Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Notes in a Minor Key > Discussion
Notes in a Minor Key
— 

Monday, July 17, 2006

Breaking Down the First Round

The following reviews are based on the MLB Scouting Bureau video provided by MLB.com. Please note that most of these reviews are almost entirely based on the players’ swing or pitching mechanics. I will finish by providing my draft order based on these reviews. I will provide a letter grade to each pick which will follow somewhat of a bell curve-like grading system. Please also note that the players are graded only within the 1st round. IOW, I will assign the grades compared to the others in the “same class.”

#1 - Kansas City Royals - P Luke Hochevar

Excellent arm action. Clean, yet explosive mechanics. I like guys that REALLY go after it. In other words, I like pitchers who try to throw the crap out of the ball. However, if you can throw this “easy” and still get 96-97, that’s a good thing. His mechanics are more linear than I like pitchers to be, but I think he’s a good bet to keep his velocity throughout his career. Good pick. 

Grade: A-

Hochevar currently remains unsigned.

#2 - Colorado Rockies - P Greg Reynolds

Good arm action. Throws to a good, firm front side which helps reduce shoulder injury risk. Really extends out front well at release. High arm slot. Would like to see him increase his tempo a bit. A #2 overall pick he is not, but a good, solid pick. I’m higher on him now than when I initially saw his video. I’d definitely try to draft him, but just not this high.

Grade: B+

Reynolds received a $3.25 million signing bonus from the Rockies and has a 5.63 ERA in 2 starts with single-A Modesto.

#3 - Tampa Bay Devil Rays - 3B Evan Longoria

His video doesn’t really show his swing very well. That said, you can tell this guy is a “baseball player” by his movements on the field and at bat. Quick swing, good balance. You can tell he’s got a clue about plate discipline by the way he takes pitches. Don’t think he’ll be a 40 HR-type of guy, but he doesn’t have to hit for that much power to be successful. I hate to throw out the term “polished” too much, mostly because this is the first time I’ve seen him on video. However, again, he looks like he has a clue.

Grade: A-

Longoria signed quickly after the draft and is hitting 345/433/691 for the Visalia Oaks since his promotion from Hudson Valley.

#4 - Pittsburgh Pirates - P Brad Lincoln

Outstanding arm action, best yet. Good intent (tries to throw hard) with a very quick torso rotation. Great tempo. Notice how he speeds his body up from the top of his knee lift to foot plant. This increase in momentum helps speed up his hips/torso. If you need an example of a guy who does this really well, watch Roy Oswalt. Uses his lower body REALLY well.  Stays closed well until he absolutely explodes late. Outstanding pick at #4. Good chance he’ll be better than Reynolds and Hochevar.

Grade: A

Lincoln pitched in 2 games in the Gulf Coast League and is expected to start for Hickory on Wednesday.

#5 - Seattle Mariners - P Brandon Morrow

Morrow has great tempo and unbelievable separation between his upper and lower body. Great intent to throw. He really goes after it. Excellent A+ arm action to complement how well he uses his body. Doesn’t throw to as firm a front side as I’d like him to, so his injury risk is higher. Best pick, best player so far in the draft. Of mild concern is how his glove shoots back after release. Clemens does this, and it’s turned out well for him I think. Hope for no screaming comebackers. An athlete who pitches is the best description I can come up with.

Grade: A+

Morrow signed immediately after the draft and was assigned to the Arizona Instructional League.

#6 - Detroit Tigers - P Andrew Miller

Stiff, stiff, stiff. OK, so it looks like he has good movement on his pitches, and he’s tall and lefthanded. Takes the ball out of the glove too early for my liking.  Leads with his front shoulder, which I don’t like. Just glides into foot plant. Just doesn’t use his body well to throw. No oomph with his body/legs. Again, he’s tall and a lefty, but I don’t understand the mega-hype. I’ve watched his video a number of times and I still don’t get it. I just don’t see him keeping his velocity throughout his career, as his shoulder just takes a beating. I hope I’m wrong because I’d love to have a Bonderman/Verlander/Zumaya/Miller/Robertson rotation myself in a few years.

Grade: B

Miller is currently unsigned.

#7 - Los Angeles Dodgers - P Clayton Kershaw

Ok, he has a very minimal arm action hitch, but nothing that would concern me. Actually, it might help him hide the ball better and be later with his arm, which I like. I would tell him to just let the follow through happen. It seems like his coaches are telling to stay down through it. I’d tell him to throw the crap out of the ball instead and just fall wherever your body tells you to fall. My first impression, he reminds me of John Rocker in how he hunches a bit when reaching with his front leg and with his short arm action, which I certainly like. Could increase his tempo a bit to make him even more explosive. I know high school pitchers are riskier, but I’d take him over Miller in a heartbeat.

Grade: B+

Kershaw has pitched in 3 Gulf Coast League games, striking out 12 batters in 7 innings.

#8 - Cincinnati Reds - CF Drew Stubbs

Crap swing. I reviewed his video more closely and discovered that his hands and his torso disconnect severely. In other words, his torso/hips/legs don’t really help him much in getting the bat moving towards the ball. When so much of the review is based on swing mechanics, it is easy to overlook the other parts of his game. OK, he looks like he’s a good athlete, so there’s hope. That said, I don’t like this pick here, not this high.

Grade: C-

Stubbs is hitting 247/374/370 in 92 plate appearances for the Billings Mustangs.

#9 - Baltimore Orioles - 3B William Rowell

His video doesn’t really show much. It looks like he has a powerful swing but it’s really hard to tell at full speed if he connects his trunk to his arms.  Can’t tell.

Grade: Incomplete

Rowell received a $2.1 million signing bonus from the Orioles and was assigned to Bluefield.

#10 - San Francisco Giants - P Tim Lincecum

Really goes after it. Check out how his front leg, just before landing, seems to step over an imaginary object and then land? This helps the hips turn faster. He couples it with a late hand break and a very quick arm. At 10, he’s a steal. THIS is how you use your body to throw. Straight over the top release point in which he is forced to yank his head out of the way. Might scare some, doesn’t scare me.....certainly not when you’re this efficient with your body. This is my #1 pick, hands down.

Grade: A+

Lincecum is expected to make his pro debut this week for Salem-Keizer.

#11 - Arizona Diamondbacks - P Maxwell Scherzer

I keep watching his video, but just don’t see it befitting a #11 overall pick. The positives: He gets out front to a firm front side. His mechanics are smooth and polished and repeatable. Pretty good arm action. Negatives: Doesn’t go after it. Looks like he starts his torso rotation early. Kinda “pushes” the ball a bit. Risky pick in my opinion. Another guy that I doubt will keep his velocity. No thanks, not at 11.

Grade: C

Scherzer remains unsigned.

#12 - Texas Rangers - P Kasey Kiker

I’m not enamored with his arm action. However, I like how he uses his body to throw the ball. Powerful leg drive into an aggressive hip/torso turn. I hope they let him “let it fly” because it is not his arm action that gives him his plus velocity. His mechanics remind me of Mike Stanton, who I consider a little stiff (especially his arm action). I’m a little skeptical of this pick this high, but he looks like an athlete who pitches, and that is a plus.

Grade: B-

Kiker was assigned to Spokane rather than an Instructional League team and has had a rough start, allowing 16 runs in 12 innings with 11 strikeouts, but 10 walks.

#13 - Chicago Cubs - LF Tyler Colvin

MLB says that there is no power yet, but there is room for growth. Well, until he learns to use his body to bring his arms into the ball and not the other way around, he won’t develop power. You can see him “throw the hands at the ball.” It is not a good thing. Very few that hit for consistent power literally “throw the hands at the ball.” There is hope because he at least looks like a good athlete.

Grade: C-

Colvin signed quickly and is hitting 246/329/369 for the Boise Hawks.

#14 - Toronto Blue Jays - RF Travis Snider

Ok swing, although he lunges a bit. Decent turn through the ball, but not enough there to really impress me. I’d have concerns about drafting a 230 lb. 18-year old unless he can mash like there’s no tomorrow. See Fielder, Prince. At #14, I don’t know if I’d draft him here. Later in the 1st round, sure.

Grade: C+

Assigned to the Pulaski Blue Jays, Snider is hitting 290/364/464.

#15 - Washington Nationals - OF Christopher Marrero

Handsy swing. Again, he disconnects his hands from his body. Turn your body quickly and your hands will follow. Thrust your hands out at the ball, and you don’t give your body a chance to contribute to bat speed. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not completely terrible, but there’s work to be done. Luckily, he’s 6’3” 210 lbs., so there’s hope.

Grade: C-

Marrero received a $1.625 million signing bonus from the Nationals and is 9-for-22 with 3 doubles for the Gulf Coast League Nats.

#16 - Milwaukee Brewers - P Jeremy Jeffress

I just don’t see how he generates the supposed “triple-digit” velocity. He doesn’t have the “intent” or the mechanics to do so. I would need to see more video of him, because on this video he’s not close to 100 mph. I heard 100 mph, so I wouldn’t expect a game-speed fastball at 88 at any point in his video, like I saw here. He at least has the potential to develop more velocity I guess.

