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— BTF's Preseason Previews

Monday, March 08, 2004

New York Mets

The 2003 New York Mets season can be summed up with this: Roger Cedeno was the Mets leading hitter among players that qualified for the batting title. Oh, that’s just not good.

What went wrong:

Mike Piazza got hurt for four months. Cliff Floyd played hurt and hung them up early. Tom "Icarus" Glavine flew too close to the sun and came crashing down to the earth. Mo Vaughn didn’t lose a pound and missed almost the entire season. Art Howe turned out to be dim-witted, rather than pensive. Joe McEwing got 300 plate appearances.

What went right:

Jose Reyes looked great. Jae Weong Seo looked great. Jason Phillips looked great.

Oh, and Mo Vaughn missed almost the entire season.

No Met fan wants to spend much time ruminating about the 2003 season, so I will stop there.

Fortunately, the Wilpon ownership jettisoned General Manager Steve Phillips. The new GM is Jim Duquette. Duquette hired a stat guy, following the footsteps of Billy Beane, Theo Epstein and J. P. Ricciardi. Duquette proceeded to make some good moves, followed by some questionable ones. As it stands now, I’m reserving judgement on his ability as a GM because even Phillips made some good moves.

Here’s what has taken place so far:

Players signed:

Players Re-signed

Players Lost:

SS Kazuo Matsui (Seibu Lions)

OF Timo Perez

INF Marco Scutaro

CF Mike Cameron (Mariners)

LHP John Franco

OF Matt Watson

RHP Braden Looper (Marlins)

RHP Scott Strickland

OF Tsuyoshi Shinjo

OF Karim Garcia (Yankees

INF Joe McEwing

1B Tony Clark

INF Todd Zeile (Expos)

 

 

Duquette did a good job with the Matsui and Cameron contracts – neither is bloated and likely to become an albatross. Looper and Garcia are fine signings – they are solid contributors at a reasonable price. The Todd Zeile signing was something else. By signing Zeile, the Mets were forced to trade LHP Jamie Cerda (it was a 40-man roster issue), receiving Shawn Sedlacek from the Royals. It was a move roundly cursed in the Met fan circles as throwing away a useful pitcher for a non-useful one, all for the sake of signing a bad player. My personal take was "So?" None of the players is likely to have an effect. If you subscribe to Baseball Prospectus’ favorite saying, "There is no such thing as a pitching prospect (TINSTAAPP)", and then it is even less troublesome. To me, the number of runs in a season Cerda can effect just aren’t enough to get all hot and bothered about. Of course, this type of dumb move could be a warning sign of the type of chicanery that Duquette will pull.

Re-signing Timo, Franco and Strickland are also fine marginal moves. Re-signing McEwing is stupid beyond belief. McEwing is a tremendous waste of a player, particularly in the light of letting Marco Scutaro go. Scutaro is a much younger, much cheaper and even better version of Super Joe. This is another one of those moves that signals Duquette is either not completely in charge or he has some hang-up for washed-up veteran infielders.

Duquette did make good decisions with his minor league contracts: OF Shane Spencer, RHP Scott Erickson, RHP Ricky Bottalico, RHP James Baldwin, and LHP Randy Keisler. Nothing fantastic, but certainly useful pieces if they have anything in the tank.

With a new GM, and a new eye toward evaluating players, the Mets’ future isn’t as gray as it once was.

There is good news and bad news for the New York Mets: the roster and positions are well set. There won’t be any surprises on the field that doesn’t involve aliens – and I’m not predicting aliens.

Your 2004 New York Mets

Catcher – Mike Piazza

Piazza pulled a groin muscle (his own) in the May 16 game against San Francisco. He was hitting .333 .422 .613 at the time, which suggests that his injury wasn’t a result of catching wear-and-tear. I suspect he’ll be the best hitting catcher in the National League by a good margin, particularly with Pudge Rodriguez and Javy Lopez moving to the American League. The biggest question is will Piazza be catching. The Mets' other catchers, Vance Wilson, who is one of my wife’s favorite players because she went to Wilson Vance Middle School, and Jason Phillips can both hit a little bit and are better defensively than Piazza.

Change from 2003: +15 runs

First Base – Jason Phillips

Phillips was very good at first base in his rookie season and was more potent offensively than two-thirds of the other NL first basemen, trailing just a few of the NL’s real stars: Helton, Bagwell, Thome, Sexson and Derrek Lee. He hit better than his MLEs would indicate, so I expect some regression to his previously expected performance, but he should still be above average. With Mike Piazza learning the position in Spring Training, the position has solid hitters at both first and catcher. Todd Zeile was signed to provide some backup at first and third, while being able to coach Piazza through the transition, as Zeile made the move from catcher himself.

