Yeah, he's overrated, but he'll be a HoMer shortly.

What John just said. He's not what myth and popular opinion have made him out to be. He wouldn't have belonged on the "All-Century Team." But by our established standards for corner outfielders - see Wheat, Goslin, Flick, Slaughter - there's no doubt that he belongs.

He did make an impression on me at the very first major league game I ever attended - August 5, 1960. While on family vacation - really, a family reunion in central Pennsylvania - we (our family and lots of uncles and cousins) drove to Pittsburgh to see a game. Giants at Pirates, in the eyes of a 7-year old boy.

From retrosheet:

GIANTS 7TH: Mays made an out to right; Cepeda grounded out
(shortstop to first); Davenport made an out to right; 0 R, 0 H,
0 E, 0 LOB. Giants 0, Pirates 0.

PIRATES 7TH: ... 0 R, 1 H, 0 E, 1 LOB.
Giants 0, Pirates 0.

GIANTS 8TH: CIMOLI REPLACED CLEMENTE (PLAYING RF); ....

We were sitting on the first base side and from where we were sitting, we couldn't see into the right field corner. The way I remember it: Davenport's fly goes into the corner, into our blind spot. Clemente runs into the corner. Several men carry a stretcher into the corner and come out with Clemente. But the batter was out.

Ah, Retrosheet proves my memory wrong. The last play in the Giants' 8th:

Rodgersdoubled to center [Rodgers out at third (center to third)]; 0 R,
1 H, 0 E, 0 LOB. Giants 0, Pirates 0.

In my memory banks, it was Mays that hit that ball, not Rodgers. Oh, well. On the other hand: as I remember it, the ball hit the wall in left center field on the fly (in Forbes Field!), and Virdon plucked the ball off the wall without letting it hit the ground, and made a perfect throw. If the ball really did travel that far, Mays would probably have beaten the throw.

Clemente simply was not a very good hitter at all for his first 2500 PA.

1955-59: 89 OPS+
1960-72:144 OPS+

For a guy who started young, he peaked quite late (age 32-35).

Both the AP and UPI articles on the play OCF referenced in #2 says that it occurred on Mays's ball, not Davenport's. Clemente received five stitches for a chin cut.

-- MWE

for my money what he did as a man and as a ballplayer at that time dwarfs any neo- analysis to the contrary
i know the numbers and i see the target the numbers present you

As far as Clemente being overrated: Clemente played the game as it had to be played in Forbes Field. Right-handed hitters weren't going to hit many home runs in that ball park - so Clemente used the whole park, hit doubles and triples and delivered double-digits in HRs. When he was asked to go for more power by Harry Walker in 1966, he went deep 29 times - a figure which was surpassed by a right-handed hitter only once in the history of Forbes Field when the park was playing at its full depth - still hit .317 with 202 hits, 105 runs scored, and 119 RBI - and won an MVP.

I think that applying today's standards to yesterday's players - without considering how the context of the game as it was played then might have affected the performance numbers of those players - can lead to a distorted view of a player's value *at the time he played*. Contemporary opinion should be a factor in evaluating players; it's not always right, but it's not always wrong, either.

-- MWE

As far as Clemente being overrated: Clemente played the game as it had to be played in Forbes Field. Right-handed hitters weren't going to hit many home runs in that ball park - so Clemente used the whole park, hit doubles and triples and delivered double-digits in HRs. When he was asked to go for more power by Harry Walker in 1966, he went deep 29 times - a figure which was surpassed by a right-handed hitter only once in the history of Forbes Field when the park was playing at its full depth - still hit .317 with 202 hits, 105 runs scored, and 119 RBI - and won an MVP.

I don't think many people would argue against that. The problem for him, in retrospect, was his hacking ways. His OBP was good, but not outstanding.

Contemporary opinion should be a factor in evaluating players; it's not always right, but it's not always wrong, either.

But it's really only useful to fill in the gaps. Just because they ignored walks means that we have to, Mike.

Of course, this discussion is moot since he'll be flying in in '78. The combination of his offense and defense will be more than enough for the electorate (including me) to vote him in easily.

Contemporary opinion should be a factor in evaluating players; it's not always right, but it's not always wrong, either.

But it's really only useful to fill in the gaps. Just because they ignored walks means that we have to, Mike.

No, but you need to consider how valuable they were to major league teams within the context of the game as it was played then - not within the context of the game as it was played later. If walks weren't considered a valuable commodity by major league teams then, it makes more sense to investigate "why" they were considered to be less valuable, rather than working from the 2004 assumption of value (or even the 1980s assumption). I don't start with the assumption that major league teams ignore or downplay something like walks because they don't know how valuable they are.

-- MWE

Random batting split

Clemente at Wrigley Field: 137 games, 177 for 531, 24 doubles, 6 triples, 25 homers, 101 RBI, .333/.391/.542

Although he also had 22 HR in 463 AB and 115 games at Crosley.

Both the AP and UPI articles on the play OCF referenced in #2 says that it occurred on Mays's ball, not Davenport's. Clemente received five stitches for a chin cut.

Which might have something to do with me wrongly associating Mays with Virdon's play and throw the next inning. I was taking my cue from the Retrosheet summary, which put Cimoli entering the game in the next inning. I would have thought that Clemente left the game immediately. It could be that the game log is just a little slow recording the substitution.

And were there places in the Forbes Field stands from which you couldn't see into the right field corner? Or was it just me being to little to see over the other fans?

Even if we see him as a Wheat/Medwick/Flick/Slaughter/Magee/Simmons and not as an Ott/Robinson/Aaron, there's no danger of us not electing him.

And as for the 1960 Pirates - just how good was that defense, anyway? We're talking about Mazeroski on another thread. Virdon was awfully good, wasn't he? I suppose Clemente could have played center but they didn't need him to.

Clemente played the game as it had to be played in Forbes Field. Right-handed hitters weren't going to hit many home runs in that ball park - so Clemente used the whole park, hit doubles and triples and delivered double-digits in HRs. When he was asked to go for more power by Harry Walker in 1966, he went deep 29 times - a figure which was surpassed by a right-handed hitter only once in the history of Forbes Field when the park was playing at its full depth

Sorry, Mike, but I'm just not buying this line of argument.

First of all: actually that figure of 29 homers was surpassed by a RHB twice in the deep-left Forbes configuration, by Frank Thomas (35 in 1958) and Dick Stuart (35 in 1961). And Stuart hit 27 in 397 at-bats in 1959, and in the very season of 1966, Donn Clendenon hit 28. Yes, 29 HRs by a RHB in that Forbes configuration was quite impressiuve, but it isn't as though it was all that stupendous.

And second of all: what, did Walker tell Clemente to stop hitting for power following '66? Because he only reached 20 HRs one more time, and then with just 23. Clemente just wasn't a great home run hitter; of course Forbes hurt him in this regard, but his career split was 101-139. It wasn't all that severe. The notion that he could have been a big slugger and just chose not to be is simply not supported by the evidence.

No, but you need to consider how valuable they were to major league teams within the context of the game as it was played then - not within the context of the game as it was played later. If walks weren't considered a valuable commodity by major league teams then, it makes more sense to investigate "why" they were considered to be less valuable, rather than working from the 2004 assumption of value (or even the 1980s assumption). I don't start with the assumption that major league teams ignore or downplay something like walks because they don't know how valuable they are.

Where do we get the idea that walks "weren't considered a valuable commodity by major league teams then"? Lots of Clemente's contemporaries, from Mantle to Mathews to Gilliam to Santo to Wynn to Yastrzemski to Killebrew, and on and on, walked tons more than Clemente did, and that value was hardly unknown or unvalued by their teams. The notion that not only did walks somehow have less value in Clemente's time than before or since, and that people didn't comprehend their actual value, is just reaching for something that isn't there.

Clemente was a tremendous player. He completely belongs in the HOF, and he should sweep into the HOM with ease. But he needn't be made to be something better than what he was, and twisting oneself into logical knots in attempting to rationalize his limitations isn't the way to assess him.

While, I generally agree with Steve T.'s rebuttal regarding Clemente, I would say that in the 1960s walks were less valuable relatively speaking then they are today.

In lower run environments, walks aren't as valuable as they are in higher run environments. Keeping the chain going isn't nearly as important, becuase it's awfully hard to put together a sequential offense anyway, when the league is hitting .240. Power and speed go up in value in this kind of environment. Walks and singles go down.

I have no idea if walks were/are as valuable in the '60s/low run environment. Certainly walks did not have the aura that they have today. And yet it is true that there were guys even then who walked a lot.