Grade: D

Jeffress has struck out 8 batters in 7 1/3 innings in the Arizona League.

#17 - San Diego Padres - 3B Matt Antonelli

Defensively, he looks like he’s smooth. His swing, on the other hands, leaves a lot to be desired. He lunges and “goes and gets” the ball instead of letting the ball travel to him. He almost literally pecks at the ball. It is easier to control the bat if you don’t really swing it that hard, so maybe that’s why I hear he put up decent numbers. Maybe he’ll be Craig Counsell with a little more power. I don’t see his upside being high enough to be picked at 17. No thanks, not here.

Grade: C-

Antonelli is hitting 295/435/364 for the Eugene Emeralds with a 22/11 BB/K ratio.

#18 - Philadelphia Phillies - P Kyle Drabek

Outstanding, short arm action. Short stride. Decent torso rotation. His velocity is more a result of his excellent arm action than anything else. Good tempo, although he can probably be quicker with such awesome arm mechanics. Looks like he has an awesome curveball, and so did his dad. Another good thing is that throws to a firm front side although his glove goes behind him after he throws. A good bet to continue to be one of those lucky bastards who generates “easy” velocity.

Grade: B+

Drabek had a disappointing professional debut in the Gulf Coast League, allowing 3 runs on 4 hits and a walk in his first and only inning.

#19 - Florida Marlins - P Brett Sinkbeil

Slow tempo, which I don’t like. However, without much lower body help, he flings it low to mid 90’s. Another example of excellent arm action. He really rotates his upper body well even though his lower body progresses slowly to foot plant. I’d be worried about injury with someone who is so passive with his lower body. By the way, I like him much more than Scherzer, his teammate. Then again, his tempo would scare me off, unless he’s willing to change.

Grade: B-

Sinkbeil has a 1.23 ERA and 22 strikeouts in 22 innings for Greensboro.

#20 - Minnesota Twins - RF Chris Parmelee

Like his swing quite a bit. He exhibits many of the qualities of a high-level swing. He has a smooth, powerful hack. See how he has that upper body lean back? It almost looks like an uppercut, but it’s not. Yeah, a good candidate to develop power, unless the Twins mess him up by insisting he inside out everything to left..Good turn thru the ball. Let this kid hit and pull the ball. Good pick here.

Grade: B+

Parmalee was assigned to the Twins’ Gulf Coast League team and is hitting 250/328/558.

#21 - New York Yankees - P Ian Kennedy

Another guy with outstanding arm action. Throws to a firm front side, which again helps ward off shoulder troubles. A guy in the Prior/Reyes mold although he has better tempo than Prior. A good pick here. He looks very polished. If he throws an easy 88-92, I can live with him not going “after it” as much I’d like.

Grade: B

Kennedy signed with the Yankees last Friday for $2.25 million.

#22 - Washington Nationals - P Colton Willems

Don’t like his arm action at all. With how his body works, he still generates good torque to create velocity. I think he’s a huge, risky project. His arm action would scare me off as it is an injury risk. One positive: Good curveball.

Grade: C-

Williams pitched 2 scoreless innings in his GCL debut last week.

#23 - Houston Astros - C Maxwell Sapp

At first glance, I liked his swing. It looks powerful and under control at the same time. After closer inspection, his swing is not as good as I originally thought. At first glance, it looks like he turns well though the ball. However, he doesn’t really turn. More than anything, he spins around his back leg.  That said, I don’t think he’s far off from having a good, powerful swing. He doesn’t throw his hands at the ball which is a definite plus. Behind the plate, he has a long arm action, which is not good if you’re looking to wear catcher’s gear. I don’t think he sticks behind the plate. I’m generally tougher on
overweight kids, as they have a higher risk of eating themselves out of baseball.

Grade: B-

Sapp is hitting 208/276/283 for Tri-City.

#24 - Atlanta Braves - OF John Johnson

When I first reviewed him I thought he was a reach in the 1st round. After watching the video more closely, I think he’s a reach in the 10th round. Watching it today, his swing is just not good. He has a complete disconnect between his hands and body. Watching it with my swing guru buddy/cousin today, he expressed sheer disgust as we watched Johnson’s swing frame-by-frame. Most Sunday hackers slice because they come over the top of the ball by yanking the hands from the outside in, instead of turning your body quickly with the hands following until ready to unleash hell. My guess is Johnson, if he is a golfer, either has a severe slice or a pull-hook. I guess he has quick enough hands and is a good athlete, but, uh, not the right pick.

Grade: F

#25 - Los Angeles Angels - C Hyun Choi Conger

I called him a top 10 guy the first time I saw the video. He might be more along the lines of top 6 or 7. Reviewed the video once again, and I think he’s an unbelievable steal at 25. His swing, right now from the right side, is a big leaguer’s swing. As a matter of opinion, he has the best, most powerful, just plain violent swing of anyone in the first round. His lefty swing isn’t as good, but is a high-level swing as well. GREAT, GREAT pick. A switch-hitting catcher with power from both sides? Sign me up. Oh, and he looks like he has decent movements behind the plate, with a shorter, truer catcher release. If he sticks at catcher, his value is, yeah, great. If he doesn’t, don’t worry, this guy will mash at first. How does Sapp go before this guy, I’ll never figure it out.

Grade: A

Conger was assigned to the Arizona League and is hitting 319/382/522 with 4 triples.

#26 - Los Angeles Dodgers - P Avery Morris

No video.

Grade: Incomplete

#27 - Boston Red Sox - CF Jason Place

Much in the mold of Johnson, the 24th pick, Place has a crappy, crappy swing. I don’t know where other scouts see his power potential. Again a severely disconnecting, handsy swing. He may end up being Gabe Kapler, who exhibits much of the same crappy swing qualities Place shows. Is he literally trying to bounce the ball off the plate? He may end up being one of those guys who produces empty batting averages. Because he’s decently fast, he’ll hit a few bloop doubles and such. No thanks, not at 27.

Grade: D

Place is hitting 265/362/306 in the GCL.

#28 - Boston Red Sox - P Daniel Bard

An absolute steal at 28. Good arm action, although a bit on the long side. Easy velocity and good tempo and separation between upper and lower body. I’d like to see a side shot to check out stride length, glove arm movement and “intent.” Give me this guy over Miller, his teammate, any day.

Grade: A-

Bard is currently unsigned and is reportedly seeking a major league deal.

#29 - Chicago White Sox - P Kyle McCulloch

Wow, he’s straight over the top. Easy, but yet he explodes well at release. Good tempo. Arm action OK, not great. I’d like it to be more “elbowy.” Good, safe pick at 29.

Grade: B-

Has a 3.18 ERA and 11 strikeouts in 11 1/3 innings for Great Falls.  Has allowed 11 unearned runs.

#30 - St. Louis Cardinals - P Adam Ottavino

I don’t see the “aggressiveness” that he has on the mound on his video.  Decent arm action, but doesn’t use his body well enough for my liking. As a safe, polished pick, then he’s Ok. I don’t see massive upside with this pick, but I can se him dominate the lower levels before he plateaus at AA.

Grade: C+

Ottavino’s had a terrific start in the New York-Penn League with a 1.46 ERA and 22 strikeouts in 24 2/3 innings for State College.

#31 - Los Angeles Dodgers - SS Preston Mattingly and #32 - Baltimore Orioles - P Pedro Beato

No video available.

Grade: Incomplete.

#33 - San Francisco Giants - SS Emmanuel Burriss

You know, if you’re gonna be a leadoff hitter with not much power who basically just tries to hit singles, then this is the swing to have. Doesn’t load up to try to hit the ball a long way but gets himself into good hitting position and has a good swing plane. Has a short, somewhat handsy swing, but he’ll get into a few and hit some doubles here and there. I don’t think there’s much upside with this pick, but it’s safe.

Grade: C+

Burriss signed immediately after the draft and has hit 260/342/302 for Salem-Keizer.

#34 - Arizona Diamondbacks - P Brooks Brown

Good pick here. Good arm action, good intent to throw. Does the “stepover” thing which helps his hips turn more violently. Throws to a firm front side.  There’s not much not to like with him really. Not super uber-impressed, but this is a good pick at 34.

Grade: B+

Brown received a $1 million signing bonus and was assigned to Yakima.

#35 - San Diego Padres - RF Kyler Burke

on the mound, OK. I see why they like him more as an OF. He has good arm action but doesn’t explode through the ball with his mechanics. His swing looks decent enough, a tad handsy but not bad at all. Good risk pick here.

Grade: B

Burke has hit 239/329/338 in the AZL.

#36 - Florida Marlins - 3B Chris Coghlan

Another guy with a “batting average” swing. He doesn’t really load up to try to hit bombs, although he could afford to go after it because he’s got a short enough swing for it. I’d totally pick him over Burriss because Coghlan has a better chance at developing some lift in his swing.

Grade: B-

Coghlan and the Marlins are currently finalizing a deal.  Once he’s signed, the Marlins will have signed their top 19 draft picks.

