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Sunday, February 13, 2005

TBO Sports: Is This Another ``Ball Four’’? No Way, Jose

Let’s go get ‘em and then pound some Winstrol!

Jim Bouton.....I don’t like being the same category as Jose Canseco. That’s it. I don’t even want to be in the same paragraph with him ... I’d be happy to talk to you about almost anything else. There’s hardly a thing I don’t have an opinion on.

and more.....Not that we wouldn’t have taken steroids, had they been available. We would have taken any advantage. But amphetamines allowed players with hangovers to play up their potential. Not play above their natural ability.

Repoz Posted: February 13, 2005 at 06:57 AM | 20 comment(s)
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   1. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch)  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 09:16 AM (#1143015)
I disagree with Bouton on the idea that amphetamines don't help you play above your natural potential. One of their athletic benefits is an extremely intense focus and improved hand-eye coordination that could definitely help a player play above his potential. And someone should go tell Arnold Schwarzenegger, Frank Zane, or Dave Draper that steroids weren't available in the '70s. They'd likely be surprised to hear it.
   2. Russ  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 09:34 AM (#1143022)
I'd guess that the old-school thinking on "muscle-mass is bad for hitting" was much bigger impact on the lack of use of steroids than availability. That's why players didn't use them, I'd guess...
   3. shoomee  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 10:43 AM (#1143039)
Were weight lifters the first athletes to use steroids? Last year Steve Jacobsen of "Newsday" wrote an article saying that Al Oerter, a discus thrower in 4 Olympics, told him at a 1972 Olympic team meeting that one coach said..don't use steroids, they are a placebo, they do nothing for you. The weightlifters were in the back of the room, rolling on the floor laughing and showing each other before-and-after steroid pictures.
I think Wilt Chamberlain used to talk about using weights later in his career although Chamberlain was big and strong (and fast before rupturing his achilles in 1969) he played guard as a Harlem Globetrotter part as publicity gimmick but also partly because he was good moving the ball up court. Hank Stram was interested in him as a tight end and there was even talk of a Chamberlain-Muhammad Ali fight..again part gimmick but there were some boxing people who thought being big and strong and having a large reach would give Ali problems.
But I don't think any ballplayer really endorsed weightlifting between Honus Wagner and Brian Downing. There was always a feeling of getting too muscle bound. baseball is a game of tradition. Why do managers and coaches like 78 year old 400 pound Don Zimmer wear uniforms? Because they always have.
   4. Riki Tiki Javy Lopez  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 12:19 PM (#1143109)
But amphetamines allowed players with hangovers to play up their potential. Not play above their natural ability.

And it allowed players who weren't hung over to......??
   5. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch)  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 12:21 PM (#1143113)
No, coaches wear uniforms because there's a rule on the books stating that you must wear a uniform to get on the field during a game. That's also why managers wear them. If you're not wearing a uniform, you have to send someone else out to talk to the pitcher, runner, etc.
   6. shoomee  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 12:42 PM (#1143140)
Yes I know there is a rule but why? No other sport has coaches in uniform. I am not saying baseball HAS to get rid of the uniforms but it does seem strange. Of course baseball does use tradition a lot.. several years ago ESPN used a scratchy film of an actor pretending to be Ty Cobb. Has NFL ever used or would use someone imitating Red Grange? Would the NBA use anyone from that era (I am weak on this, maybe some early teams like NY Celtic or Harlem Rens?). I guess NHL might with Eddie Shore (Old time hockey) or Maurice Richard.
Granted managers/pitching coaches do go on the field (to paraphrase Bobby V why only pitchers..not to hitters?) but do you really need a uniform on to do this?
There is an interesting part in Bill James Historical Abstract on how Sam Reich, the lawyer brother of agent Tom Reich, once went thru a standard pre-1975 contract twice looking for the famous reserve clause. He couldn't find it, Tom pointed out it was a one sentence thing, Sam the Lawyer had assumed it would be a whole detailed lengthy statement. Maybe it would have been upheld if someone in MLB had drawn a more rigorous statement but since The Reserve Clause had been around since 1880s teams assumed the courts would uphold it "Because we always did it this way". James has also talked about how when he started he naively assumed baseball people would immediately say "oh wow, someone has done the reasearch, now we know what to do," Instead it was largely (not always) greeted with silence, ridicule, twisting of facts, personal attacks (hi there Michael Kay) and ignored for a new generation to pick up.
   7. The definitely immoral Eric Enders  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 02:18 PM (#1143218)
Managers and coaches wearing uniforms is a remnant of the pre-1910 era when almost all managers were player-managers. The player-managers fell by the wayside but nobody ever bothered to change the custom.
   8. RB in NYC (Now with Resolutions!)  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 02:25 PM (#1143220)
There is an interesting part in Bill James Historical Abstract on how Sam Reich, the lawyer brother of agent Tom Reich, once went thru a standard pre-1975 contract twice looking for the famous reserve clause. He couldn't find it, Tom pointed out it was a one sentence thing, Sam the Lawyer had assumed it would be a whole detailed lengthy statement.

