Yeah, but I'll bet Mo won't Riverdance.

What's he supposed to say? Concede to the Yankees? I tend to think that Papelbon might be an idiot, but he understands allegiances, at least.

I choose Tim Lincecum as closer.

Perhaps Wagner will close.

Is it just me or has Papelbon given up runs in a high percentage of his recent outings. Anyway, Mo's era is a run and a half lower.

[Comment deleted. EDIT: JF]

I'd let Joe Nathan close.

#6 is just disgusting. Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself for posting that. If you have to write using that sort of language, you should go somewhere else.

Joe Buck? Is that you?

I suppose given the AL's recent dominance, it's a safe chicken-before-the-egg boast on the sly - but I hope the junior circuit gets blown out... more so, because for a change, it may actually mean something for the Cubs.

By the way, Ben Sheets would be the 2nd best closer (Rivera) in baseball if he only pitched 1 inning per game. He can dial up to mid-upper 90s and bring a serious uncle charlie to the plate. All with excellent command.

Many scouts felt this way when he was coming up, he was know as a 2 pitch pitcher, still is.

I predict 2 IP 4K 0BB 0ER tomorrow. Touching 98.

Next thing you know another closer will want to enter the game as Enter Sandman blares from the PA system.

He can want it all he wants, just like he probably wants an IQ over 60- that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to get it.

Joe Buck? Is that you?

No. I just don't think you need to be a vulgar prat on this site.

I usually don't want to get involved with the whole Yank-Sox thing, but Papelbon needs to shut the f*ck up. It's the final ASG at Yankee Stadium, and the Bombers still have one of the greatest closers of all time on their roster. He's also having a fine year. Mo is going to close, if for the symbolism than nothing else. I say all that as someone who is definitely not a Yankees fan.

I want a lot of things. I, for one, want to impregnate Jessica Alba. I'm not going to. I don't expect to. I don't think I deserve it. Neither should Pap. His comment that he "deserves it" rankles me. It stinks of presumption. You're a good closer, Jon, no one doubts that. No need to be an self-centered asshat.

There's only a handful of dominant closers. Papelbon is one of them. But Mo is the best ever, and he's performing better than ever. Even if the game wasn't at Yankee stadium, Rivera deserves to close.

Well, I am looking forward to hearing Mr. Papelbon's take on the 5 year/$80 million dollar contract awaiting K-Rod this winter.

"I'm making a statement right now, saying I don't want it, I want him to have it. I said all that earlier, but that's the way I feel about it.''

PUT. THAT. COFFEE. DOWN.

PUT. THAT. COFFEE. DOWN

Enjoy your steak knives, Pap.

Of course Rivera is better and should close in Yankee Stadium.

But if I had to choose, for my team, between a closer who wanted to close the All-Star Game and a closer who didn't want to close the All-Star Game, I'd choose the former.

But if I had to choose, for my team, between a closer who wanted to close the All-Star Game and a closer who didn't want to close the All-Star Game, I'd choose the former.

He didn't say he wants to close, he said that he earned the right.

Well, he hasn't. He's earned the opportunity, but if anyone has the *right* to close this game, it's Rivera, and nobody else.

I think we are getting testy - paps is dumb - but not that dumb.

NEW YORK -- Jonathan Papelbon spent much of the 50-minute long media interview session with the AL All-Stars answering questions about who he thought should close tomorrow night's game.

He said that he'd love to close the game -- he wouldn't be who he is if he didn't feel that way -- but that he understood it would not be an easy call, since the game is in Yankee Stadium and Mariano Rivera is not only a hometown favorite, but maybe the greatest closer in the game. Papelbon said he'd talked it over with manager Terry Francona a couple of days ago, but that Francona had not made a final decision.

But after the interview sessions were over, Papelbon pulled a reporter aside outside of the hotel ballroom in the Grand Hyatt and said that he had something more to say.

Papelbon took the reporter's tape recorder, held it to his mouth like a microphone, and said: "This is Jonathan Papelbon, closer of the Boston Red Sox. Mariano Rivera will be closing the 2008 All-Star Game in Yankee Stadium.

"I'm making a statement right now, saying I don't want it, I want him to have it. I said all that earlier, but that's the way I feel about it.''

He didn't say he wants to close, he said that he earned the right.

There's very little chance that Jonathan Papelbon understands the difference between those two claims.

I think we are getting testy - paps is dumb - but not that dumb.

Yes, after trying to talk Francona into letting him close and telling the media that he should close, he realized that he sounds like a tool and retracted what he said.

He still did the other stuff.

And, regardless, saying that he's earned the right is just another way of saying "I'm an awesome badass", which is what everyone wants their closer to think.

I can't believe people actually get upset over stuff like this.

PUT. THAT. COFFEE. DOWN.

Not to be a self-centered asshat, but I would leave out the second period. God knows I've seen the film often enough. Finally had the sense to buy the DVD after teaching the play for two semesters.

As for being a self-centered asshat ... well, yeah. That has a lot to do with his success as a closer. Every successful athlete I've ever known (NCAA D-1 and D-2) was pretty much certain, whether they'd admit or not, that they were the best player on the team at their position (and a few regardless of position). And these were kids who had virtually no shot at a pro career (John McDonald notwithstanding). Now, Papelbon is far from the most politic of players, but that will compromise his endorsement career more so than his baseball one.

Papelbon's remarks were entirely predictable. I'd much rather have read something from Rivera.

Francona's earned the right to manage the game and the right to stick it up the Yankees' collective ass if he wants. He probably won't though.

