In five years Edgar will be elected in to the Hall of the Very Good.

That's my feeling on it too Eugene... his numbers were good but not great. I think though he might get elected to the Hall of "What if ..." Along with Donny Baseball, Herb Score and several others.

According to Baseball Reference, Martinez fails on three of their four HoF metrics:

Black Ink: Batting - 20 (102) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 107 (190) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 48.1 (79) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 128.5 (96) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

FYI.

He's a VC choice if he gets in at all....I will miss Edgar, but he's stayed too long.

He's a First Ballot entrant to the Hall of Gimpy DH's.

He could rake with the best of them, but his late start and lack of any other skill keeps him out. I'll miss watching him hit though.

According to Baseball Reference, Martinez fails on three of their four HoF metrics:

Black Ink: Batting - 20 (102) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 107 (190) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 48.1 (79) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 128.5 (96) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

No, he clearly passes on two, and fails on two. His HOF Standards is fine, he's 1.9 off the average Hall of Famer. Remember, the ~# isn't the "minimum" it's the average, so by nature there are players that are below it. His HOF Standards is more than close enough. And his Black Ink isn't bad.

And despite that, I don't think he's a HOFer.

I'm a small Hall guy, so rather than let Edgar in, I'd rather kick out a bunch of guys who ARE in who couldn't hold a candle to the Big E. He made my four years in Seattle magical, especially that night against the Yankees in 2001.


The night Edgar became my #2 hero forever

Whoops, that's in 2000, not 2001.

As sappy as this sounds, Edgar is in my Hall.

I will miss Edgar, but he's stayed too long.

He had a OPS+ of 139 and 144 for the last two years, so if he stayed too long, its only for this season. I hardly call that "too long".

Edgar managed to pull off the rare feat of killing my team many times, but still earning my respect and admiration. Just a smart, smart hitter. If ever there was someone tailor-made to be a hitting coach, I'd think it would be him. However, he was one-dimensional, and when that one dimension started to slip, it was time to go.

He's not quite a Hall of Famer in my opinion either, although part of that was the Mariners screwing around with him and not bringing him up to the majors sooner. He hit .329,.363, and .345 at ages 24, 25, and 26 in Calgary while getting jerked back and forth. There's no way he shouldn't have been up, especially being blocked by Jim Presley. Give him some of those years, and his counting stats would give him a better case.

I think he's one of those guys like, say, Mickey Mantle, who people assume hung around too long because he wasn't putting up gaudy batting averages any more.

I mean, from what I had heard about Mickey Mantle's last few years before I finally looked him up I certainly didn't expect him to be among the top players in OPS+ in his last year.

I think he's in, but that's just my opinion.

Call up AJ Zapp!

sjs1959...

I dont agree he stayed too long.

Last year he hit .294/406/489 in a pitchers ballpark, and had a 139 OPS + to go along with his 24 homers and 98 RBI.

So how can you say he should have hung it up after last year? These guys are ballplayers. Thats what they do. You don't know if you are still good enough until you go out there and dont play well. So until you cant play well, or your body just wont let you, you keep playing.

Meh, I think he is a HOF- Career OPS+ of 151 (which undervalues him because of the OBP weighting), 2100 hits, retires with the 17th best OBP of all time, and and ranks 32nd overall in OPS+. From 1995-2001 in the AL, he finished outside the top 2 in OBP once- (he finished 6th), and was in the top 8 of OPS every year. A 7 time all-star, and he probably deserved to be on a couple more teams. I think there are a lot worse players than Edgar in the hall, and I certainly see no problem with putting him in.

I feel so good about this "immediate" retirement, because, on the way home today, listening to those morons on WEEI in Boston, Pete Shepherd (from here on to be referred to as "Buffoon") interrupted the show with the news that Martizez had retired, and Glen Ordway (hereby referred to as "Blowhard") asked "Buffoon" if Martinez was retiring immediately, or at the end of the season.

"I don't know" replied Buffoon, setting off a wave of abuse from Blowhard.

