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Looking Forward to ... — BTF's Preseason Previews Saturday, March 29, 2008Looking Forward to 2008 - St. Louis CardinalsWhere to start? Well, first, let's everyone take a nice, deep breath. It is extremely unlikely, although possible I suppose, that the Cardinals will only win 70 games and finish last. Last year, they finished right about .500. They have lost three of their veteran core players (Eckstein, Edmonds, and Rolen), but all three were hurt last year, and none of them played really up to par when they were in the lineup, and none of them pitches. The team has replaced Rolen with Troy Glaus, which should involve little loss from last year's playing level, and they have a good plan to replace Edmonds. Shortstop and leadoff man aren't really covered yet, but David Eckstein wasn't all that great at either job last year. So no, I don't see any disasters here.That's not to say that there are no problems. The next four paragraphs are the end of my 2007 Final Update last October:
"I wrote the above yesterday, and let it sit on my computer until today so I could proofread and clarity check with fresh eyes. So guess what happened? Right. Walt Jocketty got fired. The Cardinals are calling it a voluntary parting of the ways, but let's face it. Jeff Luhnow got Walt Jocketty fired. The media here in St. Louis aren't even sugar-coating it as they usually do. They're just openly saying that Cardinal management had a "difference of philosophy" with Jocketty. Management wants to go Jeff Luhnow's way, building from within by means of player development, while Walt knows very well that what Tony La Russa needs is more veteran pitchers. Given all that, none of which I intend to retract, the Cardinals got exceptionally lucky. Tony and Dave did not leave. Also, as it turned out, Walt Jocketty's assistant GM was in fact friends with Jeff Luhnow, and ended up with a big fat promotion to full GM, after the Cards explored the A list GMs and got just as thoroughly rejected as I suspected they would. In addition, the new GM spent several years learning Walt Jocketty and Tony LaRussa's methods, and seems to be applying them. Finally, the Cards were able to trade Scott Rolen, even under fire sale pressure, for as good a player as Troy Glaus. That's a whole lot of luck. Without it, the Cards would, indeed, be looking at the aforementioned 70-win season. So, what now? Those of you who have read my Cardinals comments the last several years will know that I think that Tony La Russa teams are dependent upon their veteran starting pitching. Offense is almost irrelevant, although I imagine there is a level that even Tony can't drop beneath. And those veteran starters for 2008 are? Well, right now, they are Kyle Lohse, which is certainly not adequate. They also have Adam Wainwright, who now counts as a successful veteran pitcher, though not really a proven veteran STARTER. Adam went over 200 innings last year, which might spell trouble, but the trouble has yet to appear. Maybe his years as a reliever got him to an age where he can actually handle that sort of workload (I'm assuming that you all know that heavy workloads are worse on young arms than older ones, especially if it's the first large load). Then there are what I call the Hurtin' Three: Mark Mulder, Chris Carpenter, and Matt Clement, all still unavailable to pitch as of this writing. When will they return? Will they be able to pitch at full effectiveness when they do return? Will the new GM be able to score a mid-season Jeff Weaver-style pickup if they do not return at full speed? If you can answer those questions, I can wrap this preview up quick and give a decent prediction as to where the Cards will finish. Unfortunately, I do not know of anyone (sorry, Will Carroll, not even you) who can actually predict pitcher injury issues. It's still just rolling dice. However, the Cards do have Wainwright, and they do have Braden Looper, and they do have Lohse and Joel Pinero and, I suppose, Todd Wellemyer, and they do have the Hurtin' Three, and they really only need to get three pitcher-seasons of good solid veteran pitching out of the eight of them in order to contend, not just finish about .500. The odds of that are pretty good, but dicey enough that I am totally unwilling to make any predictions about Cardinal contention. I do think the odds are so good that the under-.400 hysteria you're seeing in a lot of publications is a worst-case scenario with maybe a 3% chance of actually happening. You should also note that I have not even mentioned Anthony Reyes. Right now, Reyes is still engaged in some sort of battle with Dave Duncan. Dave wants Anthony to develop a sinking fastball as a ground-ball out pitch, while Reyes wants to stick with his rising fastball, which has been so erratic that it is really the main thing standing between Reyes and the Majors. So far, Reyes does not have a Major League sinking fastball, If he does not develop one by, say, June, he's going to get traded. All that means that his future is so dicey, even in the context of the Cardinals staff, that I have no idea what to predict. He could be anything from a star starter to gone by May. But he does up the number of possible arms from eight to nine, a nd the Cards still only need three good starter seasons. And, as those of you who have been reading my stuff also know, that's just how Tony La Russa is content to operate. Drown him with OK potential, and he'll gamble that he can find a way to sort it out and get quality. His track record is in his favor. That three of the four best arms are the Hurtin' Three is against him. It's still a decent gamble. I guess I could stop writing right now, and just skip the position players, but I suppose I really should make some comments there. I will skip the bullpen, because it's overflowing with decent arms, and still has Jason Isringhausen, and it will have the starters who do not end up in the rotation. It's a strength. I was writing about gambles, wasn't I? So let's talk about the Cardinal outfield. Here's the deal. The Cardinals have six serious outfield candidates. None of them has "superstar" written all over him, but there are six of them, all of whom look like Major Leaguers: Rick Ankiel, Skip Schumacker, Brian Barton, Colby Rasmus, Ryan Ludwick and Chris Duncan. Out of all that, the Cardinals need three solid seasons, one of which has to be a center fielder. Ankiel and Rasmus can certainly play center, and Schumaker and Barton may be able to do that. It's a good gamble. Please note that I have completely written off Juan Gonzalez. He can't stay in the lineup at all, and he's been deeply overrated all his career anyway. Just for more detail, let's go through the six and try to describe them, as best we can at this stage in their careers: Rasmus - Considered the best prospect of the lot. A traditional center fielder with speed, good defense, hitting for average, taking lots of walks, little power. He will open the year in AAA for one reason only: if the Cardinals do that, they gain a whole extra year before arbitration and free agency hit. Likely to be the center fielder by June. Essentially, Jim Edmonds without the homers and a decade younger. Ankiel - Fast, great arm, can play center. Hits for power and average, but won't take a walk. That is, he's Juan Gonzalez with defense, speed, and an arm. Major League pitchers will likely figure out what sort of pitch out of the strike zone that he can't hit and won't lay off, but that hasn't happened yet, and may not happen all this year. A good bet to start and maybe hit 5th or something. Likely to end up in right field when Rasmus arrives. A very old prospect with, consequently, no real chance of getting any better than he is now. Schumaker - Will open the season as a starter because he's hitting .340 in spring training. I don't think that will last and I don't think he will end the season as a starter. A good backup because he can play all the outfield positions in a pinch. His hitting skills are generalized - he has no anchor skill. I regard that as a weakness. But I do think he's a solid