 Roy Cullenbine-RF (1991)
177 56.4 1934 Bill Lee-P (1977)
169 57.5 1934 Cecil Travis-SS/3B (living)
151 46.6 1939 Mort Cooper-P (1958)
127 43.7 1937 Spud Chandler-P (1990)
142 37.7 1938 George Case-LF/RF (1989)
109 31.0 1934 Cookie Lavagetto-3B (1990)
112 24.1 1939 Nick Etten-1B (1990)
104 31.0 1934 Johnny Murphy-RP (1970)
095 33.2 1937 Eddie Smith-P (1994)
097 30.8 1937 Chet Laabs-LF/RF (1983)
Negro Lg 1924 Willie Wells-SS (1989)
Negro Lg 1933 Bill Byrd-P ()
1954 (June 19)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
356 119.5 1932 Arky Vaughan-SS (1952)
312 94.5 1933 Joe Medwick-LF (1975)
251 87.1 1933 Bucky Walters-P (1991)
208 64.5 1933 Lonny Frey-2B (living)
214 56.3 1937 Rudy York-1B (1970)
202 57.2 1938 Frank McCormick-1B (1982)
165 52.5 1934 Thornton Lee-P (1997)
173 50.0 1936 George McQuinn-1B (1978)
152 49.2 1935 Terry Moore-CF (1995)
140 49.5 1934 Fritz Ostermueller-P (1957)
122 42.7 1936 Denny Galehouse-P (1998)
094 27.6 1938 Max West-LF (2003)
Negro Lg 1932 Hilton Smith-P (1983)
1955 (July 3)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
278 73.8 1933 Dixie Walker-RF (1982)
263 77.0 1934 Augie Galan-LF (1993)
217 65.1 1938 Jeff Heath-LF (1975)
180 64.4 1933 Schoolboy Rowe-P (1961)
185 59.0 1935 Elbie Fletcher-1B (1994)
179 51.5 1936 Buddy Lewis-3B/RF (living)
169 44.5 1940 Stan Spence-CF (1983)
139 49.9 1938 Rip Sewell-P (1989)
145 45.2 1936 Harry Gumbert-P (1995)
138 42.0 1942 Whitey Kurowski-3B (1999)
110 41.1 1938 Nels Potter-P (1990)
113 38.5 1941 Tex Hughson-P (1993)
118 36.7 1940 Tiny Bonham-P (1949)
123 33.9 1938 Taffy Wright-RF (1981)
101 32.9 1940 Wally Judnich-CF (1971)
102 29.3 1940 Frank Gustine-2B/3B (1991)
080 31.0 1939 Mike Tresh-C (1966)
081 26.1 1939 Hugh Casey-RP (1951)
Negro Lg 1933 Buck Leonard-1B (1997)
Negro Lg 1930 Ray Brown-P ()

My impression of these lists from the mid-40's on is that we're going to be piling up candidates faster than we're electing them. Well over half of the election slots are taken up by people who have both the peak and the career and have to go in right away: Gehrig, Cochrane, Grove, Hubbell, Foxx, Ott, Dickey, Vaughn, P. Waner, Charleston, Gibson, Foster, etc., along with others with good cases: Goslin, Frisch, Leonard, and so on. It doesn't look like there will be room for more controversial cases (like Dizzy Dean?) for a long time.

I posted the following comment on the umbrella Negro Leagues thread, but the thread didn't bump into "hot topic" so I'll repeat it here:

----

He's 5 years away from eligibility and his personal thread hasn't been opened yet, but I'm already curious about him.

Oscar Charleston.

In the NBJHBA, Bill James says rather emphatically that Charleston deserves to be right there with Ty Cobb and Willie Mays when we discuss the greatest centerfielders - make that greatest players - ever. How strong is the evidence that supports this point of view?

My impression of these lists from the mid-40's on is that we're going to be piling up candidates faster than we're electing them.

Undoubtedly. The last year anyone from the backlog will have a chance for a long time is 1942. The new-candidate gap we're in now isn't as profound a lull as the late 20s and early thirties, but we _may_ get into the backlog for the last time for nearly 20 years.

Nice to see some candidates who are still alive on these lists for a change. :-)

Chris:

In #328, you teased us with your Negro Leagues list for the 50's and 60's. Can you post it now to go with DanG's update?

Trying to figure out how many Negro Leaguers I will be electing. I think #384 got lost in the Hot Topics shuffle.

Chris, can you update your Negro League list through the '60s? Also, I didn't see Dolf Luque on any previous Negro League list. If he appears as an All-Star anywhere, that might be a helpful addition to his case next year.

Chris, can you update your Negro League list through the '60s?

Are there any serious candidates post-Jackie Robinson that didnt play MLB?

Also, I didn't see Dolf Luque on any previous Negro League list. If he appears as an All-Star anywhere, that might be a helpful addition to his case next year.

Dolf Luque's pitching for Cuban teams in the Negro Leagues was negligible.

He does has significant pitching in Cuban leagues prior to breaking into the majors, some of which should be given MLE credit. When the 1940 discussion thread goes up, I'll post the Cuban data that I have on Luque from Holway; I imagine there are better statistical sources however (perhaps _The Pride of Havanna_?) so there may be data posted that will supercede mine.

