I can't help but wonder if Ringolsby's vote is the modern equivalent of Phil Rizzuto's HoF boosters.

Rizzuto, Bill James wrote in The Politics of Glory/Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?, came to symbolize inside baseball, a taste appreciated only by the game's connoisseurs.

Let the unwashed masses tout Vern Stephens and his .290-39-159 season of '49. We know Rizzuto deserved his 2nd-place finish in MVP balloting that same year despite going .275-5-65.

"We know Rizzuto deserved his 2nd-place finish in MVP balloting that same year despite going .275-5-65."

You know, its not as bad as James makes it seem. Rizutto had a special year with the glove that year (according to Bpro). He didn't deserve to be second, but he was probably worth a legitimate 9th or 10th place finish.

Concepcion, Morris, and Lee Smith over Boggs and Blyleven. Thats it, Rongolsby is a complete idiot. He is a nimcompoop. I nitwit, and thats a nit without nary of wit.

People are in love with RBIs because you can get them directly. You hit the ball, 10 seconds later, runs score.

Runs scored (except as a result of homeruns or, I suppose, stealing home) are always reliant on other players helping you.

Why the obvious reverse of this isn't understood (you can't drive in a run if there's no one on base), I will never get.

I guess one explanation is that there's no "pressure" to get on base. It's not clutch to walk leading off an inning. However, if you're up with people on base, it's perceived as a much more high pressure situation. Drive them in or no runs will score.

I think this stems from the desire to condense a series of events to one pivotal moment. Wade Boggs singling is just the prelude to Jim Rice DRIVING IN A RUN. Any schlub could be the one on base. It's Jim Rice who's coming through in the clutch to score a run.

Does that make sense?

Well, it doesn't make sense. But, is that an interpretation of why people love RBIs that makes sense?

You know, its not as bad as James makes it seem. Rizutto had a special year with the glove that year (according to Bpro). He didn't deserve to be second, but he was probably worth a legitimate 9th or 10th place finish.
How was Stephens defensively?
(I'd look it up myself, but gift giving is in effect. [A night early, because some family members have work tomorrow.])

"How was Stephens defensively?"

According to Bpro, which is suspect, Stephens was 6 runs above average. Rizzuto was 16 runs, so he gains a win on defense. Park effects narrow the gap a little bit more. It's still a 2.5 win difference or so, which is huge. But Rizzuto was a very good player that year.

What I want to know is what has Tracy been doing with the company expense account and the plane tickets and the hotel rooms all these years. Who's been doing the post-game player interviews, writing up the account of the game, trying to find the angle on the rookie phenom each spring -- all of that???

Because it is patently obvious that he has not been following baseball for the last 25 years! No one who has been following baseball for the last quarter-century could possibly believe that Dave Concepcion is more qualified for the Hall of Fame than Wade Boggs. It is just literally impossible.

So we're onto you, TR. Where have you been all those years? I mean, we've suspected from some of your prior . . . "wisdom" that maybe you weren't all that up on the game. But this cinches it. You can't be that dumb that if you HAD been following baseball all this time, you'd vote for Concepcion and not Boggs. NO ONE is that dumb.

So the only explanation is that you are a fraud. (Cue Jay Mariotti . . . .) The only remaining question is what you've been doing when you were supposed to be covering baseball. Of course, there aren't all that many possibilities. I mean, how many choices does a man have when he has his head crammed completely up his ass for his entire adult life?

See, this is why nobody gets 100%.

Hard to believe. Over 5% of the voters voted against Willie Mays. WILLIE MAYS.

Thank you, Sam. It needed to be said. We rag on sportswriters so much around here that sometimes we forget just how much some of them really, really, really suck.

My respect for J#1F increases day after day, he's not just defending the Captain anymore, he's defending all Yankee SS. If you have something bad to say about Alvaro Espinoza, Ruben Amaro or Mike Milosevich, J#1F will be there to defend him!

FWIW, Stephens finished seventh in the MVP voting of'49.

Hey, at least he didn't vote for Enzo Hernandez.

"If you have something bad to say about Alvaro Espinoza, Ruben Amaro or Mike Milosevich, J#1F will be there to defend him!"

Where the hell did you come up with the name Mike Milosevich??? Wow, I'm impressed, I had to look him. Anyways, I grew up listening to Scooter, and I yearn for his voice everytime I hear "I'm Micheal Kay and I'm joined by Jim Kaat" at the beginning of a Yankee game. I have to defend him.

"FWIW, Stephens finished seventh in the MVP voting of'49."

What happened to Stevens, he fell of a cliff at 30 and he's still a borderline HoFer. He was still productive for a SS even after his 30 decline. Why did he stop playing?

And looking at the MVP voting, thats something, top 7 on Boston or New York. What a year too, I read "Summer of 49", and looking at the numbers, man, thats just an amazing year for those two teams.

J#1F: Consider knowing who Mike Milosevich is part of my inner Repoz, which emerges very, very occasionally to confuse and baffle

I can understand the argument for leaving Boggs out of the HOF, if one believes in a real small HOF. But anyone who includes Concepcion and Morris on their ballot has a super-sized concept of Cooperstown.

