I always knew Felipe Alou was insane, but this proves it. If he honestly thinks that Bob Melvin is walking Bonds because he doesn't want to see him break the home run record, then he is certifiable and should only be allowed to use dull scissors.

Uh, the speaker was Moises, not Felipe. Does this mean you'll be revising your sanity test?

Uh, the speaker was Moises, not Felipe. Does this mean you'll be revising your sanity test?

Whoops. And I guess we all knew Moises was insane the moment he started peeing on his hands. So all is right with the world.

I still think Felipe might be bonkers, too.

I don't believe a word of this either, but some of the intentional walks Bonds has got this season have been ridiculous. Especially when he was slumpingin the first three weeks of the season.

I think the comments Moises made pass his urination routine on the stupidest things hes ever done in baseball.

I think some of the walking is probably done because managers got used to walking Bonds in every conceivable situation starting around 2001. And we all know that managers are creatures of habit, particularly if they can remember a good outcome (like walking Barry => Giants loss).

Which is to say, I think Moises is insane as well, but then I knew that already. At least he didn't say that it's just the white pitchers and managers walking Bonds while the black ones are willing to pitch to him.

As locked in as Moises is, he just can't believe the irrational IBBs to get to him. So, he's stretching his mind to find a rationale.

I don't know that the reasoning of a man who pees on his hands matters much to me.

Why?

What's logically bad about peeing on your hands?

Brain-dead white people. I guess you can't piss your way off the mainland.

<...>

I don't think the majority of motivation for managers are doing it to prevent the HR mark--UCCF's reasoning is probably more of a factor.

I'm just curious why it's insane to even pose a different hypothesis. What Alou is describing has happened multiple times when dealing with major milestones or records. It might not be at play now, but it's "insane" to write it off outright.

What's logically bad about peeing on your hands?

What's logicallly good about it? If there isn't any logic either for or against it, I'm going to be in the camp that doesn't have pee on their hands.

What Alou is describing has happened multiple times when dealing with major milestones or records.

The only example I can think of is the Browns letting Lajoie win the batting title. But the key difference is that that was in a meaningless season-ending game.

I can't think of a single example of teams willingly going against the percentages in games that have meaning just to prevent a player from reaching a record. The converse, like Brett Favre and Michael Strahan, has happened, but this is reaching.

letting Lajoie win the batting title.

Er, trying to let Lajoie win, that is.

I'm just curious why it's insane to even pose a different hypothesis. What Alou is describing has happened multiple times when dealing with major milestones or records. It might not be at play now, but it's "insane" to write it off outright.

In april? The only way to prevent Bonds reaching 714 is to give him a HBP in every plate appearance, that might shut him down.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories and all that. But Moises isn't insane. There's a legitimate question as to why Melvin walked Bonds on Friday. The simple answer is probably that Melvin is an idiot, but it would be even more controversial if he said that. Most of the IBBs to Bonds have made some kind of sense with some kind of twisted logic. But that's now at least the second time this season that an opposing manager has walked Bonds absolutely indefensibly.

They're not trying to stop Barry getting the record. But I understand why it makes Alou wonder.

What's logicallly good about it? If there isn't any logic either for or against it, I'm going to be in the camp that doesn't have pee on their hands.

It toughens the hands, and aids Moises in batting without gloves. It's not something I would do, but it's not like there's no logic behind it...

They're not trying to stop Barry getting the record. But I understand why it makes Alou wonder.

I disagree. That would be like a guy wearing glasses with a verifiably good business plan going to a VC firm and being turned down. It may seem mystifying, and in fact, the VC firm may be idiots, but if that guy walks out of there saying that he wonders if they didn't give him the money because they don't like guys who wear glasses (absent any evidence to the contrary, which is required for such an extraordinary proposition), he's at least temporarily insane.

I can't think of a single example of teams willingly going against the percentages in games that have meaning just to prevent a player from reaching a record.

See teh Repoz reference? When Hank Greenberg approached reaching Ruth's 60 HR mark, he got walked a lot.

Perhaps we can compromise and agree that Bob Melvin is insane.

