Seattle Mariners
Did you ever have that dream where you're falling, like there's suddenly nothing to support you, and all you can do is wait to hit bottom? And then you wake up and realize you're still safe and snug in bed, except maybe your feet are sticking out from under the covers?
Well, if you have, then you should be able to relate to the 2002 Seattle Mariners. After what seemed like a massive late-season collapse, the Mariners still tied with the Boston Red Sox for the best record in the major leagues among non-playoff teams. They were still in contention until the final days of the season. And they did it in the toughest division in baseball.
So why did it seem like Seattle had such a terrible season? Because they were coming off two straight ALCS appearances, and 116 wins, and because they had such a great start that it looked like first place would belong to them all season. Instead, they struggled at the same time Oakland and Anaheim surged, and ended up in third place. But they had the best record of any third-place team, and were one of only two third-place teams with winning records (the other being the Dodgers).
And now it seems that the most important thing the Mariners do is nothing. In fact, GM Pat Gillick has become notorious for inaction, a reputation solidified both by the 2002 trading deadline and the subsequent offseason. It's important to remember that on the last trading deadline, Seattle was in first place by two games and also had the wild card as a safety net. Failing to make an acquisition more substantial than Doug Creek was justifiable at the time. But after a third place finish, there's less defense for such a quiet offseason.
Probably the most significant occurrence of this past winter for Seattle was the departure of longtime manager Lou Piniella, who presided over nearly all the success that the Mariners ever experienced. Lou spoke to the base-thrower in all of us. Now, new manager Bob Melvin will try to improve on Piniella's results. There's room to do so.
But what of the Mariner players themselves? What can we expect from them?
Catcher
Dan Wilson is a well-liked member of the organization with a good defensive reputation. And he may have had a career year in 2002, hitting .295 and posting an OPS+ of 98. However, not only will Wilson probably not be worth $7 million over the next two years, he probably could have been had for less. He's also strained his left side, so the season will be started by Ben Davis, who should get more playing time this year. Davis has a big advantage in his youth; he'll likely be superior offensively to Wilson in 2003.
First Base
John Olerud is consistent and good--not Rafael Palmeiro consistent and good, but close. He's never had an OPS+ below 110, and has played in over 150 games for the past six years. And his contract is for two years at only $15.4 million. In short, Olerud's an incredible bargain for a player with a .404 career on-base percentage. The Mariners deserve a lot of credit for getting this deal done way back in early December.
Second Base
Well, after the first half of 2002, it looked like Boone may have reverted from 2001's majestic, hitting eagle to a less-majestic, not-hitting albatross. However, Boone finished strong, very strong, and ended up with a 118 OPS+, making him one of the most productive second basemen in the league. In equation form: (118 OPS+) + (Good Defense at Second Base) = Worth $8 Million. We'll see if he keeps producing at that rate. If he stays close, his contract will look pretty good.
Shortstop
The non-tendering of Desi Relaford leaves Seattle without much of a viable option at shortstop if Carlos Guillen once again contracts tuberculosis or small pox or typhoid fever or some other disease people are only supposed to get in period films. Just in case, Edgar Martinez--always a gamer--is taking grounders at short. As for Guillen, he's entering his age-27 season, and is a respectable hitter for a shortstop. And this may be his last year as Seattle's starting shortstop, as intriguing options such as Kazuo Matsui wait on the horizon.
Third Base
Once, long ago, there was a mystical elf named David Bell. David Bell had magical fairy dust that allowed his teams to win 116 games or go to the World Series. The Mariners traded David Bell, thinking that they could keep his fairy dust.
They were wrong.
To replace the mystical elf named David Bell, Seattle saw that there were two options. One was the warrior Jeff Cirillo, who dwelt in a high mountain kingdom, where he was blessed with the divine magic of the Goddess Altitudia. When the warrior Cirillo was without her auspices, his power was greatly diminished.
The second option was the knight Scott Rolen, whose dexterity and strength were known throughout the land. However, King Wade of the Phillians demanded, as a ransom for the Knight Rolen, the crown prince of Seattle, Joel Piņeiro. Prince Joel was to be the King of the Mariners. So the Mariners gambled on Jeff Cirillo, betting that he could learn to thrive without the good grace of Altitudia.