"Why don't you know?" Blowhard asked.

"I'll check" Buffoon promised.

Blowhard then asked Buffoon what his guess was---immediate retirement, or, end of the season retirement.

"I'm not sure", Buffoon offered, to which Blowhard replied, authoritatively, "He'll retire at the end of the season. That way, the Mariners can use the last month of the season to give him a nice send-off".

Buffoon then chimed in with "I'll go with immediate retirement". Knowing Buffoon, he probably saw it on a wire story already. But that's OK, because Blowhard needs to be slapped down often.

OK, sorry, back to the Edgar tribute.

Correct me If Im wrong on this, but Martinez also goes into the hall with over 300 Win Shares- Im curious what the HOF average is...

I don't think Edgar belongs in the HOF, but that's hardly an insult.

He is one of the reigning stars on the great-hitters-with-precious-little-defensive-value team. Others on that fun-to-watch squad would be Rico Carty, Smoky Burgess, Cliff Johnson, Dick Stuart, Jim Ray Hart, Oscar Gamble, Jerry Lynch, Ron Northey, and Carl Sawatski.

He's a First Ballot entrant to the Hall of Gimpy DH's.

Posting as Hal McRae, Fred McGriff, Harold Baines, Don Baylor, Chili Davis, Brian Downing, and Willie Horton

Finally! A Hall for us!

Despite only ~4 seasons worth of playing a position other than DH, he had 264 Win Shares through 1999. I'm too lazy to dig around, but he must have ended up with something like 350, yes?

Which has more value, not playing defense or playing it poorly.

I'll go with poorly.

According to Baseball Reference, Martinez fails on three of their four HoF metrics:

Black Ink: Batting - 20 (102) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 107 (190) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 48.1 (79) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 128.5 (96) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

That's not failing, especially on the HOF Standards. To fail to be an average HOFer doesn't mean you don't belong; by definition about half of the people in there are below average.

Crap, sorry, that was 264 WS through 2001, not 1999.

Bill James Handbook says Edgar had 297 career win shares going into this year...

Which has more value, not playing defense or playing it poorly.

I'll go with poorly.

Me too.

Wow. I don't think the M's "pushed" Edgar into retiring with all their moves. He knew the team wasn't going to cut him, and would let him retire on his own terms, and would certainly honor him at the end of the season. And yet he felt strongly enough to retire now. That's truly admirable, a la Mike Schmidt in his last year.

I will miss watching Edgar play. Will check out the press conference, if it's on MLB.com or one of the local radio stations.

Oh, c'mon, with a 151 OPS+, it's not at all fair to compare him to guys like Dick Stuart and Chili Davis.

If he were a Gold Glove 3B, he'd definitely go in.
If he were a decent fielding 3B, I think he would still very likely go in.
As it is... I'll agree that he is just out. He is ALWAYS going to be towards the very top of the "best players who aren't in" list, though. Sometimes, if you're well-liked enough (as he is), and if there are no other good candidates at a given time, that can be enough to get you in on a lucky break.

Meh- Ill go with not at all, if you assume that there is such a thing as replacement value defense.

Edgar was displeased with the treatment of Olerud... Olerud was released one day before the John Olerud "kids with disabilities" night, or something like that. Tomorrow night at Safeco is "Edgar Bear Night", in which they are giving away these creepy teddy bears with Edgar's face on them... Hmmmm. How immediate is that retirement?

That's not failing, especially on the HOF Standards. To fail to be an average HOFer doesn't mean you don't belong; by definition about half of the people in there are below average.

But if you are a DH, I would say you need to meet at least the average hitting qualifications of a HOFer.

Damn Mariners, shoulda brought him up earlier and this would probably not be a debate.

I think I speak for everyone when I say, enough with the "meh" already.

I feel like I need a support group. You know this is coming at some point, but its still hard to take.

Derek Zumsteg wrote a great article last October about Edgar's possible retirement which I thought I'd drag back out now.

