A-Rod was hit in the back of the shoulder by Aardsma during the previous game, so that pitch wasn't in front of him. YES showed the replays of the Farnsworth pitch to Manny and the Aardsma pitch to A-Rod and the locations were very close.

I don't know what the intent of the respective pitchers was, but I would agree that both were reckless.

I think the overriding issue is that the Sox have always thrown inside against the Yankees. The Yankees have not, but now things have changed.

I hope both sides are more careful in the future.

There is going to be a brawl in a redsox yankee game this year, specificly because the Yankees are throwing high and tight on Manny. This is not an issue of Manny crowing the plate like some hitters (Ortiz, Jeter), but a specific attempt to execute a strategy towards a player that could have serious health consequences.

schilling's right. i had the same thought watching the game ... the warn-both-dugout thing is stupid to begin with, but in this scenario, it's practically asking the red sox to go after somebody. good job by beckett to resist the urge ... you know he wanted to!

Manny's quote is spot on:

We hit one of the best players and I guess they want to send a message and that's what they did," said Ramirez, batting .478 with 14 homers and 38 RBIs in 33 games against the Yankees since 2006. "They've got to back up their players and he did."

That pitch was horseshit.

Pedro and other Red Sox have thrown plenty of horseshit pitches too over the years, but that pitch was absolute horseshit.

YES showed the replays of the Farnsworth pitch to Manny and the Aardsma pitch to A-Rod and the locations were very close.

I have no problem with the teams both reclaiming the inside part of the plate. So, I don't have an issue when someone like Youk gets hit for it and assume thoughtful Yankee fans don't when ARod or Jeter does, either. The Yankees have had more plate-divers than the Sox over the last few years, which should be mentioned whenever someone mentions the history of throwing inside as well. Manny is not one of those guys, obviously, so it's a little different when he's hit for just hitting well as opposed to one of the many plate divers on either team being hit, imo.

It is not true that the location on those two pitches (the one to ARod and the one to Manny) were very close. Farnsworth probably tried to throw it in a similar place and missed, because he pretty much sucks, but let's not misrepresent where it ended up, either...the pitches were 18 inches or more apart in location and that's a big difference.

Just to be clear, throwing at or behind someone's head is not ok. I hope people recognize that brushing back and throwing at or behind someone's head are very different things, too. Last year people were defending a pitch by someone's head as brushing back a plate diver and that's just wrong, imo

Manny had hit 2 home runs in the game. I'm pretty sure Farnsworth was throwing at Manny to send a message. It was pretty obvious. Getting it up around shoulder high in that situation was no coincidence.

It is not true that the location on those two pitches (the one to ARod and the one to Manny) were very close. Farnsworth probably tried to throw it in a similar place and missed, because he pretty much sucks, but let's not misrepresent where it ended up, either...the pitches were 18 inches or more apart in location and that's a big difference.

Just to be clear, throwing at or behind someone's head is not ok. I hope people recognize that brushing back and throwing at or behind someone's head are very different things, too. Last year people were defending a pitch by someone's head as brushing back a plate diver and that's just wrong, imo

My perception after watching the replay is that the pitches were two to three inches apart. I didn't think that was the case until I re-watched it.

I think both teams should be far more careful.

I was more surprised that someone throwing at Manny's face came in a game where he actually ran on his homeruns. As far as i could tell, he didn't stand at the plate and admire them, even on his no-doubt bomb.

Did anyone see Gammons on BB Tonight? Ever the impartial observer, he asked "What's a AAA pitcher doing throwing at Manny Ramirez?" I think that's an exact quote.

I'm not sure Yankee fans would disagree with Gammo's statement. They seem to hate Farnsworth with a holy passion.

It is what it is. Manny didn't seem to care that much.

I don't doubt Farnsworth was trying to brush Manny back, but I don't think he intentionally threw behind him. Does anyone honestly think Farnsworth has the control to string a bowtie in that situation? I certainly don't

If Kapler was still on the team, his next at bat, he would have charged Albaladejo as he was walking behind the mound preparing to pitch, probably. I agree that in the "message" wars Farnsworth was over the top there, but I did like Manny's reaction.