They were wrong.
Now, the Mariners can either hope for Cirillo to return to the productive hitter he once was, or they can remove some of the air from Safeco Field. They are currently looking into the cost of 5000' stadium stilts.
Left Field
Randy Winn was delivered to Seattle from Tampa Bay in exchange for Lou Piniella, and some hope he marks the end of Seattle's long-standing tradition of having a big hole in left field. However, those expecting a big improvement in offense from left will likely be disappointed. Winn hit .298/.360/.461 last year, and has hit .279/.342/.400 over his career. Seattle leftfielders in 2002 hit .277/.365/.424--in pitcher-friendly Safeco Field. However, Winn will provide a substantial upgrade defensively.
Center Field
Mike Cameron, productive though he is on offense and defense, may be hurt more than the usual amount by playing in Safeco Field. Over the past three years, Cameron's posted a .917 OPS on the road and a .684 at home. He's hit 50 home runs on the road, and just 19 at home. So it's understandable that Seattle would consider trading him, though his status as a fan-favorite may deter them from doing so. He'd likely have more value elsewhere.
Right Field
Ichiro Suzuki's 2002 season was just about as good as his 2001 campaign, which culminated in an MVP award. He's responsible for the Mariners once again leading the major leagues in OBP from the leadoff spot; Seattle's OBP was .379 in that spot, far above second-place Toronto's .355. Ichiro increased his walk total from 30 to 68 between 2001 and 2002, resulting in his on-base percentage rising despite a fairly large drop in batting average. If Ichiro does nothing that he hasn't already, the Mariners should be ecstatic.
Designated Hitter
What can you say about Edgar Martinez? He's a fantastic hitter--the only question is if he can stay healthy. Martinez's contract was another offseason success for Seattle; they bought out his option and resigned him at a cut rate. The Mariners have been shortchanging Edgar for a long time.
The Starting Rotation
Seattle's starting rotation looks like it will include Freddy Garcia, Jamie Moyer, Joel Piņeiro, Ryan Franklin, and Gil Meche. Garcia had a disappointing 2002, after he looked Cy Young-worthy in 2001. However, most of his trouble came from an increased batting average allowed on balls in play and a high home run rate--his strikeout and walk rates were improved. Look for Garcia's 2003 to be much better than his 2002. The contentious nature of his arbitration hearing doesn't bode well for his future with the team, however.
Jamie Moyer negotiated his own option-laden contract, and it appears to be a good one for both him and the Mariners. While a three-year deal for a 40-year-old is of course risky, Moyer has been very good recently and the contract is very reasonable. This was an excellent deal for the Mariners, who had a surprising degree of success retaining their major free agents at good prices.
Joel Piņeiro still shows a great deal of promise, and has already delivered superb results. He's just 24, and he could be the eventual ace of the staff. Ryan Franklin has pitched well the past two years, and deserves the fourth spot. And Gil Meche, back from protracted injury problems, will hope to repeat the success he had in 1999 and 2000. Still, a rotation with this much youth and inexperience would have been well-served to keep the capable swing man they had in John Halama.
The Bullpen
Seattle should have a good bullpen in 2003, led again by Kazuhiro Sasaki, Arthur Rhodes, and Jeff Nelson. Shigetoshi Hasegawa will also have a place. The remaining spots are up for grabs between right-handers Rafael Soriano, J.J. Putz, Ken Cloude, and Julio Mateo. The release of the injured Norm Charlton basically ensures that Rhodes will be the only left-hander in the bullpen.
The Bench
The acquisition of Greg Colbrunn was a terrific one for a Seattle team that had a great deal of trouble pinch-hitting in 2002. Mariner pinch-hitters hit .208 with an OPS of .510 last year. If Colbrunn approaches his recent production in 2003, the Mariners will see huge improvement from their bench.
The Mariners also acquired John Mabry, who hit fairly well with Oakland last year, but even the deepest abysses in Mabry's career aren't as bad as Seattle's 2002 pinch hitters, so Mabry should be an improvement anyway. Willie Bloomquist also might be expected to make the team based partly on his success at the end of last year. And Mark McLemore will continue to provide Seattle with some versatility, particularly if he keeps up his strange late-in-life surge in offensive production.