Here's the Negro-League eligibles list to its end, in 1972.

1951 (May 8)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
24% 30-45 Jimmy Crutchfield-OF (1910) #7 cf - 0 - 1*
04% 21-48 Larry Brown-C (1905) #9 c - 0 - 1*
04% 32-46 Alex Radcliffe-3B(1905) #8 3b - 0 - 2*
00% 31-47 Felton Snow-3B (1905)0 - 3*

1952 (May 22)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 29-46 Josh Gibson-C (1911) #1 c - 11 - 13*
64% 25-48 Chet Brewer-P (1907) 2 - 2*
56% 31-46 Sammy T. Hughes-2B (1910) #4 2b - 0 - 1*
32% 30-50 Sam Bankhead-SS/IF/OF #7 ss - 0 - 1*
24% 28-50 Double Duty Radcliffe-C/P (1902)#4 c - 0 - 1*
00% 36-46 Henry Spearman-3B (1911)0 - 4*
00% 30-46 Terris McDuffie-P (1910) 1 - 0*
00% 23-46 Robert Clark-C (1906) 0 - 0*

1953 (June 5)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 24-51 Willie Wells-SS (1905) #2 ss - 2.5 - 8*
32% 32-50 Bill Byrd-P (1907)6 - 1*
4% 35-47 Horatio Martinez-SS (1915) 0 - 0*

1954 (June 19)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 32-48 Hilton Smith-P (1912) 6 - 1*
00% 37-48 Ted Strong-RF (1917) #3 rf - 0 - 0
00% 32-48 Joe Greene-C (1911) #8 c - 1 - 2*
00% 36-52 Neil Robinson-OF (1908) 0 - 5*
00% 40-52 Archie Ware-1B (1918)0 - 3*
00% 26-51 Pancho Coimbre-OF (1909) 0 - 2*
00% 36-48 Eugene Bremmer-P (1915) 0 - 2*

1955 (July 3)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 33-53 Buck Leonard-1B (1907) #1 1b - 4 - 7*
64% 30-53 Ray Brown-P (1908) 5 - 2*
00% 37-49 Eugene Benson-CF (1913) #5 lf – 1 - 0*
00% 40-49 Booker McDaniel-P (1912) 2 - 2*
00% 40-49 Tommy Sampson-2B (1914)0 - 1*

1956 (July 17)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 40-50 Verdell Mathis-P (1914) 0 - 2*

1957 (July 31)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
20% 37-55 Buck O'Neil-1B (1911) #4 1b 0 - 1*
16% 38-51 Max Manning-P (1918)2.5 - 1*
00% 42-51 Jim LaMarque-P (1921)2 - 3*
00% 38-53 Lester Lockett-3B/OF (1912) 1 - 3*
00% 33-51 Parnelle Woods-3B (1912) 0- 4*
00% 37-53 Henry Kimbro-CF (1912) 0 - 3*
00% 37-51 Lenny Pearson-OF (1918) 0 - 3*

1958 (August 14)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
60% 35-56 Willard Brown-CF (1911) #2 rf - 5 - 9*
04% 30-54 Quincy Trouppe-C (1912) #7 c - 0 - 3*
00% 40-53 Baldy Souell-3B (1913)0 - 3*

1959 (August 28)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 27-53 Satchel Paige-P (1906) 2 – 1*
HF 33-53 Ray Dandridge-3B (1913) #1 3b 0 - 1*
52% 32-56 Wild Bill Wright-OF (1914) #4 rf 0 - 4*
00% 37-53 Dave Barnhill-P (1914)1 - 1*

1960 (September 11)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 34-54 Leon Day-P (1916) 2.5 - 3*
00% 31-54 Silvio Garcia-SS/3B/P (1914) #9 ss 0 - 1*
32% 42-54 Sam Jethroe-CF (1922)1942-58* 3 - 5*

1961 (September 18)—elect 1?
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 38-55 Pee Wee Butts-SS (1919) #6 ss – 0 – 1*

1962 (October 2)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 45-56 Jackie Robinson-2B/3B (1919) – 0 – 1*
HF 37-56 Monte Irvin-OF (1919) #3 lf – 1 – 5*
08% 37-56 Bus Clarkson-SS (1918) – 0 – 1*
04% 43-56 Hank Thompson-2B/OF (1925) – 0 – 2*

1963 (October 16)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 37-57 Roy Campanella-C (1921) #6 c – 0 – 2*
16% 44-57 Artie Wilson-SS (1917) – 1 – 3*
04% 42-58 Piper Davis-2B/1B (1917) – 0 – 4*

1964 (October 30)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 42-54 Bonnie Serrell-2B (1922) xx 2b – 0 – 2*
00% 46-58 Bob Thurman-OF/P (1917) – 0 – 0*

1965 (November 13)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 42-59 Larry Doby-OF/2B (1923) – 1 – 2*
00% 40-59 Claude Johnson-P (1922) – 0 – 1*