I disagree. That would be like a guy wearing glasses with a verifiably good business plan going to a VC firm and being turned down. It may seem mystifying, and in fact, the VC firm may be idiots, but if that guy walks out of there saying that he wonders if they didn't give him the money because they don't like guys who wear glasses (absent any evidence to the contrary, which is required for such an extraordinary proposition), he's at least temporarily insane.

That's an awesome analogy. You forgot to add that the guy was easily the best candidate (no reason to not hire/walk the hitter), and there were historical example of firms not hiring "guys with glasses".

Did you forget about Oh walking guys to defend his own record?

It's a human possibility and so it's not "crazy" to suggest it.

Against Dimaggio wasn't there the pitcher who struck him out in the first at bat and then attempted to unintenionally intentionally walk the rest of the night to end the streak?

You forgot to add that the guy was easily the best candidate (no reason to not hire/walk the hitter)

I did say that he had a verifiably good business plan.

, and there were historical example of firms not hiring "guys with glasses".

Extremely, extremely rare ones, from decades ago. And I should amend the original analogy to be a bunch of VCs who turn him down. Much like Against Dimaggio wasn't there the pitcher who struck him out in the first at bat and then attempted to unintenionally intentionally walk the rest of the night to end the streak?, I'm willing to buy that individual pitchers/firms have an irrational or spiteful reasoning behind walking Barry/not funding, but I think it's ridiculous to say that entire teams and leagues are out to get someone.

Did you forget about Oh walking guys to defend his own record?

That's defending his OWN record. Bob Melvin has little to no vested interest in who holds the home run record. Neither does Grady Little. Or Bobby Cox. Or Tony LaRussa. Are you seriously arguing that it's remotely rational to believe that they would walk Barry to keep him from passing Aaron? Or are you suggesting that "insane" is slightly too hyperbolic? If it's the latter, then fine, change my language to read "completely irrational".

Against Dimaggio wasn't there the pitcher who struck him out in the first at bat and then attempted to unintenionally intentionally walk the rest of the night to end the streak?

Also on this, you're neglecting the fact that the pitcher who stops Dimaggio's streak gets personal glory for himself, at least in some small way. Bob Melvin won't forever be "the guy who prevented Barry Bonds from getting home run record."

In 1973, Bowie Kuhn had to issue a statement that pitchers had to pitch Aaron normally because some (I believe one of them was Phil Hennigan) were threatening to groove pitches to Aaron, so they could give up the record home run.

As it turned out, Al Downing was not particularly happy about giving up #715 as Aaron's homer put the Braves ahead. And Al Downing is pretty grouchy anyway.

I'm wondering whether Melvin would rather be seen as stupid or as insane. I think it's fair to give him a say in all this.

letting Lajoie win the batting title.

Er, trying to let Lajoie win, that is.

I've mentioned this before in the context of the * discussions.

While MLB officially recognizes Cobb as having won the 1910 batting championship, it's carrying far less wieght these days.

The Lahman database, baseball-reference and retrosheet (among others) all recognize Lajoie as having the highest BA in the AL. The Stats Sourcebook has an interesting compromise. Lists Cobb as having won the title with a .383 BA and Lajoie is second with a .384

MLB's version of events has AL batters with two more hits than AL pitchers allowed.

It's amazingly self-involved for the Giants to think that other teams care more about Bonds' records than their own W-L records.

Also, if Oh really did walk guys to protect his own record that's incredibly embarassing.

If peeing on my hands would take two strokes off my golf handicap, I'd probably do it.

Oh did. How much of it was an 'Oh' thing versus a 'gaijin' thing is in question.

If peeing on my hands would take two strokes off my golf handicap, I'd probably do it.

If peeing on my hands could get me out of playing golf, I would do it. Oh wait, I do it anyway; and I don't play golf. Hey, it's working!

Oh did. How much of it was an 'Oh' thing versus a 'gaijin' thing is in question.

Right, in fact other teams walked foreign players to protect the record.

Also, is it insane to think Alou could partially right, and it might not be primarily a racial issue--people might just hate Bonds...

I mean, Bob Brenly did manage in the major leagues right? As long as that is a historical fact, I think it's "insane" to not think that managers might think it's more important to "do the right thing (whatever that means)" than to win ballgames...