There are still three competing teams in the AL West, and they're close enough in talent that they could conceivably finish in any order. However, the Mariners are getting older on offense, and may have a tougher road ahead of them than their competition--particularly last year's division champion, the Oakland Athletics. Still, there's no reason at this point to dismiss any of the three, as we prepare for what should be another exciting race to win the AL West.
2003 ZiPS
Projections - Click for info
PO Player G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG
C Wilson 113 347 36 94 17 1 7 39 19 72 2 1 .271 .312 .386
1B Olerud 155 556 82 162 40 0 19 96 96 73 1 1 .291 .400 .466
2B Boone 150 584 89 167 34 2 26 108 48 103 8 7 .286 .347 .485
3B Cirillo 146 524 56 133 27 1 8 60 43 67 7 5 .254 .319 .355
SS Guillen 133 453 70 120 22 5 8 54 48 84 4 3 .265 .337 .389
LF Winn 145 548 73 150 30 7 10 60 55 97 22 9 .274 .346 .409
CF Cameron 157 549 90 139 28 4 24 88 78 160 29 8 .253 .355 .450
RF Suzuki 159 671 117 225 30 8 8 58 55 58 41 15 .335 .391 .440
DH Martinez 119 420 62 120 32 0 20 90 77 83 2 1 .286 .404 .505
c Davis 108 336 40 84 14 0 10 49 44 82 3 2 .250 .342 .381
c Borders 88 300 29 64 14 1 6 23 11 58 2 3 .213 .248 .327
1b-of Mabry 101 203 25 50 12 0 8 34 15 49 0 1 .246 .305 .424
1b Colbrunn 86 217 28 62 16 1 9 31 23 28 0 1 .286 .366 .493
if Bloomquist 123 424 55 109 17 2 2 36 29 52 19 8 .257 .311 .321
if Ugueto 113 312 41 76 8 3 2 28 28 81 14 5 .244 .313 .308
ut McLemore 116 384 60 98 20 3 5 43 65 73 23 14 .255 .364 .362
of Snelling 90 339 46 91 13 6 5 37 33 51 7 3 .268 .339 .386
PO Player W L ERA G GS IP H ER HR BB SO
SP Garcia 12 11 3.88 32 32 211 197 91 21 61 169
SP Moyer 11 12 4.45 32 32 200 212 99 26 49 125
SP Pineiro 10 9 3.86 36 25 175 164 75 17 50 138
SP Franklin 5 7 4.61 37 13 121 127 62 20 27 83
SP Meche 4 6 5.00 23 16 81 75 45 10 43 69
SP Soriano 4 6 4.66 22 20 110 99 57 16 50 107
RP Mateo 4 4 3.95 49 0 66 60 29 8 20 59
RP Hasegawa 6 8 4.68 56 0 73 74 38 6 31 45
RP Nelson 4 4 4.03 61 0 58 41 26 3 39 71
RP Rhodes 9 3 2.65 69 0 68 51 20 5 16 81
CL Sasaki 4 3 3.54 64 0 61 49 24 7 20 70
ZiPS is not a playing time predictor and should not be added for team totals.
Dan 'The Boy' Werr
Posted: March 26, 2003 at 12:00 AM |
11 comment(s)
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Anyway, thanks Dan. Regarding Cirillo, do you think that it's only the park that has affected him? He hit well for five years in Milwaukee before going to Colorado, and has a very public feud with the now-departed manager. Mariners fans can, I think, pin some hope on a return to form by Cirillo now that his bete noire is impersonating Vesuvius down in Florida.
If you can't sign your top draft picks and you rely constantly on veteran fill-ins, there's only so much you can do long-term. I've yet to see any evidence that Gillick is able to make long-term plans without the aid of Beeston and Bavasi (pace Rob Dudek)
Projected lineup and OBP:
<font>Ichiro .391
Winn .346
Edgar/Colbrunn .385 ([.404+.366] / 2)
Olerud .400
Boone .347
Cameron .355
Guillen .337
Wilson/Davis .327 ([.312+.342] / 2)
Cirillo .319</font></pre>
That lineup will score a lot of runs. I think the Mariners will, again, have the best offense in the AL West (after accounting for park factors).