1966 (November 27)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 44-60 Don Newcombe-P (1926) – 0 – 0*
00% 47-64 Luke Easter-1B (1915) #2 1b – 0 – 1*

1967 (December 11)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
04% 46-61 Bob Boyd-1B (1926) #9 1b – 0 – 1*
00% 43-61 Marvin Williams-2B (1923) – 0 – 1*

1969 (January 8)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 3?-63 Diomedes Olivo-P (1919) – 0 – 0

1970 (January 22)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
04% 45-64 Minnie Minoso-3B/OF (1922) – 0 – 1*
00% 44-64 Luis Marquez-CF/IF (1925) – 0 – 0*

1972 (February 19)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 46-66 Junior Gilliam-2B (1928) 0 – 0*

It's those later ones where we can be a bit stricter in rounding down the numbers and not giving too many benefits of the doubt, IMHO. So far I've been very impressed with almost all our Negro League electees, but later on there would seem to be some for whom the evidence is likely to be very much less convincing. The HOF has elected far more from the latter than the earlier period; I would hope we are better balanced.

I imagine there are better statistical sources however (perhaps _The Pride of Havanna_?) so there may be data posted that will supercede mine.

The last couple of weeks I've been reading The Pride of Havana: A History of Cuban Baseball, and I enthusiastically recommend it. The author, Roberto Gonzalez Echevarria, is a literature professor at Yale and writes very well. The book is very informative and well documented. It introduced me to an important part of baseball history about which I previously knew little - nearly a century and a half of a wonderful baseball tradition in Cuba.

The book is mostly narrative - a description of each season, the rosters of the teams (there were usually only 3 or 4 teams in the league, all based in Havana and all playing in the same park), and stories of some of the more famous games. Brief biographies are provided for some of the major stars, and enough social and political background is provided to help the reader interpret the environment, without distracting from the main narrative focused on the playing of the game. It's the best baseball book I've read in some time. Furthermore, since it's published by a major mainstream press (Oxford University) it is probably available at your local library.

My warning, though, is that there is little statistical information in the book; stats just don't seem to interest the author.

I notice that Amazon lists a book, Cuban Baseball: A Statistical History, 1878 - 1961. I haven't seen it, but from the description it sounds like it could be very useful for this project.

Another eligibility question - when is Buzz Arlett eligible? I assume he meets the eligibility criteria to be considered. According to his biography in The Baseball Book 1991, he retired in 1937.

I'm not saying I'd vote for him, but I think he deserves a look.

Since our last dozen or so voters do not appear to be in a hurry to vote, I dug up next year's list from above.....

1940 (December 5)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
327 86.7 1916 Sam Rice-RF (1974)
286 72.0 1917 Burleigh Grimes-P (1985)
270 60.9 1916 Joe Judge-1B (1963)
241 67.6 1918 Dolf Luque-P (1957)
231 73.9 1919 George Uhle-P (1985)
240 60.3 1912 Herb Pennock-P (1948)
224 63.6 1924 Hack Wilson-CF (1948)
201 67.2 1923 Willie Kamm-3B (1988)
202 61.6 1921 Marty McManus-2B/3B (1966)
190 57.1 1921 Riggs Stephenson-LF (1985)
193 49.4 1923 George Grantham-2B/1B (1954)
156 51.3 1919 Muddy Ruel-C (1963)
144 39.7 1923 Sparky Adams-2B/3B (1989)
144 37.8 1923 Lefty O’Doul-LF (1969)
102 34.7 1924 Milt Gaston-P (1996)
105 31.8 1929 Johnny Frederick-CF (1977)
128 25.9 1922 Andy High-3B (1981)
106 27.3 1923 Joe Shaute-P (1970)
097 22.6 1921 Ray Kolp-P (1967)
Negro Lg 1909 Bullet Joe Rogan-P (1967)
Negro Lg 1921 John Beckwith-SS (1956)

Grimes, Luque, Rogan and Beckwith are on my radar for '40. I'm not crazy about Rice and forget about Judge.

Rice and Judge are obvious HoMers. Oh and don't forget Muddy Ruel, I mean hell he's a great comp for Rick Sewell (who is in the HoF!!!).

(Signed) Clark Griffith

P.S. Me, too. I'm an obvious HoMer, too. (Signed) Clark

P.P.S. And how about the Hackster among all you peak voters???

P.P.S. And how about the Hackster among all you peak voters???

He has a good case for the peaksters.

Give Rice any credit at all for 1918 and he's over 3000 hits, so I think he's a HOM'er, although a borderline one, below Beckley.

Incidentally, I've just been re-reading the Red Sox 1918 book and there are two types of service missed in 1918 -- military service and war work. Aparently Shoeless Joe, for example, was much criticised for going into a shipyard and thereby avoiding the draft. Those who take a "West Point" view of the nobility of military service (which I also partially do) and give credit more readily accordingly, should be careful and not give spurious rewards to draft-dodgers!

Those who take a "West Point" view of the nobility of military service (which I also partially do) and give credit more readily accordingly, should be careful and not give spurious rewards to draft-dodgers!

I can't argue with that point.

Give Rice any credit at all for 1918 and he's over 3000 hits, so I think he's a HOM'er, although a borderline one, below Beckley.