Clemente was not inner circle. The idea that he shoulda been on the all-century team is laughable. I am inclined to rate him behind Wilhelm, though I haven't figured that out yet for sure. But certainly Wilhelm was better (more uniquely skilled and valuable) at what he did than Clemente was at what he did.

But even a small BBWAA-sized Hall would have Clemente in it.

While, I generally agree with Steve T.'s rebuttal regarding Clemente, I would say that in the 1960s walks were less valuable relatively speaking then they are today.

True, but we are not talking about the Deadball Era here either. Besides, his OBP is not that impressive regardless.

Even if we see him as a Wheat/Medwick/Flick/Slaughter/Magee/Simmons and not as an Ott/Robinson/Aaron, there's no danger of us not electing him.

He should be in the 90th percentile easily.

If walks weren't considered a valuable commodity by major league teams then, it makes more sense to investigate "why" they were considered to be less valuable, rather than working from the 2004 assumption of value (or even the 1980s assumption). I don't start with the assumption that major league teams ignore or downplay something like walks because they don't know how valuable they are.

But we're trying to figure out how a player helped his team (or how much merit he achieved). To me, it's irrelevant (in this regard only) what contemporaries thought but what Clemente's actions did to win ball games. Of course, Win Shares or WARP doesn't tell the whole story, so looking what players and management thought about his clutch hitting and defense makes sense.

BTW Mike, I know how you feel. If someone was downgrading Tom Seaver as a pitcher, I would have a hard time taking it lying down. ;-)

Clemente just wasn't a great home run hitter; of course Forbes hurt him in this regard, but his career split was 101-139.

Yup, I just checked the Home Run Encyclopedia this morning. Stargell he wasn't as a slugger.

But certainly Wilhelm was better (more uniquely skilled and valuable) at what he did than Clemente was at what he did.

I'm leaning toward Wilhelm myself, Marc, but that shouldn't be taken as a slap in the face to the great Clemente.

Clemente is an interesting case.
In some lights, he is very much like a Minnie Minoso. In other respects, he looks like Banks/Sisler.
I won't start researchnig this weeks candidates in depth until Wednesday, probably, so I'll know more then.

I recently looked at the players becoming eligible through 1990. This is pretty blunt, fine-tuning to come, but:

1.-10. Mays, Aaron, F. Robby, Morgan, Wilhelm, Bench, Yaz, Gibson, Kaline, Santo
11-20. McCovey, G. Perry, Allen, Killebrew, Banks, Palmer, Clemente, Stargell, Fergie, B. Robby
21-30. R. Smith, B. Williams, Torre, Freehan, Cepeda, Bunning, Marichal, F. Howard, Cash, Wynn
31-40. Bonds, Bando, Tiant, Pinson, Campy, Fregosi, Aparicio, Kaat, W. Davis, Singleton

Lots of great names, I mean, Dick Allen 13th, Bill Williams 22nd, Marichal 27th (!). So no offense to your favorite player. But being realistic, there are a few guys who are a bit overrated and Banks, Clemente and B. Williams would be on that list.

Underrated: Kaline, R. Smith, Freehan, F. Howard, Fregosi....

who underrated Al Kaline?

Twins fans, that's who....

MWE,
You won't find much support here, I don't think, for the "when so and so was asked to ratchet up his [hrs, ks, sbs, etc], he did it" case.
Reminds me too much of the people who think that Jeter hits for a higher average in the playoffs, because the games are more important. Not true in the former, and first thing I'd do if the latter were true would be to try to convince him to pay more attention to ALL the games, lol. If Clemente could have hit more HRs while becoming more valuable overall, he should have.

As for the value of walks, that case could better be made for a fringe-HOM 1960s player being compared to a fringe-1990s player in a 2005 election, for instance.
Meanwhile, as Murphy notes, we are trying to assess the value of what Clemente actually did. A player who hits lots of doubles and triples has tremendous value to us, maybe even more than a guy who hits a lot of HRS and singles.

I am old enough to remember having seen Clemente play. Some of the contemporary opinion of him is based on his extraordinary grace. For those who remember only as far back as Dawson, picture an even more elegant outfielder. As for his scrambling on the basepaths, Jackie Robinson comes to mind. He was just a wonderful player to watch.
Clemente was an extraordinary baseball player in 1961 and from 1963-72. That will deservedly get him in the HOM.
But others, like Mel Ott, were that talented offensively for twice as long, basically. Even with park adjustments, fielding bonuses, maybe a one-year 'early-death' bonus, etc, Clemente just isn't going to get to that super-rarified air.

Actually, the comparison with Clemente to Wilhelm is extraordinarily difficult, I think. Both late bloomers, little else in common.


P.S.
It pains me to see my 1968 and 1969 baseball cards of this man, as he is called "Bob Clemente" on each card. Yeesh.

As for Kaline, 95-99 percent of fans today would take it as an article of faith that of course Clemente was better than Kaline, and probably by a wide margin.

This amounts to underrating Kaline, who was in fact better than Clemente.

As for Kaline, 95-99 percent of fans today would take it as an article of faith that of course Clemente was better than Kaline, and probably by a wide margin.

This amounts to underrating Kaline, who was in fact better than Clemente.

Kaline's perception (unfairly, IMO) is also hurt by his age-20 season, which he never really progressed from.

He did kick butt in his only WS appearance, but does the average person even know about that? When I think of the '68 Tigers, McLain, Lolich, hell, even Mickey Stanley at short comes to mind before Mr. Tiger, which is sad indeed.

BTW, I remember "Bob" (ugh!) as an active player and when he died, but I never saw him play except on ESPN Classic (which, of course, is just as valid as anyone who watched him on TV back then).

I remember that there was a story in my elementary school reader by the mid-Seventies (same also goes for Gil Hodges), so I just assumed that he was in the same circle as Ruth, Johnson, and Mays as a player. I can't see it now.

sunny - your list is subjective by any means. Having Clemente rated ahead of Kaline does not mean that Clemente is overrated or that Kaline is underrated. It simply means that that guy likes Clemente's package better than Kaline's. Clemente was a pretty good player

I am old enough to remember having seen Clemente play. Some of the contemporary opinion of him is based on his extraordinary grace. For those who remember only as far back as Dawson, picture an even more elegant outfielder. As for his scrambling on the basepaths, Jackie Robinson comes to mind. He was just a wonderful player to watch.

He sure was. Entertaining as all hell; poetry in motion one moment, funky crankiness the next. Man he was fun.

I loved to watch Clemente, but my favorite image of him is probably an at-bat I saw him take on TV in 1970. The pitch is about six or seven yards low and outside: in other words, right in Clemente's wheelhouse. He reaches out and just nails the ball on a blistering line into the right field corner. Then he's off like a dog chasing a squirrel, toes outward, elbows churning in that hell-for-leather sprinting mode of his, and he flies all the way into third with a stand-up triple. And as soon as he reaches third, he arches his back and grimaces horribly, a picture of pain and agony.

There was simply no one else quite like him.

Keeping the chain going isn't nearly as important, becuase it's awfully hard to put together a sequential offense anyway, when the league is hitting .240. Power and speed go up in value in this kind of environment. Walks and singles go down.

Sure, but as Grandma says, this really overstates just how low-scoring conditions were in the 1963-68 period, especially in the NL. The league batting averages in Forbes Field for those years were: .255, .263, .259, .265, .259, and .251. It never got anywhere close to .240. NL scoring overall in 1964, 1965, and 1966 was higher than in the following seasons since: 1971, 1972, 1976, 1978, 1981, 1988, 1989, and 1992.

Obviously the conditions of every era are unique, and must be brought into consideration. But they must be done so properly. To assume that the scoring environment of Forbes Field in the mid-1960s was exceptionally low is to bring an assumption to bear that isn't justified by the facts.

Overrated?
only because he is rated so highly (thanks to Lewis Carroll)

When Life magazine put him on the cover, he was underrated, maybe the most underrated player in baseball. I don't recall whether Life said it in those words but that is the message I recall.

Clemente is on the city maps, and in the school curriculum if that's true, as a national and ethnic figure, not only a great baseball player. That's easy to understand.
I suppose that Frank Robinson is not in the curriculum and I guess that he rarely recommended as the subject for a school paper during black history month. If I'm right, I guess it's because baseball is for boys. By the time, if ever, that the field of segregation and integration includes management, control, power, baseball isn't important enough to carry the illustration. We have the Supreme Court for that.

--
One SABR-L regular from the older generation represented here, probably Dick Adams, has called him "Bobby Clemente" and remarked that hearing or reading "Roberto" feels strange.

We have the Supreme Court for that.