It's their pitching that worries me. I think Garcia will be fine this year, but Moyer and Pineiro have me scared. If either of them is ineffective or injured for a large part of this season, the Ms will be in trouble.
Partly true, but that is overstating it a bit. And who overachieved last year? Dan Wilson did, I suppose. Pretty much all the other regulars played as well or worse than you might expect. Mike Cameron didn't overachieve last year. Ichiro! didn't overachieve last year. Edgar, Olerud, Cirillo (definitely), Boone, and Guillen didn't overachieve last year. A few of them had good years, but no one had a flukey-good year last year. Regression due to aging I expect to see, but regression from overachieving? I don't see it.
I'll agree that if Edgar Martinez gets 600 plate appearances,
I am not counting on that. My optimistic lineup assumes that Martinez and Colbrunn split time equally at DH. I am optimistic that Edgar will play more than a half season in 2003; he had his hamstring removed (or something like that) last year and he still played more than 50% of the season (97 games, 400+ PA).
Carlos Guillen doesn't spend a day on the DL,
Carlos Guillen will probably play in 130-150 games in 2003. So what? He isn't much of an offensive or defensive standout anyway. Losing him will hurt when it happens, but I don't think it will hurt that much. So they play Willie "I once hit .400!" Bloomquist for 25 scattered games at SS over the year. Is that really going to sink the Mariners? According to ZiPS, the offensive difference between them won't be that large, .265/.337/.389 vs. .257/.311/.321 - how many runs can that possible cost them over 30 games?
Randy Winn makes another all-star team,
I was using ZiPS predictions when formulating my optimism; those numbers hardly look All-Starry for Winn: .274/.346/.409 would be good, but not a star.
and Gil Meche and Ryan Franklin can start 30 effective games each, this team has a very good chance to contend.
Like I said, pitching worries me. But still, no team in the majors ever needs 30 effective starts from their 5th starter.
The most starts, effective or otherwise, any team got from it's 5th starter last year was the 24 Atlanta got from Jason Marquis (5.04 ERA), followed by the 23 LA got from Omar Daal (3.90 ERA in Dodger Stadium; 97 ERA+). Last year the Mariners got 12 starts from their "5th starter" (Ryan Franklin; they got another 10 from Halama).
And, Dan, Halama? PLEASE! He's of no value as a swing man, as his polarized relief/starter splits suggest. He should only be used as a long reliever.
Correct me if I am wrong, but these ZiPS predictions do not take defense into account, correct?
This team could win the division and has a good shot at the wild card. Oakland's pythag last year was 96 wins and they're not hugely improved. I expect Anaheim to fall back, to maybe around 89 wins.
On the other hand, this team is "headed in the wrong direction." And I think everyone knows this -- they're old, the next couple years are pretty much it.
But my question for David is "what else could they have done?" They won 116 games in 2001, so there's no reason to have overhauled the roster for 2002. So what should they have done during the 2002-2003 offseason? You are claiming that they do not have ML-ready players in their system, so even if they had let Olerud, Martinez, and Moyer go they would not have been able to move into rebuilding mode.
Were there better players available at a good price than Olerud, Martinez and Moyer? The only ones that spring to mind might be Alfonzo and Durham -- but they already have a 2B.
Edgar's probably gone after this year, Olerud after 2, and Moyer after 2 if he doesn't pitch well. Two years from now the kids they have should be ML ready (or busts) and then they'll be ready to rebuild.
To me the Ms had about 3 choices: (1) resign their quality vets in hopes of competing these next 2 years; (2) dump their vets and make one big FA signing (Thome was pretty much the only option); (3) sign cheap vets to ensure a last-place finish but save money. Since the franchise seems to be generating revenue out the wing-wang, there's less incentive to go with (3).
I seem to remember a very similar debate about the Giants last offseason. "Will the Mariners be competitive?" is at least two questions, and they have different answers, in my opinion. My answers are as follows:
In 2003: Very likely
Beyond 2003: Not enough information
Now, your answers are quite possibly different.