Thirteen hits should not decide if someone is a HoMer or not, IMO. Giving him those extra hits leaves him exactly in the same spot that he is now on my list. He'll be lumped with the Outfielder Glut.

I'm not crazy about Rice and forget about Judge.

For what it's worth, when I ran some numbers for Sam Rice, i did Jim Rice at the same time - and at least at first glance, I'd take Sam over Jim. As for Judge, I've got him level with Daubert, a little behind Konetchy.

Rogan looks like the only guy who will make my ballot in '40, and he will probably be very high.

For what it's worth, when I ran some numbers for Sam Rice, i did Jim Rice at the same time - and at least at first glance, I'd take Sam over Jim.

I'm also not too crazy about Jim Rice as a candidate, so that's reasonable.

Brent asked:
Another eligibility question - when is Buzz Arlett eligible?

From Minor League Baseball Stars by SABR, 1978. Arlett last played in MLB in 1931, normally indicating eligibility in 1937. However, he had just completed another productive season with Minneapolis in the American Association, 15 HR, .316 BA in 74 games. That ended up being his last season with 10+ games played. I would favor making him eligible in 1938 at age 39, meaning he is currently eligible.

Arlett is about as close to a minor league Babe Ruth as you'll find. He played for Oakland in the PCL 1918-30. He was a pitcher until his arm gave out in 1923.

Year _IP _W-_L _ERA
1918 153 _4-_9 2.70
1919 348 22-17 3.00
1920 427 29-17 2.89
1921 319 19-18 4.37
1922 374 25-19 2.77
1923 125 _4-_9 5.76

His major+minor league batting totals for his 20-year career show 2511 G, 1675 R, 2857 H, 624 2B, 114 3B, 450 HR, 1858 RBI, .339 BA.

Aparently Shoeless Joe, for example, was much criticised for going into a shipyard and thereby avoiding the draft.

From my 1927 ballot:

"Jackson played a number of benefit games to raise money for the Red Cross while hitting .393 in the Bethlehem Steel League; somehow, that doesn't seem like a good season for him"

"Jackson played a number of benefit games to raise money for the Red Cross while hitting .393 in the Bethlehem Steel League; somehow, that doesn't seem like a good season for him"

.393? Was he on crutches?

1948 (March 27)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
111 42.3 1934 Harry Danning-C (living)

Harry Danning died last week. He was 93. He didn't quite make being part of our first living class of New Eligibles. Werber (96) and Auker (94) are the two left who are also eligible that year.

He was a four-time all-star. Twice in the top 10 in MVP voting. RIP Harry.

DanG wrote:

Arlett last played in MLB in 1931, normally indicating eligibility in 1937. However, he had just completed another productive season with Minneapolis in the American Association, 15 HR, .316 BA in 74 games. That ended up being his last season with 10+ games played. I would favor making him eligible in 1938 at age 39, meaning he is currently eligible.

Because Arlett's HOM case depends almost exclusively on non-MLB play, FWIW I think the rules for non-MLB players should apply. Now, I frankly don't really understand the special non-MLB eligibility rules, but I'm going to guess that if we count Buzz's last AA season (1937) as the end of his career, he would be eligible in 1943.

I'd prefer that he become eligible in 1943 (or some other future year), because if we simply say he's already eligible and he never shows up on a "newly eligible" list, I doubt his candidacy will ever get the discussion it deserves.

IMHO, Arlett is definitely one of the 500 best players in history, and thus deserves some consideration for the HOM, though he is admittedly a real long shot.

Regarding Arlett, I think that makes sense, what Brent writes. Except it would be 1942 for eligibility, since his last year with 10 games was 1936, with Minneapolis in the AA. His career ended in 1937 playing 4 games for Syracuse in the IL.

Regarding Arlett...Except it would be 1942 for eligibility...

1942 sounds good - maybe he'll get into the HOM before the end of the drought! :-)

New eligibles, 1956-1960:

1956 (July 25)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
378 115.9 1931 Luke Appling-SS (1991)
242 76.6 1938 Joe Gordon-2B (1978)
199 69.3 1938 Ken Keltner-3B (1991)
208 65.9 1937 Tommy Henrich-RF (living)
138 54.1 1939 Eddie Miller-SS (1997)
134 51.4 1937 Johnny VanderMeer (1997)
129 37.8 1934 Al Benton-RP (1968)
119 39.2 1939 Kirby Higbe-P (1985)
082 26.0 1942 Harry Walker-CF (1999)
062 21.8 1944 Joe Page-RP (1980)
1957 (August 8)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
387 123.9 1936 Joe DiMaggio-CF (1999)
277 100.3 1939 Lou Boudreau-SS (2001)
281 98.3 1937 Bobby Doerr-2B (living)
237 68.2 1935 Wally Moses-RF (1990)
218 67.0 1939 Charlie Keller-LF (1990)
139 46.3 1943 Snuffy Stirnweiss-2B (1958)
145 43.6 1938 Sam Chapman-CF (living)
120 33.3 1943 Jim Russell-LF (1987)
108 36.2 1940 Danny Litwhiler-LF (living)
101 38.1 1935 Ray Mueller-C (1994)
108 31.9 1942 Hank Borowy-P (2004)
094 37.1 1939 Buddy Rosar-C (1994)
Negro Lg 1937 Buck O’Neil-1B (living)
1958 (August 22)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
228 83.8 1939 Dizzy Trout-P (1972)
220 74.1 1940 Dom DiMaggio-CF (living)
188 61.3 1942 Tommy Holmes-RF/CF (living)
177 58.8 1940 Marty Marion-SS (living)
155 42.6 1940 Johnny Hopp-CF/1B (2003)
118 48.3 1939 Fred Hutchinson-P (1964)
111 43.3 1939 Phil Masi-C (1990)
125 37.3 1940 Pete Reiser-CF (1981)
106 36.7 1937 Birdie Tebbets-C (1999)
061 15.4 1942 Sam Jethroe-CF (2001)
Negro Lg 1935 Willard Brown-CF (1996)
1959 (September 5)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
338 98.9 1936 Johnny Mize-1B (1993)
287 91.0 1940 Bob Elliott-3B (1966)
233 89.2 1934 Dutch Leonard-P (1983)
237 80.9 1934 Bobo Newsom-P (1962)
223 73.7 1939 Bill Nicholson-RF (1996)
191 66.7 1943 Eddie Stanky-2B (1999)
173 63.7 1943 Harry Brecheen-P (2004)
147 52.8 1939 Joe Dobson-P (1994)
145 49.2 1941 Jerry Priddy-2B (1980)
146 43.9 1939 Barney McCosky-CF/LF (1996)
132 46.2 1938 Max Lanier-P (living)
103 42.4 1946 Ewell Blackwell-P (1996)
114 33.9 1943 Connie Ryan-2B (1996)
107 33.7 1942 Johnny Lindell-CF/LF (1985)
102 32.0 1943 Billy Johnson-3B (living)
086 24.3 1941 Pat Mullin-RF/LF (1999)
063 15.0 19?? Luke Easter-1B (1979)
042 17.5 1927 Satchel Paige-P (1982)
Negro Lg 1933 Ray Dandridge-3B (1994)
Negro Lg 1932 Wild Bill Wright-RF ()
1960 (September 19)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
264 103.5 1940 Hal Newhouser-P (1998)
237 61.3 1935 Phil Cavarretta-1B (living)
187 55.1 1942 Johnny Pesky-SS/3B (living)
170 55.1 1943 Allie Reynolds-P (1994)
137 55.2 1940 Ken Raffensberger-P (2002)
136 48.3 1944 Preacher Roe-P (living)
118 45.2 1947 Larry Jansen-P (living)
115 41.7 1943 Al Brazle-RP (1973)
103 47.7 1940 Sid Hudson-P (living)
121 35.6 1945 Cass Michaels-2B (1982)
118 27.6 1943 Johnny Wyrostek-RF (1986)
094 38.1 1942 Dave Koslo-P (1975)
044 16.0 19?? Connie Marrero-P (living)
Negro Lg 1934 Leon Day-P (1995)

Ah, Newhouser. We really are going to have to debate all of the versions of what do do about WWII, aren't we? What do do with the players who left, what to do with the players who stayed, what to do with those who were in MLB for some of the war and the army for some of it.

Does anyone know what the deal with Red Lucas is? I noticed that he was in 396 games as a pitcher, but he played in 511 additional games. He played 18 games at a position other than pitcher, but how was he being used for those other 493 games? Wes Ferrell, a much better hitter than Lucas, didn't play nearly as many games outside of the mound as Lucas did. Weird.

A sample of one of Lucas's years - let's say 1931. He had 29 pitching appearances, all starts, and 24 of them were complete games. (Probably he, like Ferrell, was a little more likely to get complete games just because he wouldn't have been pinch hit for himself.) 238 IP in those games, which is over 9 IP per start.

97 games overall, so 68 of them other than his starts, with no playing time listed at any other position.

He had 171 PA. Assume that those 68 other games were as a PH, and a PH gets 1 PA per game. That leave 103 PA when he was pitching. 103/29 is 3.55 PA/game. Ferrell had only about 3.1 PA/game when he was pitching, but then Ferrell had more relief appearances. 3.55 PA/G is reasonable for a hitter in the #9 spot with some of the games going extra innings. So the assumption that he was a pinch-hitter holds together. He must have been the #1 pinch-hitter, the manager's 1st choice off the bench. That he got 50-60 PH appearances per year when Ferrell was getting only 30-40 is probably a matter of mangerial preferences and team opportunities.

One item from those '31 Reds: Durocher had 120 G at SS and Ford 72 games, with 8 other games at SS for other players. That adds up to rather more games than there were. With Durocher and Ford batting .227 and .229, it would appear that pinch-hitting for the SS happened a fair number of times.

Lucas was a left-handed hitter, and his BA was above .300 on a number of occasions. That's not very impressive in high-average leagues, but still, .300 has always been a magic number that got noticed. That's a classic description of a specialty PH (Ferrell, the power hitter, was from a slightly different mold.) That he came without the cost of a roster spot was an extra bonus.