upgrade at fourth outfielder. Barton - a Rule 5 draftee who has played himself onto the roster, so the Cards get to keep his future. Has the speed to play center. May open the season as a starter, due to his hot spring, but that should not last. Good future. Duncan - A big ol' power-hitting lefty first baseman who is playing the outfield because Albert Pujols has foot problems and can't play anywhere but first. Currently struggling with something between an injury and Sophomore Slump. I don't expect much of anything until June. After that, well, what Tony WANTS is for Chris to play left field and hit cleanup. He'll get every chance to do that. A decent gamble this year. Better in the future. Ryan Ludwick - The Outfielder of Last Resort. The less he plays, the better the Cards will probably do because it means that they have three outfielders playing better than this known quantity. He's real good off the bench, but just a bit shy of a solid starter. Best case scenario? Duncan in left, Rasmus in center, Ankiel in right. That would mean that all three of them came through. It would be a very good outfield, but it's not likely that ALL of them will come through. Any outfield composed of the best-hitting three of these six, though, should still be OK. Depth abounds, especially at center. Now for the infield. Albert Pujols has played with pain his entire career. He's hitting .400 in the spring. Tony has already said that he's going to give Albert a little more rest, and management dredged up someone named Mather, who supposedly can hit but not field, in case Albert has a problem. I refuse to worry about first base. At third, we have Troy Glaus and absolutely no backup, now that Scott Spezio has gone to whatever sad internal hell he calls home. The greatest risk to the lineup, by a large margin, is that Glaus will get hurt and leave the Cards with a power hole in the middle of the lineup and no serious third baseman. The most solid prediction I can make is that if Troy Glaus gets seriously hurt, Anthony Reyes will get traded for a third baseman. At the keystone, we do have some problems. Adam Kennedy is currently hitting .326 in the spring, so hopefully his 2007 was some sort of freak collapse. There is little behind him, although I think more of Aaron Miles than most do. At the very least, he's a decent backup at second. Shortstop is different. The Cards paid too much money to Cesar Izturis, who is currently acting like he's forgotten how to play baseball. Drove me nuts. Just a few weeks after they signed Cesar, Adam Everett came free agent. If you're going to get a good field/no hit shortstop, why not get a REAL Gold Glove? The Cardinals simply acted too fast, which is the one mistake that the new GM made that Walt Jocketty almost never made. Aaron Miles is not a shortstop. Brendan Ryan can play the spot, but is hurt right now, and not a starter in any case. The Cards need a little luck or a trade here. Finally, we have Yadier Molina at catcher. Last year, Yadier demonstrated that his lousy bat of 2006 was a case of Slump. On the other hand, last year is probably more than he can sustain. I expect a dropoff of some sort, but more like a .255 batting average than the .220 he is hitting now. Essentially, Yadier is a .270-hitting catcher who is going through his early-career adjustments. It's not a problem because he isn't going to be carrying any serious offensive load anyway. Should have won the Gold Glove. Final Prediction: None. There are too many gambles. I think 70 wins is too few, but 95 is too high. Within that range, which is uselessly huge, I think almost everything depends on getting at least some serious pitching out of the Hurtin' Three. I think the Cardinals' chances of getting to the Postseason depend a lot more on the other teams in their division than on their own performance. Wild Card, given the Mets and the Phillies, is asking a lot. But isn't that the story of young teams? Isn't that what generally happens when you try to ditch your vets and build from within? You don't really know what's going to happen, and so you go through a lot of antacid. Fortunately, Tony La Russa and Dave Duncan are used to it, albeit in a different form. Also fortunately, the new Cardinal management seems to be willing to spend money on needed late-term acquisitions, and they know that they need VETERAN STARTING PITCHING. Kyle Lohse may not be a very good pitcher, but he is a very good sign. Maybe Jeff Luhnow can pull this off, after all. With a little help from his veteran management staff. . | |||
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The youngest infielder is Albert who is 28. Who is also the same age as Ankiel. And Schumaker.
Duncan is 26. So that counts. He could take a step forward. And Molina is 25. But with a career slugging percentage of .349 a "power spike" means what?
And the pitching staff is not young. It drags the average age of the team to close to 30.
Contrast that with a team like Milwaukee that has five regulars 26 or younger. Same with the Diamondbacks. Or the Braves who except for Chipper and Mark Kotsay don't have a position player over the age of 30 and guys like McCann and Franceour playing central roles.
St. Louis is young? No, St. Louis is UNPROVEN. And guys who get to "The Show" after age 25 have a greatly reduced chance to be serious ballplayers. It looks as if folks think the Chris Duncan career path is common. It's not. It's the exception.
And I would think folks around here would know better................
How about contrasting the Cardinals with the Brewers when the Brewers first started rebuilding?
Smoltz, Glavine. Hudson at 32 is not exactly young either. You do not get to disregard the pitchers.
I was referencing the position players since the post spent most of its time with the field regulars. And as for the bevy of young pitchers on the Cardinals you have Wainwright and MAYBE Reyes if the team ever decides to let him pitch.
Please, the poster described this team as young. I find that characterization misplaced if not wholly inaccurate. The future of this team is NOW for the bulk of the players involved.
Unless the aging curve as we know it has shifted and 30 is the new 25?
No? Then my point stands................
For "Harvey" - You made a very good argument that the Cardinals have not yet gone "young." I agree with you. But that's not what I wrote, nor is it what you claimed I wrote. I wrote that they are going "younger." As in "compared to Scott Rolen, Jim Edmonds and Juan Encarnacion, almost anything is going 'younger'." I imagine that you'll agree with that and therefore, that we don't have any real disagreement here. But it's not just a semantic issue. The Cards are doing what they can with what they have. What they have is a couple of decent outfield prospects who are old prospects. I wrote that about Ankiel and it applies to Duncan as well. But that's what they have. They don't have a bunch of 22-year-olds ready to go. Ankiel and Duncan are certainly younger than Edmonds and Encarnacion.
About Colby Rasmus and his power - I don't have any thorough studies to back me up here, but I do have an opinion. What I think is that Colby Rasmus does not have a large enough collection of strong enough skills to retain them all when he comes up to the bigs. That is, I don't think he's a #3 hitter in waiting. I think he'll have to concentrate on one set of skills and sacrifice some part of another. Given that his strongest suits seem to be speed and getting on base, and that those are the skills the Cards are most looking for, I expect him to sacrifice some power - by shortening up his stroke or some such thing - to keep the OBP high and use his speed to move himself around the bases. He possibly could sacrifice OBP for power, or bulk up and sacrifice speed, but the Cards already have Rick Ankiel. Rasmus doesn't have Ankiel's power, but he can just blow him away with OBP. I think both he and the Cards recognize this, and he will train himself and be trained as a #1 or #2 hitter, rather than a #4 or #5. Does that help? There was no room to include all that in what was a long enough preview already.