Hmm...sorry about the awesome sentence construction...

I'm no fan of Bonds but I would never ever ever want my team to go away from its optimal strategy as part of some inane strategy to put of his record breaking by one more plate appearance. I mean, yes, a manager would have to be insane to do that no matter how strong their (racially-induced or not) hate for Bonds is.

Basically, managers overuse the intentional walk in general. In the same way that many teams play for the small inning too often, managers risk the big inning by trying to prevent the small inning too often.

Maybe managers, unlike primates, weren't overreacting to Bonds slow offensive start and reading too much into it.

btw, more shocking even that Bob Brenly managing a team is that Steve Phillips was ever the GM of a team. The more I hear that man talk the more I'm convinced that he's the stupidest man alive.

Good points, Cross. But aren't those arguments about how it is illogical to walk Bonds for non-game related reasons, and arguments FOR Alou being perfectly reasonable to think a current manager might be doing so?

Let's keep in mind that Alou was angry at Steve Stone for saying on air that Oswalt was pitching well agaisnt the Cubs.

Brain-dead white people.

E-X: Is there a reason you've become increasingly race-baiting?

Re walking Bonds. Haven't teams been walking Bonds in scads for years now? Were they protecting the records then?

E-X: Is there a reason you've become increasingly race-baiting?

I thought that was fairly obvious satire/sarcasm.

Haven't teams been walking Bonds in scads for years now? Were they protecting the records then?

Yes, and of course not, but...

Bonds wasn't hitting .250 then, nor slugging .530. And even in 2001-4 it was unusual (though amazingly not unheard of) to walk him in the 8th inning of a 7-2 game.

What obviously puzzled Alou, who hasn't really seen the strange pattern of IBBs Bonds is used to receiving, is that the walk made no baseball sense at all. He therefore came up with a different reason. His suggestion is not very likely, but then neither are the ones that Melvin was "stupid" or "insane". Didn't someone ask Melvin this in the postgame interviews? Didn't the AZ papers report it?

But aren't those arguments about how it is illogical to walk Bonds for non-game related reasons, and arguments FOR Alou being perfectly reasonable to think a current manager might be doing so?

I'm not following, how does it make Alou's suggestion more reasonable?

I'll admit it is too strong to call Alou's suggestion "insane" but I'm guessing he feels a little insulted by how often Bonds is walked to get to him and this has more to do with that.

On several occasions, the Yankees kept Gehrig's consecutive games streak going by putting him in the starting lineup, then pulling him in the second inning.

Not quite in the same category, but statistical tomfoolery nonetheless, was Reggie Jackson's .300 average in 1980. On the last day of the season, Jackson got a hit in his first at-bat, raising his average to .2996, then left the game. He'd never hit .300 and it mattered to him.

E-X: Is there a reason you've become increasingly race-baiting?


I thought that was fairly obvious satire/sarcasm.

Me too. I've never heard the phrase attached to an ethnic group except in the SF radio situation, so I assumed that everyone would pick up on it immediately.

I also added sarcasm marks below it as an added guide, just in case. I suppose we'll just have to chalk it up to the limitations of the internet.


I'm not following, how does it make Alou's suggestion more reasonable?

I'll admit it is too strong to call Alou's suggestion "insane" but I'm guessing he feels a little insulted by how often Bonds is walked to get to him and this has more to do with that.

I would agree with Mefisto--I think that Melvin's behavior is pretty inexplicable, and that Alou's suggestion attempted to explain the inexplicable.

It's pretty hard to explain the inexplicable, so Alou's hypothesis is not too much crazier than any other.

Alou sounds like he's a real outside the box thinker and like others in that category has an active imagination. Maybe he's a little paranoid. I don't think we need to attach a value judgement to that--he's had different experiences than a lot of us and his reactions seem like pretty natural
human ones.

Right, in fact other teams walked foreign players to protect the record.

Sources?

AFAIK, Bass was denied specifically by the Giants. I know of no other teams that walked him, although it's been sometime since I read "You Gotta Have Wa".