But if you are a DH, I would say you need to meet at least the average hitting qualifications of a HOFer.

It was my impression that those categories take defensive position into account; I could be wrong.

Great hitter, probably will be (and should be) one of the very best players not to make the HOF. I just can't see enshrining a guy with only 8000 plate appearances and virtually no defensive value. It's a crime he never got 500+ plate appearances until he was 27 years old.

But if you are a DH, I would say you need to meet at least the average hitting qualifications of a HOFer.

1.9 points? That's nearly splitting hairs. Like I said, I don't think he's a HOFer--but I'm not going to point out him being that damn close to being an average HOFer as an argument.

But if you are a DH, I would say you need to meet at least the average hitting qualifications of a HOFer.

Those aren't the qualifications. They are just methods that try to describe and predict HOF careers.

But if you are a DH, I would say you need to meet at least the average hitting qualifications of a HOFer.


Well he certainly meets that. Of the guys in the OPS+ list above him, all are in the Hall except (a) Joe Jackson and (b) a few 19th century guys (Pete Browning), or (c) guys who had 6 year careers.

Of those below him, it's pretty much the same - some 19th century guys,a nd guys who had 6 year careers.

It was my impression that those categories take defensive position into account; I could be wrong.

Looks like black ink and gray ink don't, BUT they also don't count on base % at all, and he led the league three times.

HOF standards give defensive points on a scale of 0-20; suffice it to say he's giving up more than 1.9 to most other players there.

Those aren't the qualifications.

Are you sure? Where is the list of statistics you need to compile for admission to the HOF? We can just look them up and make sure he has passed them. I'm not sure why we are even debating this.

Damn Mariners, shoulda brought him up earlier and this would probably not be a debate.

For real, the M's kept Edgar in the minors at least two extra years after he had proven he could hit so they could play Jim effin Presley at third. I don't have access to his minor league numbers here but Martinez was tearing up AAA pitchers while Presley was his usual sucky self. It's not as if the Mariners were involved in any kind of pennant race back then either. I'm for a small HOF so I don't think Edgar makes it but two or three more years just might make the difference. Martinez has always came across as a class act and probably deserved better. If he does make the HOF he won't be the worst player there by a huge margin.

Are you sure? Where is the list of statistics you need to compile for admission to the HOF? We can just look them up and make sure he has passed them. I'm not sure why we are even debating this.

Sarcasm detectdd. I'm sorry I referred to them as "qualifications" in the first place.

I'd put him in.

If we're going to accept relief pitcher as a specific position such that relievers can be elected despite throwing less than 1/2 of the innings of most HoF starters, then we need to go ahead and accept DH as a specific position even though those players do only 1/2 of what ordinary position players do.

His offensive numbers, at any other position, would get him in without question. Someone needs to be the first DH in, and Edgar -- quiet Edgar, with the sweet swing and consistent production -- is the right choice.

For the locals, KOMO 1000 is broadcasting the press conference right now.

He says at the end of the YEAR.

I finally decided he belonged in the hall when they did that "Baseball Survivor" thing a couple of years ago. For every hitter, they had a list of the most similar hitters in terms of peak season values -- and Edgar was on an awful lot of those lists. Looks like a hall of famer, quacks like a hall of famer... :-)

Again, Im curious- given the peak value, given the high OBP and OPS, given the 2119 hits, what keeps him out ? Especially if one accepts the concept of replacement value defense- god awful defense, or the idea that many a power hitting 1b got in on his defense, is unacceptable as a barrier, from my perspetive. Hell, Edgar has roughly as many (+/- 100) if not more hits than among others: Duke Snider, Billy Hamilton, Hack Wilson, Willie Stargell, Willie McCovey, and Jeff Bagwell- all of those are HOF right now, and Bags would be if he retired today. The only point Im making here is about career length- he's had a higher OPS+ that all of these players, and still ranked at their level cumulatively.

The Zumsteg piece is a very nice testament of what can be a very beautiful one-way relationship between a fan and a player.