According to my 1981 Baseball Encyclopedia, Lucas had 437 at bats as a pinch hitter: he was 114 for those 437 at bats.

Ah, Newhouser. We really are going to have to debate all of the versions of what do do about WWII, aren't we? What do do with the players who left, what to do with the players who stayed, what to do with those who were in MLB for some of the war and the army for some of it.

I'm game for some debate on this subject. I know I disagree with what sunnyday2 has posted on this subject. Too much talent left for there to a balance of win share credit/discount. I prefer treating 1943-5 as a discounted league a la AA or NeL for those who stayed and then a reasonable amount of credit for those that left.

Some of the earliest affected are shoo-ins (Foxx, Ott, Cronin). Earliest I can see this affecting our ballots is 1951 with BJohnson & Clift, though more likely it will be BHerman & Hack in 1953. Also, I admit I know nothing of how WWII affected the NeL (who left, who stayed, league quality, etc).

Here's something of my approach. Start with Bill James: "You never give players credit for what they might have been--but you always give them credit for what they were."

The players who were great both before and after missing years to military service should be given credit at their established level of performance. Oh, you might dock them 5% to account for possible time lost to injury. But the idea of say, crediting DiMaggio with 50 more win shares for missing 1943-45 is misguided. He was cranking out 32 WS per year and so deserves at least 90 more for those years.

Ideally, someone should simulate the years 1942-46 as if the war never happened. But I imagine that the assumptions necessary to do that would be so enormous as to render the results practically useless.

What about preserving the team and league totals of win shares? Forget about it, it doesn't matter. Think of a player's win shares as simply a rating of his performance in that season, not unlike James' early tool Approximate Value. We can take these numbers and tweak them to better reflect an individual player's value.

Obviously, if DiMaggio was playing in 1943 there would be someone else who wasn't. But we don't really care much about those war time replacement players, so why bother to figure out who the losers are? As David suggests, just treat the leagues 1943-45 (and to a lesser degree 1942 and 1946) as discounted leagues for those who played.

I agree with James that we should give credit to "any player who is clearly a major league player, but who is prevented from playing in the major leagues by forces beyond his control."

Re: Red Lucas

Thanks OCF and Chris!

I agree with James that we should give credit to "any player who is clearly a major league player, but who is prevented from playing in the major leagues by forces beyond his control."

Bingo.

Yesterday I processed DanG's 1951-1960 tables of New Eligibles. By the way, I counted 16 people elected to the Hall of Fame as MLB players (not Al Lopez or Satchel Paige).
Elig cWS Name
1952 528 Mel Ott
1951 435 Jimmie Foxx
1957 387 Joe DiMaggio
1956 378 Luke Appling
1954 356 Arky Vaughan
1959 338 Johnny Mize
1953 322 Red Ruffing
1952 314 Bill Dickey
1954 312 Joe Medwick
1953 298 Billy Herman
1957 281 Bobby Doerr
1957 277 Lou Boudreau
1953 267 Hank Greenberg
1960 264 Hal Newhouser
1953 218 Ernie Lombardi
1951 206 Rick Ferrell</pre>
By the same unreliable count, I have 32 HOF MLB players for 1941-1950.

According to my 1981 Baseball Encyclopedia, Lucas had 437 at bats as a pinch hitter: he was 114 for those 437 at bats.

For a .261 BA, compared to his overall .281. Overall, his ratio of walks, HBP, and sacrifices to at bats was about 12%. That would give him about 50 of those as a PH. (No reason to assume he wouldn't have been sent up as a PH to bunt occasionally.) The brings the estimated PA as a PH to 485-490 - a pretty good match to the 493 extra games John was looking for. He might have been used as a PR, but not very often (and there's nothing unusual looking about his runs scored.)

The players who were great both before and after missing years to military service should be given credit at their established level of performance. Oh, you might dock them 5% to account for possible time lost to injury.

This seems way too small of a discount to me. For the guys that DID play, like Stan Musial for example, how much of a discount would you apply to his stats due to level of competition? Probably AT LEAST 5%(?), which means the guys that DIDN'T even play would be getting more "credit" than those who ACTUALLY DID PLAY!

I'll give those players that missed time their full "rate stats" credit, but I'll probably only give anything additional to those that are somewhat "boderline" HOMers.....

This seems way too small of a discount to me. For the guys that DID play, like Stan Musial for example, how much of a discount would you apply to his stats due to level of competition? Probably AT LEAST 5%(?), which means the guys that DIDN'T even play would be getting more "credit" than those who ACTUALLY DID PLAY!

Well, hopefully the discount for "playing" would be set in such a way as to simulate how that player would have done in a full-strength league. Like if an NL player jumped to the AA for three years or something. I realize this may not be an easy task to determine discount for 43-45 MLB.

but I'll probably only give anything additional to those that are somewhat "boderline" HOMers.....

I think its the borderline players that we are most worried about. Can we have a separate thread for WWII issues? There's just so much going on with what happened in MLB during this time.

I realize this may not be an easy task to determine discount for 43-45 MLB.

Davenport examined this in a BP article. This is over 18 months old, so it may or may not be premium anymore. Just in case, I'll quote conservatively and encourage you to subscribe.