Final apology - In spite of proofreading this thing before I sent it in, I managed to misspell both "Pineiro" and "Wellemeyer". They're names. I can spell regular words very well , due to my mother's genes, but names always trip me up, because they're often spelled oddly. Sorry about that. I'll try to proof harder next time.
umm, the answer is not little loss, but absolutely, positively a plus. I mean rolen was garbage for the cardinals. and the idiots out there like to think that Glaus, the guy who has played 115/153/149 games a season is the same injury risk as the guy who has played 112/142/56....yep. oh, did I forget. Ops+ 2007 Rolen 89, Glaus 120.....damn we are going to struggle to replace that level of production. Heck Eckstein at third would give us that level of offense.... yet some experts actually think our team took a hit from 2007 to 2008 at third... We could almost put Neifi Perez at third for 162 games and break even from the previous season.
I just have to say, WOW..... seriously, Wow.. umm I'm absolutely flabbergasted at this statement, the nicest thing I could say is that is quite possibly Buster Olney level of stupidity. Beyond that.... Wow. ....uh, Wow.. umm what is there to say when you read something that you look at as quite possibly the culmination of the dumbest things ever uttered by a combination of Joe Morgan, Buster Olney and Bob Feller, except ..... Wow. anyone that says something like that should 1.give up any stats analysis and 2. give up any scout analysis. Seriously there is nothing I have ever read on this site as dumb as that highlighted comment.
Not only is Ludwick a starting capable outfielder, but when the season ends he is going to probably be regarded as the Cardinals second best regular player(defense included) and it's not going to be an insult to say that.
really??? have you objectively looked at this team? I keep hearing people whine about this team and I don't see how
the Cardinals have average or better offense projected from every outfield spot, first base, third base, and heck in the national league, our catcher is above average offensively (85 ops+ last season at 24 years old) so we have below average (mind you I don't even agree with that assesment) at second and short... then you look at the rotation and idiots reign supreme when evaluating this team... borderline ace with wainwright, a solid two with Lohse, and a typical back end of the rotation with Looper, Thompson, Wellemeyer... with optimistic returns from any of the others between Clement, Mulder, Carpenter and even Reyes performing as expected, factor in an above average bullpen and you have to wonder, what has to be done to earn respect?
seriously this isn't a team that even Whitey Herzog could drive into the ground, a real manager is easily going to post a .500 record, and fortunately for Cardinal fans, Whitey is no longer managing (neither is Torre) so we have a real good chance of posting above a .500 record.
Now. What was in the back of my head was that "Harvey" had more of a point than I gave him credit for. To be exact, I think I was guilty, in the original preview, of changing standards in the last paragraph. Before then, I was talking about the Cards being chronologically younger than they were. I'm sure I'm right about that. But the last paragraph does, indeed, talk about them being a "young" team. What happened here is that, before the last, I was using "young" in the chronological sense. For example, Duncan and Ankiel are indeed, younger people, chronologically, than Edmonds and Encarnacion.
But in the last paragraph, what I was talking about was Major League service time. I think it is a characteristic of teams whose players haven't been in the Majors long to be difficult to predict. Their abilities haven't settled down enough to really predict well. This includes players who are not young chronologically, but who haven't spent much time in the Majors. That includes people like Ankiel (as a position player) and Duncan. So that's a different standard, and, using that standard, I stand by the comment. However, I didn't make the standards change at all clear, because I wasn't thinking about that when I wrote the preview. So I apologize to "Harvey" about that. However, I don't retract the comment. What I should have written, replacing the first two sentences of the last paragraph, is something like, "But isn't that the story of young teams (in terms of Major League service time. Chris Duncan and Rick Ankiel aren't young players chronologically, but they don't have much ML time in)? Isn't that what generally happens when you try to ditch your vets and build from within?"
I could whine, I suppose, that I also wrote, in that paragraph, "Fortunately, Tony La Russa and Dave Duncan are used to it, albeit in a different form," and that "Harvey" should have known that I didn't mean that Tony and Dave were used to working with kids. But the fault really is mine. I wasn't clear about that, and worse, I get on other writers when they change standards in mid-analysis. So "Harvey" gets an apology here.
Oh. Also, for "Go Warhawks," I don't think I wrote anything optimistic. I think I wrote that the Cards are so dicey that it's impossible to make a serious prediction. I think that's accurate. I don't think that any prediction, horrible, great, or in between, can be justified at this point. I just tried to point out what I think are the parameters of the assorted gambles. I will repeat the one hard thing I did predict - that the quality of the Cardinal campaign will depend more on what they do or don't get out of the Hurtin' Three than on anything else. That is, don't obsess over the offense, or any part of it. Veteran pitching, currently on the DL or on other teams' rosters, will tell the tale.
Learning to play the outfield took away from some time in the cage for Duncan I guess? I don't get your point. I don't even really know how to reply. Speaking of Chris Duncan, Tony likes "damage" in the 2-slot anyway.
Look, here's what you said:
it's wrong. Present tense. If you want to say that he won't hit homers in the bigs because he'll possibly hit leadoff this year or next, be my guest.
I got no dog in this hunt but I don't thin "drags" is the correct verb to use there. Drags implies a lowering. You're looking for a verb that indicates negative rising.
Oh. The Cards. They play in St. Louis.
Don't sell yourself short. You understand completely. I think leadoff hitter is a position. You don't apparently agree with me, but you do understand what I'm saying here and you're not being rude about it, even though you seem to be frustrated. Thanks for that. I also understand that, if you've got two #3 hitters and also a cleanup man, you can afford to put someone like Bobby Bonds in the leadoff spot and that will work really well. With regard to the Cards, what I'm saying is that they're trying to get their power core to be Albert Pujols, Chris Duncan, Troy Glaus and Rick Ankiel. If even three of those four come through, they really will be looking at hitting Colby Rasmus leadoff, presumably replacing Skip Schumaker. And they are really going to want him to maximize his OBP, even if it means doing some slap hitting. I don't think they want to turn him into Brett Butler, but I do think that they are thinking more along the lines of Rickey Henderson (not that Rasmus is THAT good) rather than Bobby Bonds (not that Rasmus is likely to be THAT good, either).
As for Chris Duncan, yes, that is what I understand from insider sources that the Cardinals did. They told him that he was going off extra batting practice and onto extra outfielding practice. They did this at the AAA level, when it became likely that Duncan really could hit Major League pitching well. I will admit that I'm quoting other people about this. I certainly wasn't there in the AAA park to see it.