But for the name and a few facts that could be any of us and those special one-a-generation guys we just plain enjoy watching go about playing the game.

He says at the end of the YEAR.


Damn. So Blowhard WAS right. Crap.

There are conflicting reports on this. Some say immediate retirement, some say end of year. Anyway, we'll know in less than 1/2 hour.

Accuse me of Mariner bias, but he's a HOF guy, IMHO.

I started thinking 2-3 months back that a midseason retirement might come from Edgar. The team was going nowhere, and he wasn't producing like he had in the past. I would love to know what discussions went on behind the scenes (if any, I suppose I should say). His reduced playing time made sense for the future of the team, but was an unfortunate treatment for a guy who took millions leess to play in Seattle when he was still the best DH in baseball.

Just Announced - he said he will retire at the end of the season.

I'll go with Caveman on this issue. Like it or not DH is a position. If Edgar doesn't get in as a DH, then its unlikely any other DH gets in any time soon.

Is that a reason to put him in? No, of course not. However, if Edgar's stats aren't good enough, then what are the benchmarks a DH must reach to merit election to the HOF? Since 3000 hits 500 HR qualifies a position player, are those enough for a DH? Or does the lack of any defensive value raise the bar for DHs?

I'd say no, but heck, I could be wrong.

Attention Bret Boone! Please lock the doors on the way out. You're the last one left

Attention Bret Boone! Please lock the doors on the way out. You're the last one left

(Posting as Jamie Moyer)

Hey? Anybody out there? Guys?

I'll go with Caveman on this issue. Like it or not DH is a position. If Edgar doesn't get in as a DH, then its unlikely any other DH gets in any time soon.

I agree completely. No other DH comes close to Edgar; if he doesn't get in, it's doubtful that any other DH gets in.

Hijack:

Season over for Pat Burrell as well.

Pat isn't HOF material either.

I think PMC is making a funny.

Count Dan Wilson among the remaindermen, too. In fact, he's the only one who played with Edgar all the way back to the breakthrough 1995 season. I'll bet the drag ol' Danny back next season as well.

Based on 2003 cumulative and 2004 YTD Win Shares data, Edgar will retire with 302 or 303 win shares.

He would not be a disgrace to the Hall, given the actual standards as applied by the Veterans Committee over the years, but he has little or no chance of actually being elected.

As outstanding as his batting rate stats are, I don't know that I would elect him. No speed, no fielding, limited overall career length. As a player rated solely on batting ability, he is very close. Tomorrow I could look at the same numbers and come to a different conclusion, that is how close I see it.

Hmmm. Didn't we have a BTF dust-up about the Four-Letter Network never, ever running with a story until they got the details right?

Original article headline has been altered. It now reads Edgar to retire after season. "Immediately" does not equal "after the season" IMO.

This is more how I thought Edgar would leave. I.e. not really news as 99% of the Western world suspected he would retire as of winter 2005.

OK, mea culpa on the staying too long. if you project out what he might have done had they called him up earlier, then he might have a chance.

However, if we're going to take DHs, Harold Baines goes in first, in my book.

Well, y'all know where I stand.... Regurgitated Flatulence

Best Regards

John

No other DH comes close to Edgar; if he doesn't get in, it's doubtful that any other DH gets in.

True. Which wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep.

DH isn't really a position. It's more of a role, like pinch-hitter or utility infielder. Most teams don't opt for a single, full-time DH; they prefer to use the DH spot as a means of rotating resting regulars and spotting platoon guys. I don't see any reason why any full-time DH would ever need to be in the HOF, unless his career stats were just overwhelming, 600 HRs or something. Edgar's stats are terrific, but hardly overwhelmingly Hall-worthy.

Edgar should be in the Hall. He shouldn't be penalized for not playing a position in the field if that was how he was most beneficial to his team. I'm sure if he were in the NL, he'd have played a position to get his bat in the line-up. Why should he be penalized for being in the AL and playing where his team asked him to?

So if Edgar was in the National League and played a mediocre first base while hitting as he has all these years, is he in the Hall?