I actually checked out the BronxBanter chatter reaction to the pitch, and as intelligent as they usually seem over there, they were all "YAY FARNSWORTH". Oh well. I wonder what RPYW thought?

This is what Manny said after the game.

"We hit one of the best players and I guess they want to send a message and that's what they did. They've got to back up their players and he did."

Sounds like no one is outraged except Curt Schilling, Peter Gammons and probably whoever he was with in the Sox ownership box.

Seems like a plan to me... take a year and a half establishing a pitcher as having no control, then accidentally let him loose against a player you want out...

Seems like an ugly twist of the Maddux gambit.

Sounds like no one is outraged except Curt Schilling, Peter Gammons and probably whoever he was with in the Sox ownership box.

Bull. This crap never happened when Torre was the manager.

The basis for this is that nitwit Hank Steinbrenner and his faux-toughness approach.

Bull. This crap never happened when Torre was the manager.

And kevin. kevin is outraged too. Joba got a two game suspension for allegedly throwing at Youk, Torre must have been out of town that day.

What baseball needs is for the 25th man to be a reserve outfielder goon type. You wouldn't even need to take Beckett out of the game, just put the goon in the outfield, swap him in when ARod comes to the plate, throw at Arod's head and get ready to rumble.

I don't believe in starting these kinds of things. I do believe in finishing them. What Farnsworth did was completely wrong. Retaliation, with the intent of putting a player on the DL, would have been completely right.

But when was it started? Last year when Joba was ejected? 2004 when they threw at Kenny Lofton's head 3 times in 1 ab? Two nights ago when they hit Arod in the shoulders?

But when was it started? Last year when Joba was ejected? 2004 when they threw at Kenny Lofton's head 3 times in 1 ab? Two nights ago when they hit Arod in the shoulders?

Actually, I think what started it was when you had to bring up the HPB disparity to everyone's attention (with an assist from the borrowers at ESPN).:)

I haven't been this outraged at such chickensht since that Padres player dropped down a bunt to break up Curt's no hitter. This would've never happened in the old days

One of the rare occaisions I have some sympathy for the Yankees... Beckett is probably the most egregious purpose headhunter in baseball right now since Clemens is de facto retired and Vicente Padilla has toned it down. Granted, it's not a weapon he uses much, but after plunking Vlad twice in two games out of four in two years, you begin to wonder.

Farnsworth doesn't have problems hitting guys. Let me restate that, he doesn't have a problem trying to hit guys, he just has a problem actually hitting them. And, as Paul Wilson can attest, the Farns enjoys piledriving guys after he hits them, too.

What baseball needs is for the 25th man to be a reserve outfielder goon type. You wouldn't even need to take Beckett out of the game, just put the goon in the outfield, swap him in when ARod comes to the plate, throw at Arod's head and get ready to rumble.

You mean the baseball equivalent of Donald Brashear? Hopefully without the domestic violence.

2004 when they threw at Kenny Lofton's head 3 times in 1 ab?

Then Lofton elbows Eyechart in the head. Then Lowell "ran into" Cano last year.

Beckett is probably the most egregious purpose headhunter in baseball right now since Clemens is de facto retired and Vicente Padilla has toned it down.

Really? When has Beckett headhunted? Or Clemens? I'm being serious, I don't remember any instances.

EDIT: Maybe I'm crazy, but I assumed Clemens didn't mean to hit Piazza in the head. Hit him, sure. But not in the head.

But when was it started?

When Manny had the audacity to go yard twice in the same game.

Beckett is probably the most egregious purpose headhunter in baseball right now since Clemens is de facto retired and Vicente Padilla has toned it down. Granted, it's not a weapon he uses much

If he doesn't use it much, then he's not the most egregious.

Then Lofton elbows Eyechart in the head. Then Lowell "ran into" Cano last year.

