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My condolences.
Kazmir
Wigginton
Peterson
Huber
Diaz.
How far does this set the farm system back? 2001?
Short of trading David Wright for Lou Merloni.
Quite true. At the time though, I felt dead inside. (A sign a take baseball way to seriously of course) I can only imagine how Mets fans feel. This is worse.
AND they got fleeced by the two WORST front offices in baseball!
AND there's a report that Zambrano has a tweak in his elbow!!!!
Zambrano, if Peterson can as advertised, fix this flaw in his delivery which is causing the walks, could be a legit #2 type starter. Now, I'm skeptical of any player becoming something they aren't, but I can't deny what Peterson seems to have done so far. Furthermore, what Mazzone has done with Jaret Wright has given me faith in pitching coaches.
The Mets also control him for the next 3 years.
Sure they got hosed a bit, but I'm not that high on Huber or Peterson, so the only major loss was Kazmir, who remains to be seen if he's a starter or a reliever. If he turns into merely a suber relief pitcher, then 3 years of Zambrano for him isn't too bad.
Yeah, I know I'm flailing.
So wait, you're not a fan of catchers with a .400+ OBP?
Did anyone else see Wigginton crying when they interviewed him? Talk about a Mets lifer...
And his absense leaves absolutely no major league potential catchers in the whole system and Jason Phillips and Vance Wilson in the majors.
Catcher was already a weak position, maybe even weaker than outfield in this organization, and they traded the only guy ready.
Hall hit for average, but never took a walk and had no pop in the minors. Josh Paul had no pop, no walks, no average. Martinez we know about. House has fallen to injuries. Your list has no pertinence to Justin Huber in my opinion.
I do know this – this is one of the worst trades in New York Mets history and I want anyone who thinks otherwise to read this one year from now, two years from now, five years from now and know that, from the beginning, some of us knew just how bad this day was going to be for the future of this franchise.
(Shameless plug: http://spanishharlemheat.tripod.com/spanishharlemheat/)
Pardon me if I pass on using that.
"Zambrano, who has been bothered by tendinitis, will be evaluated when he joins the club before a determination is made about when he will start."
well, maybe Peterson can make it work, but it would have been fun to see Kaz develop under his tutelage.
This is an argument in semantics. I was taking issue with someone's claim that the worst loss was Huber, when its Kazmir who's the real loss.
He's injured for the year and he's essentially had one great year in the minors so far, in the great hitting environment of Binghamton.
I'm skeptical on him. Better pure power than Huber, not quite the plate discipline and he might not stick at catcher either because of defensive reasons. He'll also be 24 next year I believe.
I think the idea is not the actual player, but how they lost him. To trade for a former Rule V pick to get a deal for Benson done... not a good move.
Re: 1 The Mets are 6 games out of first behind 3 teams. They have a very slim chance to win the divsion. Not only that, the company line has been all along..."we're building for the future." That's why we didn't sign Vlad, this is a long process. So while it is true that Kazmir may blow out his arm and Huber maybe can't catch in the majors and his bat isn't good enough for 1st and maybe Peterson isn't more than a 4th or 5th starter it's worth hanging on to them to find out.
Most Met fans were pretty content with the way the season has been going. This looks like a team that could be a division winner next year with the right moves. They're not a game out when they could at least argue, "flags fly forever". There is no organizational plan.
Re 2) They got absolute garbage back in return. Benson is a decent starter. Is he worth a 1) cheap utility IF, 2) a C who will be cheap for 6 years and may be a damn good hitter and 3) a starter who could probably be as good as Benson? No ####### way!
And the Kazmir trade really takes the cake. Victor Zambrano not only sucks he has a bad elbow.
Not that I'm complaining...
This'd be the same J.R. House who put up a 1.116 OPS in the AFL, and followed it up with a .857 OPS at AAA this year?
He was hurt, but then he got better, and re-commenced smacking the #### out of the ball.
That'll help me sleep tonight.
Yeah. The JR House with bad BB:PA and BB:K ratios. He is still only 24 and when he did play last year he was pretty good. But what he's doing this year doesn't make me think he can post a .300 OBP in the majors. He does have power, but nobody ever questioned that. He could end up being a decent major leaguer, I don't think he's going to ever be posting .857 OPS's in the majors though.