WWII Difficulty

If you assumed that both the American and National Leagues started in 1939 with identical .260 EQAs, then the following time-standardized EQAs are implied (dropping the decimal point, and adding an extra digit, and multiplying in sequence):

1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946
AL 2600 2626 2618 2626 2597 2527 2502 2662
NL 2600 2629 2660 2681 2647 2591 2568 2660
</PRE>
The players of 1944-45 were playing in a league that was 10 EQA points easier than what existed at the start of the war. Ten points of EQA in terms of runs per out, is roughly 10%. So a player who was worth 100 runs at the start of the war, avoided the draft and didn't change otherwise, would have been worth about 110 runs in 1944 or 1945--a full extra win. ERA is basically runs per out, so 10% is also a reasonable estimate for how much the average pitcher would have benefited from playing in the quality-depleted environment, which again means the pitcher would be rated as one win better over 200 innings of work. For comparison's sake, the difference between Triple-A and the majors right now is around 30 EQA points and 30% in runs. So the depletion of WWII, while dramatic, did not come close to reducing the league to Triple-A level.

For comparison's sake, the difference between Triple-A and the majors right now is around 30 EQA points and 30% in runs

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but gap seems a little larger than what I thought Davenport had found in other articles...???

This seems way too small of a discount to me. For the guys that DID play, like Stan Musial for example, how much of a discount would you apply to his stats due to level of competition?

The young Musial, ages 22 and 23, slammed war time competition for 39 and 38 win shares in 1943-44. Docking these 10%, or 4 WS, seems fairly reasonable.

<i>The young Musial, ages 22 and 23, slammed war time competition for 39 and 38 win shares in 1943-44. Docking these 10%, or 4 WS, seems fairly reasonable.<i>

But here's where you can go wrong. Looking at the Davenport chart, NL 1943 was 2647, HIGHER than 2600 1939!

1945 was the weakest year, and should probably get a 10% plus discount, with 1944 getting close to 10%, but other years are much different than "normal" year to year fluctuations!?

should say "..are NOT much different than normal year to year fluctuations in league quality measurements."

year to year fluctuations?

What is the normal increase in "time-standardized EQA" from one year to the next?

1949 (April 10)—elect 2
238 78.6 1928 Chuck Klein-RF (1958)

Just curious, here. How does eligibility work for a guy like Chuck? Does pinch-hitting keep the clock ticking? After 1941, he had 0,2,1 fielding games, 14,20,7 PA's negative OPS+'s all with a war going on. Any chance he's eligible a year or two earlier? Does his young age affect this decision?

Klein was pretty clear cut, given the <10 game rule.

His carer wound up like this:
Year G PA
1941 50 84
1942 14 14
1943 12 20
1944 04 07

Since 1944 was his first year with <10 games and he never played 10 games after that, he has to be eligible in 1949.

Subjectively, one can easily see a case for him being eligible two years earlier. Our rules, as written, don't allow for this.

Or, if our rule were modified to say something like, "if the total of games plus plate appearances is 40 or less, it is considered token," or something like that, Klein would be eligible.

In his case, there is no question of subjective eligibility. In certain cases, we do consider a player's age or games played in the field, but not in Klein's case.

Well, nothing to do now but put it on auto-pilot, kick back and wait for 1958. I mean, between now and 1958 we will never (NEVER!) have to elect a single player who will generate the gnashing of teeth that accompanied the election of Bill Terry.

Elect 2 unless otherwise indicated.

1944--newly eligible (NE) Gehrig, Goslin; elect Gehrig, Frisch
1945--NE nobody in particular; but elect Goslin, Foster
1946--NE Stearnes, Suttles, Simmons; elect Stearnes, Suttles
1947--NE Grove, Hartnett, Jud Wilson; elect Grove, Simmong
1948--NE Gehringer, Bell; elect Gehringer, Bell
1949--NE Hubbell, Mackey; elect Hubbell Hartnett
1950--NE Waner, Cronin, Dihigo; elect Cronin, Dihigo
1951--NE Foxx; elect Foxx, Mackey
1952--NE Gibson, Ott, Dickey; elect Gibson, Ott
1953--NE Ruffing, Herman, Greenberg, Wells; elect Waner, Dickey
1954--NE Vaughan, Medwick, H. Smith; elect Vaughan, Greenberg
1955--NE BLeonard, RBrown; elect Leonard, Ruffing
1956--NE Appling, Gordon; elect Appling, H. Smith
1957--NE DiMag, Boudreau, Doerr; elect DiMag, Wells

Then in 1958 we elect 3 (count 'em) for the first time, and you know who is eligible in 1958? Nobody. OK, Sam Jethroe, who may not be nobody; Willard Brown, who may not be nobody; and Dizzy Trout is the best MLer. But even if Jethroe and Brown are as good as I think they can possibly be, they're not as good as anybody we elected 1943-1957.

So 1958 is the next backlog year! And I would guess that we would elect Joe Medwick from the (then) recent backlog, and dig back for John Beckwith and Eppa Rixey.