Suffice to say I don't believe this organization is "headed in the wrong direction" because I believe that phrase to be nearly meaningless (no offense, Walt). There are a million intentional and unintentional things that can affect the Mariners' future campaigns, and to blame them right now for the predicted failure of those future campaigns appears to me to be misguided. There is no one right way to build a competitive baseball team, and without any information on how Seattle intends to be competitive a year or more from now, I don't think it's correct to criticize their efforts. Quite simply, they aren't done yet, and you need to see everything they do before you evaluate what they did.
You may disagree with my philosophy there, which is fine by me; we may well start with differing base assumptions, and if we do, that's that.
Now, about 2003:
No, I do not think the Mariners need to have everyone stay healthy and not regress to remain competitive. In fact, the Mariners had several injuries in 2002 and 2001 (Edgar, Nelson, Buhner, Franklin, Charlton) and yet were able to compete.
I also strongly disagree that the Mariners are overpaying for nearly every player on the roster. In fact, I thought the Mariners got three great deals on their top free agents this year.
As I said above, the Mariners have a hard road in an anything-can-happen division, but I don't think their chances are too much worse than Oakland or Anaheim's, and I certainly think they're better than Texas's. Unfortunately, there's no definitive way to settle that question (not even watching the season play out is too satisfactory--and before someone accuses me of hedging bets, let me say I'd gladly take a gentleman's bet on Seattle landing in first or second in the AL West), so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Sorry I don't have time to write more, and I'll try to respond to the more specific posts a little later (those topics are more fun anyway).
Why should I take offense, I was quoting David. OK David said "going completely the wrong way" but close enough.
All I meant in my piece is that the Ms best players are all old nor do they have many young promising players currently on the roster, and therefore they are a team heading towards decline. They may of course be able to reverse that decline through prospects of FAs.
So they're currently walking in the wrong direction but are still in a nice neighborhood. Whether they will turn around before entering the O's part of town is, as you say, unknowable. I don't see why that should stop us from pointing out the cliff they're walking towards.
I agree with Dan that the Ms are not exactly over-run with overpaid players and the ones that are aren't overpaid by all that much. Under "unkowable" goes things like "who knew a couple years ago that the labor market would change so much that a good bench player like McLemore now looks badly overpriced?" I'll channel Robert Dudek by noting that pretty much every team has a good $10 M in wasted payroll on the roster.
I will agree with David that the Ms haven't shown much willingness to spend they way it would seem they can.
On park effects, I think David has a point, but it's not that strong of one when it comes to the Ms-Rangers comparison. Last year the Rangers scored 5.20 runs per game and the Ms 5.02. In 2001, the Ms outscored the Rangers 5.72 to 5.49. Unless you believe that Safeco has NO impact on the Ms run-scoring, it's hard to say the Rangers have been a better offense than the Ms. Given the Rangers 2003 lose Pudge and add Glanville, Teixiera and Blalock better be real good real quick to keep that offense out of decline.
I'm also not clear what Rangers roster David is looking at in terms of seeing nothing but players who'll be better. Huge offensive drop at C, one of the worst hitting CFs in the game, aging players at 1B, RF and DH. AROD is in his prime and unlikely to improve. Mench, Teixiera and Blalock are all young kids who, talented as they may be, aren't likely to set the world on fire this season. That leaves Michael Young as the only player we might expect to be better this year.
Offensively, the Rangers are in pretty much the same boat as the Ms. They have to hope that Gonzalez and Everett will be healthy and productive and that Palmeiro will remain so.
In 2005, will the Rangers offense be better than the Ms? Yeah probably. But after 2004, the Ms will be in perfect shape to rebuild. The difference between the Os and the Ms is that, instead of signing Moyer et al to Conine-type extensions, they're on board for 1-2 years. In 2 years, the Ms will have the exact same rebuilding opportunity they had this offseason, except hopefully their young players will be ready.
Remember, after 2004 (or sooner in some cases), the Ms will have Olerud, Edgar, Moyer (if necessary), Sasaki, McLemore, Boone, Nelson, Rhodes, Wilson, and probably Garcia and Cameron and possibly Ichiro off the books. The remaining blemish will be Cirillo. But other than that mistake, this has not been a team to make Oriole-like long-term commitments to mediocre players. After 2004, this team will have a huge amount of payroll flexibility and some young players ready to go. That's hardly a bad position to be in.
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