#37 - Philadelphia Phillies - SS Adrian Cardenas

Looks fluid on the field. His swing has some pop behind it. He looks like he stays behind the ball well and actually tries to hit the ball hard. A better pick than his teammate Marrero. Out of the middle infielders here in the supplemental 1st, I’d take him over the others.

Grade: B

Cardenas is coming around after a tough start for the Gulf Coast Phillies, hitting 250/321/397.

#38 - Atlanta Braves - P Cory Rasmus

Their mistake on round 1 is made up for with Rasmus. Very much like this kid. Clean, yet explosive mechanics. Good solid arm action.  Good intent, good tempo. Shortish arm action which I like. Very aggressive but under control…

Grade: B+

Rasmus has an 8.59 ERA with 5 walks in 7 1/3 innings for the GCL Braves.

#39 - Cleveland Indians - P David Huff

I wonder if he lists Tom Glavine as one of his idols, because that is exactly who he looks like. Doesn’t really go after it, but has simple, repeatable mechanics. Safe pick, but will obviously have to command the strike zone to be successful. A “stuff” pitcher he is not.

Grade: B-

Huff is currently unsigned.

#40 - Boston Red Sox - P Kristofer Johnson

He’s a tall lefty who throws hard, but I just don’t like how he delivers the ball. His arm action is not that good with a hitch that I can’t get over. Just not smooth enough for me. Shoulder problems on the way. Will not keep his stuff throughout his career.

Grade: C+

Johnson has struck out 11 in 9 2/3 innings for Lowell.

#41 - New York Yankees - P Joba Chamberlain

This Sidney Ponson wannabe doesn’t have Ponson’s powerful mechanics (not this year, I’m talking years past). I just don’t like him nearly enough for all the buzz he gets. I like athletes, and if he turns out like Ponson, he will weigh 280 in few years. No thank you.

Grade: C

Chamberlain remains unsigned.

#42 - St. Louis Cardinals - P Christopher Perez

Quick, powerful, compact arm action. I love this pick at 42. Good intent to throw. Gets out in front well enough. Like how late he breaks his hands. 

Grade: B+

Perez has a 1.59 ERA in 6 relief appearances for the Quad Cities Swing.

With that out of the way, this is my draft order. Again, it is based only on the guys picked in the 1st round. It follows the rankings for the most part,

but, in some cases, I pick upside more than safety and vice versa.

1) Lincecum
2) Morrow
3) Conger
4) Lincoln
5) Longoria
6) Bard
7) Hochevar
8) Kershaw
9) Reynolds
10) Parmelee
11) Drabek
12) Brown
13) Miller
14) Perez
15) Kiker
16) Kennedy
17) Sinkbeil
18) Sapp
19) McCulloch
20) Sinkbeil
21) Burke
22) Clay
23) Cardenas
24) Snyder
25) Huff
26) Scherzer
27) Stubbs
28) Colvin
29) Willems
30) K Johnson
31) Jeffress
32) Ottavino
33) Antonelli
34) Coghlan
35) Chamberlain
36) Place
37) J. Johnson
38) Burriss

Carlos Gomez Posted: July 17, 2006 at 11:20 AM | 103 comment(s)
  Related News: Minor LeaguesProspect ReportsScouting

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >
   1. Mike Emeigh Posted: July 17, 2006 at 10:39 AM (#2102206)
Sinkbeil has a 1.23 ERA and 22 strikeouts in 22 innings for Greensboro.


Minor nit: Sinkbeil's stats are actually his numbers at Jamestown (NY-P); he was recently promoted to Greensboro and will be making his full-season debut tonight, I believe.

-- MWE
   2. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 17, 2006 at 10:59 AM (#2102217)
By the way, let me mention this before anything else.

Thanks to Jeff Albert (aka Marcus Giles 2) as he is the true swing guru behind it all. We will work to give you video comparisons where we'll show you what terms like "disconnecting" mean. Why are we so down on Johnson and Place, what do I mean by Lincecum's step over? Why is conger's swing so good? Stay tuned....
   3. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 17, 2006 at 11:01 AM (#2102218)
Oh , and I almost forgot. Thanks to Mike and Dan, for cleaning it up for me.....sorry fellas
   4. VG Posted: July 17, 2006 at 11:02 AM (#2102220)
Carlos, first, that was a very interesting read. Second, can you explain a little more about why you like pitchers "who try to throw the crap out of the ball," who have "great intent," as you described Brendan Morrow?
   5. Dan Szymborski Posted: July 17, 2006 at 11:19 AM (#2102228)
Minor nit: Sinkbeil's stats are actually his numbers at Jamestown (NY-P); he was recently promoted to Greensboro and will be making his full-season debut tonight, I believe.


Oops, that was my fault.
   6. Barnaby Jones Posted: July 17, 2006 at 11:24 AM (#2102233)
Per Cody Johnson, he supposedly has amazing power and he is only 17. He's got plenty of time to develop and for somebody in the Braves organization to fix that ugly thing he calls a swing.
   7. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 17, 2006 at 11:29 AM (#2102234)
We all tend to like guys who have "easy" velocity, of course. We think that if it looks easy, then it must be that there is less stress on the arm and body. However, there is nothing "easy" about throwing a baseball hard, really hard.

Generally speaking, there aren't many pitchers who generate plus velocity that aren't very aggressive with their lower body/torso and then translate all that energy into an aggressive throw. I've always liked what Ted Williams had to say on that issue in his book (grunt a little bit to throw hard). A pitcher who is aggressive with his body needs to do less work with his arm in order to accelerate it to where it needs to be in order to produce a 95+ mph fastball. IOW, a guy who has "great intent" is being efficient enough with his body that it allows his arm to go as fast as it needs to. It starts with tempo, with building up momentum with your body on the way to foot plant. Compare Sinkbeil to Morrow. Even though Morrow throws a little harder, I'd say Sinkebeil has greater bad stress on the arm because his body is less involved (it helps less) than Morrow's.

Also, I find it more aesthetically pleasing when a guy can coordinate his body as quick as it needs to be in order to throw a ball that hard. It's a mark of athleticism. I'll take an athlete over a non-athlete any day.
   8. VG Posted: July 17, 2006 at 11:36 AM (#2102237)
Thanks, CBW. I understand the concept better now.
   9. Insert clever/punny handle here (oi!) Posted: July 17, 2006 at 11:56 AM (#2102254)
Nicely done, Carlos. This is based on the stuff you did around the time of the draft, right?
   10. Boomer Posted: July 17, 2006 at 12:04 PM (#2102265)
What does "arm action" mean? What's the difference between excellent, good, average, and bad arm action?
   11. Biscuit_pants Posted: July 17, 2006 at 12:32 PM (#2102288)
A pitcher who is aggressive with his body needs to do less work with his arm in order to accelerate it to where it needs to be in order to produce a 95+ mph fastball.
To add to CBW's assessment a little bit I also think that better/efficient body movement also helps in the deceleration of the arm after a pitch is thrown which is also hard on an arm over the coarse of a year.
   12. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 17, 2006 at 12:42 PM (#2102298)
Nicely done, Carlos. This is based on the stuff you did around the time of the draft, right?

Thanks, and to answer your question....yes it is.


What does "arm action" mean? What's the difference between excellent, good, average, and bad arm action?

Arm action is simply the path your arm takes from breaking the hands from the glove to release. I'll try to show video examples of good and bad arm action in due time.
   13. He's Bought a Bat Like Prince Fielder Posted: July 17, 2006 at 12:47 PM (#2102300)
Another scout, Jim Walton, had a really nice description on MLB.com some time ago.

Proper arm action: From the start of separation or taking the throwing hand out of the glove with the thumb down while in the pivot position,

- the uninterrupted range of motion of hand, elbow and shoulder extending in a backward arc behind the body

- starting forward in an elliptical motion with a smooth or fluid flow with no impeding flop, hook (hooking the ball behind the back before unleashing throw), wrap (twisting the wrist over before throwing) or jerk

- transmitting energy and force through hand and arm with full extension to the ball while in the physical act of throwing
   14. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 17, 2006 at 12:56 PM (#2102302)
a Sinkbeil vs. Morrow comparison tempo-wise. I have video of them, just need to compress and edit it. However, here's Morrow at release vs. where Sinkbeil is, synchroznized from the apex of their knee lifts.


major differences
   15. Boomer Posted: July 17, 2006 at 01:07 PM (#2102308)
Thanks this is great stuff!
   16. _ Posted: July 17, 2006 at 01:27 PM (#2102326)
I appreciate that you've only got the MLB videos to go on, but I think it's been pretty well-documented that Jeffress does throw 95-100. He was reported to have thrown several pitches at triple digits in a recent AZL game. Maybe in the one video they had he was taking it easy. He pitched in something like only 6 games his last season in high school, for some reason, so they might not have had a lot of video. That said, it is a high-risk pick for all the obvious reasons; and if you weren't impressed with his mechanics at 88 mph, maybe that does indicate trouble.
   17. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 17, 2006 at 01:32 PM (#2102330)
   18. Kyle S Posted: July 17, 2006 at 01:45 PM (#2102345)
Carlos, did you watch any of the futures game? Id love to hear what you think of the mechanics of Homer Bailey and Philip Hughes. Hughes' arm didn't seem to have the fluidity and whip that Bailey's did; is that bad, good, or irrelevant?
   19. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 17, 2006 at 02:30 PM (#2102399)
this is CBW. Didn't get a chance to watch it, but if you have a link to to Hughes and/or Bailey, I can check it out.
   20. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 17, 2006 at 02:39 PM (#2102407)
HSF, again this is CBW.