I'm not sure there is a valid point in this paragraph. The Supreme Court certainly doesn't make the point. It has enough symbolic value to get Thurgood Marshall into elementary school with Roberto Clemente.

Clemente is on the city maps, and in the school curriculum if that's true, as a national and ethnic figure, not only a great baseball player. That's easy to understand.

Of course, Paul. But getting back to that story when I was a child, they did overstate his playing credentials, so the focus wasn't solely on the humanitarian Clemente.

Clemente vs Kaline is a nice side-debate.

Clemente has almost zero chance of finishing lower than second in next 'years' HOM election, but like Koufax before him, HOM-lurkers may be surprised at the lack of unanimity of his vote. His slow career start keeps him out of the inner circle and voters here are getting more conservative with new candidates to prevent 'surprise' first ballot inductions. Clemente surely wouldn't be a surprise, but that effect 'trickles up' to remove unamity. I just want to calm lurkers concerns about our voting patterns.

Clemente has almost zero chance of finishing lower than second in next 'years' HOM election

I'll state unequivocally that he will show up no lower than second. I would even bet money on it.

Ya know, the following might be more useful in another place, but it sorta came to me.

Why don't fielding stats include the following 'breakdowns'?

a) showing if someone completed a putout on their own, or if they put out somebody with an assist from someone else.

b) showing what role someone had on a double play (such as making the first out, or the second out, or starting the process).

c) showing which base an 'assist' went to (for outfielders). For example, did the right fielder get the guy at third, or home?

Advances are being made, but it's still sorta like painting with crayons when it comes to beauty and accuracy.

It would be interesting to see how many "baserunner kills" Clemente had. And maybe there is some use for breaking it down by which base the 'kill' occured at, or which out the 'kill' was.

There's not much doubt about Clemente, his fielding, and his arm, but i'm sure we can get a better picture of all these things.

Brandon:

I agree with all of your points.

I have always likened Clemente (whom I never saw, in fact I was -10 when he died) and Vlad Guerrero. Sure Vlad has more power and Roberto was a better fielder but they were both such physical specimens that you really didnt' know what they might do next.

I'm seeing a weird connection between Beltran and Clemente. Although, it should be noted that probably half of the promising outfielders from that area get compared to Clemente at one point or another.

I have always likened Clemente (whom I never saw, in fact I was -10 when he died) and Vlad Guerrero.

Ha, I was just gonna post the same thing (I also was -10). Vlad had more power and better control of the strikezone, but both are strong armed right fielders who hit for a high average and didn't walk a lot.

How was Clemente's range? I always hear people talk about his D, but all they ever say is that he had a strong arm.

>sunny - your list is subjective by any means.

Well, it's my list.

I can perhaps shed a bit of light on the "Bobby" Clemente issue. I was 10 when Clemente broke into the Bucco lineup in 1955. One of the few times Pittsburgh has used the rule V draft to their benefit, by the way.

Pittsburgh was primarily settled by poor western, middle and eastern European immigrants. Laborers who worked the mills and coal mines in the area.
When baseball began to integrate, the great majority of Pittsburghers had never laid eyes on a latin american.
In an effort to "americanize" Roberto the Pirates's pr department began referring to Clemente as Bobby; this was exacerbated by Bob Prince, the voice of the Pirates on KDKA, who also began referring to Clemente as Bobby; he would call him that name whenever he interviewed Clemente before/after ballgames. As night follows day,the shortend name, Bob, was soon to follow.
I dont believe Bob or Bobby was ever much appreciated by Clemente himself.

Pirate fans were slow to warm to Clemente.
He was truly foreign to them: a very dark latin american who spoke almost no english when he arrived in '55.
Secondly, the fans thought he was a malingerer because his neck and back gave him problems for most all of his playing years in Pittsburgh and he missed many games when he didn't feel 100%.
His pride ( he was avery prideful man) kept him from playing when he couldn't give 100%. Fans thought he just didn't want to paly hurt; not "take one for the team". It took Pirate fans many many years to get over that impression of Clemente.

I've seen some discussion about a comparison of Clemente to Kaline, which player was better.

Kaline got off to a much faster start as a world-class outfielder and slugger than Roberto.
Fact is, he was a more powerful slugger that Roberto but he lacked Roberto's speed.
Roberto ranks 27th all-time in triples; only Musial has more 3Bs among Roberto's contemporaries; Mays was 25 behind him.

Clemente struggled to hit 240 HRs; Kaline hit 400 HRs and 500 2B's, 60 more than Roberto.
Could Clemente "caught up to" Kaline in the counting stats column.
Perhaps in doubles but never in HRs.

Was he a better fielder than Kaline?
Not early on but Clemente got very good at learning where to play opposing batters as his career progressed and he had an absolute rifle for an arm; 266 OF assists attest to his ability to throw out guys trying to stretch singles into doubles and go from 1st to third on a single into RF.
By the mid-60's most opposing players had learned not to stretch too many hits sent toward Clemente.

Both wonderful players, both were the most important players on their respective teams for many years.
I like to think they were of equal value to their ballclubs.

Is "clemero" the most valuable Lahman database ID shared by more than one player?

Has anyone read the new Clemente book? Or is it even out yet?

jingoist,

wouldn't you ssay that a right-handed hitter would have better numbers if they played half of their games in Tiger Stadium instead of in Forbes Field? Sure, Kaline had more power, but he was aided by his home park.

Has anyone read the new Clemente book? Or is it even out yet?

Here's my assessment of it.

wouldn't you ssay that a right-handed hitter would have better numbers if they played half of their games in Tiger Stadium instead of in Forbes Field? Sure, Kaline had more power, but he was aided by his home park.

Of course, every player's stats are shaped by his home park (and the generalized league conditions). Clemente's triples stats are greatly aided by his playing his home games in the best triples environment in the modern major leagues.

Stats such as OPS+ do a pretty good job of accounting for home park. Kaline's lifetime OPS+ was 134 to Clemente's 130.

Re comments about Vlad Guerrero: For 30 years, every Latino outfielder with speed or any kind of throwing arm has been the "next Clemente." Sometimes you wind up with Sammy Sosa. Sometimes you wind up with Raul Mondesi.

I'm left with the impression that from where he started, Clemente could easily have been Mondesi - the fact that he became so much more says a lot about him.

On the other hand, I wish the comparisons would go away. Or for once, a white or Japanese guy described as a "Clemente-type."

I'm left with the impression that from where he started, Clemente could easily have been Mondesi - the fact that he became so much more says a lot about him.

I agree with this. A lot of the oohing and aahing over Clemente seems to marvel at his physical tools, but my take on him is that his physical tools (except his arm) weren't particularly special. What made him great was his competitive will, his persistence, his focus and conditioning (especially in the face of chronic injuries), and his intelligence: all of which allowed him to continually develop and improve well into his 30s. Clemente made himself a great player. Most others with his raw ability wouldn't be particularly well-remembered today.

On the other hand, I wish the comparisons would go away. Or for once, a white or Japanese guy described as a "Clemente-type."

I see what you are saying, but I didn't make the comparison because they are both latino. I could have gone with Ichiro but he's more of a slap hitter (and a lefty).

One thing that stands out to me about Clemente was the great shape he was in at the time of his death. He was pushing forty, but he didn't look it. How many players back then (or even now, for that matter) could you say that about?

"On the other hand, I wish the comparisons would go away. Or for once, a white or Japanese guy described as a "Clemente-type." "

Jeff Francouer?

For 30 years, every Latino outfielder with speed or any kind of throwing arm has been the "next Clemente."

Alex Rios has been getting those comments for three years now in Toronto, the funny thing that this year he's actually doing it!

First of all, I do think that's a big split. Maybe it doesn't appear huge in the aggregate, but he hit 38% more HR on the road than at home. Add in the slight advantage most players have at home, and I do think Forbes could be considered a "severe" drain on his HR totals.

Well, perhaps. But let's keep this in perspective: the most HRs Clemente ever hit on the road in any season is 14. Give him every conceivable benefit of the doubt, and there still just isn't any way you can make his HR power to be anything other than pretty good.

That's what it was. He was 5'11" and 175 pounds, wiry strong, but hardly any kind of a big guy who could have been reasonably expected to hit a lot of home runs under any circumstances. He was a tremendous line drive hitter to all fields, but there's just no valid way to twirl the evidence we have into him being a slugger.

On the other hand, I wish the comparisons would go away. Or for once, a white or Japanese guy described as a "Clemente-type."

Well, Johnny Damon was Clemente's most similar player at age 26 and 28, and he's both white and...well, not Japanese, but Asian.

Of course, they're really not all that similar...