Change from 2003: -8 runs

Second Base – Jose Reyes

Jose Reyes is a good shortstop and very young and fast. He came up in the middle of 2003 and showed all the flash a Met fan could want. He hit nearly 60 points higher than his MLEs project, so he may experience some significant regression at the plate. The scouting reports will be more severe, and since he got to play while the Mets were a very weak team, he’ll be viewed as a more significant threat at the plate. Reyes also has to make the transition to second base defensively. The biggest issue will be turning the double play. He has about six weeks of working with Kazuo Matsui, which brings a different style of baseball (Japanese) and big language barriers. Yo la tengo, anyone?

Either way, a full season of Reyes should be a marked improvement over Robbie Alomar and Joe McEwing, mostly on the defensive side.

Change from 2003: +8 runs

Third Base – Ty Wigginton

Ty Wigginton had an outstanding rookie season. Okay, it was a good rookie season. He started out strong, and playing every day simply wore Wigginton out and his bat became sluggish and his fielding, which wasn’t strong, worsened to Venus de Milo status – not just a statue, but a statue without arms. It was pretty clear Wigginton wasn’t ready for the everyday grind. If Wigginton has prepared better for this season, he may improve - I would put the odds at about 50-50. Wigginton is a placeholder for prospect David Wright. This position is not one of strengths for the 2004 Mets.

Change from 2003: None.

Shortstop – Kazuo Matsui

Kazuo "The Other" Matsui from Japan is signed to a three-year contract. This seems to be an ideal contract – not too long and not too short for a player at the tip of his prime. The big question is – how will his success in Japan translate to MLB? Clay Davenport did some work that put the bar around AAAA, but as more Japanese players came to the US, more data became available for analysis. I haven’t seen Clay’s update, but I’m sure the result is a much lower projection for power statistics.

Kazuo is a very fast, very good glove, power-hitting shortstop. With his power likely to be sapped by the change, Kaz should be closer to Ichiro than ARod. He’ll have a lower batting average than Ichiro, but should still be a solid improvement over the Mets’ shortstops not named Reyes in 2003, which is about 400 plate appearances.

Change from 2003: +10 runs

Left field - Cliff Floyd

Floyd played most of 2003 slightly injured, which did not surprise very many people. After the Mets were unofficially wiped out, Floyd ended his season. He posted a 132 OPS+ and was slow in the outfield. The Mets got what they were expecting in the signing, and had the Mets been in anything resembling contention, Floyd would have toughed out the rest of the season (so the story goes). As it was, he did his part and I expect his 2004 season to be as good if not better due to better health and better defensive support in the outfield. Floyd does get injured quite a bit, and he isn’t likely to play 150 games.

Change from 2003: +5 runs

Center field - Mike Cameron

Mike Cameron is an outstanding defensive centerfielder. His offense has had a nice Gaussian peak over the last five seasons. If that continues, Mets fans will be sorely disappointed with his offense.

Even with that, the Mets were very poor in centerfield in 2003, so Cameron will be a significant improvement. The combination of Perez/Gonzalez/Duncan just didn’t hit much. The change of leagues will almost certainly have Cameron struggling to start with and how quickly he adjusts will be a big factor in his season. Cameron’s biggest contribution will be with the glove. That will show up more in the team ERA than anywhere else.

Change from 2003: +10 runs

Right field - Karim Garcia/Roger Cedeno/Timo Perez/Shane Spencer

Right field for the Mets is not going to be pretty, which is sad because it has been the Mets’ weakest position for two straight seasons (at least). This is where Duquette and his staff have failed to recognize the position that should be easiest to upgrade with a hitter. Roger Cedeno is terrible and Duquette would be wise to trade him for a sack of BP balls or simply cut him.

Karim Garcia can hit a little and Timo Perez isn’t as bad as generally thought. Nonetheless, none of these guys is a major league starter, or at least shouldn’t be. Any of these guys is a solid bench player, but as a starter, the Mets will be below average by a significant amount. As this was easily the Mets weakest position, it won’t take much to improve. On the other hand, there are no guarantees this group can improve on the poor performances of the last few seasons.

Change from 2003: None.

Bench -

The 2003 bench was awful. The 2004 bench will be better, although I don’t consider this significant – McEwing is still there, three extra right fielders, Wilson and Zeile.

Starting Rotation -

Tom Glavine was terrible in 2003. If he’s actually done, then the Mets are completely hosed - I put that at even money as there is no real reason for him bounce back. He’s 38; it’s a much better bet that he is done, or at least done being dominant. Glavine may adjust to the strike zone and if he avoids the Braves, his value to the Mets will be higher. However, it has already been stated that he’ll face the Braves on April 6. Maybe last season was a fluke against the Braves - we’ll see. Glavine is a professional and may figure out an adjustment – but bouncing back to an ERA+ 125 or higher may be beyond him.

Al Leiter has a nice standard decline going over the last four seasons: ERA+ 136, 124, 112, 106. That’s a bad sign for the Mets. However, Leiter’s HRs were down and his walks were up. He tried too much to be like Glavine last season, attempting to pitch away for the first half of the season.