On the other hand, I'll give you that Rasmus, right now, has shown more power potential than that. When you say "present tense" I have to give you that point. Besides, you're being polite, rather than trying to start a flame war. I appreciate that.
As for "Cardsfanboy," I do suggest you send your comment to Ryan Ludwick; surely you're his greatest fan outside of his family. On the other hand, my understanding is that, unless Chris Duncan's back acts up, the Cardinal outfield on Opening Day is going to be Duncan, Ankiel and Schumaker, with Rasmus starting at AAA. That does undercut your argument just a tad there. As for stupid comments, no, that's not the top end of the mistakes I can make. After all, I was the guy who spent several years just certain that Geronimo Pena would stop getting hurt. That's probably the worst I've ever done, but at least it taught me not to try to project injuries. I'm no good at it.
Rasmus' power and OBP go hand in hand. What he could sacrifice is power for batting average, making sure he makes contact, but he'll have to work earlier in the count to do this. That will affect his OBP presumably.
Leadoff hitter is not a position. It's a spot in the batting order. What matters is that he's the best CF he can be, and creates the most runs he can. The way he does that is XBH and not making outs. It doesn't really matter where that comes from. Is it a bad thing if he ends up standing on second because he hits a ball off the wall instead of singling and then stealing second? Of course not; in fact, that's preferable. He's a better leadoff hitter at .270/.370/.520 than he is at .300/.380/.440. That's just a fact. It's also not a Bad Thing if the Cardinals have more than a handful of guys that can hit the ball over the fence. They are trotting out four starters this year that very well may have slugging percentages below .400. I think they are covered there.
The question mark at the end of the sentence about Duncan isn't because I didn't know that he's taken a lot of fungos out in left field. That's solely because he's wearing a glove he'd not worn until that point. He changed positions, it's a necessity that he learns how to play the outfield (well, maybe not apparently) at the major league level if there's a "7" next to his name on the lineup card. It is just not a good example of what you are trying to say. Your best shot would be to say that he should be wary of the strikeouts and sustainability of major league success with a high strikeout rate, something like the arguments that are made all the time about Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard. But still, that has nothing to do with his spot in the lineup. Just being a productive major leaguer.
Kyle is 29. He is a right-handed Eric Milton. Meaning give him a defense, five runs a game and a ballpark with deep power alleys and Kyle will win more than he loses. Barring that he is just a guy. And just a guy is not a solid number 2 starter.
That's nothing close to analysis or thorough, but hopefully it's illustrative of what I'm trying to say here. That the whole idea of him somehow raising his OBP by hitting for less power is way off. Unless he turns himself into an extremely high average hitter, it's not going to happen. All the while sacrificing total bases which are good in any spot in the lineup. The whole idea is to get back to home plate, so it's a good thing to be closer, no? So he hits some solo shots - he'll have the most plate appearances on the team. Fine with me.
Anyway, I expect him to hit number 2 anyway. I really do.
Cardsfanboy, I couldn't disagree with you more. Lohse's a number 4 with a bullet. Harvey's is spot on about this. The cards have a #2 in Wainwright, a number #4 in Piniero, a #4 in Looper, a something in Reyes, and a ? in the fifth spot.
I know the Cards are hated on this site (esp. by retro-shiite, and Harvey's has a personal beef against TLR), but the Cards should have gotten a better preview than this. Where are the in depth roster break downs that the Tigers got, projections, any of that stuff? In response, to prove I'm not just some whiner, I'll be posting my season preview before the end of the day.
I do not "hate" Tony LaRussa. I have written REPEATEDLY as to LaRussa's skill as a manager.
I just acknowledge the faults. Of which there are several.
As to the Cardinals being "hated" it's more a reflection of the PREVIOUS fan base that populated BBTF. Once upon a time there were Cardinal fans posting here who took special delight in raining scorn on their divisional rivals. Now, not so much. Though I am sure it has nothing to do with the team being less successful. That wouldn't speak well for the "best baseball fans in the country".
Yes, you do. Why you're afraid of that admission is beyond me.
As Harvey said, it's due to the previous fan base. They began leaving when St. Louis wasn't winning 95 games because they didn't want their previous taunting to come back to haunt them.
That said, I do take delight in the Cardinals being out of the division race, but I don't have anything against Cardinals fans. Well, those fans that don't repeate the "best baseball fans in the country" mantra.
"The Cardinals are going younger? Really??" is what you said in post #4. Would you say that they are not going younger
If your point is that the Cardinals are not young, then sure, it stands. Your point in #4 appeared to be that they are not going younger.
The Cardinals not being young does not make the Braves young, not unless you cherrypick and squint.
Most Cardinals fans I know hate this (Sporting News invention?) more than you do. Trust me.
Good grief. If pointing out that it is hypocritcal to b*tch about your player being struck by a pitched ball when you clearly advocate playing a tough brand of baseball, which is shown in the HBP totals among other things, is "hate" then you and others have a different definition than I do.
By the way , has mgl mathematically proven that the Junior Spivey acquisition was indeed a net positive for the Cardinals?
Have you checked the Braves POSITION players lately? Here is what I found among the regulars designated to start the season:
C Brian McCann Age 24
2b Kelly Johnson Age 26
ss Yunel Escobar Age 25
rf Jeff Francoeur Age 24
That's four regulars YOUNGER than Chris Duncan.
Bold used since you are such a fan.
Now if you care to refute facts, which are easily checked, I will be fascinated to follow whatever mental gymnastics you have planned.
Maybe the 2008 Cardinals are the 1978 Brewers. Maybe Rick Ankiel is Gorman Thomas. Maybe Schumaker is Ben Ogilvie. Maybe Rasmus is their Paul Molitor.
And maybe I am Burt Lancaster....................
Again, why are you ignoring Smoltz, Glavine and Hudson? They are not going to start any games I suppose? Obviously if you cherrypick and squint and omit what does not suit your argument, the Braves are young.
Also, get back to the point. Are the Cardinals getting younger or not? Your assertion in #4 ""The Cardinals are going younger? Really??""
So, you are saying that they are not going younger?
Facts:
Jim Edmonds: Born June 27, 1970
So Taguchi: Born July 2, 1969
Juan Encarnacion: Born March 8, 1976
Rick Ankiel: Born July 19, 1979
Brian Barton: Born: April 25, 1982
Colby Rasmus: Born: August 11, 1986
Post 5;
I was referencing the position players since the post spent most of its time with the field regulars. And as for the bevy of young pitchers on the Cardinals you have Wainwright and MAYBE Reyes if the team ever decides to let him pitch.
It is clear that you are either willfully ignoring that which was clearly stated or simply incapable of understanding my point.
Please take a step back, pause, reassess and then tell me how the Cardinals can be described as a young team. As the AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE CONCEDES they cannot.