We have to remember, though, that sometimes when writers publish their ballots they're just looking to get a rise out of people. So long as he's generating letters-to-the-editor, his bosses know that people are reading what he writes. In the end, he doesn't need people to respect his work, he just needs proof that his audience reads his work.

inner Repoz

We might yet see the "inner Repoz"...as the wife is still drunkoingly holding party court in the kitchen with a cork screw as a prop.

I suppose I might have to tirelessly defend this off the cuff statement, but I think Lee Smith has very similar value to Gossage. On top of that, I think both are borderline and not HOF worthy (I guess this second statement won't upset too many).
Wilhelm is the only reliever I feel that needs to be in the HOF. I think Rivera deserves serious, serious bonus points for his beautiful postseason success, and I'd have to grudgingly allow him into the HOF as well. But nobody else.

We might yet see the "inner Repoz"...as the wife is still drunkoingly holding party court in the kitchen with a cork screw as a prop.

Maybe I'm being stupid, but that sentence sounds like you're drunk as well. All I gather is your wife is in the kitchen, and you're making a sexual innuendo. Sounds good to me.

I do find it interesting too how RBI are the stats writers and fans love even though it took decades to get accepted. People are always calling into radio stations saying their team needs someone to "drive runners in"..never mentioning whether or not runners are even on base to drive in. In the summer of 1998 supposedly intellignet Met fans kept booing Mike Piazza for not driving in runners in his first season..failing to notice he was hitting over .300 on those few occasions the Mets had runners onv=base.
I guess after the MVP election of Zoilo Versalles (which was deserved, in line with previous up-the-middle-MVPs like Rizzuto, Groat and Fox) writers began to look at lot more at RBI totals for MVP balloting. I can't say that I remember any specific writer/broadcaster championing this... I guess whoever it was who came up with the three categories for Triple Crown winners and I have no idea who did that..Ford Frick? Fred Lieb? It probably took a lot longer to get more attention paid to RBI for HOF..batting average reigned supreme for years (different pool of voters?? You do have 10 years to get HOF ballot and stay until death to you part this mortal coil). I guees that since Boggs is getting resistance from writers like Ringsloby and Bill Conlin (he will probably still make it) we can see how BA is falling...20 years ago it would be a no-brainer.
Why do people love to drool so much about Dave Concepcion and not Bert Campaneris?? I guess the Big Red Machinists do a better job of self promotion that the Oakland A's who won more World Series and beat the Reds in 1972 without Reggie Jaqckson (to be fair Jackson, Hunter and Fingers are in but not Dick Williams).
And while it is surprising that 22 people didn't vote for Mays..that is pretty typical of the time. Mays got a higher percentage of votes than Mantle did 5 years earlier and Yogi Berra didn't go in the first year at all. At the time it was widely assumed Early Wynn was the last 300 game winner ever (players wouldn't play as long..making $100,000 dukks the appetitte too quickly) and he waited 4 years,

I suppose I might have to tirelessly defend this off the cuff statement

I think that's half the fun of being here, saying something without really thinking it through and then defendning it to the death

I think that's half the fun of being here, saying something without really thinking it through and then defendning it to the death

When I say something stupid off the cuff, I tend to ignore the responses if they're bad. Ignorance is bliss!

What happened to Stevens, he fell of a cliff at 30 and he's still a borderline HoFer. He was still productive for a SS even after his 30 decline. Why did he stop playing?

Stephens had a reputation (very possibly undeserved) as a hard drinker, and so the supposition has often been made that he just kind of let himself go after his spectacular 1949-50 seasons. The things I've read in more recent years (James, and Armour & Leavitt, IIRC) say it's nothing so salacious as that: Stephens just got hurt, with back trouble in 1951 and knee trouble in 1952, turning him from a superstar shortstop into a platoon-caliber third baseman within a couple of years.

His last game in the majors was June 30, 1955. From there he went to the Seattle Rainiers of the PCL, where he hit .338 with 7 homers in 52 games and 160 at-bats over the remainder of '55, and .266 with 6 homers in 73 games and 188 at-bats as a backup 3B-1B in 1956.

His death at age 48 was the result of a heart attack sufferred on the golf course.

His death at age 48 was the result of a heart attack sufferred on the golf course.

Just like Bing Crosby!

*speaking as a bitter ex-journalism major, so excuse me all [good] journos who read this board*

It's moments like this that make you wonder that the only people who are sportswriters are people too dumb to get a job which doesn't have shitty pay and even worse hours.

Thanks for the info Steve, sounds like a sad story.

Howard Johnson's rapid decline reminds me somewhat of Vern Stephens. HoJo was another 3B/SS who had several seasons of brilliance and then fell apart. After finishing 5th in MVP voting in 1991, Johnson completely lost all of his power the following year at the age of 31. IIRC, Johnson never fully recovered from a broken wrist in the middle of the 1992 season and may have also struggled with back problems.

HoJo used to a thing in the batter's box where he'd step out and stretch his neck and upper back with his bat behind his head. I tried immitating it once in Little League and got yelled at by the coach for stepping out of the box.