Walks and singles go down.
I agree with you on walks but singles advance the runners

I would be wary of reading into things that aren't necessarily there, a la comparing players of similar racial backgrounds.

A lot of current Dominican players, for instance, are more similar to each other than to other players - the old "You can't walk off the island, you have to hit your way off" and such.

It IS tiresome to hear about scrappy white-guy overachievers and not hear as many such credits for players of other ethnic groups. But I also would find it silly to have to worry about making comparisons about players who happen to share both a skillset and an ethnic background.

Yogi Berra and Clemente, on the other hand, both seem to have been bad-ball hitters. The reason they are less likely to be compared may simply be because the next part of it - baserunning after hitting that ball into the gap - is SO different.

That's what it was. He was 5'11" and 175 pounds, wiry strong, but hardly any kind of a big guy who could have been reasonably expected to hit a lot of home runs under any circumstances.

Hank Aaron was 6'0" and 180. Ernie Banks 6'1" 180. Willie Mays 5'11" 180. Plenty of great home run hitters have been "wiry strong, but hardly any kind of a big guy."

Clemente's approach to hitting worked against him ever becomming a great HR hitter.
He was Manny Sanguillen before Manny ever got to Pgh.
Clemente was a notorious bad-ball hitter, regularly hitting low and outside balls into rightfield for doubles or triples.
As disciplined as he was regarding physical fitness he never developed the discipline necessary toward his plate appearances to draw walks or swing only at pitches in his power zone.

The Great One was my favorite Pirate player to watch over the years and I saw a short piece on Jim Lehrer's News Hour last night with David Maranis who has just recently written an homage to Roberto, his favorite childhood player. I'll be asking for a copy come fathers day!

Hank Aaron was 6'0" and 180. Ernie Banks 6'1" 180. Willie Mays 5'11" 180. Plenty of great home run hitters have been "wiry strong, but hardly any kind of a big guy."

All were bigger than Clemente, particularly in the upper body. And those weights for Aaron and Mays aren't close to accurate for the final phases of either's career, while Clemente kept his slim figure to the very end.

Again, the simple point remains: there is no credible evidence that Clemente was a first-rate home run hitter, whose ability in that regard is somehow hidden from us or was intentionally suppressed. Clemente was what he was; no matter how hard one tries, there is no valid way to make him into something he wasn't.

Wow, interesting review by Treder (see link above) of the new Clemente book.

I think some might even appreciate the review, disagree with it, and then enjoy the book anyway. But it's a fair critique, I think.

jd:Walks and singles go down.
y:I agree with you on walks but singles advance the runners

A good page for linear weights by era is here

"...while Clemente kept his slim figure to the very end."

In light of this claim, it's important to remember that Clemente was 37 when he died, while Mays and Aaron were both still playing at age 42. He might just have been slimmer anyway, but he didn't have those five years on the tail end of his career to bulk up like Mays and Aaron, and that makes a difference.

In light of this claim, it's important to remember that Clemente was 37 when he died, while Mays and Aaron were both still playing at age 42.

Actually Clemente was a few months past his 38th birthday when he died. By that age both Mays and (particularly) Aaron were bulkier than they'd been in their 20s and early 30s. Mays never really got the belly going, he just kind of got thicker all over as he aged, but Aaron kind of had the boiler action. By age 37-38, Aaron was almost certainly around 200 pounds, and by the end of his career he was more than a few pounds heavier than that.

But at every single point in their careers, from the very beginnings and at every stage following, both Mays and Aaron hit for far more home run power than Clemente. They were never comparable in that regard.

Clemente's triples stats are greatly aided by his playing his home games in the best triples environment in the modern major leagues.

I'd be willing to say the greatest consistent triples envrionment ever. Go to b-r.com, and look at the yearly pages for every NL season from the time Frobes field was completed to its demolition. The Pirates lead in triples virtually every year, and many times by a good margin---this is particularly true while the Waners were there. It was a fabulous triples park for decades.

I'd be willing to say the greatest consistent triples envrionment ever.

You probably can throw in inside-the-park homers, too.

REGARDING THE 5/28-30/06 ROBERTO CLEMENTE THREAD:
PART ONE - Treder / PART TWO - sunnyday 2 / PART THREE - My Two Cents</I> </I>


PART ONE:

First of all: actually [Clemente's total] of 29 homers [in 1966] was surpassed by a RHB twice in the deep-left Forbes configuration, by Frank Thomas (35 in 1958) and Dick Stuart (35 in 1961). And Stuart hit 27 in 397 at-bats in 1959, and in the very season of 1966, Donn Clendenon hit 28. Yes, 29 HRs by a RHB in that Forbes configuration was quite impressiuve, but it isn't as though it was all that stupendous...

Give him every conceivable benefit of the doubt, and there still just isn't any way you can make his HR power to be anything other than pretty good.
That's what it was. He was 5'11" and 175 pounds, wiry strong, but hardly any kind of a big guy who could have been reasonably expected to hit a lot of home runs under any circumstances. He was a tremendous line drive hitter to all fields, but there's just no valid way to twirl the evidence we have into him being a slugger. -- Steve Treder

DICK STUART:
"There must go the best 169-pound slugger in baseball." (1)
"Don't let anybody kid you he couldn't hit for distance. When he wanted to, he could power one as far as anybody in baseball. He was usually smart enough to go for line drives at Forbes Field." (2)
(1) Les Biederman, "Clemente's Clouting Keeps Corsairs Hot on Trail of Treasure," The Sporting News (May 31, 1961), p. 10
(2) Bill Christine, Roberto! The Man…The Player…The Humanitarian…The Life and Times of Roberto Clemente (New York, Stadia Sports Publishing, Inc. 1973), p. 103

JIMMY WYNN (Speedy, 5’ 9’’ outfielder with a lot of power spent most of his career with the Houston Astros – nicknamed “The Toy Cannon”):
“My first major league game was at Forbes Field in Pittsburgh, and Roberto Clemente almost killed me! Not many people know this, but I came up as a shortstop. Clemente hit a screaming line drive, and I got my glove up just as the ball hit the left field wall.
I was one heck of a high school shortstop, but the majors were another story. After that, I told the coaches and manager to get me out of the infield.”
- - - - Al Doyle, “, p. 10

BART RIPP (Sports editor of The Daily Iowan):
“[On Wednesday, September 13, 1972 at Wrigley Field], Clemente went three-for-three against Ferguson Jenkins, including a home run that won the game.
“The next day, the Pirates took batting practice and I saw something I shall always remember. Pittsburgh had a rookie just up from triple-A named [Jim] McKee throwing batting practice. Let’s say shooting instead of throwing. This guy was about 6' 8" and he could bring it. Stargell had trouble connecting on him. Al Oliver couldn’t get a ball out of the infield. Richie Hebner was so disgusted he slammed his bat against the supports of the batting cage.
“Clemente stepped in, practicing left-handed swings. Some of the Cubs tossing a ball came over to watch. All of the writers gathered around the cage. Even Clemente’s teammates, who see him swing every day, wanted to see if Roberto could connect on the big rookie.
“Clemente took his usual spot deep in the box, as far from the plate as possible. Standing still, Clemente heard the first pitch go by, then primly stuck his bat out over the plate at the next three. Each time, the ball hit the club, then pirouetted to the grass, just fair.
“Roberto then took three swings, but did not move his legs or hips, just the arms and wrists – he was merely getting his eye in. The result was three line drives – to left, to center, to right. All base hits in any game.
“Clemente slowly hauled out his familiar swing: the front leg lifted and cocked to the catcher, his torso leaping at the ball, the swing ending with his back foot hanging in the air.
“He proceeded to undress the rookie, smacking severe line drives all over Wrigley Field. Not paying any respect to a god, Hebner shouted, ‘Come on, one more swing.’
“Clemente motioned to the pitcher, wiping the side of his hand across the side of his uniform. McKee put it right there, right through the heart of the plate, and Clemente swung once more. The ball nearly tipped the button of McKee’s cap, then once past second began to rise on a straight line. It was still rising when it struck the bleachers just below the scoreboard, about 450 feet away.
“The people around the cage surveyed the landing site for a few seconds, then closed their mouths and looked back into the cage. It was empty, as Clemente walked back to the dugout, rolling his head about and cricking his neck.”
- - - - Bart Ripp, “Roberto Clemente: He Was a Gifted Player and an Extraordinary Man,” Baseball Digest (March 1973), p. 20

ANDRES GALLARAGA:
“[Reggie Jackson] and Roberto Clemente were the ones I paid attention to as a boy. I loved it that both of them could really drive the ball. I guess that’s what I saw myself doing some day. I loved how they’d thump the ball, how far they could hit it.”