When I saw that the Royals had traded Bautista, I thought they had traded Denny Bautista -- the guy lighting up Double A. Reading the article, I find it was Jose Bautista -- who I think is best described as "you know, that one guy? The Rule 5 guy? No, not the fast one -- the other one." I think the Royals picked him up for cash when Randa got hurt.
In return, they get a 21 year old catcher who hit .271/.414/.487 in Double A and .313/.421/.438 in Triple A? Did the guy drop a piano on his foot, or what? Does he have some major personality issue that make him significantly worse than his statistics?
What's really weird is that Bautista-for-Huber looks like the only reason they were involved in this trade. The Pirates could have simply kept Huber, and you'd have to think the Mets could have dug up somebody as good as Bautista if they really wanted to.
Get your Benson and Zambrano jerseys
There are concerns about his defense and sticking at catcher. That's about it.
Sorry about the prospects, Mets fans.
Seems a little Nick Johnsonish. That is too ready to get the HBP. That doesn't work well in the big leagues.
Piazza
Wilson
Phillips
Zeile
Reyes
McEwing
Matsui
Wright
Floyd
Cameron
Hidalgo
Valent
Garcia
Glavine
Leiter
Trachsel
Zambrano
Benson
Bottalico
Franco
Stanton
Moreno
Parra
DeJean
Looper
But, IF he sticks at catcher, he'll be a good hitter for a catcher, even if he is Nick Johnsonish the way Nick Johnson is now.
That's the best looking roster you've had in years.
I think the 1999 team is better than this, without a question.
Yes if he can get some ABs, he might be a good hitting catcher, but I'd be concerned.
btw-I first read that as "if he stinks at catcher" which really changes the whole meaning.
End to end ... yes. You only have a few position players where its close. Your starting pitching is better than '99. Moreover, that was 5 years ago.
It's self appointed.
I still don't get it. Are you like a wrestling tag-team or something. If so I think you need a little more like "Marvelous Matt" and "Jammin' Jeremey" in the parenthesis.
You also need a good manager. I think Jim Coronette is looking for work.
I didn't even think of that. Did the D-Rays ever run an MRI on him?
Being what we think, as the two youngest ones on here, we appointed ourselves the Boy Wonders.
If you'd like to manage, I think we are currently accepting resumes.
Then you probably don't get the Jim Coronette/Midnight Express joke.
If you'd like to manage, I think we are currently accepting resumes.
If you are a heel team I think my reputation speaks for itself. I can certainly announce your presence when you enter threads, and throw you a steel pipe if Treder or Davis beating up on you.
Find a fourth and I'll create a JJ Dillon handle. (Not sure if you'd get that one either.)
How old is Richie?
That whole Yankee fan things is gonna hurt your candidacy.
Er..WE BEAT THE BRAVES!
Er...
Also, now that I've gotten over the shock of the sheer stupidity of the Mets dealings today I must say that it's not fair that the Mets get to sell their farm in an attempt to buy a championship. Maybe they should be forced to have a good farm...like the Yankees. (/sarcasm...kind of)
Now I want all you pencil neck saberists to put down your spreadsheets and show some respect for the finest thing to hit baseball analysis since you little whiny brats read Bill James. The stats-defying, all encompassing.. Booyyyy Wonders
Jammin' Jeremey, Marvelous Matt, Hot Jorge, and Ravishing Richie. Now which one of you losers is going to step into the squared comment box to challenge the future and franchise of Baseball Primer.
</practicing>
There's my audition tape.
By the way, can someone pin this thread on the BP page. I'd like it if we kept this going for the remainder of the season.
It could be worse, you could be a Phillies fan.
Yup. ;(
Matt = Ole, Jeremy = Arn (the original tag team), but if I'm in, do I get to be Ric?
Let's see what you got Nature Boy
OK, let me TRY to see what they were thinking. I don't think this is really about this year. Sure, if they can get hot, if Peterson can straighten out Zambrano, maybe they can get back into it, but I don't think that's what Wilpon's thinking. I think this is about winning in 2005. There's a pretty good chance Leiter's going to retire after this season. If he does, and if they don't believe in Seo or Heilman, that gives them only 2 starting pitchers for next year. Benson and Zambrano make it 4 reasonably reliable starters (in their mind, at least).