Leiter’s splits:

Pre-All Star ERA 5.57

Post-All Star ERA 2.14

All of Leiter’s peripherals were down after the ASB. As a watcher and scorer of Met games, it was readily apparent that Leiter stopped trying to be Tom Glavine, and went back to pitching hard down and in. Does that mean Leiter will be better in 2004? Given his age, I’m not sure he’ll be much better, but I suspect he will, because his peripherals were so much better in the second half of 2003.

Steve Trachsel has been steady since his brief stint in the minors a few years ago. He was solid in 2003, although on a slight decline, and he should continue that pace, if not improve based solely on Mets better defense. His ERA will come in somewhere around 0.5 to 0.75 runs below league average (ERA+ 110-120).

Jae Weong Seo was as good as could be expected. He struggled after splitting a fingernail, but came back too early from that injury. Once he had fully healed, he was dominant again. He should see his ERA drop if he is healthy all season. It is also possible the time missed from the fingernail injury prevented him from suffering from fatigue late in the season. Should that occur, Seo might be about the same, plus defensive improvement.

Aaron Heilman should be the number five starter. Jeremy Griffiths has been terrible, and now that Spring Training has started, there are rumblings that Tyler Yates may be in the 5-hole. Scott Erickson is also hanging around.

Heilman deserves to split time in the fifth slot. With the Mets unlikely to threaten the playoffs, a regular dosing of facing major league hitters will help him grow and refine his game. I doubt his psyche is fragile. The Mets should watch his innings and be ready with a quick hook to let his arm strength stabilize, but other than that, trial-by-fire is a dang good way to learn.

The rotation should be slightly better, mostly due to the improved defensive play behind them.

Change from 2003: +20 runs

Bullpen -

The bullpen was not too bad in 2003, except for Armando Benitez. The Marlins now have Armando and the Mets have Marlin closer Braden Looper. Benitez was terrible in his half season with the Mets and Looper has to be better than that. The rest of the faces barely wavered. Mike Stanton should be better and healthier. Scott Strickland missed 2003 mostly. John Franco and David Weathers are all available. Grant Roberts should be back, and he may pitch well enough to get spot starts where an old guy is injured or a younger guy struggles.

Change from 2003: None.

Manager -

Art Howe displayed a remarkable lack of knowledge of pitching matchups. It was amazing to watch him replace a left-handed starter with a left-handed reliever. He uses bad players apparently out of spite. He has poor judgement with regard to what a pitcher has and is slow with the hook. It is possible he is just unfamiliar with the players on his team, but he does not use them properly. Jim Leyland, in my opinion, was a good manager because he used players to their strengths (riding young pitchers notwithstanding). Howe doesn’t do that. If the Mets flounder as much as 2003, with healthy players, I expect Howe to be fired.

Coaches -

Much has been made about the addition of Rick Peterson. He may fix the Mets pitchers and keep them healthy. I don’t know what impact he’ll have on the older guys (Glavine and Leiter and Trachsel), but he should have a very positive effect on Heilman, Seo, Royce Ring, Jeremy Griffiths and Roberts. His work is more likely to be evident in 2005.

In Summation -

All things considered, the Mets should be a better team in 2004 than in 2003. It is pretty clear they will need several pitchers to bounce back to previously attained high levels and a few hitters as well. If Kaz Matsui does hit like he did in Japan, and Jose Reyes doesn’t regress, and Mike Cameron bounces back offensively, then the Mets might not be eliminated by September 1st. If things go as expected, reaching .500 will be a stretch.