The review was based on the videos, and it was a minute video at that. I just don't see where 100 mph happens, not on this video. His mechanics are fluid, yes, but explosive enough? I don't see it. Maybe he wasn't going after it THAT day. I have issues with the reports scouts sometimes come up with. If you go pick-by-pick, even MLB.com overstates velocities for most of these pitchers. If a scout tells me a guy reaches triple digits, it stands to reason that I'd get to see 96 here, 98 there. I wouldn't expect to see an 88 anywhere close.
   21. Mike Emeigh Posted: July 17, 2006 at 03:01 PM (#2102428)
Didn't get a chance to watch it, but if you have a link to to Hughes and/or Bailey, I can check it out.


If you have MLB.tv, the Futures Game video is in the list of games for July 9 (WFT vs UFT, 4 PM).

-- MWE
   22. Kyle S Posted: July 17, 2006 at 03:01 PM (#2102429)
There are a bunch of home videos of Bailey on youtube. Check em out. Not sure how much of the mechanics you can see, the angles differ a lot.

Phil Hughes during the Futures game

Come to think of it, I can get some video of these guys the same way this (second) guy did - just take a video of my TV. Anyone miss the game and care to see?
   23. _ Posted: July 17, 2006 at 04:19 PM (#2102493)
I wouldn't expect to see an 88 anywhere close.

Maybe the 88s were hanging sliders!

I read some more on Jeffress that said he tends to lose velocity as the game wears on. That could be a strength/stamina issue which is likely correctable. Still, I do think he's a project with a long way to go.
   24. Kyle C welcomes back our OBP Savior Posted: July 17, 2006 at 04:30 PM (#2102502)
Thanks for this Carlos! I was wondering if you could give me your opinion of Daisuke Matsuzaka as well?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAwmW2S-xX4&eurl;
   25. Kyle S Posted: July 17, 2006 at 04:47 PM (#2102509)
wow, he's got a nice curveball. was topping out at 92 mph or thereabouts in those clips, i remember him being faster on the WBC gun but that one might have been juiced. is there video of the gyroball?
   26. MM1f Posted: July 17, 2006 at 04:52 PM (#2102513)
"is there video of the gyroball?"

Supposedly the gyroball is even more mythical than Felix Hernandez's slider.
   27. He's Bought a Bat Like Prince Fielder Posted: July 17, 2006 at 05:16 PM (#2102519)
If you say gyroball three times fast, Will Carroll breaks through the nearest wall yelling "oh yeah!"
   28. chris p Posted: July 17, 2006 at 05:21 PM (#2102525)
isn't the gyroball is just how he throws his fastball? nothing crazy like will carroll claims.

when i play catch with my brother he says the gyroball style fastball has a little bit of tailing action compared to a regular fastball, but i don't know for sure if i'm doing it right.
   29. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 17, 2006 at 05:49 PM (#2102544)
Re: Hughes and Bailey

Whoa, first time watching either of these two. That's pretty good. I like Hughes more, although there isn't much to not like in either. I'd have to go slow-mo on them to detect other differences, but these guy are both excellent. Fluid, compact and powerful..outstanding
   30. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 17, 2006 at 06:03 PM (#2102562)
Re: Matsuzaka

You know, I'm not a big fan of real slow deliveries common to far east pitchers. However, see how Matsuzaka speeds up from knee lift to release. That is good momentum/tempo. On that video he's just blowing it bast everyone, must be nice....
   31. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 17, 2006 at 09:25 PM (#2102935)
good tempo vs not-so-good tempo with 2 guys from above, Sinkbeil and Morrow.

Morrow vs Sinkbeil

These are somewhat synchronized to release. As you can see by these, although Sinkbeil has started his drive before Morrow, Morrow catches up to him and it fact beats him by a frame.
When I sync these to knee lift, Morrow beats Sinkbeil by at least 3-4 frames. Sinkbeil is tough to tell because he pauses at the top.

Another few notes....
Look how much more ground Morrow covers as well. Morrow probably throws a hard 95+, whereas Sinkbeil (since he's a short strider) probably throws a soft 93-94. IOW, he just basically releases the ball farther away from home plate than Morrow does. THIS is HUGE and something I'd like to work on to quantify in the future.

Frame 21-22---separation explained. Notice how the hips/legs/midsection assist in quick torso rotation. I'm talking Morrow here. You know, now that I've seen Sinkbeil more up close, I'm not so sure I like him as much anymore....more later....
   32. Norcan Posted: July 17, 2006 at 11:24 PM (#2103027)
CBW, I don't know if you already know this but the 2004 and 2005 scouting videos are still available. There you can watch Hughes, Bailey and the videos are all much longer.
   33. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: July 18, 2006 at 06:36 AM (#2103127)
The #1 guy is the Giants pick.
The #2 guy is from Cal.

This makes me happy.
   34. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 18, 2006 at 09:23 AM (#2103233)
Norcan---thanks for the tip. I didn't know they were available.



The #1 guy is the Giants pick.
The #2 guy is from Cal.

This makes me happy.


The more I watch their videos, the more I'm certain these are my top two guys, btw.
   35. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 18, 2006 at 11:19 AM (#2103381)
Conger - switch hitting catcher with power and a swing like David Wright (minus a small adjustment) ...

how did he last that long? Nice pick for the Angels to pick up a homer who can hit homers
   36. CFBF: Now With the Dan Werr Seal of Approval Posted: July 18, 2006 at 11:55 AM (#2103439)
"how did he last that long? Nice pick for the Angels to pick up a homer who can hit homers"

What annoys me is that the Braves had been linked to Conger for weeks before the draft, only to pass him up in favor of Johnson.

Now, I wasn't really in a position to criticize a particular choice of high school players, because what do I know about them? But it struck me as a strange decision then, and reading these reports hasn't helped me.
   37. Max Parkinson Posted: July 18, 2006 at 12:42 PM (#2103507)
CBW,

I hadn't paid that much attention to Morrow. Wow. Love that action. Does he remind you of a bigger Oswalt, or is it just me? He's really exploding through the delivery, a good kind of violence.
   38. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 18, 2006 at 12:49 PM (#2103518)
judging solely by the video comparison of their swings, I really have to say the Braves missed this one.

otherwise it is hard to say without seeing them play consistently. that's where the scouts come in. Atlanta does have McCann and Saltalamacchia (sp?) but never hurts to have a switch hitting catcher with power coming up. Don't mean to point out the Braves here - plenty of other teams passed on him too.

I have a side by side of their swings that I will fire out here in the near future.
   39. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 18, 2006 at 01:14 PM (#2103549)
CBW,

I hadn't paid that much attention to Morrow. Wow. Love that action. Does he remind you of a bigger Oswalt, or is it just me? He's really exploding through the delivery, a good kind of violence.


Doesn't really remind me of Oswalt. Oswalt is quicker, as in, he has a faster tempo. No matter, Morrow's got some powerful mechanics of his own. Check out his arm action as well. Very good.
I made sure I compared Sinkbeil and Morrow from the windup. I actually like Morrow more from the stretch, as he is quicker with his tempo from the stretch.



judging solely by the video comparison of their swings, I really have to say the Braves missed this one.

See this is where it gets tricky for MG2 and I. We have limited video resources on which to base our conclusions. In order to have some kind of baseline comparison, I chose the MLB.com Scouting Bureau videos. Just like MG2 suggests above, I think it bears repeating that these are based only on the MLB Video.
   40. HollaforHalladay Posted: July 18, 2006 at 11:15 PM (#2104296)
CBW and MG2, great stuff. I've long been a BTF shadow lurker and had to come out of hiding for this thread, as I find myself watching these kid's videos often and forming my own opinions.
One thing that really jumped out at me though ..
Compare Sinkbeil to Morrow. Even though Morrow throws a little harder, I'd say Sinkebeil has greater bad stress on the arm because his body is less involved (it helps less) than Morrow's.

Morrow grew up in a town near mine and has always thrown hard so needless to say I've heard plenty about him ... usually that news went along the lines of how much or little his arm was currently hurting, usually the latter. This guy's arm problems prevented him from throwing substantial innings his whole time at Cal until this year. I'm as big a fan of short, tight, clean arm actions as (through reading all of this) I'm SURE you are. Not to dismiss your process of evaluation, but look at Sinkbeil's numbers through college (and summer ball). I don't need to point out all of dudes in pro ball who, despite their 'immaculate mechanics', have been ruined by injury. What are your other theories on pitcher durability factors? Just wanna hear more of your stuff because I've enjoyed all this so much, so far.