Lofton probably deserved it, but the larger point, is, who "starts" it. Maybe in Farnsworth's mind, he feels ARod getting hit that high the night before deserved retaliation. Who knows, but this stuff goes back a while.

Granted, it's not a weapon he uses much, but after plunking Vlad twice in two games out of four in two years, you begin to wonder.

Did he just hit him or hit him in the head? Are we seriously not acknowledging the difference between hitting somebody and "headhunting?" Worlds apart. I will cede to you that Beckett is a jerk. But drilling somebody in the back, butt, or leg is not the same as throwing up around someone's head. Isn't that obvious?

Btw, the best fight matchup right now is probably Farnsworth vs. Tavarez. Trailer Park Power Brawler vs. Crazy Dominican Deathmatch Expert

Btw, the best fight matchup right now is probably Farnsworth vs. Tavarez. Trailer Park Power Brawler vs. Crazy Dominican Deathmatch Expert

Not that Kyle is Brad Pitt or anything, but that would break one of the crucial rules of any fight, namely to never get into one with someone who has a lot less to lose in the looks department than you do.

hehe. Good one, RB. Funny but true.

Not that Kyle is Brad Pitt or anything, but that would break one of the crucial rules of any fight, namely to never get into one with someone who has a lot less to lose in the looks department than you do.

Then Julian Tavarez is safe as long as Joseph Merrick stays dead.

Whoever it is that said Joba "allegedly" threw at Youk needs to, umm, actually watch some more baseball before they comment in the future on the subject. Wow is that preposterous.

One of the rare occaisions I have some sympathy for the Yankees... Beckett is probably the most egregious purpose headhunter in baseball right now since Clemens is de facto retired and Vicente Padilla has toned it down. Granted, it's not a weapon he uses much, but after plunking Vlad twice in two games out of four in two years, you begin to wonder.

I can't remember one instance of Beckett hitting anyone above the mid-section, or actually even throwing up and in. This statement is simply wrong, and embarrassingly so.

The only time I can remember Beckett retaliating was last September, when he hit Giambi in the hip after Wang put Youkilis out of the game with a HBP.

I mean, you just have to read the comment and see who posted it.

I have yet to see Joba convicted in a court of law. The intent remains "alleged."

Unless you use 'alleged' for every single comment you've made on a player's motivations and intent in all contexts (which, of course, you have not) it is fair to say that is spectacularly hypocritical as an explanation.

Disappointing that you choose to play that game, I think, but your choice.

Really? When has Beckett headhunted? Or Clemens? I'm being serious, I don't remember any instances.

The infamous game where Pedro sent Jeter and Soriano to the hospital... they usually leave the part of the story out where the day before, Clemens is getting shelled by the Red Sox... and after a Big Papi homerun, the next pitch hits Millar right in the head. (The next pitch was a Trot Nixon homerun). Pedro retaliated the next day, since Wakefield was Clemen's opposing pitcher.

And, if not getting embarassed was enough for the Rocket, his post-game comments were mostly veiled threats that he was going to throw at Ortiz next game.

Clemens is a piece of garbage and I'm glad he's out of baseball.

Unless you use 'alleged' for every single comment you've made on a player's motivations and intent in all contexts (which, of course, you have not) it is fair to say that is spectacularly hypocritical as an explanation.

Yeah probably. I sleep ok at night though.

I think you've been reading too much Nieporent, sj.

The infamous game where Pedro sent Jeter and Soriano to the hospital... they usually leave the part of the story out where the day before, Clemens is getting shelled by the Red Sox... and after a Big Papi homerun, the next pitch hits Millar right in the head. (The next pitch was a Trot Nixon homerun). Pedro retaliated the next day, since Wakefield was Clemen's opposing pitcher.

You can say this all you want. The stats make it clear, the Red Sox hit double the number of Yankees from 2000-2004, or whenever I did that tally. Just ask Bill Simmons.

You can say this all you want. The stats make it clear, the Red Sox hit double the number of Yankees from 2000-2004, or whenever I did that tally. Just ask Bill Simmons.

I bet if you take out Wakefield, who is a consistent league leader in hit batsmen, it's probably about even.