- - - - Tim Wendel, The New Face of Baseball: The One-Hundred-Year Rise and Triumph of Latinos in America's Favorite Sport (New York, HarperCollins Publishers, 2003, 2004), p. 100

REGARDING THE 5/28-30/06 ROBERTO CLEMENTE THREAD:
PART ONE - Treder / PART TWO - sunnyday 2 / PART THREE - My Two Cents</I> </I>

What was transmitted of my first attempt was an extremely - and extremely oddly - truncated version. What got through were the first two and last two entries of PART ONE. I'll aim here for the remainder of PART ONE A

PART ONE A :


JOE BLACK (Clemente’s teammate on the Dodgers’ minor league club in Montreal. It was in fact Black, not Clemente, whom Clyde Sukeforth was sent to scout by Pirate GM Branch Rickey in 1954 {Rickey’s 1957 attempt to sell an alternate version of reality – and Maraniss’ all-too-willing purchase – notwithstanding}. As it turned out, Sukeforth never got to see Black pitch. However, despite the great lengths to which the Dodgers went in order to hide Clemente, Sukeforth saw more than enough of him to enable the Pirates to get one of the greatest bargains in the history of major league baseball.):
“I was impressed because he was 18 years old, just turning 19, but he had a lot of desire to play. The thing that amazed me is that sometimes one of his legs would be up in the air and he’d be hitting, and it’d still go out of the ballpark. He was just strong.”
- - - - Bruce Markusen, Roberto Clemente: The Great One (Champaign, Sports Publishing, Inc. 1998), p.18

BILL CHRISTINE (Les Biederman’s successor as the Pirates’ beat reporter for the Pittsburgh Press and author of Roberto! The Man…The Player…The Humanitarian…The Life and Times of Roberto Clemente, here recounting an early power outburst, long before Clemente'd encountered either Forbes Field's forbidding dimensions or the emphatic anti-slugging advocacy of George Sisler):
“If there was the remote possibility that Clemente could exist for a season at Montreal and go unnoticed, Roberto exploded the notion at the outset. The left-field wall at Montreal’s DeLorimier Stadium [AKA DeLorimier Downs] was as distant as the 365-foot at Pittsburgh’s Forbes Field, and the wind was usually blowing in. [Well, not exactly. The left-field line is actually the one dimension that was shorter at DeLorimier than at Forbes – 341 vs. 365 feet. However, there was a 24-foot-high fence there similar to the 25-foot-high left-field scoreboard at Forbes, and the wind blowing in may have just about made up the difference – see William Brown, Baseball’s Fabulous Montreal Royals: The Minor League Team that Made Major League History (Montreal, Robert Davies Publishing, 1996), p. 28]. Yet Clemente cleared the fence with a blast the first week of the season, becoming the first Montreal player to do so."
- - - - Christine, Roberto! The Man…The Player…The Humanitarian…The Life and Times of Roberto Clemente, p. 65

BRUCE MARKUSEN (Author of Roberto Clemente: The Great One offering his account of the Clemente's 1954 Monteal tape measure job):
"During the opening week of the International League season, Clemente ripped a monstrous, 400-foot home run over the left field wall at Delorimier Downs, Montreal's home ballpark. Clemente became the first player in Royals' history to clear the left field wall at such a point. It was even more noteworthy when one realized that a hearty wind was gusting straight in from left field toward home plate."
- - - - Markusen, Roberto Clemente: The Great One, pp. 18-19

The Montreal shot brings to mind a number of home runs Clemente would later hit deep into the rarely reached - and equally wind-shielded - left-field bleachers at San Francisco’s Candlestick Park. There were at least three that I know of: (1) May 6, 1960 off Sam Jones {and the only one of the three to be widely noted – see ARNOLD HANO and BOB STEVENS below}, (2) May 23, 1964 off Gaylord Perry – see GAYLORD PERRY below, and (3) June 11, 1968 off Ray Sadecki – see BOB STEVENS below.


==============================================================================================

THE THREE CANDLESTICK SHOTS
As I said, only the first of the three [5/6/60] has been widely recalled. I’ve seen the assertion from a number of sources that Clemente’s 5/6/60 blast was only one of four such home runs in the history of Candlestick Park – Clemente, Ernie Banks and two unnamed Giants being the respective authors. I only learned of the ones off Perry and Sadecki by way of a recent keyword search on ‘Clemente recollections’ and a survey of Inquirer coverage of Giants-Pirates games from 1958-1972, respectively.

NUMBER ONE - May 6, 1960:

ARNOLD HANO(Southern-California-based freelance sportswriter, biographer and novelist, writing here in 1962):
“At the plate, he is a slashing, free-swinging young man who gets tremendous mileage out of his slat-lean 5’ 11’’, 175-pound frame and who seems quite capable of literally breaking a baseball with his bat. There was that game in San Francisco, in early 1960 [May 6]. Sam Jones on the mound, and the Giants in their patented early-season rush, the rest of the league panting in their wake. Jones, and a few of his pitching buddies, had been throwing Clemente high and tight – which is a euphemism for beanballs. Finally Jones came in with a blinding fastball, the way Sad Sam used to throw ’em, and Clemente unloaded.
“The wind was blowing in from left field that day, and blowing hard. This was 1960, remember, before the fences had been moved in, and nobody was hitting home runs at Candlestick. Not Mays, not Cepeda, not anybody. [Not to left, anyway. The wind at Candlestick used to below in and across from left, often helping balls hit to right, while mercilessly knocking down fly balls to left. On the day in question, which happened to be Willie Mays’ birthday, not only did the birthday boy himself hit one out, but so did the Giants’ other Willies, McCovey and Kirkland, all to right or right-center – see BOB STEVENS below]
“Clemente’s bat hit the ball, and the result absolutely clubbed the crowd into awed silence for a long moment. Right into that wet whipping wind the ball carried. Right on through, hit 120 feet high in a long soaring majestic parabola that came down finally over 450 feet away. There is just no way of telling how far Clemente’s home run blast would have traveled had it not been for that wind. Suffice it to say partisan Giant fans suddenly broke their shell-shocked silence and let loose a gagantic roar. For two innings the stadium buzzed. For days the Giants talked about it. Even today if you slip up behind a Giant pitcher and suddenly whisper in his ear: ‘Remember the home run Clemente hit?’ he’s likely to jump as high as if he’d been caught putting spit on baseballs.”
- - - - Hano, “Roberto Clemente: ‘Arriba,’” from Baseball Stars of 1962, Ray Robinson, editor (New York, Pyramid Publications, Inc., 1962)

BOB STEVENS (Giants’ beat writer for the S F Inquirer reporting on the 5/6/60 home run):
“It was ‘shot night’ at Candlestick last night, and the popular theory that the Giants’ new park is a home run cemetery was thoroughly shaken up – if only for one game.
“Four hitters, three of them Giants, slugged baseballs over the distant fences, and every one of them was smashed with velocity comparable to the winds which whipped through the park all night.
“Easily the most satisfying homer was hit by the ‘birthday boy,’ Willie Mays, who reached the age of 29 with an off-field shot in the sixth inning off shell-shocked Pirate pitching ace, Vernon Law. The line drive just eluded the acrobatic leap of Roberto Clemente, hit the top of the right field barrier and bounced high over the fence.
“‘That was the first (censored) hit I ever got on my birthday. But that second one I hit (which Clemente caught) was the hardest one I hit. I’m a better hitter when I go to right, but I haven’t hit a good one to left center, where my real power is, since I played in this park.’
“The lost balls hit last night were belted, in order, by Willie McCovey (a 410-foot liner to right center, Willie Kirkland (a 430-foot job that bounced into the right field parking lot), Mays’ birthday hit, and then the biggest shot of them all, and that one belonged to Roberto Clemente.
“Roberto’s blow traveled 410 feet, but it was hit into the treacherous cross-wind in left center. [California-based freelance sportswriter Arnold Hano estimated it at 450 feet as did Kal Wagenheim, Clemente (New York, Praeger Publishers, 1973), p. 73. See ARNOLD HANO above. Also, see tales of the tape.] Pittsburgh manager Danny Murtaugh said afterward that he’d ‘like to see Clemente’s hit on a clear day with no wind and see how far it really would go.’”
- - - - Bob Stevens, “Mays, Kirkland, McCovey Homer,” The San Francisco Chronicle (Saturday, May 7, 1960), p. 27

NUMBER TWO - May 23, 1964:

GAYLORD PERRY:
“They said don’t pitch him inside. I didn’t pitch him inside for three or four years. When I did pitch him inside, he hit a home run ... the wind blowing 30 miles per hour against him. He hit it 25 rows deep.”
- - - - Heuck and Fitzpatrick, “Pittsburgh's Claim to Fame: Hall-of-Famers Tell of Times In Our City,” The Pittsburgh Quarterly (Winter 2006)

NUMBER THREE - June 11, 1968:

BOB STEVENS (Writing on June 11, 1968):
“The little world of southpaw Ray Sadecki spun around rather violently last night as the Pittsburgh Pirates battered him from the mound in the sixth inning and carried on to a 7-4 victory over the Giants.
“Going into the fifth, Sadecki had shut out the Pirates for 22 consecutive innings. Then agony replaced the joy.
“A walk to Donn Clendenon and successive singles by Jerry May, Bill Mazeroski and pinch-hitter Carl Taylor rent asunder the handsome string of scoreless innings Ray had compiled against the season-long-slumped Pirates.
“But Sadecki still had the lead [at] 3-2, and although there was some alarm in the bullpen, there was not yet panic. Roberto Clemente, however, changed that in a hurry when he led off the sixth with a horrible-looking drive far into the left field stands – his eighth homer of the year and one of the longest ever hit in that spot.
“It started a four-run rally and it started the stunned Sadecki toward the showers.”
- - - - Stevens, “Bucs Pound Sadecki, Giants, 7-4,” The San Francisco Chronicle (Wednesday, June 12, 1968), p. 47

REGARDING THE 5/28-30/06 ROBERTO CLEMENTE THREAD:
PART ONE - Treder / PART TWO - sunnyday 2 / PART THREE - My Two Cents</I> </I>


PART ONE B:

RON SWOBODA:
“I saw him hit line drives off the brick wall at Forbes Field. One of them was the hardest ball I ever saw hit. I saw Willie Stargell and Willie McCovey and Dick Allen hit some long balls against us, up and out, but Clemente’s was different. I just never saw a ball hit so hard.”
- - - - Jim O’Brien, Remember Roberto: Roberto Clemente Recalled by Teammates, Family, Friends and Fans (Pittsburgh, James P. O’Brien – Publishing, 1994), p. 270

LARRY DIERKER:
“There were four home runs in the [’72 All-Star] game – two by Willie McCovey, the [game’s] MVP, and one each by Frank Howard and Johnny Bench. With all of the long balls, the one I remember most was hit by Roberto Clemente. The Great One hit it all the way into the upper deck, but it was foul. I had seen balls hit farther, but I had never seen a ball hit that far to the opposite field!”
- - - - Dierker, “Dierker on Baseball: Hanging with stars in Summer of '69,” The Houston Chronicle (Monday, July 12, 2004), p. 6

SANDY KOUFAX:
“The longest ball I ever saw hit to the opposite field was hit off me by Clemente at the Los Angeles Coliseum in 1961. It was a fastball on the outside corner, and he drove it out of the park – not just over the fence, he knocked it way out. * (1)
* Possibly an even scarier blast and one which Koufax could usually be counted upon – in his capacity as color commentator for the NBC Game of the Week in the late sixties – to conjure up for the viewing audience during a Clemente at-bat, was one which Clemente hit off Koufax at Forbes Field on May 31, 1964:
“Roberto Clemente hit an outside fastball that was still rising when it hit against the light tower in left center field, 450 feet away from home plate. And on a 1-2 pitch at that.” (2)

(1) Arnold Hano, Roberto Clemente: Batting King(New York, Putnam, 1973), p.151
(2) Sandy Koufax with Ed Linn, Koufax (New York, The Viking Press, 1966) p. 220

ERNIE BANKS:
“A lot of us are fortunate to have played in ballparks geared for our style of hitting. For instance, Stan Musial played in old Busch stadium with that short right field porch made to order for a lefty swinger. Duke Snider for years also had a friendly right field target in Ebbets Field in Brooklyn. That was a home run hitter’s paradise. There were no power alleys as such because left and right center were square with the foul lines.
“The short left field and right field lines, with the low fences, were ideal for Mickey Mantle in Yankee Stadium. Ted Kluszewski played in Cincinnati’s Crosley Field, where right field is a good target. Wally Moon, when the Dodgers played in the Los Angeles Coliseum a few years before their new park was built, learned to swing late and dunk fly balls over that high, friendly screen in left field. At the same time, right field in this football stadium just was too far away for Snider unless he pulled the ball down the line.
“Clemente geared his style of hitting for Forbes Field, whose left field walls are too far away for consistent production for right-handed hitters. Roberto concentrated on hitting line drives into the spacious right [and left] center field section. Had he been a Cub, I’m sure he would have adopted a power-style of swinging. Some of you fans may remember the ball he knocked out of Wrigley a few seasons ago, just to the left field side of the scoreboard. That’s the longest one I’ve seen hit there and we all agreed it must have traveled more than 500 feet on its trip into Waveland Avenue." [Also, see PHILIP LOWRY below.]
- - - - Ernie Banks, “The Wonderful World of Ernie Banks: Clemente Toughest in Banks’ Opinion,” The Chicago Tribune (July 6, 1969), p. B1

PHILIP LOWRY:
“On April 14, 1951, Sam Snead hit the only ball ever to reach the [Wrigley Field] scoreboard. It was a golf ball, teed off from the plate. Only two batters have come close to hitting the scoreboard. Roberto Clemente’s [1959] homer sailed just left of the scoreboard; Bill Nicholson’s [1948 shot] went just right.”[ Hall-of-Famer ROGERS HORNSBY called Clemente’s shot the longest he’d ever seen – see tales of the tape. For an account of a possibly even more formidable Clemente blast hit at Wrigley Field in a more informal setting, see BART RIPP in the first installment.]
- - - - Philip J. Lowry, Green Cathedrals: The Ultimate Celebration of All 271 Major League and Negro League Ballparks Past and Present (Reading, Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, 1992), pp. 31-32

CURT FLOOD:
- - Commenting on Clemente’s 500-foot blast to straightaway centerfield, which left Forbes Field and landed in a neighboring Little League diamond:
“I didn’t think the ball was going out. Nobody hits ’em out of the park at that spot. [Well, almost nobody. Clemente had hit one to almost the identical spot four days earlier – see LES BIEDERMAN below.] (1) I just didn’t think anyone could hit a ball that far.” (2)

(1) Neil Russo, “Homer Off Little Al Is Long Shot,” The St. Louis Post-Dispatch (Friday, June 10, 1966), p. 5B
(2) Glenn Gearhard, tales of the tape, Glenn’s Pirate Page
(http://www.mindspring.com / ~gearhard/taletape.html)

REGARDING THE 5/28-30/06 ROBERTO CLEMENTE THREAD:
PART ONE - Treder / PART TWO - sunnyday 2 / PART THREE - My Two Cents</I> </I>


PART ONE C:

Again, the simple point remains: there is no credible evidence that Clemente was a first-rate home run hitter, whose ability in that regard is somehow hidden from us or was intentionally suppressed. Clemente was what he was; no matter how hard one tries, there is no valid way to make him into something he wasn't. -- Treder

HOWIE HAAK:
“The only thing you ever hear about Clemente is that he doesn’t hit enough home runs. The criticism is ridiculous, because he could hit 40 a year if he wanted to. He has the greatest physical ability of anybody I’ve seen in a long time. He’s got as much power as anyone on this ballclub. Only [Bob] Robertson may have a little more.”
- - - - Markusen, <u> (Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh Associates DBA, 1994), p. 10

REGARDING THE 5/28-30/06 ROBERTO CLEMENTE THREAD:
PART ONE - Treder / PART TWO - sunnyday 2 / PART THREE - My Two Cents</I> </I>


PART ONE D:

BOB SKINNER:
"Clemente always chose average over power. Playing around in batting practice, he'd hit one ball after another over the fence. But in games, he just wanted to make hard contact."
- - - - Bruce Jenkins, "The Games -- Driven by Competitive Fires -- Bonds Seems Aloof, But it's All a Big Lie," <i>The San Francicsco Chronicle (Tuesday, April 25, 1995), p. C11</i>