1959--NE Mize, Paige, Dandridge; elect Paige, Mize
1960--NE Newhouser, Day; elect Boudreau, Bi. Herman

So over the next 17 elections, we will elect (I fearlessly predict) a total of 2 players from today's backlog. Oh, OK, 3 counting Bill Foster, but he'll perhaps make it in his 3rd try (after likely finishing in the top 3-4-5 every year). A true backlog selection is one whose ultimate fate is in at least a little more doubt than that.

Sorry, Joe; sorry, Clark. Maybe we'll gitcha in '65 or so. By which time you will be joined in the backlog by Cuyler, Averill, Dean, Jud Wilson, Lyons, Klein, Ray Brown, Doerr and Gordon, Dandridge, Willard Brown, Leon Day, none of whom would be the weakest HoMer himself. Good luck, y'all.

Marc, I would easily see Lyons go in before Ruffing (and that's including the latter's bat).

I'm also not sure about Bell yet. He may turn out to be Lou Brock, which I then would have to say no to.

Subjectively, one can easily see a case for him being eligible two years earlier. Our rules, as written, don't allow for this.

Thanks Dan. No problem. Occasionally, I forget the details.

sunnyday2 - Thank you for an interesting look ahead.

I notice that of 35 names you project for the next 17 elections, only 6 are pitchers. Seems pretty low to me -- I'm more comfortable with about 30 percent pitchers -- but I guess the next 14 years are relatively weak ones for pitchers because it's hard to think of any who might give a strong challenge to the position players you've named through 1957. I'd agree with John M that Lyons probably should go ahead of Ruffing, and a few of us peak voters will support Dean. Also, jonesy will be upset that you skipped Wes Ferrell, who will probably draw more support than Dean. But all in all, the next 14 years look like lean ones for pitchers.


I was also surprised to see Billy Herman on your list for 1960. I've always thought of him as one of Cooperstown's mistakes, and win shares doesn't see him as better than any of a dozen other non-HOM infielders. But then I looked at BP and it was a very different picture. So I expect he'll get strong support from warp-based voters, but not much from those who use WS.

Oops, I just re-counted and I guess it should be 7 pitchers of 35 players (5 of 28 in the next 14 "sure thing" elections). (It's a good thing that I'm not responsible counting the HOM ballots!) And I suppose you could count Dihigo as half a pitcher. But it still seems like lean times for pitchers.

So I expect he'll get strong support from warp-based voters, but not much from those who use WS.

I don't know about that, Brent. I use WS and like him. Giving him some WWII credit, he looks like an easy choice to be somewhere near the tops of our ballots.

I rate infielders differently than John does, but I agree that by win shares, with some WWII credit, Herman is a serious candidate, certainly stronger than Doyle or Childs among the second-base backlog. I think he'll end up in the backlog, but I think he has a decent chance at election in the 1960s.

But it still seems like lean times for pitchers.

Yes. I think that pitchers tend to get ranked behind the top position players but ahead of the marginal position playerrs, so we elect few pitchers during strong ballot periods and many pitchers in weaker ones. We've just gone through a pitching-rich series of elections (4 of the last 10), so it will balance out. If we had elected Rixey or Griffith instead of Terry, I'd say we would have had it just right :-) .

I guess I overstated the case when I said Herman was "one of Cooperstown's mistakes." Herman is a half step behind Frisch, and personally I'd take at least 4 pitchers ahead of him (Ferrell, Dean, Newhouser, and whoever gets missed between Lyons and Ruffing), as well as the top half dozen or so from my current backlog. But it's conceivable that he could make the bottom of my ballot. He's definitely not a "mistake" in the same sense as Kelly, Jackson, Lindstrom, and Hafey.

I recognize, however, that I'm much more peak-oriented than most of the voters, and adding credit for 1944-45 could move him above the in-out line for many voters. Herman is an interesting case in that he will pick up credit for two years, but he will also lose some credit for his big season in 1943 due to lower quality competition.

1953 (June 5)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 24-51 Willie Wells-SS (1905) #2 ss - 2.5 - 8*
32% 32-50 Bill Byrd-P (1907)6 - 1*
4% 35-47 Horatio Martinez-SS (1915) 0 - 0*

Now that we're getting into the period where there was a REAL Negro League all-star game, perhaps these should be displayed differently.

For example, Horatio Martinez was actually named to FIVE all-star teams.

But I assume the East-West Games featured more than just a starting lineup. The "All-Star" notations are (I believe) from Holway, who named an Eastern and Western All-Star lineup for each year. I'd think we'd want to keep the data consistent. That doesn't mean we can't look at the East-West Game rosters, it's just a different set of data.

OK, I think I see that the data posted INCLUDES the same years that there were real all-star games - I thought they were just hypothetical all-stars for years PRIOR to the real thing.

In that case, then yes, we should just post the # of times a player was on either the East or West Roster...

To confirm: the "All-Star" numbers in the eligibles list are Holway's picks for top player in the east or west at each position, and they run from 1910 to 1948, with a few omissions early on and a single set when there was only one league in the 1930s.

So a posting of the number of times a player was on an actual East-West all-star game roster would provide a useful piece of additional information.