2004 ZiPS Projections
Name               P    AVG   OBP   SPC    G   AB    R    H  2B  3B  HR  RBI   BB    K  SB  CS 
Floyd*             lf  .301  .394  .541  133  475   81  143  40   1  24   89   66   88   8   3 
Piazza             c   .272  .358  .539  114  397   54  108  29   1  25   79   51   68   0   2 
Phillips           1b  .298  .374  .462  127  439   50  131  27   0  15   67   45   47   0   1 
Diaz               2b  .308  .367  .441  132  487   76  150  25   2  12   65   41   84  15  10 
Cameron            cf  .261  .359  .449  152  548   81  143  35   4  20   79   77  151  20   9 
Matsui#            ss  .284  .349  .445  133  510   84  145  30   5  14   67   46  126  18   5 
Garcia*            rf  .281  .333  .493  128  477   66  134  22   2  25   83   32   98   1   6 
Vaughn*            1b  .241  .340  .450  132  473   57  114  27   0  24   78   61  150   1   1 
Wigginton          3b  .274  .341  .417  147  537   68  147  33   4  12   65   50  104   9   3 
Gonzalez           lf  .275  .359  .397  148  476   74  131  27   2   9   56   58   64   7   6 
Reyes#             ss  .291  .341  .393  123  488   89  142  15  10   5   43   34   67  37  12 
Perez*             cf  .292  .333  .414  136  415   47  121  24   3   7   48   24   35   8   8 
Redman             cf  .252  .329  .394  137  477   67  120  28   2  12   59   50  108  20   9 
Spencer            lf  .249  .328  .384  106  349   35   87  18   1   9   43   38   78   2   1 
Cedeno#            rf  .273  .330  .373  146  509   70  139  22   4   7   51   41   86  24  10 
Valent*            rf  .237  .319  .383  148  520   64  123  36   2  12   61   58  109   0   1 
Garcia             2b  .261  .320  .377  147  525   67  137  31   3   8   56   39   87   8   4 
Duncan*            cf  .253  .342  .339  123  384   54   97  10   4   5   34   48  101  17  10 
Zeile              3b  .229  .307  .359  126  410   45   94  21   1  10   47   43   84   1   0 
Wilson             c   .244  .294  .370   93  254   25   62  11   0   7   31   13   50   0   2 
Brazell*           1b  .246  .277  .385  130  525   51  129  23   1  16   67   18  105   2   2 
McEwing            2b  .242  .310  .330  116  264   30   64  12   1   3   25   21   55   3   3 
Snead#             cf  .216  .284  .275  132  472   60  102  14   4   2   31   41   94  39  17 

Name                  ERA   W   L   G  GS     INN    H   ER  HR   BB    K 
Bevis                3.39   4   4  48   0    69.0   53   26   4   30   79 
Bell                 3.72   3   3  43   0    58.0   54   24   7   14   55 
Roberts              3.74   3   3  38   3    65.0   61   27   4   21   50 
Ring*                3.93   3   4  54   0    55.0   44   24   2   30   57 
Stanton*             4.04   5   5  69   0    69.0   63   31   4   29   56 
Feliciano*           4.07   3   4  51   0    73.0   71   33   7   21   55 
Strickland           4.09   5   5  64   0    66.0   55   30   6   32   70 
Seo                  4.10   9  10  31  29   169.0  175   77  17   37  104 
Looper               4.22   4   4  75   0    79.0   79   37   6   29   53 
Weathers             4.23   4   4  76   0    83.0   77   39   6   37   69 
Griffiths            4.26   7   8  28  25   150.0  152   71  14   48   99 
Anderson             4.29   3   3  31   2    42.0   39   20   4   16   35 
Yates                4.34   3   5  31   6    56.0   53   27   5   24   45 
Heilman              4.38   7   9  29  27   154.0  150   75  15   61  117 
Leiter*              4.50  10  14  31  31   190.0  186   95  19   77  143 
Roach                4.53   6   9  29  24   135.0  143   68  14   40   79 
Trachsel             4.74   9  15  31  31   184.0  194   97  23   62  117 
Wheeler              4.85   4   8  39  15   117.0  125   63  18   35   81 
Baldwin              4.94   7   9  28  22   142.0  154   78  20   47   82 
Strange              5.01   5  10  33  20   142.0  151   79  16   59   87 
Glavine*             5.12   8  17  34  34   202.0  221  115  21   84   98 
Sedlacek             5.15   8  10  30  24   152.0  169   87  25   46   89 
Franco*              5.25   2   5  53   0    48.0   49   28   7   22   36 
Bottalico            5.40   0   1  53   0    50.0   52   30   9   21   40 
Erickson             5.54   6  10  25  24   143.0  163   88  18   62   64 
Hill                 5.87   2   7  54   0    69.0   60   45   7   62   70 
ZiPS Projections are not playing time predictors; they project a player's performance given playing time in the majors in their accustomed role. As with all projections, specific knowledge of non-statistical attributes of the player should temper what the computer says.
Chris Dial Posted: March 08, 2004 at 12:00 AM | 25 comment(s)
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Page 1 of 1 pages
   1. Sam M. Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614890)
As this [right field] was easily the Mets weakest position, it won’t take much to improve.

Really? It may have been the weakest by the end of the year, but looked at over the full season you have to take into account Burnitz's contribution before being traded -- which was substantial. For the season as a whole, I'd say center field and second base were worse. No doubt, though, Duquette did the worst fix-it job with the RF situation. The only defense is that (a) they decided to keep it open long enough for the Vlad situation to resolve itself, and by the time they acted most of the other options were gone, and (b) a one-year "solution" leaves them maximum flexibility to make a big move for either Beltran or Ordonez in the off-season.

Overall, I think you're on the money with your evaluation. I expect the pitching to be better on the following theory: Glavine and the five-hole starter should be better -- based on the Lennon/McCartney Princple* -- and the other three should (collectively) be about the same. They are also (by far) the best positioned team in the division to make a big mid-season move if all the pieces fall into place and they are somehow still in the race come late July.


* -- "I've got to admit it's getting better (better)
A little better all the time (it can't get no worse)."