I say yes, and that's one more reason why he should be a HOFer.

And can anyone with the keys to Primer change the thread headline, or does it have to be Sean? I've sent him an email.

He shouldn't be penalized for not playing a position in the field if that was how he was most beneficial to his team.

Not sure I buy this logic. Tom Prince's teams decided he would be most beneficial being deployed as the backup catcher. Backup catcher is not as valuable a role as starting player.

Full-time DH is not as valuable a role as a full-time player in the field, even at 1B or LF.

Edgar wasn't in the NL, and the HOF vote is based on what a player did, not on what he might have done. And I've been led to believe that Edgar's problem was that he kept getting hurt when playing in the field, so if he had been in the NL, he might very well have been a 375-ABs-per-year first baseman. No matter how well you hit in that role, you aren't a Hall of Famer.

DH isn't really a position. It's more of a role, like pinch-hitter or utility infielder.

How is that different from relief pitcher? Pitcher is the position, relief pitcher is the role. But we're admitting players whose career stats would fall far short of HoFworthiness if we defined their careers by the traditional view of what their positions should produce. As good as Mariano Rivera has been, does anyone seriously think that a starter who retired with 1300 or 1400 IP would merit any discussion at all?

Edgar is (with apologies to Harold Baines) the best DH thus far, and it's been 30 years now since the DH lumbered its way into the baseball lexicon. Either we make the argument that all DH's are out (like the people who refuse to vote a pitcher for MVP), or we make the argument that DHs can be in but they have to have been better than Edgar.

I don't think we can do the first without eliminating relief pitchers as well. I'd buy the second, but only on the grounds that Edgar simply got a very late start to a very stellar career.

On the numbers, I'd vote him in, even if the counting stats come up a little short.

How is that different from relief pitcher?

Not at all. I'm not at all convinced that full-time relief pitchers should necessarily be in the HOF either.

Either we make the argument that all DH's are out (like the people who refuse to vote a pitcher for MVP), or we make the argument that DHs can be in but they have to have been better than Edgar.

The latter argument is the one I would make.

a 375-ABs-per-year first baseman. No matter how well you hit in that role, you aren't a Hall of Famer.

Over at the Hall of Merit, we've been having some interesting arguments about Frank Chance - but we aren't on the verge of electing him.

It's really not true that performance alone gets one into the HOF, although that is the case the vast majority of the time. Kirby and Sandy have smaller cumulative stats than most HoFers, and there's plenty of good-great players with better counting stats that haven't/won't get a sniff at the HoF. HoF voters have before shown flexibility when a player's career is shorter than it should have been. This will just be a rare case where the years missed came at the beginning of the career rather than later.

"Accuse me of Mariner bias, but he's a HOF guy, IMHO."

J'ACCUSE!

Frank Chance was a hell of a good hitter; not as good as Edgar but really not much worse.

And he was a brilliant baserunner, one of the top base stealers in baseball despite rarely playing full time.

And he was considered a good defensive first baseman, in an era when first base was a very important defensive position.

And he was the playing manager of the best team in baseball at the height of their dynasty.

Man, you Hall of Merit guys are tough. It sounds like you're not gonna give Edgar the time of day.

Maybe Edgar can get elected to the Hall of Justice?

Steve, you seem to simply have the position that Edgar can't go in because he didn't contribute much defensively. Instead of looking at what he didn't do--play much defense--why not look at the value he actually produced?

I consider McGwire to be a clear HOF. Not an inner-circle guy, but one who very clearly belongs. Edgar has produced basically the same career and peak value as him--despite not adding much defensively.

We're arguing, rightfully, whether the best DH ever deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

This sits with me as perhaps the best argument against the DH I've ever heard.

Frank Chance was a hell of a good hitter; not as good as Edgar but really not much worse.

Adjusted for alltime, Chance had a .301 EqA and Edgar has a .332 EqA. Edgar is as close to Bonds (.354) as he is to Chance in terms of offensive efficiency.