I bet if you take out Wakefield, who is a consistent league leader in hit batsmen, I bet it's about even.

Its not.

You can say this all you want. The stats make it clear, the Red Sox hit double the number of Yankees from 2000-2004, or whenever I did that tally.

This is greatly a function of personnel. Some pitchers hit more batters, some batters take more HBP. It's a real tendency of the player.

From 2000-2004, the Yankees hit 264 opposing batters, while the Red Sox hit 402. The Yankees took 352 HBP, the Red Sox 305. You add those together, and they account for almost the entire HBP differential.

Maybe that's because the Red Sox pitchers were a bunch of jerky jerks and the Yankee pitchers love kittens wrapped in babies, but it's not becuase of anything particular going on between the Red Sox and Yankees. The Red Sox were jerky jerks to everyone, and the Yankees served hot tea and warm towels for everyone. Or, if you prefer not to make moral judgments on a characteristic that is not necessarily related to anything moral (Tim Wakefield is consistently high in HBP, for instance), it was just a function of personnel.

Someone who walks as few as in his prime Pedro did hit a lot of batters. Surely many of them were intentional (allegedly).

We have this discussion every year, seemingly.

Yes, Pedro hit batters on purpose, quite a bit. I think that's blindingly obvious. Your point?

What are we talking about here? My point is, it didn't "start" last night, as implied in 19. There is no beginning, there is no end, there will always be a score to settle. It never ends.

This has been going on for awhile. And I laugh when I read things like #2.

SJ - Are you stating the Yankees are not pitching Manny in a way that is dangerous to his health? If you are, you are simply full of ####.

I am saying your outrage is one sided.

There's a huge philosophical difference...

Pedro hits people because he's a team player.

Farnsworth hit Manny because the Yankees are frustrated with 7+ years of constant, often times humiliating, failure... failure after failure after failure... and Manny's two HRs last night just reminded them that, no matter how hard they dream, wish and pray... they'll never be as good as Manny unless they do something to bring Manny down.

I am saying your outrage is one sided.

As is yours. Around we go, I guess.

Well said koot, well said.

As is yours. Around we go, I guess.

My outrage has calmed some. I did not get indignant when they came up and in on ARod the previous night, after his long homer in the first.

And no matter how hard they dream wish and pray, they will never be as good as ARod.

Well stated sj, well stated...

I still think MLB could solve the problem really easily with 2 simple rule changes:

1) If, in an umpire's estimation, a pitcher has intentionally thrown at a hitter, he is immediately ejected from the current game, and the commissioner's office reviews the play, taking into consideration any defense offered by the player, for a possible suspension and/or fines based on intent.*

2) If a pitcher hits a batter in the head at any time, he is immediately ejected and suspended for some period of time, and the commissioner's office reviews the play, taking into consideration any defense offered by the player, for a potentially longer suspension and/or fines based on intent.

The first change eliminates the unfair "warning" system and really doesn't give the umpire any more discretion than he has now. The second puts pitchers on notice that hitting a batter in the head always has consequences regardless of intent, and has very serious consequences if ruled to be intentional.

*The current rule for reference: Rule 8.02(d) (Intentionally Pitch at the Batter)

If, in the umpire’s judgment, such a violation occurs, the umpire may elect either to:
1. Expel the pitcher, or the manager and the pitcher, from the game, or
2. may warn the pitcher and the manager of both teams that another such pitch will result in the immediate expulsion of that pitcher (or a replacement) and the manager.

I was more surprised that someone throwing at Manny's face came in a game where he actually ran on his homeruns. As far as i could tell, he didn't stand at the plate and admire them, even on his no-doubt bomb.

(From 9)

This was what really struck me about it. When I heard the story I pictured behavior totally different from what I then saw on the replays. On both homers he was out of the batter's box faster than you pretty much ever see him.

And no matter how hard they dream wish and pray, they will never be as good as ARod.

Count the Ringzzz, Baby!!!

Oh wait, there aren't any.

Never mind.