Cabrera and Rhodes were both shortchanged by the Hawks (although neither to the point Bonds was towards the end in 2001), but they got plenty of chances from the other teams. IIRC, the Orix Blue Wave in particular challenged Rhodes, but he admitted himself that he was thinking about the record too much and overswinging.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/story?page=phonyrecords-030225

Sadaharu Oh, Japan's Babe Ruth, set the Japanese pro baseball record of 55 homers in 1964. Since then, two players -- both Americans -- have challenged and probably would have eclipsed his mark . . . if only Oh hadn't take extraordinary measures to protect his record.

In 1985, Randy Bass went into the final series of the season with 54 homers. But the opposing Tokyo Giants, managed by Sadaharu Oh, didn't allow Bass' bat to get anywhere near a baseball. They intentionally walked Bass in every at bat in the final two games, and he ended the season one shy of the record.

In 2001, it looked like a rerun. Tuffy Rhodes managed to tie Oh's mark, hitting 55 for the Kintetsu Buffaloes, but then faced another Oh-managed team that refused to give him anything to hit. Oh's pitching coach, Yoshiharu Wakana, admitted, "I didn't want a foreigner to break the record."

In 2002, another repeat -- this time with Alex Cabrera, who also hit 55 with plenty of time left in the season. He'd remain at 55 -- and Oh would remain in the record book. "They didn't want me to get the record," Cabrera said. "The last 20 at-bats of the season, I think I only saw one strike. All records are for the Japanese."

Cabrera's account disputed here:
http://japanesebaseball.com/forum/thread.jsp?forum=17&thread=1629&start=30&msRange=15

From http://www.easterwood.org/hmmn/?p=435:
Did Bass see any pitches to hit during that final series of the year? Not a chance. In fact, in 9 plate appearances, he was walked 6 times. In the final game of the year, Bass was walked all four times he came up to the plate (though none of them were official “intentional” walks). At one point, with pitches being thrown so far out of the strikezone that it was as clear as day what was happening, Bass turned his bat upside down is disgust. The story goes that Giants’ pitchers had been warned that they would be fined if they gave Bass any pitches to hit. Who’s to say whether Bass would have been able to homer even had he had a decent chance to swing the bat. (I feel compelled to add, however, that Oh set the record in a 140-game season, while Bass was trying to break it in a 130-game season).

From Wikipedia:
Reacting to treatment of Bass in 1985, Japanese baseball commissioner Hiromori Kawashima termed Oh's team's behavior "completely divorced from the essence of...fair play."

More details at:
http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200604060117.html
and
http://www.bigempire.com/sake/cabrera.html

The only way to prevent Bonds reaching 714 is to give him a HBP in every plate appearance, that might shut him down.

This was the morally appropriate solution ever since Bonds started wearing that humongous elbow armor and should continue on grounds of principle. If any pitcher cared about the game, they'd go Bob Gibson on Bonds at every opportunity.

And to pre-empt the paranoid: No, 714 doesnt matter to me, E-X, because it's a white man's record. It only matters to me to the extent that it matters to the cheating bastard Bonds. What does matter to me is 755, which was honestly achieved by, you know, a black man. If Bonds hits 715, it's merely a sad pathetic occasion like any other post '98 HR he's hit. When he hits 756 is when it's an extravagant atrocity and when, if something's not done about it, I quit caring about baseball.

BTW, pissing on your hands does not make them tougher. If anything, it makes them softer. But for that to happen, you have to let your hands soak in piss, which I imagine Moises wasn't doing.

On several occasions, the Yankees kept Gehrig's consecutive games streak going by putting him in the starting lineup, then pulling him in the second inning.

There, fixed it for you.

On several occasions, the Yankees kept Gehrig's consecutive games streak going by putting him in the starting lineup, then pulling him in the second inning.

Not quite in the same category, but statistical tomfoolery nonetheless, was Reggie Jackson's .300 average in 1980. On the last day of the season, Jackson got a hit in his first at-bat, raising his average to .2996, then left the game. He'd never hit .300 and it mattered to him.

And the Willie Wilso/Robin Yount 1982 batting title thing.

Earlier "Bonds walking" threads have hypothesized that opposing managers wanted to make Bonds run the bases on his bum knee. If there is ever a time I give him a free pass and make him run, it's in the 8th inning of a 5-run ball game.