   2. Mike Emeigh Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614891)
Excellent overview.

While I'd agree that Cameron in CF is a huge defensive upgrade, I think that's the only place where the D is likely to be significantly better. Reyes was below average defensively at SS last year (which is not unusual for a first-year SS, regardless of skill set), and the transition from SS to 2B isn't as seamless as one might think it is; I think there's a good chance he'll struggle with the glove. Matsui is an unknown quantity; he comes with a good rep, but he's going to have some adjustments to make as well. Floyd is not a good defensive outfielder, and the only one of the guys who might end up in the RF hole who is significantly better defensively than Cedeno (as shicking as this might seem) is Perez. Having Cameron in CF between Floyd and anyone-other-than-Timo reminds me of the story that Ralph Kiner used to tell about Frankie Baumholtz wearing out because he had to play between the immobile Kiner in left and the equally immobile Hank Sauer in right.

-- MWE
   3. Mike Emeigh Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614895)
PECOTA projections:

Not on this site, please! It's ZiPS.

Glavine- damn, thats terrible

Well, yes - it's a projection, and like most projections it takes into account that (a) Glavine's most recent season was pretty bad and (b) Glavine is 38 and a bounceback isn't likely.

Diaz- who is this?

Victor Diaz, 2B prospect acquired from the Dodgers last year. He won't play in the majors this year, except possibly as a September callup, and might need a change of scenery now to ever have a shot.

-- MWE
   4. Rickroll the Mets (OFF) Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614896)
Excellent review.

I don't know how much of an defensive unknown quantity Matsui is. He won a Gold Glove in Japan last year, and Shinjo! and Ichiro! both proved that defense translates very well (both were GGers in Japan too).

I also expect Victor Diaz to be a solid contributor this season. Whether subbing for Floyd in LF, Phillips at 1b, or Wigginton at 3b, his bat will give him playing time.
   5. scott Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614897)
i forgot which metric it was, but Cameron was rated as saving 31 runs in center last year. i highly doubt that the mets were above average in that catagory. likewise, his offense is nothing stellar (good lord, look at his K rate!), but he's been very consistant in putting up an above average OBP, much better than the mets 2003 CF. i don't think i see that as simply a 10 run improvement.

it's amazing what happens when you upgrade from below replacement level in offense and defense to fantastic in defense and above average in offense.

likewise, i expect k-mat to get on base well and play very good defense, and i expect with a full season reyes will improve a good deal at defense. i also wouldn't be shocked if reyes continues to put up good numbers on offense, seeing as he'll be far better protected in the lineup this year.
   6. 3AM Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614898)
I forgot which metric it was, but Cameron was rated as saving 31 runs in center last year. i highly doubt that the mets were above average in that catagory.

I doubt Cameron will manage to be an improvement over what the Mets got defensively in CF for 2003.

Over the last 3 years, UZR has Cameron averaging +28 runs. Here's what the Mets had in CF last year:

Jeff Duncan, 366 innings, +19 runs
Timo Perez, 332 innings, +2 runs
Tusyoshi Shinjo, 255 innings, +9 runs
Jeromy Burnitz, 156 innings, -4 runs
Roger Cedeno, 131 innings, +1 run
Raul Gonzalez, 109 innings, +5 runs
Prentice Redman, 55 innings, -1 run

That's a total of +31 runs, thanks in large part to Duncan's amazing 366 innings. It's unlikely Cameron will be able to match +31 runs (although he did do that in 2003).

However, if we're comparing Cameron to what the Mets could expect to get in 2004, he's most definitely an improvement, unless you believe Duncan wasn't a fluke, and is on the level of Darin Erstad defensively.
   7. Chris Dial Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614899)
In Clutch there is a link to a BattersBox article on College pitchers. While reading that, I noticed the Hot Topics included
this preview.

Gwyn Price wrote a very, very good piece, and if I didn't know I wrote this piece without seeing that one, I would doubt it. The two are uncannily similar and that one was posted 24 hours ahead of this one (and 12 hours ahead of me sending it to our editor).

Gwyn makes a nice observation about Seo's FB tendencies, with Cameron in CF. And also notes the statement the Met front office made about Cameron catching 70 FBs the 2003 Met CFs did not (I heard that on the mlb gamecast listening to the game the other day).

There is also additional minor league information.

I'd say the two articles are complimentary, but they are very, very similar. I hope no one at BB, particularly Gwyn, gets the wrong idea about this article.

What bothers me most is I have seen work grossly similar to my previously published work, and have suspected that ideas were "borrowed"; I see now two nearly identical articles, and I'm the second one. I feel a bit foolish, and want to call attention to Gwyn's piece. I can't recall this ever happening to me, and I want to apologize for, well, generating the same article, albeit honestly.
   8. 3AM Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614900)
Sorry for the formatting there. Let me try again...