If they really don't believe Huber can be an effective catcher, then I suppose it's not unreasonable to think that nobody they traded could be relied upon for next year's team. There are important members of the team who aren't going to last much longer (Glavine, Piazza, Floyd), so Wilpon may think he has to go for it next season.
Now that doesn't explain why they thought they needed to get these guys now, as opposed to picking them up (or players just as good) in the offseason. And I have a feeling that Kazmir got traded primarily because of the "attitude issues" (remember, Wilpon just got embarassed by Spencer this week, and he worries WAY too much about this). And it may say something that Kazmir's name was out there in trade talks - we all heard about this yesterday - and it doesn't seem like anyone else made an offer.
And one thing just to offer a sliver of hope. Imagine it's 1994 and they did something like this and gave up Izzy and Pulse. We probably would have reacted the same way we are now.
Oh, and this team is never going to be successful until the Wilpons either let people who know what they're doing run it or sell the frickin' team.
Can I make one really good post, and repeat it over and over again for 30 years?
Off the top of my head these guys did not have very impressive minor league careers. Kazmir has.
When I was 15 years old, the Mets broke my heart with a trade of my boyhood idol. They got back crap for the greatest right-handed pitcher ever, the greatest player in their history, and the hero who led them in from the wilderness. I was living in Miami, listening to the scratchy Braves' radio broadcast from Atlanta, hoping that they wouldn't have word the Mets had traded Seaver. When they announced the deal had been made, and I heard the litany of players (and I use that term very loosely) they got in return, I was shattered. I tore to shreds the scrapbook of clippings & box scores I'd been keeping all season. I screamed at the radio, as if it was the radio's fault. To this day, I think part of my visceral dislike of the Braves traces back to the fact that it was their announcers who broke the news, and broke my heart.
Tonight, they've done worse. They broke the pact they made with the fans, the pact that said they were going to do things differently. That they'd learned the price of trying for the quick fix, of frittering away young players for the sake of piecing together a faux contender. That they were asking us to be patient, because they were going to build a deep, productive farm system.
Yeah, right. To spend on nothing. I won't be fooled any more. You don't learn a lesson, Wilpon, you just don't figure it out. There IS such a thing as a pitching prospect, and a catching prospect, and Scott Kazmir and Justin Huber were -- are -- the real McCoy. Are you so obtuse that you didn't learn absorb ANYTHING from the excitement created by Jose Reyes last year? You just threw away a huge part of the team you were supposed to build on the foundation laid by Reyes and Wright.
On what? Let's see . . . Kris Benson. Lifetime losing record. Lifetime 4.27 ERA. Hasn't had an ERA+ of even 100 since 2000. Last two years, a W/K ratio of 86/147. This year? 44/83 -- better, but not exactly the stuff an ace is made of. Over the three years, 130/230. Ugh. And that's not cherry-picking stats -- those are the only relevant numbers, because they're post-injury.
And Victor Zambrano??? Oh, lord. The man walked 106 batters in 188 innings in 2003 -- and he's even worse this year! He has 96 walks in 128 innings! Not to mention 16 HBP. All he is is "stuff," unharnessed as of yet at the age of 29 (well, 29 next week).
Buster Olney has it exactly right in his breakdown on ESPN.com.
I didn't watch the game tonight. I don't know when I'll watch again. It takes a lot for me not to watch my Mets. Not to even want to. They managed to turn the trick. What began as fury is gradually turning into a mix of anger and utter sadness at the ineptitude. Wake me when the nightmare is over.
Imagine its 1982 and we trade Darling and Terrell for Lee Mazzilli.
This organization has an annoying habit of making moves as if one player will push them over the top. This is not the case. With respet to the push for 2005, the 2005 team will be older than the 2004 team - John Franco will be 44 and McEwing 32, for example.
The "long-term plan" was the spin put on the Vladdy publicity stunt turned bad.
That was the year he was a combined 21-4 in AA, AAA and the majors.
As for Bill, there was no higher level minor league dominance.
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