Once again, adjusted for alltime, Chance never once had a season EqA as good as Edgar's career EqA.

Career WARP3
Edgar: 108.6
McGwire: 103.6

I don't think WARP is a fair argument though. It gives Edgar a free pass, with replacement-level defensive runs. Fact is, Seattle had to find someone to play 1B in his place, so there's a cost there that WARP doesn't consider.

I consider McGwire to be a clear HOF. Not an inner-circle guy, but one who very clearly belongs.

Well, I'm not a believer in just looking at one stat, even as sophisticated and comprehensive a stat as WARP3.

McGwire's OPS+ was better than Edgar's, and his defensive contribution, while small, still dwarfs Edgar's.

Adjusted for alltime

How is this adjustment performed?

Yeah, we're tough. Everything you say about Frank Chance is true, and we're aware of it. His problems are that he has only 1287 games played in his career, and we are considering him only as a player, not as a manager. We haven't elected John McGraw, either. We also haven't elected a first baseman since the Anson/Brouthers/Connor trio, although Jake Beckley is getting close, and things may not be easy for George Sisler. I have no idea how we'll see Edgar, since we don't look that far ahead.

Not that WARP3 is the ultimate stat or anything, but it is handy (unlike, for me right now, anyway, win shares):

Anyway, career WARP3:

Edgar Martinez 108.6

HOFs:
Tony Perez 96.1
Orlando Cepeda 89.7
Rod Carew 111.0
Willie Stargell 103.7
Willie McCovey 106.8
Harmon Killebrew 102.0
Duke Snider 105.3

Others:
Frank Thomas 116.5
Don Mattingly 85.1
Keith Hernandez 90.9
Andre Dawson 104.4
Alan Trammell 112.2</pre>

I think Killebrew, McCovey, Stargell, Carew, and Snider are no-question HOFers. Though Edgar doesn't have 3000 hits or 500 HR or much career defensive value, he produced as much as those guys, so I think he's in.

I may not understand WARP, but I think I do. From my understanding, McGwire gets credit for Fielding Runs Above Replacement, while Edgar gets none. This means the value of Edgar's batting is measured against the value of McGwire's fielding plus the value of McGwire's batting. How is that not fair?

How is that different from relief pitcher?

Not at all. I'm not at all convinced that full-time relief pitchers should necessarily be in the HOF either.

See, I agree with this. I'm not completely convinced that relievers belong either. Eckersley was a special case, and Smoltz would be another. Both had lengthy and good careers as starters prior to becoming one-inning specialists.

But I can't really support the Mariano Rivera for the HoF campaign, even though if he retired right now he'd probably be in on the first ballot and called the most dominant reliever ever. At some point, you end up electing Manny Mota as the greatest pinch hitter ever, and John Franco as the greatest LOOGY ever, and Darrin Baker as the greatest batboy ever, and eventually everyone's in the HoF in one capacity or another.

Either we make the argument that all DH's are out (like the people who refuse to vote a pitcher for MVP), or we make the argument that DHs can be in but they have to have been better than Edgar.

The latter argument is the one I would make.

That's a tough bar to set. You have to find a player who is both a better hitter than Edgar (a tough task) and who has no position. Look at all the questionable defensive people who get plopped down at 1B or hidden in LF in order to keep their bats in the lineup. In another city, Edgar Martinez might have been the hapless but hard-hitting 1B that the Mariners didn't need with Tino Martinez there.

Of course, if you believe that, even had Edgar provided replacement-level defense in addition to his offense, he still falls short of the Hall, then I have no quibble with that.

How is that not fair?

Because it assumes Edgar was an exact replacement-level fielder, which he wasn't. He was below replacement level; his team's flexibility was inhibited by his incapacity to contribute anything in the field.

According to the BPro glossary, WARP2 is adjusted for "difficulty" - I guess under the assumption that the quality of play is higher now than it was in the past. WARP3 is just adjusted for differing season lengths, I believe.