<table cellspacing=2 cellpadding=2>
<tr>
<td><center>Player</center></td>
<td><center>Innings</center></td>
<td><center>UZR Runs</center></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jeff Duncan</td>
<td><center>366</center></td>
<td><center>+19</center></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Timo Perez</td>
<td><center>332</center></td>
<td><center>+2</center></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Tusyoshi Shinjo</td>
<td><center>255</center></td>
<td><center>+9</center></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jeromy Burnitz</td>
<td><center>156</center></td>
<td><center>-4</center></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Roger Cedeno</td>
<td><center>131</center></td>
<td><center>+1</center></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Raul Gonzalez</td>
<td><center>109</center></td>
<td><center>+5</center></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Prentice Redman</td>
<td><center>55</center></td>
<td><center>-1</center></td>
</tr>
</table>
   9. scott Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614901)
i'm shocked that Cedeno comes out to +1 in CF with UZR. i coulda sworn he was a butcher in the outfield last year.

i also didn't realize that Duncan was that good in CF last year.
   10. Chris Dial Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614903)
3AM,
are you sure that isn't "UZR/162"? That would make Cameron 12 runs better than Duncan over a season.

Here's the breakdown:
Duncan 366 IP, 136 PO, ZR .901 (which means he didn't catch 15 balls).
Timo 332 IP, 98 PO, ZR .842 (which means in Duncan's chances, he would have caught 127 balls)

So, Duncan, in comparable innings caught, effectively, 9 more balls then Timo - which is *not* 19 runs. It's 5 runs. Of course, over a full season, which is about 4 times as many IP as either played, Duncan would be +20 runs better than Timo (20 to 0, as compared to what 3AM posted as 19 to 2).

And that ignores Duncan's small sample size. Duncan had an unusally high number of plays available in CF. Maybe Howe played him behind Seo more (or other FB pitching). Over a full season, his chances would decrease.

Cameron's *career* ZR is 10 points higher than Duncan's. Last season it was 20 points higher. Cameron is a much better fielder.
   11. Chris Dial Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:12 PM (#614904)
Dang, 9 more balls to CF is closer to 7.5 runs, not 5 runs. Which is actually about 29 runs over a full season (like Cameron - who I would have at closer to 10 runs better than Timo - or 39 runs over a season, 10 runs better than Duncan)). Duncan's sample size and chances/game is correct.
   12. Roadblock Jones Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614905)
Good job. As usual, a lot needs to go right for the Mets.

I can close my eyes real hard and picture Glavine turning it around, and I can hope that Piazza and Floyd will be healthy all year, and I almost expect that whoever emerges for No. 5 will survive better than did that awful mix last year.

But I cannot imagine Ty Wigginton suddenly learning how to go to his right. That worries me as much or more than anything on this team.
   13. Sam M. Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614911)
I could not agree more with RossyW. UZR says Cedeno was a decent (even slightly better than average) CF last year? Nonsense. He was horrendous. If I recall MGL's riffs on this issue in the past, they usually take the form of making very clear that one year's worth of data is not a reliable basis for evaluating a player's defense, and if this doesn't prove that -- in spades -- nothing does.

In addition, I'd add that I think Duncan was good, but not nearly so good as the UZR numbers suggest. What this has me thinking is that there may be some stadium factor, or funky team defensive strategy in positioning the outfielders or handling the plays in right-center and left-center, mucking up the data.

In any event, I have no doubt at all that Cameron will seriously upgrade their actual defensive performance and reliability in center field.

And, on another matter: on a team with (1) an aging slugging catcher/first baseman, (2) an injury-prone slugging left fielder, (3) an unproven shortstop, (4) an aging rotation, (5) a second baseman learning the position at the major league level, (6) an ancient bullpen, and (7) Art Howe as the manager, whether Ty Wigginton can go to his right can't be the biggest concern. It just can't! He's an OK stopgap, and may surprise with something even a bit better than that.
   14. 3AM Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614912)
3AM, are you sure that isn't "UZR/162"? That would make Cameron 12 runs better than Duncan over a season.

Yes, I'm positive. Duncan's UZR/162 is 68, his UZR for 2003 is 19.

I seriously doubt that Duncan really was THAT good, I'm just pointing out what UZR says.

BTW, BPro has Duncan at 11 RAR, and 13 RAR2.

Like I said, Cameron is obviously a big improvement over what the Mets could expect in 2004, since Duncan's amazing defense was almost certainly a fluke.
   15. Rickroll the Mets (OFF) Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614913)
The problem with Wigginton wasn't really his shoulder, it was the fact that after the first month, he swung at pretty much anything that was close to the plate:

13/87 BB/ABs
4/105 BB/ABs
6/104 BB/ABs
5/102 BB/ABs
10/90 BB/ABs
8/82 BB/ABs

He is going to bat 8th this season, and if he doesn't learn to take a pitch, he isn't going to improve a whole lot.
   16. Roadblock Jones Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614914)
And, on another matter: on a team with (1) an aging slugging catcher/first baseman, (2) an injury-prone slugging left fielder, (3) an unproven shortstop, (4) an aging rotation, (5) a second baseman learning the position at the major league level, (6) an ancient bullpen, and (7) Art Howe as the manager, whether Ty Wigginton can go to his right can't be the biggest concern. It just can't! He's an OK stopgap, and may surprise with something even a bit better than that.