MG2, your site and blog is killer. Keep up the good work.
   41. Robert S. Posted: July 18, 2006 at 11:33 PM (#2104321)
CBW, how "fixable" is Scherzer, in your opinion?
   42. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 19, 2006 at 03:28 AM (#2104416)
Holla--
first, I thank you for your comments. Second, I thank you for confirming my thoughts or Morrow, as in his injury risk. Let me explain. As much as I like how well Morrow "goes after it," he is VERY aggressive with his front shoulder as well. One of the Tom House teachings that I really look for is that "firm front side." If I had to choose the one thing that would scare me off on Morrow, that is definitely it, as it leads to greater shoulder injury risk. If you need to me explain "firm front" I can show ya an example of a good vs bad.

Re: Sinkbeil
You know, since I've put him under the microscope more, I'm really starting to not like him. I may have missed it a bit on his arm action. From the side shot of his mechanics, his slight pause would scare me a bit. Admittedly, I didn't do a frame-by-frame slow mo evaluation of all the players. For most of the evaluations, I watched the videos a few times at full speed, trying to pause them at appropriate moments. IOW, I may have missed it on Sinkbeil.


but look at Sinkbeil's numbers through college (and summer ball)
One thing I told myself before I did this was that I was going to try to not let numbers and hype influence my evaluations. I knew about a few of these players' numbers. I tried to keep that aspect of the equation out of it. However, as a big stathead, I would look at players' numbers as another really important aspect of their evaluations and then come up with my final draft board.



I don't need to point out all of dudes in pro ball who, despite their 'immaculate mechanics', have been ruined by injury. What are your other theories on pitcher durability factors?

Agreed. A lot of scouts/pitching coaches couldn't tell you what 'immaculate mechanics' look like anyways, so that may have something to do with it. Also, I'm more likely to like a guy who is agressive than one who isn't. Sometimes that carries with it a higher injury risk. However, when looking at the big picture, here's the thing. As a GM, what would I rather have? Do I want 10 years of average pitching or 6 years of max effectiveness? I'm in the latter category. Let me give you an example. Scott Kazmir. When I first saw video of him in high school, I was blown away by how well he used his body, his aggressiveness. I'm sure some were turned off by his higher injury risk. Next time I see video of him in a Mets uniform, I saw a slower, toned-down version of him. At that point, I blamed the Mets for trying to prolong his career by slowing him down. Now with the Rays, he seems to be getting back to High School Kazmir. It probably carries with it a higher injury risk, but I'd rather have that than what the Mets were seemingly turning him into.

I'm getting long-winded here, so I'll go into durability later. However, what other 'durability factors' did you want me to address? Are you talking pitch counts/mechanical issues/conditioning?
   43. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 19, 2006 at 04:14 AM (#2104423)
Firm front side, glove/elbows out front comparison.....

Morrow on the left, Kennedy on the right
   44. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 19, 2006 at 04:33 AM (#2104426)
CBW, how "fixable" is Scherzer, in your opinion?

Anyone is "fixable." Obviously the longer you've been doing something, the harder it is to undo the bad habits. Scherzer just needs to be more aggressive getting into footplant. However, he does one thing REALLY well at release, which I'll try to show with video and missed at first. I have to edit the video, so I'd need time. He does have the "intent to throw." It's just that his body isn't letting him throw as hard as he can.

A comparison of what I don't like about him....

Lincecum vs Scherzer

Both of these still shots are taken at 3 frames prior to release. LOOK at Lincecum's separation. Can you see how his midsection is about to bring the rest of his torso through?
Again, both of these are taken 3 frames prior to release. Look how much farther back Lincecum's arm is. Lincecum's arm is going to travel more distance in the same amount of time=better capacity for velocity.
   45. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 19, 2006 at 09:01 AM (#2104529)
re. the Lincecum vs Scherzer comp. pic.

Aside from the separation, that shot implies to me the Lincecum is using his entire upper torso much more effectivey to whip his arm forward

Think of a bullwhip where, in this case, the torso (spine) is the handle and the arm is the whip...Lincecum is more arched having more flex in the torso suggesting greater potential to snap his torso back forwards delivering his arm more forcefully to the plate. whether this is the case, I don't know (I don't have the full video on this computer) but the potential for greater velocity/efficiency is there based on this picture
   46. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 19, 2006 at 09:02 AM (#2104533)
re. the Lincecum vs Scherzer comp. pic.

Aside from the separation, that shot implies to me the Lincecum is using his entire upper torso much more effectivey to whip his arm forward

Think of a bullwhip where, in this case, the torso (spine) is the handle and the arm is the whip...Lincecum is more arched having more flex in the torso suggesting greater potential to snap his torso back forwards delivering his arm more forcefully to the plate. how Lincecum finishes this, I don't know (I don't have the full video on this computer) but the potential for greater velocity/efficiency is there based on this picture
   47. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 19, 2006 at 09:29 AM (#2104572)
You've certainly arrived when you get your first double post. Welcome to the club, MG2. I wish we had some hazing ritual for the newbies at BBTF.
   48. Mike Emeigh Posted: July 19, 2006 at 10:11 AM (#2104614)
I'm going to try to get to Greensboro to see Sinkbeil pitch. He started Monday, and should go again Saturday (when I can't go), then July 28 in Columbus, and August 3 at home against Savannah, when I probably can go.

-- MWE
   49. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 20, 2006 at 10:29 AM (#2104753)
is it technically a double post since they are slightly differt? Tried to hit the stop button so I could edit the post but first one snuck through on me. oh well
   50. AROM Posted: July 20, 2006 at 10:39 AM (#2104762)
Don't have much to say because I'm trying to grok all this.

Great post, CBW. I hope your rankings prove to be true, Angels getting the top position player at the end of the first round.
   51. ian Posted: July 20, 2006 at 11:33 AM (#2104800)
We all tend to like guys who have "easy" velocity, of course. We think that if it looks easy, then it must be that there is less stress on the arm and body. However, there is nothing "easy" about throwing a baseball hard, really hard.

Is it or isn't it better to have an easy motion, all other things being equal?

Generally speaking, there aren't many pitchers who generate plus velocity that aren't very aggressive with their lower body/torso and then translate all that energy into an aggressive throw. I've always liked what Ted Williams had to say on that issue in his book (grunt a little bit to throw hard). A pitcher who is aggressive with his body needs to do less work with his arm in order to accelerate it to where it needs to be in order to produce a 95+ mph fastball.

But are you comparing "non-aggressive" guys that throw 92 to aggressive guys that throw 96? Yeah, I guess I'll take the aggressive guy here too. But I'll take the easy thrower at X mph over the whiplash guy.
   52. PFJ Posted: July 20, 2006 at 09:44 PM (#2106112)
#24 - Atlanta Braves - OF John Johnson

When I first reviewed him I thought he was a reach in the 1st round. After watching the video more closely, I think he’s a reach in the 10th round. Watching it today, his swing is just not good. He has a complete disconnect between his hands and body. Watching it with my swing guru buddy/cousin today, he expressed sheer disgust as we watched Johnson’s swing frame-by-frame. Most Sunday hackers slice because they come over the top of the ball by yanking the hands from the outside in, instead of turning your body quickly with the hands following until ready to unleash hell. My guess is Johnson, if he is a golfer, either has a severe slice or a pull-hook. I guess he has quick enough hands and is a good athlete, but, uh, not the right pick.


We're talking about a Brave's prospect from the Southeast, there is no way he doesnt become a Hall of Famer, IMO

And can someone link me to these videos?
   53. Cannonball Titcomb Posted: July 20, 2006 at 11:40 PM (#2106213)
This is really interesting stuff, but I have this nagging thought: isn't the time between the draft and getting out of the minors almost all about changing mechanics to maximize talent? I wonder if it's almost more useful to flip all the grades on their heads because those who have achieved success despite poor mechanics can improve their performance through good coaching, video and experience, whereas those who are already technically great are getting about as much out of their talent as they can. Thoughts?
   54. HollaforHalladay Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:26 AM (#2106277)
there is no way he doesnt become a Hall of Famer, IMO

Wow. Just, wow. You don't have to be a "swing guru" to see this guy has a vicious hook-swing and therefore a massive hole on the inside half of the plate .. at least on what little is shown on the mlb.com video. Keep in mind this makes him susceptible to both inside corner heaters AND soft stuff away because he lacks extension on the outer half, all of which will get exposed at even the lowest levels of pro ball. However, you sound like you've seen more than any of us have to make an assumption like that. I'd also like to see extra video. The good news is he's left-handed and can get away with that, to a degree.

isn't the time between the draft and getting out of the minors almost all about changing mechanics

Significant mechanical (shoot, even smallest changes in most cases) adjustments can take YEARS to achieve. I read a study once that claimed it took 10,000 consective near-perfect repetitions to actually change muscle memory ... don't quote me on that because it was a long time ago ... but the prinicple remains, it would take super-athletic individual to undo years of mechanical sculpling. Most of these guys have been repeating the same mechanics since Little League. A coach of mine once showed a Scott Spezio HR at 11-year old and his go-ahead World Series bomb off of Felix Rodriguez and they were amazingly identical ... but thats only one example. Who knows what these organizational scouts are really looking for.
   55. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:32 AM (#2106279)
But are you comparing "non-aggressive" guys that throw 92 to aggressive guys that throw 96? Yeah, I guess I'll take the aggressive guy here too. But I'll take the easy thrower at X mph over the whiplash guy.