And furthermore, Steve, according to BPro, Edgar had 48 fielding runs above replacement player for his career ("adjusted for all time") while Mark McGwire has 37.

So, at least according to BPro, Edgar has the edge on McGwire in the field. Which is somewhat amusing, and I suppose could (should?) be taken as an argument against BPro's fielding metrics, but there it is.

That's a tough bar to set.

You call it tough. I call it principled. :-)

In another city, Edgar Martinez might have been the hapless but hard-hitting 1B that the Mariners didn't need with Tino Martinez there.

Might haves don't cut it. Actually dids are what it's about.

(spits on the ground)

Man, it's fun bein' tough!

Which is somewhat amusing, and I suppose could (should?) be taken as an argument against BPro's fielding metrics, but there it is.

Now, how could anyone ever make an argument against BPro's fielding metrics? Come on.

I may not understand WARP, but I think I do. From my understanding, McGwire gets credit for Fielding Runs Above Replacement, while Edgar gets none. This means the value of Edgar's batting is measured against the value of McGwire's fielding plus the value of McGwire's batting. How is that not fair?

Because it fails to take into consideration that Martinez cost his team by requiring someone to defend for him. McGwire did not impose that cost on his team.

You call it tough. I call it principled. :-)

Hey, I can respect that. I'm also in favor of bigger All-Star teams because the managers are generally lousy at filling them out with deserving players.

Big Hall, big All-Star teams. I'm just a big-hearted guy.

Surprised no one has done the Keltner thing yet, so here goes:

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

Not that I ever heard.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Definitely in '95, probably in '01, Ichiro MVP notwithstanding. Hard to fault someone for not being as good as ARod or Griffey at his best.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

He was probably the best DH in baseball in '92, '95, '96, '97, '98, and '01.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Definitely. Seattle made it to the post season in '95, '97, '00, and '01. Martinez' lowest OPS in those years was .996.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Definitely. From ages 32-40, his lowest OPS+ was 139.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Probably not.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?


No, but most of his best comps aren't eligible yet. The only eligible players on his 10 best comps are Chuck Klein, Bob Johnson, and Fred Lynn. Of those, on Chuck Klein in in the HoF. Others include Will Clark, John Olerud, Larry Walker, Luis Gonzalez, Ellis Burks, Paul O'Neill, Gary Sheffield. Of those players, only Sheffield probably has a real shot at the hall, though Clark and Walker might be regarded as having outside shots.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

A little below average in black and grey ink. Just about average in "Standards", and well above average in the "Monitor". I'd say that's a yes.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Obviously being a DH his entire career weighs against him here. Otoh, it is almost certain that he would have put up alot more counting stats had he been given the chance to play before he was 27.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

When he becomes eligible, I don't think there is any doubt. He's clearly better than Baines and McRae.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

1995 (356/479/628) and 1996 (327/464/595) were probably his only MVP-caliber seasons. He never won the award. He placed in the top 10 twice (3rd in 1995, 6th in 2000).

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

He was an all-star 7 times ('92, '95-'97, '00, '01, '03). He posted a >150 OPS+ 8 times in his career (which seems like a good "All-Star type season" benchmark for a DH).

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

At his peak, yes, in fact they did it with him as the best player in '95 and in '01.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

None that I am aware of. He was the first player to have so great a percentage of his career ABs as a DH. He is one of many poster children for "hey, minor league stats matter".

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

I have never heard anything to suggest otherwise.

Conclusion
I don't think I ever realized how good he was for so long. I'd always thought of him as a fragile player, but he exceeded 550 PAs 11 times. I think I would vote for him, but it is certainly close.


Go nuts.

Is the argument, "Any DH, no matter how awesome doesn't deserve to be in the HoF" or is it, "There is a quantifiable level at which a DH deserve to be in, but Edgar didn't make it"

If it's the former, then how's that different from the argument, "Any 1B, no matter how awesome doesn't deserve to be in the HoF because he's not a CF".

If it's the latter, what is the level of performance that you would be satisfied with from a DH before you would elect them?