All of those things are big concerns but I can convince myself in Springtime that at least 6 of those 8 can go right, and/or have *the ability* to go right and/or have gone right at some point in the past. (You might have got me on Art Howe too).

I just don't believe Wigginton will ever possess the ability to be a good defensive player at third base... Perhaps positioning and knowledge of the hitters gets him a little bit better, but only so much: His hands are and arm are fine but how much can one can really do to improve reflexes and quickness? I think these are things you generally either have or don't have.

I know Wiggs is a stopgap and the Mets won';t likely get to the point at which they need a flawless contribution as the final peice to the puzzle. But on a team whose ability to contend depends so heavily on two lefty starters who don't strike out that many guys, it's a legit concern.


   17. Rickroll the Mets (OFF) Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614916)
Damn. My html skillz suck, but here are the month by month breakdowns of Wigginton's BB/ABs:

[April 13/87 BB/ABs] [May 4/105 BB/ABs] [June 6/104 BB/ABs] [July 5/102 BB/ABs] [August 10/90 BB/ABs] [September 8/82 BB/ABs]
   18. APNY Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614917)
If I recall MGL's riffs on this issue in the past, they usually take the form of making very clear that one year's worth of data is not a reliable basis for evaluating a player's defense, and if this doesn't prove that -- in spades -- nothing does.

In any event, I have no doubt at all that Cameron will seriously upgrade their actual defensive performance and reliability in center field


I'm not sure what you mean here. MGL's point is that you shouldn't use smaller samples to measure ability, but it has nothing to do with actual performance.

Cedeno may be the worst defensive CF ever, and if he were to play a few hundred games out there the numbers would then say so, but his actual contribution to the Mets in CF last year was (according to UZR) +1. Of course it says nothing about his ability, this info is drawn from less than 15 games played, but it still measures his actual contribution.

Likewise, the total actual performance of Mets CF was +31. Unless there is some strange park factor helping Mets CF (doubtful), there is very little chance Cameron's actual performance will be an upgrade from last year (though as mentioned earlier, it is probably an upgrade from what you could expect if you used the same players as last year).
   19. Sam M. Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614918)
Cedeno may be the worst defensive CF ever, and if he were to play a few hundred games out there the numbers would then say so, but his actual contribution to the Mets in CF last year was (according to UZR) +1.

That's a very good point, and very well expressed. Which means, I guess, that I'm saying UZR is fundamentally flawed in some way as a measurement of Cedeno's actual defensive "contribution" to the Mets in CF last year. That doesn't mean that it's flawed generally, or that it doesn't often (perhaps almost always) accurately measure defensive contributions. But it means, for me at least, that it is definitely not always right. Because it isn't right in this one case.

God, MGL is just going to roast me for this one . . . . Dial, help me out here! ;-)
   20. APNY Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614920)
I guess, that I'm saying UZR is fundamentally flawed in some way as a measurement of Cedeno's actual defensive "contribution" to the Mets in CF last year.

I didn't watch the Mets at all last year, so i'm in no position to make judgements based on observation, but we have to remember how tiny Cedeno's sample in CF was. Even if he is truly terrible, I have no problem believing a truly terrible CF can have a 15 game stretch where he was barely above average.

That doesn't mean that it's flawed generally, or that it doesn't often (perhaps almost always) accurately measure defensive contributions. But it means, for me at least, that it is definitely not always right. Because it isn't right in this one case.

This arguement is made often about various players, and it always bothers me. Mike Cameron's "greatness" is based almost entirely on his UZR score. Well, the exact same system that game Cameron his score is what gave Cedeno his. The whole point behind statistical evaluation of defense is to not let our impressions (Jeter RULES!!!) interfere with what the data tells us (Jeter sucks).

Now, i'm not saying this is right or wrong. But I am saying it is wrong to selectivly use a stat when it agrees with you.

Also of note, RAA also rates Cedeno as +1 in CF, so therefore two entirely separate systems would have to be incorrect in this case.

Anyway, this is kind of irrelevant to the main point. Even if Cedeno was bad in CF last, it was in such a small sample that it wouldn't impact the overall numbers. Lets say he was Bernie Williams bad, then his UZR in the 15 games he played would be a -3. Then the Mets overall CF performance changes from +31 to +27. It would still be improbable that Cameron could beat that.