Is it or isn't it better to have an easy motion, all other things being equal?


Yes, but not in all cases would be my answer. I guess that's why I take Lincecum and Morrow over Hochevar.
To solidify your point, a guy who is throwing an "easy" X mph is being more efficient (in a way)with his mechanics than another guy who "goes after it."




We're talking about a Brave's prospect from the Southeast, there is no way he doesnt become a Hall of Famer, IMO

And can someone link me to these videos?


Funny you say this, b/c on a certain Braves board, I'm getting absolutely ripped for giving Johnson an F. Hey, someone in the class has to get it. He absolutely bombed the "swing test." And it bears mentioning this again.....Rankings based on this one video.....


Link to draft video


isn't the time between the draft and getting out of the minors almost all about changing mechanics to maximize talent? I wonder if it's almost more useful to flip all the grades on their heads because those who have achieved success despite poor mechanics can improve their performance through good coaching, video and experience, whereas those who are already technically great are getting about as much out of their talent as they can.

We were talking about this today. It is easier to work with a hitter who demonstrates certain swing qualities and then try to make that more efficient. In the case of Conger, we have a guy who already has a violent yet efficient super hack at age 18. His swing adjustments are easier to work on than reinventing the swing approach that say Jason Place or Johnson take. Major overhauls in swings/pitching mechanics take time... Years for some, and I'd say that the better athlete that you are, the easier it would be to make the necessary corrections.
A loose golf analogy between the differences in swings would be that Conger probably needs to make a slight grip adjustment. Johnson and Place need to relearn how to approach the ball, to turn their ugly slices into a powerful draw. That takes years sometimes.....

Not to mention that these major adjustments have to be field tested right away. You throw that on an 18 year-old kid, on top of the expectations. He hears something from his hitting coach, the roving hitting coordinator says this other thing, yadayada, you have one confused kid hacking away at the plate.
   56. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:38 AM (#2106281)
Holla snuck that one in while I wrote that post.

What I was unable to accurately convey regarding swing changes, well, Holla answered them for you. Excellent comments there...

To add to your post, I'd also like to see more video.
   57. HollaforHalladay Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:58 AM (#2106288)
I was with both of you guys up until your last couple posts.
Can you see how his midsection is about to bring the rest of his torso through?

Yes, I see that. I also see how freakisly he is twisting that midsection and pulling his head off of the path to home plate. It has always been my observation that those who "throw with their ear" or pull their head out of the way to clear for arm path, are more suspectible to injury just due to the fact that such a type of action is biomechanically inefficent. Not only, in my estimation, should that lead to injury, but also wildness... only of which the latter has been Lincecum's problem. I guess my best example would be Steve Avery who, for as long as his arm could take it, was as legit as they come, but soon thereafter that biomechanical speed bump finally bit him in the ass. Everything I can see leads me to believe that maybe Lincecum is as "freakish" as I called him early; i.e. the fact that he throws massive innings, massive pitch counts, doesn't even ice his arm, and that I've personally seen him winging loss-toss less than 24 hours after he started a game, forget the fact he's a 5'nothing" absolute WIRE. So maybe maybe you can throw everything I just typed out the window, but I would also say that I'm not the only one who sees that leaning towards first base as a red flag ... maybe it wasn't just the million dollar bonus demand but that throwing action that caused him to drop into the second day of the draft in 2005? Either way, he proved to be worth it this year.

Lincecum is using his entire upper torso much more effectivey to whip his arm forward ... Think of a bullwhip where

I realize everyone who has ever thrown a ball harder than 60 miles an hour uses their arm in such a way ... but "bullwhip" just sounds like soreness, microtears, and eventual major surgery to me.

Look at the horses throughout recent history history: Clemens, Ryan, Maddux come to mind for me... all with steady head or face positions that, to me, resemble Scherzer moreso than Lincecum. Haha, that is not to say Scherzer is anything close to any of those guys. And I'd certainly draft Licecum over big Max if I were a GM, but whatever. I'm not really sure how any of what I just wrote is relevant. I guess I just don't have anyone to talk pitching with at midnight on a Thursday.
   58. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 21, 2006 at 02:28 AM (#2106296)
sorry to have lost you...hehe... we certainly need the audience.

I can see why Lincecum is a "red flag" guy, as you say. However, I don't see Avery as a good comp. Avery's major issue, IMO, was that his arm action went from decent to "Mark Redman" horrible in a hurry. Avery must have REALLY bought into the "show the ball to second base" bullshyt that ruined so many pitchers.

A guy who I'm starting to like more and more is Ian Kennedy. The more I watch the video, slow it down, the more I'm intrigued. I'd bet you really like his delivery. If you haven't checked it already, go ahead and check it out.

I don't know if you would consider this guy a horse. He certainly hasn't done it for as many years as the guys you mentioned above. But he's a guy with a high arm slot who leans to the left to make room for his arm.
   59. HollaforHalladay Posted: July 21, 2006 at 03:14 AM (#2106304)
Avery's major issue, IMO, was that his arm action went from decent to "Mark Redman" horrible in a hurry.
Valid, I'll take that. He was just the first "ear to the ground" delivery I could think of.

And I do like Kennedy, alot. He gets SC-alum comparisons to Prior and Anthony Reyes, and while he's not anywhere close to either of those cats in physical stature.. his mechanics, as I see them -- and I've seen him live a couple of times --, are far and away better.

Oswalt is certainly a horse and, as good as he is, I hope he continues to be and keeps chuckin' for a long time. I don't know if you've heard the story of him being on the brink of quitting in like A-ball, though. As the story goes he had chronic shoulder pain until his pickup broke down and, upon popping the hood, he received an electrical shock that somehow fixed him for life. Its one of those Vin Scully/Don Sutton middle-inning questionable tall tales that you might hear once a year. If that's true, I would therefore classify him as a "freak" ... but even if not, he tilts his head, hes tiny, and he throws 97, he's still a freak. He defies my pitching logic, I hate guys like that. But I love watching him throw.
   60. HollaforHalladay Posted: July 21, 2006 at 03:20 AM (#2106306)
I did a little googling to try to confirm anything on Avery, all I can say is ouch. I don't think I want to look anymore.
   61. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 21, 2006 at 04:31 AM (#2106321)
I realize everyone who has ever thrown a ball harder than 60 miles an hour uses their arm in such a way ... but "bullwhip" just sounds like soreness, microtears, and eventual major surgery to me.


This is a tough analogy to explain in writing - alot of this "stuff" is, hence the video.

And actually Clemens was the demo used when this was explained to me.

I'll put this out there as a visual:

http://www.bullwhip.org/faq/forward.mov

See how there is a "loop" in the whip before it is snapped forward? Lincecum's got more "loop" (arched back) in his upper body and the short of that (not going to go into major details here) is it gives him the potential to use his upper body more efficiently/effectively. At least that is what it looks like in this picture

I would imagine this element is what has allowed him to become the Pac-10 career leader in K's with his "plus fastball", and also what helps him draw the Oswalt comparisons. There are not many RHP listed at 5'11" 170# that are bringing it 97 mph

And while we are on the subject, B-Wagner is the other little guy who does this quite well (especially the finish)
   62. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 21, 2006 at 08:12 AM (#2106371)
ok this is NOT a double post...

I messed up the link above

This is the link to the visual:

Whip

my apologies, I swear I've used a computer before. Although, the one I am on now at work is killing me - I type and the words don't show up for about 10 seconds. unbelievable. Being awake at 4:30 doesn't help either
   63. JC in DC Posted: July 21, 2006 at 08:29 AM (#2106382)
This stuff is fascinating. Thanks gentlemen. And do please continue. Particularly with the raving about the Yankees draft pick!
   64. Mike Emeigh Posted: July 21, 2006 at 08:45 AM (#2106401)
#24 - Atlanta Braves - OF John Johnson


This guy actually goes by "Cody". He's played eight games in the GCL, .308/.357/.423 with a double, triple, two walks, and 6 Ks in 28 PA. Everyone I have spoken to thought he was a reach and that he'd have been around a couple of rounds later.

-- MWE
   65. Mike Emeigh Posted: July 21, 2006 at 09:00 AM (#2106410)
Some updates:

Reynolds has made three starts for Modesto, with two good ones (5 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 BB, 2 K against Bakersfield; 4 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 3 BB, 3 K against Visalia) sandwiching a poor one (3 IP, 6 H, 5 ER, 1 BB, 6 K against Visalia). Visalia leads the Cal League in runs scored; Bakersfield is in the middle of the pack.

Lincoln got hammered in his first A-ball start, 7 ER in 4 2/3 IP with 7 H, five walks and 2 Ks. Sounds to me like he was overthrowing (not uncommon for the first time out).