Which was my point. The Cardinals are not a young team in BASEBALL terms.
If you come back stressing the comparitive I will then understand that you are indeed not interested in a legitimate discussion but instead yammering about word choice.
if Ryan Ludwick is the Card's second best player by the end of the season. that would probably mean a utter disastor. the guys 29 and he hasn't even really establsihed himself in the majors. that's just not a good sign at all. his minor league # looks decnt untill you realize a lot of it were either
a. put up in big hitters league
b. old for the league and/or repeated leagues
c. questionable plaet dicipline at best.
I think at least they did the right thing by not going out and trading for Miguel Tejada or something like that though. they need a overhaul. trading prospect now is suicide.
Um, "Arva," the whole point of my preview is that the sort of analysis you are advocating does not apply to this year's Cardinals. The Cards, right now, consist of ("Harvey," I know you were exaggerating for effect; this is not meant as a shot at you) Pujols, Glaus, Molina, Wainwright, Isringhausen and a large collection of large gambles. I can do the sort of stuff you're talking about - MLEs, BROCK2s, later stuff that isn't by Bill James - but I just don't think it helps here. A lot of the posters to this thread keep coming back to trying to get a hard prediction for this year's Cardinals. I don't think you can even try to do that. They have too many pitchers-with-good-resumes on the DL, and too many players-who-are-young-in-Major-League-experience starting in their lineup. I did what I could with depth charts. I listed nine starting pitcher candidates, which is a lot, all six outfield candidates plus Juan Gonzalez, and the backups, such as they are, at first base and second. I mentioned that the Cards do not have a serious backup third baseman right now. I will now add that they also do not have a serious shortstop backup, pending the injury recovery of Brendan Ryan. They are apparently going to open the season with Ross(sp?) Washington, who is a career minor leaguer not even listed on the roster in today's (Sunday, March 30) Cards preview in the Post-Dispatch. That leaves catcher. The backup catcher is Jason LaRue. What the Cards say about LaRue is that they picked him up because his arm is better than the previous couple of backups' were. Unless you want me to list the entire bullpen, that's the depth chart. I'll be interested to read your preview, but if it's all just hard-stats predictions, I'm probably not going to take it seriously. I just don't think the current Cardinal roster justifies that.
In many ways, "Harvey" has it right when he writes, "Maybe the 2008 Cardinals are the 1978 Brewers. Maybe Rick Ankiel is Gorman Thomas. Maybe Schumaker is Ben Ogilvie. Maybe Rasmus is their Paul Molitor." And maybe they are not. If none of the gambles pays off, they're going to be bad. If all of them pay off, they're going to be good. Harvey doesn't think much of the odds, so he projects the team low. And so does everyone else who simply assumes that the Cards will get nothing out of Carpenter, Mulder, and Clement, and that all the outfielders will fail except maybe Rasmus. But that's not rational. What is rational is to say that there are so many gambles that a hard prediction is impossible. That's what I said.
Oh, yeah, "Harvey." Even I think that Colby Rasmus has more home run power than Paul Molitor. That doesn't mean that I think he's a better leadoff man. And once again thanks for trying to be civil when you are embattled. It's really helped this thread. I probably would not still post here if you were just flaming. Thanks again for that. But you had to bring up Junior Spivey. Now, there's a sad memory of an Epic Fail.
Hey, try contributing some time. These things don't write themselves.
Again, why are you ignoring Smoltz, Glavine and Hudson?
Harvey is obviously talking about position players and has been all along. If you really want to start comparing starters that's fine, but complaining that Harvey is not talking about what you think he should be talking about isn't a valid rebuttal of his points. But since you're so damned intent on lining up the Braves and Cards starters, I'll bite. Here they are (according to Sportsline's depth charts), by age:
<ol>
Glavine,Tom 42
Smoltz,John 41
Hampton,Mike 35
Carpenter,Chris 33
Clement,Matt 33
Looper,Braden 33
Hudson,Tim 32
Carlyle,Buddy 30
Mulder,Mark 30
Wellemeyer,Todd 29
Pineiro,Joel 29
Bennett,Jeff 28
James,Chuck 26
Wainwright,Adam 26
Reyes,Anthony 26
Thompson,Brad 26
Lerew,Anthony 25
Reyes,Jo-Jo 23
Jurrjens,Jair 22
</ol>
Do you see anything notably advantageous to the Cards there? Obviously Smoltz and Glavine are nearing the end of their runs, and I pretty much write Hampton, Carpenter, Clement and Looper off as equal parts. I guess Cards fans might want to pretend Carpenter is more like Tim Hudson than those other three, but I'm not sure. I'd take Hudson as my #1 over Wainwright this year and probably the next five years too. I'd take James, Jurrjens and Jo-Jo Reyes over any of the other options here, this year and going forward. The only guy I'd say might get into that group would be Anthony Reyes.
From a strict age perspective the Braves rotation isn't younger on average because the 40+ guys jack the mean up, but if you're looking at mode the Braves are younger and better at the bottom end of the rotation. I mean, unless you're seeing something in Brad Thompson I'm not...
To Jim, if you have a team preview that needs writing that no one wants to do, or no one has volunteered for, I'll gladly take on the burden. Just send me an e-mail.
Let's start off with a few facts about this years Cardinals team. The first fact is that the Hall of Fame core that push the team to a championship in 2006 was running out of steam at that point. This is obvious by the decline in record for a Cardinals team whose roster remained largely unchanged from the year before. Second fact is that the Cards are unlikely to miss the two parts of HOF core they got rid of. Rolen has been very bad or very injured for the Cards the past three years. Edmonds had more than lost a few steps. Both will be unlikely to play 120 games next year, and either of them missing 80 games would be no surprise. Add to the fact that they are unlikely to be productive in the time they play, even the Cards, as thin as they are, will not miss them. Fact three, the Cards aren't winning this division.
This looks like a solid 75 win team as put together currently, with an 85 win upside and a 65 win downside. The upside depends entirely on Colby Rasmus and Rick Ankiel hitting out of their minds all season, and Anthony Reyes and Joel Pineiro turning into #2/#3 starters. There's probably about a 1% chance of that happening. The downside is watching Pujols and Wainwright go under the knife. I'm about 50/50 on Pujols's chances, and uncertain about Wainwright. I almost think the team should tell Pujols to have surgery just to get a higher draft pick next year, NBA style.