The Giants pinch ran for him anyways.

This was the morally appropriate solution ever since Bonds started wearing that humongous elbow armor and should continue on grounds of principle. If any pitcher cared about the game, they'd go Bob Gibson on Bonds at every opportunity.

I guess that's "morally appropriate" if you're a sadist.

And to pre-empt the paranoid: No, 714 doesnt matter to me, E-X, because it's a white man's record. It only matters to me to the extent that it matters to the cheating bastard Bonds. What does matter to me is 755, which was honestly achieved by, you know, a black man. If Bonds hits 715, it's merely a sad pathetic occasion like any other post '98 HR he's hit. When he hits 756 is when it's an extravagant atrocity and when, if something's not done about it, I quit caring about baseball.

To respond to the ########, (RETARDO), I think you may be directing this towards me. I may just be paranoid, but it was the inclusion of my name in the sentence that set me off.

Why do you insist on dragging my name into topics to support your need to have a paranoid minority bogeyman? All I have talked about in this thread is the characterization of Alou. I basically agree with your perspective on 714 and 756.

The only difference is that while I hope Aaron retains the record, I think I would still get excited at the spectacle of Bonds breaking the record. This isn't because I hate baseball, it's because I love it.

Why do you insist on dragging my name into topics to support your need to have a paranoid minority bogeyman?

Because I'm sick and tired of the periodic Bonds defences cobbled together out of some fantasy of a racist witch-hunt, and know that at any given momemt, you're likely to renew the argument.

CHEATER. Abominable ####### sociopathic cheater. Period. I dont care if he's purple green black white or orange. HE'S A CHEATER.

Well Al now the question is would we feel the same way about Beary Bonds and his stereos if he was black white or purple. Now as you know Al we have lots of ball players of color I am white and German Die is black and Fredy Garcia is tan and little Gucci is yellow though Ozzie Guillen says I must say Asian American some times I 4 get. Now I do not care who is those different colors because they are all natural but I do not prefer a purple ball player Al. When I was with the Mount Horeb Mustardseeds we had a third base man who was purple I think he had a condition. He would leaf purple marks on the towels in the motel and purple rings in the bath tub and one time we was plying an away game at Prairie du Chien and it commenced to rain and every time our catcher would throw the ball around the horn it would come back to me looking like a scoop on a blue berry sunday. Take it from me Al black and brown and white is OK but you must look out for purple ball players anyway he only hit .215 and got releashed.

On <i>severalone occasions, the Yankees kept Gehrig's consecutive games streak going by putting him in the starting lineup, then pulling him in the second inning.</i>

OK, this time I really fixed it.

CHEATER. Abominable ####### sociopathic cheater. Period. I dont care if he's purple green black white or orange. HE'S A CHEATER.

OK.





but would you pitch to him?

This was the morally appropriate solution ever since Bonds started wearing that humongous elbow armor and should continue on grounds of principle. If any pitcher cared about the game, they'd go Bob Gibson on Bonds at every opportunity.

Yes. The guard really must go.

BTW, pissing on your hands does not make them tougher. If anything, it makes them softer. But for that to happen, you have to let your hands soak in piss, which I imagine Moises wasn't doing.

I'm glad someone said it. And another thing, it'd be much more clean just to get the ingredient responsible for the claim. If ureic acid is what's supposed to toughen your hands, just order a bottle. There's no need to pee all over yourself.

I don't understand why the elbow guard should go. It's hardly as if Barry dips it in the strike zone in order to get a cheap HBP like Biggio. Bonds has had several surgeries on that elbow. The guard's legit.

I remember Art Howe saying that if A-Rod had made an out against the A's in his first at-bat in the final game of the 2002 season, he would have had his pitchers walk A-Rod the rest of the game so that his average was under .300 for the year. A-Rod got a hit though, to keep his average above .300 for the year, so Art wasn't able to use the strategy.

I don't understand why the elbow guard should go. It's hardly as if Barry dips it in the strike zone in order to get a cheap HBP like Biggio. Bonds has had several surgeries on that elbow. The guard's legit.