Kiker has been struggling with his command at Spokane. He's pitched just 15 innings in seven games (six starts) and has walked 11 while fanning 14. He probably should be in the AZL.

Sinkbeil lasted six innings in his first A-ball start, and it was acceptable - 6 IP, 8 H, 0 BB, 3 K, 2 R.

Colton Willems threw three innings in his second GCL start, allowing a run. Only 2 Ks in 5 IP so far, though.

-- MWE
   66. Elvis Posted: July 21, 2006 at 10:00 AM (#2106470)
The two runs Sinkbeil gave up came on solo HRs. The first one (which came on the second pitch of the game) could have been caught, but the other one was crushed. I had him with 55 strikes and 26 balls. He kept his velocity throughout, consistently throwing 91 or above according to the ballpark radar. He topped out at 94. He had 11 groundball outs, 3 strikeouts, 3 infield pop-ups and 1 flyball out.
   67. Cannonball Titcomb Posted: July 21, 2006 at 03:35 PM (#2106794)
Thanks for the responses guys - I'll give form more informed thought than I have in the past. Do you have links/suggestions for videos that show how some players have changed their mechanics over time?
   68. PFJ Posted: July 21, 2006 at 04:55 PM (#2106836)
Wow. Just, wow. You don't have to be a "swing guru" to see this guy has a vicious hook-swing and therefore a massive hole on the inside half of the plate .. at least on what little is shown on the mlb.com video. Keep in mind this makes him susceptible to both inside corner heaters AND soft stuff away because he lacks extension on the outer half, all of which will get exposed at even the lowest levels of pro ball. However, you sound like you've seen more than any of us have to make an assumption like that. I'd also like to see extra video. The good news is he's left-handed and can get away with that, to a degree.


I forgot the <sarcasm> <sarcasm>
You honestly think I'd gurantee any 17 year old for the HOF?
   69. Robert S. Posted: July 21, 2006 at 05:10 PM (#2106843)
Thanks for the Scherzer comments, CBW.
   70. HollaforHalladay Posted: July 21, 2006 at 05:57 PM (#2106870)
I was looking at Lincecum a little more today while doing nothing and I'd like to take back some of what I've previously said about him. While there's no doubt his head tilts and moves "off the line" to home plate, his body is amazingly well grounded. By that I mean, his center of gravity -- as he moves towards home plate and his hips rotate -- never faulters DESPITE that head being off center. Accomplishing that is pretty amazing in my opinion ... stand up in your office or living room and fake an imaginary throw with your left ear touching your left shoulder. Can you maintain any center of gravity? Can you even remain standing? Cheers to Timmy Lincecum.
   71. HollaforHalladay Posted: July 21, 2006 at 05:59 PM (#2106871)
homer -
Sorry, I don't think I was the only one you fooled. I've heard some pretty insane assumptions from Braves fans in the past, worded pretty similarly and randomly as your comment. My bad, though.
   72. HollaforHalladay Posted: July 21, 2006 at 06:10 PM (#2106879)
Do you have links/suggestions for videos that show how some players have changed their mechanics over time?

As far as I know there's just not much decent film of big league swings or pitching delieveries online. Espically from from consistant angels. I'm sure there are plenty of primates out there with personal collections of old games on tapes, personally video'd stuff, etc ... but putting stuff like that on the net takes alot of time and effort, even if you had the hardware and software to actually do it.

CBW or MG2? You guys got anything?
   73. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 21, 2006 at 09:54 PM (#2107161)
My source is myself. Started doing it a few years ago while I was playing in college and have continued as I continue to work with players of all levels. It takes time and effort and sometimes luck to get the angles to match. The other thing is that I want to know what kind of video (frame rates, etc.) I've got instead of trying to figure out how someone else handled the clip. Even if I happen to mess something up, I'll take on the resonsibility and know how the video was handled and hopefully how to fix it.
   74. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 22, 2006 at 12:34 AM (#2107338)
This stuff is fascinating. Thanks gentlemen. And do please continue. Particularly with the raving about the Yankees draft pick!

Hey no problem. If your mechanics look like Kennedy's, you're OK with me....



Kennedy and Bard at certain times during their deliveries

Check out arm action, especially Kennedy. Short, compact, elbowy, with the right elbow going towards first base.

At heel plant (2nd pic in sequences)... look at their flex positions, compare to Scherzer, for example.

At release, glove arms out front, especially Kennedy (Tom House would be proud). However, you can start seeing where Bard gets his extra oomph. He has that extra "extension" with his throwing arm and shoulder where he finishes his throw more violently than Kennedy. If you watch the frames in slow-mo it becomes more evident. MG2 explains that Billy Wagner is the ultimate example of this. Bard is a better example than Kennedy at this. Scherzer also finishes well, with this extra oomph at the end.

Oh and thanks for the stat updates on these guys, Mike and Elvis. Oh and Holla, no more Avery pics, yuck....LOL
   75. Cannonball Titcomb Posted: July 22, 2006 at 10:24 AM (#2107474)
Thanks again for your contributions to my enjoyment of the game! I appreciate your observations.
   76. Rough Carrigan Posted: July 23, 2006 at 03:44 PM (#2108764)
Thanks for the comment about Gabe Kapler in the review of Place. I'd never quite put my finger on why I so hated his swing. It drives me nuts that a guy that strong doesn't make better use of his strength. Another one is Varitek. God!!! Sometimes it looks like he's trying to find the dance school footprints in the batter's box and repeat his mantra about the process to himself as he swings. "Hands back, Stride forward, turn hips . . ." I'm a Sox fan and I've probably seen thousands of Varitek swings. The next natural looking one will be the first.
   77. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 23, 2006 at 08:38 PM (#2109083)
I saved a clip of Kapler's swing and all the files of the other hitters got scared and moved into another part of my hard drive

It's not pretty, but it got him to the big leagues. Who says you can't muscle the baseball?
   78. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 23, 2006 at 10:08 PM (#2109143)
MG2, I think it's about time you unveiled the beauty of Gabe Kapler's swing. Really, I told him today that he has the megaclip of all that is wrong. It is a pitch of one of the worst pitchers in terms of arm action, Mark Redman vs the truly horrible swing of Kapler. One for the ages....

This one is cool too....I'll try to find the link


I just love how his bat goes down to around knee height on his follow through as he hits a Wimbledon-worthy slice into the monster seats....
   79. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 23, 2006 at 10:11 PM (#2109145)
here's the link to Kapler's bomb, it didn't work in the link thingy above, so here's the full link...



void(playMedia2({w_id:'502477',w:'2006/open/tp/archive06/062306_phibos_kapler_hr_tp_350.wmv',pid: 'mlb_tp',gid: '2006/06/23/phimlb-bosmlb-1',mid: '200606231520360',cid: 'mlb',fid: 'mlb_tp350',v:'2'}))
   80. HollaforHalladay Posted: July 23, 2006 at 11:49 PM (#2109189)
I watched a BP in Oakland one time that was the truest example of how regardless of how pumped up you are, how hard you try, and how hard you swing you cant hit if you hook around the ball and swing down. Kapler was up there spinning holes into the ground, hitting shimps behind 1st and rollovers towards 3rd ... walk out of the bubble red-faced and drenched in sweat and go back to the screen and whack away on a "Ken Griffey" Tee (those 2 bars that decend at like a 45 degree angle to a tee). Meanwhile Juan Gone and Carl Everett were chuckin it up, stepping under the hood and taking half-assed, yet beautiful hacks at a nice upward, inside the ball angle and just hitting missles off of the gate in center. It was hilarious.

P.S. that URL thing you posted isn't coming anywhere close to working.
   81. Marcus Giles 2 Posted: July 24, 2006 at 06:48 AM (#2109333)
posting the Redman-Kapler clip could qualify as cruel and unusual punishment

hopefully a bad swing isn't taken too much as a negative, because think of it this way, the worse of a swing you have, the more skilled/athletic you have to be to make up for it

so lets just say Kapler is quite a skilled athlete

CBW -
you can't call me a fatty, call me out for double posting, and then drop a "link" like that
   82. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 24, 2006 at 07:07 AM (#2109339)
I must've eaten a healthy dose of Cheesy Poofs before that post...I'll try to link it some other way.
   83. The Polish Sausage Racer Posted: July 25, 2006 at 05:30 PM (#2111855)
Mmmm....Cheesy Poofs.
   84. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: July 27, 2006 at 07:34 AM (#2114428)
My #1 pick finally made his debut....


Lincecum 1.0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0.00

He must've had a K with a wild pitch, b/c he ended up facing 4 batters.
   85. AlouGoodbye Posted: August 05, 2006 at 12:05 PM (#2128455)
He must've had a K with a wild pitch, b/c he ended up facing 4 batters.
That's exactly what happened. He then pitched a second game for Salem-Keizer, and went 3 innings, giving up 1 hit (and no walks) striking out 7.