Catcher: Yadier Molina (.275 .340 .368;.245 .307 .349),
Molina is the best defensive catcher in the game of baseball who put up the best batting line of his career last year, good for a towering 85 OPS+. I actually think the gains are for real. Its similar to his minor league lines, and his contact rate improved last year as well. Molina is still one of the streakiest hitters in the league, and prone to very long slumps and scorching hot streaks. I'll take the over on his ZiPs, but I doubt he's going to surpass his 2007 line. His glove is good enough to play anywhere, and it never slumps. LaRue's really, really bad, but if Molina goes down for any length of time, the Cards top catching prospect will likely come up. Bryan D. Anderson, who projects almost exactly the same as Molina (.258 .307 .347). Anderson is well thought of as a prospect, but he's struggled some lately,watching his modest power completely evaporate in AA.
1st Base: Albert Pujols (.327 .429 .568;.325 .432 .593)
Best player in the game of baseball. Worst year of his career is worth a 153 OPS+. There's a lot of risk here, however, as Pujols is going under the knife at some point for Tommy John surgery. If he goes down for the season, Cards go from a likely 75 win team to a 70 win team, and watch last place rush up a and greet them. I'm not sure he will though, as Pujols seems the type to delay surgery as long as possible. As the Cards aren't winning the division this year, tanking and grabbing the top pick in the draft might not be a horrible idea.
2nd Base: Adam Kennedy(.219 .282 .290;.251 .310 .332)
Mmmmm, toasty! Kennedy is now two years removed from his last effective year with the bat. After a myriad of injuries, he seems unlikely to be golden with the glove. The Cards weakest position, with Aaron Miles likely to suck up at bats if Kennedy hits really poorly. However, Miles could hit .280 and be no better than Kennedy's ZiPs projection above. No real help on the farm, either.
Shortstop: Cesar Izturis(.258 .302 .315;.252. .296 .318)
Brendan Ryan(.289 .347 .406;.265 .315 .351)
This signing makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for the Cards. Brendan Ryan projects better (despite his crappy minor league numbers) and has a good defensive reputation as well. New GM John Mozeliak made a mistake here, but its a relatively minor one, but I expect Izturis to last the season due to TLR's preference for veterans and due to the fact the Ryan won't be that much better. This is going to be a large drop off from David Eckstein, who put up a .309 .356 .382 line. Even though King Cesar's defense will be superior, I don't think it will make up for runs lost with the bat.
3rd Base: Troy Glaus (.262 .366 .473;.256. .362 .456)
Finally an upgrade! Rolen hit .265 .331 .398 last year while playing 112 games. Glaus hit .262 .366 .473 while playing 115. Rolen has been more injured and less effective than Glaus overall the past three years (2006 looks like the fluke for Rolen, not the surrounding years). I'd be very surprised if Rolen was much better defensively than Glaus at this point due to his shredded shoulder and back problems. Rolen is toast, Glaus is still an effective hitter. I do not expect Glaus to play more than a 120 games. I do expect him to play more games than Rolen, and Rolen is already on the DL.
Right Field: Ryan Ludwick (.267 .339 .479;.262 .330 ..476)
Skip Schumaker (.333 .358 .458; .272 .314 .370)
Why two players? I expect Ludwick to be the primary starter by the end of April. Ludwick is a AAAA player who was a pretty good hitter in the minors. He's a bit below average offensively, a bit above average defensively. So long as he makes near the minimum, he's a good player. I like his ZiPs projections, and expect him to hit around those marks. Shumaker's not a starter, but will make a nice little defensive oriented 4th outfielder, and profiles to make decent contact in a bench role.
Center Field: Rick Ankiel (.285 .328 .535;.241 .285 .458)
Colby Rasmus (.245 .329 .419)
Rick Ankiel's a good story, but not a championship caliber player. His ZiPs projection looks about right. If he hits .280, he'll be one of the greatest on contact hitters in history. And he has to hit .280 to be worth playing. He does have legit power, and given 500 ABs he could legitimately pop 30-40 HRs. He'd likely have one of the worst 40 HR season in history. Rasmus is the future. I expect him to hit for average, get on base, and hit for 20-25 homer pop, while playing sterling defense, maybe as soon as this year. He destroyed AA, last year, and getting a few ABs at AAA won't hurt him any. He's the future sooner rather than later, however.
Left Field: Chris Duncan (.259 .354 .480;.262 .346 .472)
Brian Barton (.269 .355 .401)
Chris Duncan is a very underrated player here on BBTF. No, he's not a superstar, but an above average offensive LF at league minimum is a very valuable player to have. I expect him to hit above his ZiPs. Barton's a Rule5 draft pick and a pure hitter. I expect him to struggle more than that ZiPs projection, but I'll take it.
On offense, the Cards are a throughly average team. They have above average players at 1st, 3rd, and LF. They have average players at C, RF, and likely CF (over the long haul, I expect Ankiel to be below average and replaced by Rasmus, even things out). They are below average at SS, 2nd, enough to cancel out Glaus and Pujols. Defensively, they're good around the IF, and good in CF and RF, below average in LF. Position player wise, they're not bad off. Given an average pitching staff, they'd be contenders in the Central. And there's the problem.
SP: Joel Pineiro (4.33, 97, 26/60;5.28, 150, 53/80)
SP: Braden Looper (4.94, 175, 51/87;<i>4.84, 160, 54/83)
SP: Kyle Lohse ( 4.62, 192, 57/122;4.78, 177, 54/109)
SP: Anthony Reyes (6.04, 107.3, 43/74, 4.65, 149, 45/106)
One starter on this staff projects as an above average pitcher. Wainwright is the ace, and is a true #2 starter. He'll exceed that ZiPs projection, unless the ghosts of former young phenoms of Dave Duncan's past come back to haunt him. By that, I'm speaking of Alan Benes, Donovan Osborne, and Matt Morris. The 1997 team featured this young troika of pitchers, all of whom were good prospects. By years end, all of them had gone down with injury. Only Morris went on to have a good career, and he was not the same pitcher after his injury. Wainwright's increased workload from last season does not bode well, but until there is some sign of injury, he's as good a bet for 180+ IP at a 3.50 ERA as anybody.
Jo-El, Superman's less heralded cousin, is the #2. And for the Cardinals last year, he pitched like one. Putting up a 3.96 ERA in 63.7 with a 40/12 K/BB ratio. Its a tiny sample size, and Joel hasn't been an above average pitcher since 2003. However, Joel is only 29, and this is the kind of pitcher Duncan has a reputation for fixing. I don't like his chances, but its not beyond the realm of possiblity that he turns into Woody Williams to give the Cards a good #3 type pitcher. I expect an ERA closer to 5 than 4, but I wouldn't be shocked if his ERA is around 4. I'd give it a fifty/fifty chance of an 110 ERA+
Braden Looper is the closer turned starter. He's a solid #5 on a good staff, capable of soaking up innings with a 90 ERA+. He's the number 3 on the Cards staff, however, and he's just not a very good pitcher for the role. His conversion to starting is also unique due to the fact that Looper had been a reliever throughout his career. It will be interesting to see how he holds up.