LES BIEDERMAN (Pittsburgh Press' sports editor who covered the Pirates for the Press from 1938 and for The Sporting News from 1956, both terms ending with his retirement in 1969. Biederman's relationship to Clemente is an intriguing one; He is the Pittsurgh writer who actively campaigned among other writers on behalf of Dick Groat and against Clemente and Don Hoak for the 1960 NL MVP award. I had been aware of the anti-Clemente campaign for a number of years before I knew the identity of the writer. I'd always assumed it was Jack Hernon of the Post Gazette, who had a palpable antipathy toward Clemente <i>[somewhat akin to Pirate reliever Elroy Face's attitude toward his Puerto Rican teammate] and to whom Clemente was not speaking during the last year of his [Hernon's] life, while the writer was dying of cancer. But Biederman has been confirmed as the culprit by Maraniss, Markusen and O'Brien. Not having access either to any of Biederman's communications with other writers or to any first-hand accounts by any of the recipients of such communications, I have no idea to what extent his campaign was an attack on either Clemente or Hoak rather than merely a plug for Groat, although certainly the unsolicited electioneering seems inappropriate in any case. Unfortunately, I don't have access to The Press prior to 1967 and, while I do have access to The Sporting News dispatches on microfilm - thanks to the New York Public Library, ironically [and annoyingly], their copy of the reel containing the last half of 1960 is missing, so I'm unable to monitor any subtle - or not-so-subtle - change in the slant of his coverage. But prior to and subsequent to that point, his coverage of Clemente is pretty enthusiastic, although certainly increasingly throughout the sixties. If Clemente indeed wanted to sell baseball on the idea of Roberto Clemente as the best player in the league following his 1960 MVP disappointment, he definitely found a buyer in Biederman, who, well before his retirement in 1969, had proclaimed Clemente the best player he'd ever seen, a claim which - considering when he started covering the team, and even excluding the American League - takes in a nice chunk of real estate: I'm thinking Mays, Aaron, Musial, Frank Robinson, Mel Ott, Johnny Mize, Ernie Banks.):</i>

- - “In a stretch of ten [recent] games, Clemente collected 23 hits, including four homers, and two of them were the darnedest shots anybody ever saw at Forbes Field. Clemente hit one ball between the Barney Dreyfuss monument and the right-center light tower – a rarity for a right-handed slugger. This happened against the Astros with Dick Farrell pitching. (1) [It] traveled out of the park between the 435-foot sign on the right-center fence and the Barney Dreyfuss memorial to the left. It actually is center field, although the flagpole (457 feet) is regarded as dead center. The ball landed approximately 60 feet beyond the wall on a diamond where some youngsters were playing. (2) Five days later [four days actually - June 5th and 9th], he did it again. This time the ball disappeared over the monument with Al Jackson of the Cardinals on the mound, and the fans gasped. [Not only the fans – see CURT FLOOD above.] Two shots in less than one week. (3) [Each one] was a 500-foot sock, but Clemente didn’t regard [either] as his No. 1 home run.
“‘I hit one at Wrigley Field one day that left the park near the left side of the scoreboard,’ Clemente explained. ‘The next day, I measured it and I figured maybe 600 feet.’
“Clemente also regards a home run that hit the facade of the right field roof in Pittsburgh as one he’ll remember, along with one to right field in the Coliseum at Los Angeles off Sandy Koufax [see SANDY KOUFAX above] and one off Sam Jones in San Francisco. (4)

- - Clemente's Greatest Game?
“It was an unbelievable finish to an unbelievable game. It was almost like Roberto Clemente playing the Reds all by himself and coming so close to wrecking them singlehandedly. Clemente had the biggest game of his career with three home runs, a double and drove in all seven runs. But the Reds edged the Pirates, 8-7, in 10 innings on Tony Perez’ fourth straight hit.
“‘Yes, my biggest game,’ Clemente conceded in a hushed Buc clubhouse, ‘but not my best game. My best game is when I drive in the winning run. I don’t count this one, we lost.’
“Clemente was a one-man gang and kept the slim turnout of 5222 fans and the entire Cincinnati team open-mouthed in sheer admiration of his prowess with the bat. [His glove wasn’t exactly MIA either. In the bottom of the ninth, after the Bucs’ bullpen had coughed up the lead he’d handed them, Clemente climbed the fence and batted a potential walk-off home run back onto the playing field to send the game into extra innings - - see Roberto Clemente, as told to George Vass, "The Game I'll Never Forget," Baseball Digest (September 1971), p. 38.] He hit a first-inning, two-run homer to right field and came back with another two-run homer to right-center, both off Milt Pappas and Bob Veale had a two-run lead after two innings.
“When the Reds got close with three runs in the sixth inning and kayoed Veale, Clemente again took charge. He delivered a two-out, two-run double to left-center off Darrell Osteen and now the Pirate lead grew to 6-3. Pete Mikkelson got into trouble in the Reds’ seventh and gave up two more runs and, once again, Clemente came to the rescue. This time he hammered a two-out home run far over the left field fence off Gerry Arrigo and the Pirates were ahead, 7-5.
“But Lee May dropped a two-run homer into the right-center seats off Juan Pizarro to tie it up in the ninth after Pizarro [had] pitched out of a jam in the Reds’ eighth. [Then followed Clemente’s above-mentioned game-saving defensive play.]
“Then with two gone and Pete Rose on first base in the 10th, Perez lined a two-bagger off the center field wall and Rose scored easily.
“Clemente talked himself into the first two home runs off Milt Pappas. I never hit Pappas good last year and I kept convincing myself all day I would hit him,’ Clemente explained. ‘If I make up my mind to do something, I do it.’
“Clemente finished up against the Braves Sunday at Forbes Field with a triple, double and a single. Counting last night, in his last eight times at bat, he has now collared three homers, one triple, two doubles, one single and eight RBIs. In his last 12 games, he has 23 hits and 16 RBIs. His work last evening drove his average to .390. (29) [About two and a half weeks after this monumental if frustrating effort, Clemente supplied another memorable multi-HR effort, this time powering Pittsburgh to a victory over Don Drysdale and the Dodgers – see below.] (5)

- - Writing later that week:
“The night Clemente put on his show, only 5,222 fans showed up in Cincinnati. The next night, the at-tendance jumped to 13,389 and Clemente put on a display during batting practice. He lofted five of six balls out of the park in all directions and when he left the batting cage, the fans applauded.
“‘It’s the first time I’ve seen that since Ted Williams’ days with the Red Sox,’ coach Johnny Pesky remarked. Clemente left Cincinnati, trailed by admiring remarks from the Reds.
“Clemente hit a home run and a double against the Braves in Atlanta on May 20 and when the game ended, he owned a .402 average with seven homers and 27 RBIs.
“In his first 30 games, Clemente missed hitting in just four and the Pirates lost three of those four. He’s such a feared batter now that, of his 15 walks, ten were intentional.” (6)

- - Writing the following week:
- - “Don Drysdale is old enough – 31 – and has been pitching long enough – 12 years with the Dodgers – to know better than to throw at Roberto Clemente and intimidate him. Drysdale decked Clemente in a crucial situation and lived to regret it as he and the Dodgers absorbed a 4-1 defeat by the Pirates.
“The score was tied and there were Pirates on first and second with two outs in the seventh inning when Clemente came to bat. Clemente [had] fanned swinging in the first inning, singled to right in the third and [driven] a home run (No. 11) into the center-field seats in the fifth inning to account for the 1-1 tie.
“Now he came to the plate and the crowd of 39, 741 started roaring. The first pitch was high and inside and so close Clemente hit the dirt. Whether this was what Drysdale wanted to do is beside the point: it was a social error. Clemente got up quickly and you could almost read what was on his mind.
“The next two pitches were balls and then came a hurried conference with third base coach Alex Grammas. It was obvious Clemente would swing at the next serve and he did but fouled it off. The very next pitch exploded – into the left-center seats as Willie Davis looked longingly at Clemente’s 12th homer of the year and his 43rd RBI.
“‘I should have let well enough alone,’ commiserated Drysdale. ‘I shouldn't have made him that eager to swing.’
“‘We made a mistake,’ catcher Jeff Torborg admitted.
“Clemente smiled. He had just won another battle, another war. ‘I was hoping he wouldn’t walk me,’ Clemente added. ‘I wanted one good swing and I got it. It was a thrill but the biggest thrill came when I went back to the field and the [Dodger] fans applauded me. This doesn’t happen very often.’” (7)

(1) Biederman, “Veale Volunteers – Then Learns Relief Just Isn’t His Dish,” The Sporting News (June 28, 1966), p. 8
(2) Biederman, “Clemente Uses Bat to Send ‘All Well’ Message to Family,” The Sporting News (June 18, 1966), p. 15
(3) Biederman, “Veale Volunteers”
(4) Biederman, "Clemente Uses Bat...”
(5) Biederman, “Roberto Collects 3 HRs, 7 RBIs As Bucs Lose, 8-7,” The Pittsburgh Press (Tuesday, May 16, 1967), p.
(6) Biederman, “Hats Off! N.L. Player of the Week – Roberto Clemente,” The Sporting News (June 3, 1967), p. 23
(7) Biederman, “Clemente Teaches Drysdale Lesson: Roberto Gets Up and Hits 2nd HR to Defeat Dodgers,” The Pittsburgh Press (Monday, June 5, 1967), p. 40

GENE COLLIER (Sports columnist with the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette):
“I first visited [Veterans Stadium on] June 27, 1971 for a doubleheader between the exceedingly fear-some Pirates and the exceedingly awful Phillies. Willie Stargell, who two nights before had homered into section 601, located approximately in Delaware, was in the middle of a 48-homer summer. In those earliest years, there was an enormous mock Liberty Bell mounted on the facing of the upper deck in dead center, maybe 40 feet above and behind the fence, which was and is 408 feet from the plate. Roberto Clemente lined a homer off that ball that afternoon, which was, pretty clearly, unforgettable.”
- - - - Gene Collier, “, p. 10

REGARDING THE 5/28-30/06 ROBERTO CLEMENTE THREAD:
PART ONE - Treder / PART TWO - sunnyday 2 / PART THREE - My Two Cents</I> </I>


PART ONE E:

Forgive the redundancy, but I'd like to ooffer these next two with the untruncated attributions.