Interesting, in Ball Four Jim Bouton very clearly states that it is not just one sentence
   9. Bob T  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 02:35 PM (#1143231)
The SABR-L listserv had a thread about why managers and coaches wear uniforms. But there wasn't a consensus.

The best theory I thought was that it used to be not uncommon for managers to also work as a third base coach. So it looked better for him to be in uniform. Someone said that when John McGraw was managing the Giants, he would wear civvies more often later in his career when he knew he wouldn't or couldn't go out on the field.

The coaches wearing uniforms doesn't bother me. Baseball uniforms aren't unusual clothes compared to football, basketball, hockey, or soccer uniforms.

So if you don't want to see Don Zimmer in a D-Rays uniform, would you rather see him dressed in a jacket and tie all the time?
   10. JMM  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 02:58 PM (#1143258)
Baseball uniforms aren't unusual clothes compared to football, basketball, hockey, or soccer uniforms.

Football or hockey, no. Basketball and soccer uniforms though look like pretty normal summer clothing.
   11. thedad01  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 03:06 PM (#1143267)
Two thoughts:

Bouton's comment that amphetamines were used to only play up to par sounds a great deal like today's comment that using steroids doesn't help to hit a baseball - theoretically true but practically false.

Second, the notion that coaches/managers wearing a uniform is easily remedied by baseball with the strike of a pen. Actually, I see many managers skirting the issue by wearing either the batting practice jersey or a warmup jacket over what is obviously not the uniform top.
   12. The definitely immoral Eric Enders  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 03:14 PM (#1143285)
Another thing is that baseball managers and coaches actually do play baseball on game days -- hitting fungoes, pitching BP and the like. Which basketball and football coaches do not.
   13. Bob Dernier Cri  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 03:14 PM (#1143286)
wearing either the batting practice jersey or a warmup jacket over what is obviously not the uniform top

Burt Shotton wore street clothes in the dugout in the late 1940s, with a team jacket over them. Click here to see the Kindly One's usual appearance.

I think managers today could dress as Shotton did, but -- misguided or not -- they think the full uniform is way cooler.
   14. Squash  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 03:17 PM (#1143293)
There's more than a bit of old fart-ism in Bouton's statement: sure, we cheated, but we didn't cheat as badly as these guys cheat today.

I guess it can happen to anyone.
   15. The definitely immoral Eric Enders  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 03:22 PM (#1143298)
One of my favorite baseball misconceptions is that Connie Mack was the last manager to wear street clothes.

Actually, he might have been, though. It depends on which game ended sooner on Oct. 1, 1950: the Dodgers-Phils or A's-Senators.
   16. The definitely immoral Eric Enders  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 03:38 PM (#1143316)
Answering my own question via Proquest...

Athletics game started at 1:55 p.m. and lasted 2 hours, 5 minutes. Dodger game started at 2:00 p.m. and lasted 2 hours, 35 minutes.

So the last baseball manager to wear street clothes in the dugout was Kindly Old Burt Shotton.
   17. Bob T  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 03:53 PM (#1143334)
So soccer coaches should wear the shin guards over the long socks too?

Soccer referees dress like players, but soccer coaches don't go out on the field, so there really isn't a need for them to dress in shorts.

Do you really want to see Bruce Arena in a U.S. National team kit?
   18. Walt Davis  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 04:06 PM (#1143354)
Do you really want to see Bruce Arena in a U.S. National team kit?

Would you have wanted to see Red Auerbach in a basketball uni smoking a cigar?

The reason that baseball managers have to wear uniforms is so that when they go out to talk to the pitcher, the pitcher (who is either hungover or jonesing for his next hit of speed) might at least recognize that this is someone from his own team rather than some guy out of the stands.

Or at least I think that would be Jim Bouton's reply. :-)
   19. Superunknown Gary Geiger Counter  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 06:36 PM (#1143580)
Second, the notion that coaches/managers wearing a uniform is easily remedied by baseball with the strike of a pen. Actually, I see many managers skirting the issue by wearing either the batting practice jersey or a warmup jacket over what is obviously not the uniform top.p/i]

Terry Francona says hi; while wearing his nighshirt.
   20. jmac66  Posted: February 13, 2005 at 08:05 PM (#1143688)
So the last baseball manager to wear street clothes in the dugout was Kindly Old Burt Shotton.

I'm not sure if it was KOBS--in Charlie Einstein's book "Willie's Time" he claims (in a one-sentence throwaway) that Tom Sheehan wore street clothes while managing the Giants the second half of 1960.

I've never seen another reference to that, however
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