Kyle Lohse is an excellent signing by Mozeliak, though a dumbfounding choice for Lohse. Duncan might work his magic on him and turn him into a #2, though Lohse does not have a reputation for coach-ability (he's an ass). Lohse will munch innings and keep the team in ball games, but I expect him, much like Looper, to lose a lot of 4-3 ballgames and get many no decisions.
Anthony Reyes has dominated AAA the past two years and gotten pounded at the MLB level. Scouts like him, stat guys like him, his mom likes him. Unfortunately, so do major league hitters. In an ideal world, he would have turned into a #3 starter by now. I think its going to take a change of scenery or pitching coach for Reyes to thrive. I'm just not sure he's worth much in trade at this point.
At some point and time, one of the oft injured trio of Mulder, Carpenter, and Clement will make an appearance. I don't expect much from any of them. Mulder's been a bust from day one, due to the performance of Dan Haren for Oakland and injuries to the lefty. Even if he comes back, I don't expect much. Clement was throwing around 87 in spring training and still doesn't have any command. He's a bust. The Cards season ended on opening day last year, despite the team hanging around till August. If Carpenter's healthy, they stay with the Cubs/Brewers all season, and they'd be a contender this season as well. Unfortunately, he blew out his arm. If he comes back this season, I don't expect too much from him. Hopefully he's 100% by next year.
RP: Kelvin Jimenez
RP: Brad Thompson
RP: Randy Flores
RP: Russ Springer
RP: Tyler Johnson
RP: Ryan Franklin
CL: Jason Isringhausen
Neither great nor bad. Isringhausen is still a good, non-elite closer, and could fetch something in trade. Franklin had a nice year last year, but the chances of him repeating seem slim, and now has a two year contract. Johnson's a left hander reliver, as is Flores, that is all. Springer's healthy for the moment, and is the definition of a journeyman. Kelvin Jimenez is organizational filler. Brad Thompson is the guy with upside. A former starter who has health problems, he could be the best reliever of the bunch by the end of the year. Or his arm could fall off.
Management: Tony LaRussa, Dave Duncan, John Mozieliak
Tony LaRussa is arguably one of the greatest managers of all time. He's won a lot of games, got surprising performances out of a lot of people, and is constantly looking for an edge. He's also a prickly SOB, creating teams with a bunker mentality that creates an us against them mentatlity. Its great for the team, but grates on the nerves. A lot of people strongly dislike LaRussa (I do), but its hard to argue with his success, but its also hard to see him fitting in with this team. I think LaRussa's a great manager, but he's not getting these Cards into the off season this year. Walt Jocketty leaves things in the hands of John Mozieliak, who's made some Jocketty like moves since taking over (namely Lohse, Clement, and Izturis). It makes sense, as Mozieliak's worked under Jocketty for a while now. Jocketty, however, was one of the best GMs in baseball, and the team will feel his loss as the season goes on. Duncan has the greatest challenge of his career at this point, expected to weave straw (Pineiro, Lohse, Looper, Mulder, Clement) into gold. If Duncan succeeds at doing that, the Cards have a chance at contention. I'm just not sure there's much to work with in all that chaff.
75 wins and lots of complaining about umpires, other teams attacking TLR's guys awaits this team. For the first time since the 21st rolled around, the Cardinals are not contenders for the Central Division title, and are not expected to be. They'll be just another team, fighting it out with the 'Stos, Pirates, and possible Reds for a shot at a higher draft pick. The problem for the Cards is that there's nothing coming up from the farm system at their weak spots (2nd, SS, SP) and it may take some time before they fight back to contention.
Yeah, me too. I'm so used to thinking "oh look, the quaint little midwestern teams are playing baseball now too!" that I forget there's serious bad blood out there on the plains. Flyover states. What cute little people!
My initial response was to Harvey's post in #4. His post in #4 was that the Cardinals are not going younger. "The Cardinals are going younger? Really??" That was what I was rebutting.
And I'm not claiming that the Cardinals have a younger or better pitching staff than the Braves. This is what I'm saying: the Braves are not a good example of a young team, due primarily to Smoltz, Glavine, Hudson. You agree?
Which is why I think the notion that a team can play .500 and compete in this division is misguided. The Cubs have the look of a 90 win plus team. The Brewers aren't far behind. The Reds have a bevy of young AND proven young players with more on the way.
The Cardinals have the best player in baseball and the best manager in the division. That counts for a lot. But right now this team has the look of the last days of the Barry Bonds Giants. One or two things go wrong and it's a steep dive into the abyss.
No, actually. I go back to my point about mean vs. median (I originally misspoke and said "mode.") If you're using the mean -- what is normally called the mathamatical average, yes, the Braves look old, or at least "not young." But once your break out the cross tabs and start looking at the median they get younger very quickly. Smoltz and Glavine, 41 and 42 respectively, are very old. Mike Hampton, at 35, is getting up there (insert joke about his arm being three years younger than the rest of him here.) But then you get to Hudson who at 32 is not old by any real measure. That's sort of middle age/prime for starting pitchers. And after that you get very young, very quickly. Chuck James is the next oldest true starter at 26. Jo-Jo Reyes (who is back in AAA since Hampton hasn't fallen apart yet) and Jair Jurrjens are 23 and 22 respectively.
None of this takes into account the position players who are very young themselves.
So, no, I wouldn't say the Braves are "not young." They are young, but they're also quite dependent on the performance of two very old guys this year too. They do need to find someone to replace Smoltz, which is probably their first priority (assuming Tex isn't resignable) next winter. They get Mike Hampton and Tom Glavine's contracts back into the kitty. Unfortunately it looks like all of the great pitchers are locked up (Peavy, Santana, Zambrano), but I wouldn't be shocked to seem them go look for a nice 30 year old compliment to Tim Hudson. Maybe Javy Vazquez or Ben Sheets? Not sure who... I'm getting way ahead of myself anyway. Tonight is Opening Day for God's sake.
The Cardinals have the best player in baseball..
The Cards do not have Chase Utley, Carlos Beltran or David Wright.
I wouldn't call the late era Cards "terrible." They were boring, but then again most things from the flat land in the middle without beaches are. And honestly I'd forgotten Houston was in the the division.
What I find interesting is that aside from post 4 where I meant to write young and wrote the comparitive I have listed other items as further examples of my point and never a comment about those posts.
Instead, just an incessant noise about a single word. It's that type of stuff that makes BBTF somewhat tedious.
The Cardinals are not a young team. The author of the article agrees. Others agree.
THAT was my point. It remains my point. And until someone can show me otherwise I consider all other comments superfluous.