Yes he does. He hangs it out over the strike zone, and uses it as protection so that he feels comfortable diving in to get balls away. It's bs. I've seen many pitchers not get the inside call because it's so close to a hitter like bonds (there a number of hitters who wear these monstrosities, and they all need to go) who is able to stand close to the plate because he doesn't have to fear the effect of a wayward inside fastball. Baseball doesn't give people who have other injuries an advantage, so I don't think they should give a free reign to anyone who happens to pay a doctor to say they have an elbow injury.

If ureic acid is what's supposed to toughen your hands, just order a bottle. There's no need to pee all over yourself.

Maybe he's frugal?

When he hits 756 is when it's an extravagant atrocity and when, if something's not done about it, I quit caring about baseball.

Oh, cut it out. Baseball isn't JUST about records. The beauty of baseball has much more to do with laying on your couch on a warm summer afternoon with your favorite cool beverage and watching your favorite team play a game you enjoy than it has to do with who did what and when and how they did it. I agree that Bonds cheats, but I will not go as far as you're suggesting you will.

I don't think they should give a free reign to anyone who happens to pay a doctor to say they have an elbow injury.

"...and while you're at it, Doc, can you give me a nice scar, too, to make it look realistic?"

Baseball doesn't give people who have other injuries an advantage, so I don't think they should give a free reign to anyone who happens to pay a doctor to say they have an elbow injury.

Barry has had elbow problems since he joined the Giants 13 years ago. To suggest he's making it up is f*cking stupid.

No, it's not like all his other joints are giving out or anything like that. Mmm hmm.

but I do not prefer a purple ball player Al. When I was with the Mount Horeb Mustardseeds we had a third base man who was purple I think he had a condition. He would leaf purple marks on the towels in the motel and purple rings in the bath tub and one time we was plying an away game at Prairie du Chien and it commenced to rain and every time our catcher would throw the ball around the horn it would come back to me looking like a scoop on a blue berry sunday. Take it from me Al black and brown and white is OK but you must look out for purple ball players

Whoever Jack Keefe is, I commend you for this. This is seriously funny.

Whoever Jack Keefe is, I commend you for this. This is seriously funny.

I get the feeling some around here tire of Jack Keefe's punditry, but not me. One of these days, when the BTF search function is playing nice, I'll gather all his comments, make them into a little book, and laugh myself to sleep at night.

(And no, I'm not Jack Keefe.)

Jack Keefe is wicked pissa.

Barry has had elbow problems since he joined the Giants 13 years ago. To suggest he's making it up is f*cking stupid.


Sure, maybe he's not making up his elbow problems, but he might be making up the need for a shield on his arm to help them. Also, since you apparently only read what you want to read, I included anyone who wears them, a list which most certainly includes a few frauds.

Because I'm sick and tired of the periodic Bonds defences cobbled together out of some fantasy of a racist witch-hunt, and know that at any given momemt, you're likely to renew the argument.

CHEATER. Abominable ####### sociopathic cheater. Period. I dont care if he's purple green black white or orange. HE'S A CHEATER.

Have you read any posts from me in the last year?

There's nothing sicker than a quasi-liberal who needs to appear moderate and tries to by dragging someone else's name through the mud.

Get over your obsession with me and participate in the discussion we are having.

It might annoy me that I saw you looking at kiddy porn last year, but I don't feel the need to bring it up randomly in threads...

It might annoy me that I saw you looking at kiddy porn last year,

This thread has been duly bookmarked.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but is baseball the only sport where people are actively critisized for wanting to protect themselves from injury? I guess football, but football players are insane.

Hockey is impossible to play if you are worrying about injury...

It might annoy me that I saw you looking at kiddy porn last year

Was that before or after you denied the holocaust and murdered a homeless person?

Was that before or after you denied the holocaust and murdered a homeless person?

Hey! She wasn't homeless, she was itinerant.

Hockey is impossible to play if you are worrying about injury...

Especially if Todd Bertuzzi is on the opposing team. That piece of #### should be in jail.

Obviously you didn't see Vancouver play much this year.

Todd Bertuzzi is about as threatening as David Eckstein.

Gee, I forgot that he was allowed to play hockey again. I hate him.