Can we stop pretending that Edgar never played the field? He did have 591 games played in the field. The Big Hurt, going into this season, played 967, and I haven't heard much of an argument that he doesn't belong in the HoF because he DHs too much. If Thomas plays one or two more years, he'll probably have more games at DH than 1B. Where is the line between 591 and 967 (or whatever the end number will be)?

Regarding timeline adjustment: of course Frank Chance's competition was vastly easier than Edgar's. But HOF (or Hall of Merit, I presume) are based on how well a player did against his actual competition, not against the abstract imaginary "all-time" competition.

<i>And furthermore, Steve, according to BPro, Edgar had 48 fielding runs above replacement player for his career ("adjusted for all time") while Mark McGwire has 37.<i>

But almost all of those 48 runs came from non-DH performance. He didn't get any dings for bad fielding otherwise, and his team had to play someone else to replace him.

I really don't think there is a good comprehensive stat for comparing players who spent a significant portion of their careers as DHs with those who didn't.

He was below replacement level; his team's flexibility was inhibited by his incapacity to contribute anything in the field.

I think this is partly false. Sure, the last couple of seasons he essentially could not play the field, but look at his fielding stats - he went from playing 64 games at third-base in 1994 to a full-time DH in 1995. He was injured (if I remember correctly) in 1994, but I have a hard time believing that he couldn't have played 1B if they needed him to in 1995. I mean, he still played 3B a couple of times a year through 1997.

I don't think you can accurately say that he incapacitated the team by his inability to play the field from 1995-2004. As long as he was still playing a few games at 3B, I have to think that he could have held down 1B regularly, so I would say that that began to hurt the team starting, as a guess, in 1998.

He did have 591 games played in the field. The Big Hurt, going into this season, played 967, and I haven't heard much of an argument that he doesn't belong in the HoF because he DHs too much.

That's a significant difference, but who says Thomas should get a free pass?

The Big Hurt, going into this season, played 967, and I haven't heard much of an argument that he doesn't belong in the HoF because he DHs too much.

It's a very valid argument on the "con" side of his case.

But he's been a better hitter than Edgar, and he's still piling up the counting stats. And the difference between 591 and the end number is a meaningful difference.

EqA: Equivalent Average. A measure of total offensive value per out, with corrections for league offensive level, home park, and team pitching. EQA considers batting as well as baserunning, but not the value of a position player's defense. The EqA adjusted for all-time also has a correction for league difficulty.

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Well, I'm not a believer in just looking at one stat, even as sophisticated and comprehensive a stat as WARP3.

Neither am I, but I think it shows that they're at least much closer than you original thought.

McGwire's OPS+ was better than Edgar's

That's because, as you know, OPS+ undervalues OBP. McGwire's EqA is .335, basically the same as Edgar's. Edgar had 450 more PA than McGwire, and thus more offensive value.

Yeah, I don't understand how he his time as a DH discounts the runs he earned in the field. The DH is a position which needs to be filled. If he wasn't there, the M's would have had to put someone else into that spot. If he was better than that person, he earned them those runs. Defensively, he was average for his position while at DH, like everyone else, he contributed at replacement level=0 runs.

That's a significant difference, but who says Thomas should get a free pass?
Thomas should get a free pass.

I do agree that having a guy as a full-time DH does limit the team as a whole.

OTOH, I think one reason why Edgar was put at DH is that he was such a great hitter, they wanted to be sure that he didn't get hurt. So his good hitting cost him.

BTW, there has been a little bit of talk in the Seattle press about Edgar possibly playing first base a bit the rest of this season to get him into the lineup more. He said he was open to the idea, but he hadn't been approached by management. I hope that they don't play him afield for one reason. I'm afraid that if he flubs one play, that will be a clip that's shown in any future Edgar career highlights video with some comment about his lack of contribution in the field. IMHO, that could even possibly be enough to sway some future HOF voters who never saw him with the leather in his third baseman days, when he was much more than adequate.