He's now been promoted to the San Jose Giants, in high A. Due to make his first start at 5pm today. Interesting to see how things go.
   86. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: August 22, 2006 at 09:25 AM (#2151785)
#24 - Atlanta Braves - OF John Johnson

When I first reviewed him I thought he was a reach in the 1st round. After watching the video more closely, I think he’s a reach in the 10th round. Watching it today, his swing is just not good. He has a complete disconnect between his hands and body. Watching it with my swing guru buddy/cousin today, he expressed sheer disgust as we watched Johnson’s swing frame-by-frame. Most Sunday hackers slice because they come over the top of the ball by yanking the hands from the outside in, instead of turning your body quickly with the hands following until ready to unleash hell. My guess is Johnson, if he is a golfer, either has a severe slice or a pull-hook. I guess he has quick enough hands and is a good athlete, but, uh, not the right pick.

Grade: F


not a good start for Cody J Johnson
   87. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:34 PM (#2152024)
It's a bit late for this and I hate making requests, but what do you think of Eddie Degerman? (I don't have a video link handy...)
   88. Kyle S Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:54 PM (#2152051)
So you think a K rate of 50% is not a good sign for young Cody's future? Why might that be?
   89. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:04 PM (#2152067)
I'm on it.....
   90. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:19 PM (#2152091)
Eddie F. Degerman

WOW, I mean WOW. Ok, that's the Chad Bradford of high arm slots.

Before I go and look at his stats, this is what I'll say.... You know me, I like different. I saw some video of him (a quick feature on him on Rice TV) just now, about 5-7 pitches worth. His velocity seems to be oh, 87-89. HE can probably top at 92 or so would be my guess. Other than his arm slot and the deception that comes with that (it helps that he's 6-4), he is pretty standard up until foot plant. He does have a thing where he "bounces" on the rubber when he lifts his leg which makes him even quirkier. His tempo is pretty good. His arm action isn't as horrible as some make it. He has to make his arm get up there somehow. He says he has been throwing like this for years, so while I wouldn't teach it, familiarity with his own motion would ease my worries about control problems.
His fastball was straight, but from that slot, well... His deuce and change will be what makes or breaks him, and they look pretty good. I can see him having gopher ball issues.

That said, I would definitely take a chance on someone like this, maybe not early, but yeah, why not. He might not make it as a starter in the bigs, but why not pick up a guy like this to be a 7th-8th inning bridge guy.
My guess is that he's dominating the lower levels right now, let's go check....
   91. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:31 PM (#2152117)
Not bad at all

Not dominating like I thought he'd be, but so far, so good.
   92. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 22, 2006 at 04:05 PM (#2152347)
Lincecum at high-A: 3 starts (two against Bakersfield, one against Inland Empire, 12 1/3 IP, 18 K/5 BB, 2.92 ERA. He's allowed 7 hits, two of which have left the yard. I believe he's scheduled to start tonight at home against Stockton, which has a pretty good group of hitters (although many of their better ones have been promoted).

-- MWE
   93. Miss Remember Posted: August 28, 2006 at 09:40 PM (#2159866)
Just a heads up, I'm probably way too late but who cares: the Scherzer video that MLB.com had was from the game against Nebraska when he was still trying to throw through the tendonitis I guess it was. If I remember right he was fidgeting with his arm pretty much constantly the entire game till he had to be taken out and shelved for a few weeks--I think it was a problem and that has to have affected mechanics. It looked like he was practically throwing darts that day as evidenced by the 88-90 on the video. He's a guy that was pretty much always 93-96 touching 8's and 83-5 with the slider...great frame to go with it plus he pretty much went from no changeup to a plus in the matter of a year. If that wasn't the worst game for MLB to film then I don't know which one was.
   94. MM1f Posted: August 28, 2006 at 09:54 PM (#2159877)
I'd kind of like to see a Jason Neigborgall break down...i wonder if MLB.com has some HS footage of him to put against his current stuff. ill hhave to look
   95. Teheran's Uranium Enriched Missiles Posted: August 30, 2006 at 12:16 AM (#2161121)
There were red light alerts and heads up warning around campus whenever Neighourgall was pitching :)
   96. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: August 30, 2006 at 09:43 PM (#2162617)
#6 - Detroit Tigers - P Andrew Miller

Stiff, stiff, stiff. OK, so it looks like he has good movement on his pitches, and he’s tall and lefthanded. Takes the ball out of the glove too early for my liking. Leads with his front shoulder, which I don’t like. Just glides into foot plant. Just doesn’t use his body well to throw. No oomph with his body/legs. Again, he’s tall and a lefty, but I don’t understand the mega-hype. I’ve watched his video a number of times and I still don’t get it. I just don’t see him keeping his velocity throughout his career, as his shoulder just takes a beating. I hope I’m wrong because I’d love to have a Bonderman/Verlander/Zumaya/Miller/Robertson rotation myself in a few years.

Grade: B


I'd like to go ahead and apologize to the Millers for this review. That said, I stand by what I said based on the video that I had initially. I just watched his debut today and he looked MUCH faster/aggressive toward the plate. I'm going to take a closer look at his video(s) as he gets more and more MLB appearances under his belt. Again, this was the inherent danger of basing my reviews on ONE video sample. That said, Lincecum is still my #1 pick.....

I thank Deep Blue (#93) for pointing out the Scherzer thing. Unfortunately for Mr. Scherzer, if I was a scout and had gotten to see him only the one time that the video itself shows, I would've given him the same marks as I did.
   97. Dayton Moore is a Big Fat Idiot (AG#1F) Posted: August 30, 2006 at 09:54 PM (#2162636)
I totally agree with your assessment of Miller and am glad the Royals passed him up.
   98. ChadBradfordWannabe Posted: August 30, 2006 at 10:03 PM (#2162657)
AG,

As impressive as Miller was today, I'd still take Lincecum, Hochevar, and probably Morrow ahead of him.
   99. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: August 30, 2006 at 10:10 PM (#2162670)
#9 - Baltimore Orioles - 3B William Rowell

His video doesn’t really show much. It looks like he has a powerful swing but it’s really hard to tell at full speed if he connects his trunk to his arms. Can’t tell.

Grade: Incomplete

Rowell received a $2.1 million signing bonus from the Orioles and was assigned to Bluefield.


Rowell's done well at Bluefield batting .329/.422/.507/.922 in 42 games. He also played SS and 3B there. He was just promoted to Aberdeen, where he's gone 5 for 12 with 2 doubles in his first 3 games.

Maybe the Orioles have another link in their 2011 championship team.
   100. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: August 31, 2006 at 11:35 AM (#2163132)
You know me, I like different.
Me too - I was hoping you'd enjoy it.

His velocity seems to be oh, 87-89. HE can probably top at 92 or so would be my guess.
Pretty much. IIRC, he averaged about 89 MPH and topped out at 92 when I last charted him (some CWS game - don't know how fast ESPN's guns are).

FWIW, I'd be a sub-crappy scout, but we are in 100% agreement on him.

***

Note on Miller: having seen him several times (I work in Chapel Hill), I was struck by the lateness of the movement on his pitches - don't know if that is upheld by video or not. Regardless, he was a groundball machine - teams consistently swung under his stuff.
Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

<< Back to main

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Marching Through Georgia
for his generous support.

My Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Rule 5 Draft Chatter
(79 - 10:56am, Dec 11)

Roster Shuffling
(23 - 10:04pm, Dec 04)

Draft signings
(109 - 8:08pm, Sep 17)

Draft Chatter
(180 - 11:21am, Jun 18)

Rule 5 Draft
(116 - 3:48pm, Dec 11)

It's never too early
(3 - 9:11pm, Sep 23)

Price's AAA Debut
(11 - 3:18pm, Aug 21)

2008 draft signings
(245 - 8:04pm, Aug 16)

Minor Moves
(16 - 4:02pm, Aug 11)

Vivid Seats is a sports ticket broker, concert ticket broker and theater ticket broker offering the best baseball tickets like Yankees tickets, Cubs tickets, and Red Sox tickets, as well as Police reunion tour tickets and Jersey Boys tickets.

We have baseball tickets, the NFL schedule, college football tickets and Cowboys tickets. We have NBA tickets like Celtics tickets and Lakers tickets. Plus, buy concert tickets, Patriots tickets and Colts tickets. Also check out our MLB baseball schedule

Baseball Bats

JustGreatTickets.com provides the best value for Chicago Cubs Tickets, MLB tickets including Red Sox Tickets, Yankees Tickets, SF Giants Tickets, LA Dodgers Tickets, Cleveland Indians Tickets. Get the best concert tickets like Jonas Brothers tickets and more Chicago Tickets.

Concerts Theatre NFL Angels Dodgers MLB Celtics Theater NBA Tickets Venues NHL Lakers Tickets NFL Yankees NHL Phillies NBA Wicked Marlins MLB Concerts Cubs Mets Red Sox Wicked WWE Red Sox Mets Yankees Dodgers

Major League Baseball: All Star Game, New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox, LA Angels, Washington Nationals, Chicago White Sox, and the Chicago Cubs.

Find terrific deals on Yankees tickets for the new home, Cubs tickets for classic Wrigley, or Red Sox tickets for Fenway with OnlineSeats. We have seats for every baseball game, including Dodgers tickets.

Page rendered in 5.5321 seconds
62 querie(s) executed