   21. 3AM Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614922)
Back in January, I took a look at difference between the Mets 2003 and 2004 defense.

http://s94232061.onlinehome.us/entries/00000010.html#comments
http://s94232061.onlinehome.us/entries/00000011.html#comments
   22. Chris Dial Posted: March 07, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614923)
3AM, thanks for bringing your analysis to the party - nice work at your blog. Remind me to stop in more often.

Thanks guys for the compliments. It must have been okay - no Braves fans showed up to call me a crackpot. ;-)

3AM does some other Mets analysis at his site (on 1/25) that works with ZIPS projections, and he comes up with about a 730/760 RS/RA number, posting about a 78-84 record. Mets fans should bookmark it - maybe that'll put the pressure on him to keep up the good work.
   23. Sam M. Posted: March 08, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614932)
This arguement is made often about various players, and it always bothers me. Mike Cameron's "greatness" is based almost entirely on his UZR score. Well, the exact same system that game Cameron his score is what gave Cedeno his. The whole point behind statistical evaluation of defense is to not let our impressions (Jeter RULES!!!) interfere with what the data tells us (Jeter sucks).

Now, i'm not saying this is right or wrong. But I am saying it is wrong to selectivly use a stat when it agrees with you.


I don't disagree with that. At the least, it's incumbent upon someone who claims a metric is wrong as to X player to explain the unique (or nearly unique) factors that lead it to be inaccurate for him, but not more generally. And it needs to be more than, "Well, I see the guy play every day and let me tell you, last June he made a play . . . ."

So here goes. Just a theory, mind you. But consider what UZR would say about a center fielder about whom the following is true:

1) He has reasonably good speed and can make the very routine plays well.

2) On plays requiring even a modicum of skill (a ball hit relatively hard; a liner in his direction but not right to him), he routinely gets a terrible jump and misjudges the play.

3) The team has a left fielder who is slow when healthy and, to make matters worse, is playing with a foot injury. It also is playing with a slow right fielder.

4) Because of # 3, the team decides to tell the center fielder -- who remember, has decent speed and can handle the routine fly balls with relative ease -- to take every relatively routine fly ball in left-center, and as many as possible in right-center.

In other words, while he can't make many plays an average center fielder would make (i.e., he's a bad center fielder), he ends up making (because of a team strategic need/decision) a lot of plays most center fielders don't make. But the only reason other center fielder's don't make those plays is because the team doesn't need them to -- they have competent and healthy left and right fielders.

Wouldn't UZR see him as performing unusually well, attributing the number of catches to his performance rather than the circumstances and the team's decision?

Now, I don't know whether # 4 was true, but I am quite sure ## 1-3 were true of Roger Cedeno last season. And the fact that Duncan -- who actually IS a good center fielder -- compiled astonishingly good numbers while playing next to Floyd gives me at least some basis for believing # 4 may be true, too. Unless I'm misremembering the sequence, most of Duncan's playing time in center field coincided with the period after the Cedeno experiment flopped and before Floyd had surgery. And, I believe it's also true that the numbers for the Mets' center fielders who held the position after Floyd left the line-up don't seem nearly as skewed (i.e., positive).

Anyway, that's my theory. I hope it makes more sense than the lame stuff offered in defense of Jeter's defense, but in any event, I remain confident that the Mets will get far better center field play out of Mike Cameron than anything they got last year. He'll cover for Floyd (or he won't need to as much because Floyd is healthier), AND make the plays a superb center fielder makes.
   24. Mike Emeigh Posted: March 08, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#614935)
Unless I'm misremembering the sequence, most of Duncan's playing time in center field coincided with the period after the Cedeno experiment flopped and before Floyd had surgery.

Nope. Duncan played 197 2/3 innings next to Timo Perez in LF, only 108 1/3 innings next to Floyd.

Nonetheless, I think Sam M's basic observation might be valid. Every Mets CF was above average in UZR except for Burnitz (-4 in 20 games) and Redman (-1 in 7 games). In addition to Duncan's +19, Raul Gonzalez was +5 in 13 games, a rate nearly as good as Duncan's rate. All of the Met LF's, on the other hand, had negative UZR except for Gonzalez (+4 in 27 games, mostly with Perez and Duncan in CF) and Super Joe (+1 in 9 games). Burnitz was -4 in just 9 games in LF, while being above-average in RF. I think it's possible to conclude from that the Mets could have deployed their defense to have the CFs cover for the LFs.

-- MWE
   25. Chris Dial Posted: March 16, 2004 at 11:16 PM (#615136)
Mets CF deployment. The problem is BIPs don't work exactly like that. The Met CF can't cover both RF *and* LF.

Duncan appears to have such good marks, based on my observation because he catches a different subset of balls hit to CF. Mike can check some of this based on line drives Duncan caught. Duncan is also very fast and can make up some of his ZR issues because he can get back on plenty of balls. He was not, AFAICT, covering for either corner OF.

Duncan had a good season, and could be a fine defensive replacemnt, because he can't hit.
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