Brock believes that Rasmus' minor-league power will not translate to the major leagues. Granted, I'm not sure Brock has given a good explanation for why he believes this, but he does. If he is wrong in this, obviously the Cards should leave Rasmus alone.
If Rasmus' power is not going to translate to the big leagues, then what do the Cards do? They could have him bulk up to maintain that power. However, this will cost him speed and quite possibly move him off CF. Once off CF, even if he retains 25-30 HR power, he may not produce at a particularly high level for a corner OF. Also, losing speed, he is likely to lose some BA and extra bases.
So maybe the best thing for the Cards to do is to have him focus on hitting for average, being a "line drive" hitter not an uppercut HR hitter. Then he can maintain his speed which may or may not be a huge boost to his offense but is a major part of his defensive value. This may also help reduce the chances of the nasty downside -- the speedy OF who keeps hitting everything in the air but doesn't have enough power.
In short, 280/360/430 with good defense in CF is as or more valuable than 260/350/500 with average defense in LF -- especially if you think his chances of putting up that 240 ISO are pretty slim.
And yes, OBP and power tend to correlate -- more specifically, walks and power tend to correlate. But that 150 ISO cutoff that was set in an earlier post is a pretty low cutoff for ISO. That's fairly typical 2B/CF power and is about 15 HR a year. I think that's roughly the sort of power that Brock is expecting out of Rasmus.
If his power evaporates then he'll need to compensate. All players have to find some equilibrium between their current skills and approach. I just think it has NOTHING to do with where he's slotted in the lineup in his 21 or 22 year old year or whatever.
Well, I decided to look it up. The worst Cardinals team in my lifetime was the '78 team that won 69 games. I would say the odds of them winning less than 69 games are not non-ridiculous.
THERE'S 40 MILLION ON THE DL, AND AT LEAST $25 OF THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN SPENT/ACQUIRED
THE MULDER TRADE IS NOTHING SHORT OF CATASTROPHIC...
THE TEAM IS LITERALLY DEVOID OF INTERESTING POSITION PLAYERS OUTSIDE OF ALBERT, RASUMUS, AND MOLINA (AND YADDY AINT' NO GREAT SHAKES)...
THAT SAID, 1996-2006 WAS A LOT OF FUN, AND A LOT OF FRANCHISES WOULD KILL TO HAVE THE SUCCESS STL HAS HAD...
On what planet is Kyle Lohse a "solid two"? He's a below-average pitcher for his career as a whole, and his career high OPS+ (106) was 3 years ago, and is basically average. Sorry, dude, but in the current insane free agent pitching market, "solid twos" don't wait until March to get signed, and then at bargain-basement prices.
And Todd Wellemeyer is, to put it mildly, uncertain to even be good enough to be a "typical" no. 5 starter.
That argument looks decnt untill you realize
a. He made it to the majors at 23 and had a respectable half season starting for the Indians at 24.
b. He struggled in his callup because he had a ####### broken hip.
c. The seasons that earned him a journeyman reputation were ones where he was trying to overcome serious injuries.
d. When he has two functioning legs, he has always shown enough power to compensate for his poor walk rate.
From what I hear, he did bulk up a bit over this offseason. Hard to say how accurate that is though, as he lost about 15 pounds from his usual playing weight with a severe sinus infection at midseason. Could be he just put that weight back on.
I'll concede cardsfanboy's point that people are probably going overboard in trashing the Cardinals, but the flipside is that I think he's taking an absurdly rose-colored look at the Cardinal rotation. Wellemeyer and Thompson are borderling #5s, Lohse is a #4 at best; as for the backup plans, Clement and Mulder are toast, Carpenter (even assuming he comes back as his former ace self) isn't pitching until midseason at the earliest, and who knows what they'll get from Reyes. To be honest, I'd give Reyes a fair chance to be the Cardinals' third best starter this year.
I agree that Wellemeyer should be thought of as a number five (even though he did pitch very well for us last year)and I'm more optimistic about Lohse than I probably should be.
Optimistic/Realistic I have the Cardinals winning 85 games and finishing in third in the division.
Optimistic/fan vision I have us doing about 92 wins and winning the division
I think of any projection that has the Cardinals below 80 wins as exceedingly pessimistic.
So do you see Milwaukee winning more or fewer games than St. Louis?
More, I keep flip flopping between the Cubs or Brewers winning the division, currently I'm leaning to the Cubs but a good argument could probably flip me again.
Interesting. Because between Yost, guys playing new positions, the unsettled staff and Fielder/Braun taking a step back I don't see them wininng more than 85.
Number two on your list is why I think they've got a fair chance. Their defense should be going from a major weakness to at least average, especially after Kendall gets himself injured.
I've got an article in the bowels of primate studies on this. An average #3 has an ERA+ of around 96 (because relievers have better ERAs). An average #4 is around 89. And an average #5 is about 78. Going by ERA+, Lohse is the prototypical #3, but I can see an argument that he should be lower because of his reliance on his defense.
The above is also a bit harsh on Wellemyer and Thompson.
Their problem with their rotation is they only have one guy likely to be above average and multiple guys who have some question marks by them. Even the most prepared teams have some problems with pitchers and the Cards' thinnness with really dependable starters could cause a mess in the back of their rotation.
There are almost no regular pitchers that are #5,
This is true. Then again, it's incredibly slim that the Cards will have 5 pitchers keep a regular turn in the rotation throughout the course of the year. Actually, that's true of every single team in baseball.
It's gonna be a really good race, though. Personally, I'm pulling for the Brewers.
Want another reason to pull for them? I just started some research for a column I did last year on ticket price add-on costs. Last year the Brew Crew were the only club without a "total convenience fee." This year, they still don't have one and actually lowered their processing fee. To date, they're the only team I've seen lower it. And this is after their first winning season in eons.
They do a better job treating their fans with respect than any team in baseball.
Oh, for the editing option on this page . . . .
You are either joking or completely misinformed.
Career OPS+
Pujols 167
Wright 138
Utley 126
Beltran 116
And no, the defense doesn't make up any difference in OPS+, because Pujols is considered to be a significant plus defender at 1B.
And thinking that Beltran is a better player than Pujols is absolute nonsense.
Beltran's bestseason was an OPS+ of 150.
Pujols'worst season was a OPS+ of 151.
And Pujols is younger than Utley or Beltran, so it's not likely they are going to be catching him anytime soon.
Dave
I was referring to your article(not by name) when I made my comments about Lohse(and yes he may rely on defense, but in the end I care about the final results) And of course I was also referring to comments you made when I said that there are almost no regular number 5's. As you basically wrote, if a pitcher is a true number five teams are constantly trying to improve that position, which is why I think that people are underrating the team, the Cardinals have a bunch of pitchers that they can throw against the wall and see what works out in the end.