JIMMY WYNN (Speedy, 5’ 9’’ outfielder with a lot of power spent most of his career with the Houston Astros – nicknamed “The Toy Cannon”):
“My first major league game was at Forbes Field in Pittsburgh, and Roberto Clemente almost killed me! Not many people know this, but I came up as a shortstop. Clemente hit a screaming line drive, and I got my glove up just as the ball hit the left field wall.
I was one heck of a high school shortstop, but the majors were another story. After that, I told the coaches and manager to get me out of the infield.”
- - - - Al Doyle, “, p. 10

REGARDING THE 5/28-30/06 ROBERTO CLEMENTE THREAD:
PART ONE - Treder / PART TWO - sunnyday 2 / PART THREE - My Two Cents</I> </I>

Well, obviously what I'd like and what I can accomplish are two very different entities. And hey guys - while you've got the scissors out, maybe you could delete my spelling errors, huh? Ooffer, indeed. Ouch! Anyway, if at first you don't succeed....

JIMMY WYNN (Speedy, 5’ 9’’ outfielder with a lot of power spent most of his career with the Houston Astros – nicknamed “The Toy Cannon”):
“My first major league game was at Forbes Field in Pittsburgh, and Roberto Clemente almost killed me! Not many people know this, but I came up as a shortstop. Clemente hit a screaming line drive, and I got my glove up just as the ball hit the left field wall.
I was one heck of a high school shortstop, but the majors were another story. After that, I told the coaches and manager to get me out of the infield.”
- - - - Al Doyle, “, p. 10

REGARDING THE 5/28-30/06 ROBERTO CLEMENTE THREAD:
PART ONE - Treder / PART TWO - sunnyday 2 / PART THREE - My Two Cents</I> </I>

Okay, you've convinced me - no more JIMMY WYNN.

PART ONE E PLUS:

GENE COLLIER (Sports columnist with the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette):
“I first visited [Veterans Stadium on] June 27, 1971 for a doubleheader between the exceedingly fear-some Pirates and the exceedingly awful Phillies. Willie Stargell, who two nights before had homered into section 601, located approximately in Delaware, was in the middle of a 48-homer summer. In those earliest years, there was an enormous mock Liberty Bell mounted on the facing of the upper deck in dead center, maybe 40 feet above and behind the fence, which was and is 408 feet from the plate. Roberto Clemente lined a homer off that ball that afternoon, which was, pretty clearly, unforgettable.”
- - - - Gene Collier, “, p. 10

REGARDING THE 5/28-30/06 ROBERTO CLEMENTE THREAD:
PART ONE - Treder / PART TWO - sunnyday 2 / PART THREE - My Two Cents</I> </I>

Okay - Let's try this...

PART ONE F:

PHIL MUSICK (Pittsburgh sportswriter, radio personality and author):
“Midsummer, 1970. Wrigley [Field]. Batting practice before a Cubs’ game. Noon or so. A day so hot that in the distance beyond the Chicago tenements, the heat seems to gather in columns, like germs in a test tube.
“One by one, young Bob Robertson drives batting practice fastballs over the left field fence. Four… five… six… Even the older players stop what they’re doing to watch. Seven...eight.
“‘How you do it, old man,’ the brash Robertson snickers at a quiet Pirate next to the cage. Soft laughter rises from a nearby gaggle of players, writers and front-office types. Roberto Clemente replies with a stony look.
“Robertson hits a ninth consecutive BP home run, then skies the next pitch into a low-hanging cloud over the infield and gives way to the next hitter, his grin a challenge of sorts. Clemente replaces Robertson in the cage.
“Old Frank Oceak, the third-base coach, short-arms a 60 m.p.h. pitch tight on the hands. Clemente turns on it like a snake, catching it fatly and just so on the barrel of the thick-handled bat. It leaves Wrigley on a rising trajectory, as though it had come from the end of a .12 gauge. The ball clears the fence, the high brick wall behind it, and the width of Waveland Avenue, before striking sharply next to a tenement building window.
“Clemente flips the bat toward the mound, heel over barrel, purposely ignoring Robertson, and strides briskly off to the dugout. Excited babble trails in his wake. The young Robertson just shakes his head. In the tunnel leading from the dugout to the clubhouse, Clemente permits himself a small smile.”
- - - - Musick, Reflections on Roberto, p. 10

REGARDING THE 5/28-30/06 ROBERTO CLEMENTE THREAD:
PART ONE - Treder / PART TWO - sunnyday 2 / PART THREE - My Two Cents</I> </I>


PART TWO A:

As for Kaline, 95-99 percent of fans today would take it as an article of faith that of course Clemente was better than Kaline, and probably by a wide margin.
This amounts to underrating Kaline, who was in fact better than Clemente. -- sunnyday2

CLETE BOYER:
"If [my brother and I] changed places and Ken played in New York, he’d be in the Hall of Fame today. It’s like Roberto Clemente. He was by far the greatest defensive right fielder who ever lived, but because he played in Pittsburgh, he didn’t get the credit he deserved. I played with Roger Maris and against Al Kaline, and they were both great right fielders. But they weren’t in Clemente’s class.”
- - - - Tim McCarver with Phil Pepe, Few And Chosen: Defining Cardinal Greatness Across The Eras (Chicago, Triumph Books, 2003), p. 63

HAL SMITH:
"I had been with other teams before I came to the Pirates. I had been with clubs in Kansas City and before that in Baltimore. But I had never been with a ballplayer like Clemente.
“I knew he was going to be great. I saw him make plays in ’60 and I saw someone like Al Kaline try to make plays like that, and he couldn’t. Clemente could throw the ball. There were few who could throw the ball like him. Rocky Colavito could and Kaline could, and Carl Furillo and Willie Mays could, but not many of them.
“He was such a great athlete. He could stop and go. He could’ve played football. He was just a natural, instinctive ballplayer.
“If someone said, ‘Hey, Roberto, let’s go pitch horseshoes,’ he’d probably win all the time. He had great speed – he was just such a natural athlete. I was in awe of his ability."
- - - - Jim O’Brien, Maz and The 60 Bucs (Pittsburgh, James P. O’Brien – Publishing, 1993) , p. 279

AL KALINE:
"I guess the saddest things I’ve ever seen in baseball are the guys that are cut down in mid-career by freak accidents and injuries. You may not know them personally, but as an athlete you can identify with them. Like a Roberto Clemente, who, at the time of his death, was playing the best game of baseball I’d ever seen." [Clemente was, to be accurate, hardly in mid-career at the time of his death – was, in fact, a thirty-eight-year-old eighteen-year veteran. It’s a tribute to the level of Clemente’s performance at the age of thirty-eight that Kaline’s mistake is understandable.] (1)
"I’m sorry I didn’t get to know him better. I’m sure he was the best all-around right fielder to ever play the game. For the last three years, I thought he was the best player anywhere." (2)
"For me, this is the finest award I have ever received, the finest award any player could receive. I am very grateful for it.
“First, because it comes from baseball, which has been very good to me.
“Second, because it is named for Roberto Clemente, the man I consider the greatest right fielder I ever saw play. I accept it with sincere appreciation of the man for whom it is named." (3)

(1) Anthony J. Connor, Baseball for the Love of It: Hall of Famers Tell It Like It Was (New York, Macmillan, 1982), p. 235
(2) Watson Spoelstra, “Roberto: Blended Dignity With Skill,” The Detroit News (Tuesday, January 2, 1973), p. 1-D
(3) Jack Lang, “Proud Mrs. Clemente Presents Award,