I can't believe people actually get upset over stuff like this.

Yeah, what a surprise that a blog site devoted to intense scrutiny of baseball attracts people with intense feelings about baseball.

Who would have expected it?

Crazy days. People that care about this stuff actually care about it.

Yeah, what a surprise that a blog site devoted to intense scrutiny of baseball attracts people with intense feelings about baseball.

Who would have expected it?

Ha ha ha

It's an exhibition game and one of the best closers in the game thinks they deserve to close. This is news?

He didn't say he wants to close, he said that he earned the right.

I'd be happier the other way, meaning I would expect every guy there to want the ball, but I would also expect them to acknowledge that Mo has the right before all others to close this game at home at the mid-point of a fine season in a particularly significant game in Yankees' history.

When I first saw this headline, I read "Papelbon: I want to lose tomorrow night."

LOL. I would love it if Tito had Rivera warming up in the bullpen, but then left Papelbon in to pitch the 9th ala Cito Gaston with Mike Mussina at the 1993 ASG at Camden Yards. That would be hilarious.

LOL. I would love it if Tito had Rivera warming up in the bullpen, but then left Papelbon in to pitch the 9th ala Cito Gaston with Mike Mussina at the 1993 ASG at Camden Yards. That would be hilarious.

New York ain't Baltimore. He'd be stabbed on the way to his car.

What would Paps say if the NL actually wins tomorrow?
"I want to pitch the 9th in a meaningless 16-3 blowout!"

But after the interview sessions were over, Papelbon pulled a reporter aside outside of the hotel ballroom in the Grand Hyatt and said that he had something more to say.

Papelbon took the reporter's tape recorder, held it to his mouth like a microphone, and said: "This is Jonathan Papelbon, closer of the Boston Red Sox. Mariano Rivera will be closing the 2008 All-Star Game in Yankee Stadium.

"I'm making a statement right now, saying I don't want it, I want him to have it. I said all that earlier, but that's the way I feel about it.''

Why are we so stupid as a nation? Aping for the media. Shut up and go play.

just another way of saying "I'm an awesome badass"

Like the Riverdance stuff. No, wait. That said something else.

Though I would have Rivera close tomorrow, the fact is Papelbon has been the better pitcher overall since the beginning of 2007...and that's even more true including the postseason. Of course, if you want to argue only 2008 counts that's fine, but I'd suggest that this isn't really how players are selected for the ASG and (as well) it moots out most of the comments made in this thread about Rivera's career.

Of course, because he says a lot of dumb things I understand why people take potshots at Papelbon, too.

Papelbon has good reason for wanting to close, his teams going to make the playoffs and has a decent shot at a repeat title. Mo doesn't have that particular impetus, even if he thinks the Yanks aren't anywhere near out of it.

Quitcher #######, Yankee fans. jesus. and you call us whiners.

Papelbon has good reason for wanting to close, his teams going to make the playoffs and has a decent shot at a repeat title. Mo doesn't have that particular impetus, even if he thinks the Yanks aren't anywhere near out of it.


That argument would allow Borowski to be the "closer" if the Indians were in it. #### this, just let Nathan close.

I do think it would be awfully funny if the American League just went ahead and lost and Brad Lidge ended up closing the game. Tito could stick Mo in to set down Corey Hart, Cristian Guzman and Ryan Ludwick 1-2-3, and everybody could have their moment and blow it out their butts at the same time.

Papelbon has good reason for wanting to close, his teams going to make the playoffs and has a decent shot at a repeat title. Mo doesn't have that particular impetus, even if he thinks the Yanks aren't anywhere near out of it.

If he wants to win the game, having the guy who has a 0.37 ERA and .311 OPS against in save situations this season on the mound in the ninth would be a good thing.

the fact is Papelbon has been the better pitcher overall since the beginning of 2007...and that's even more true including the postseason. Of course, if you want to argue only 2008 counts that's fine

Or you could argue for counting 08, 07 and the decade+ before that and conclude that Rivera is the best closer and post-season pitcher in history who happens to be in the middle of what may be his best season.

Gawd, another stupid meaningless media driven BS fest.
Pretty much every pro athlete in the world is crazy competitive and cocksure, ask any player at the game and they'd want the ball.

The sports media world is so pathetic, stick enough microphones in the faces of people who've made their way via their bodies and not their intellect, and turn any tiny scrap that slips out into a huge story so you can fill column inches and argue about it with other "writers" on TV.

There's about an hour's worth of REAL sports news that happens everyday, when you have a half dozen 24hour channels, and a million column inches to fill you start being dumb.

There's about an hour's worth of REAL sports news that happens everyday

Even this may be an exaggeration some days. But even if not, they would find a way to make it vapid and uninteresting. CNN et al manage to do it with world news, which is practically infinite in its potential for profitable bloodiness.

Yeah, I watch lots of CNN/MSNBC/Fox, they'll mention something HUGE like Zimbabwe, and even put a couple minutes about it on.. but then go right back to 600 morons overanalyising some stupid mild gaffe by a presidential candidate's buddy.
Or they'll run an hour long special about something that's important, but vague and dilettante, like "planet in Peril"

I hope Rivera come in for a save and blows it spectacularly.

Francona should use Rivera for 2 innings: that'll really #### with the Yankees

Francona should use Rivera for 2 innings: that'll really #### with the Yankees

Three days off after the ASG. Go ahead and use him for three innings.*

*Don't use him for three innings

Or you know, have the best closer in the league on the mound since becoming a closer... and that would you know be Papelbon... who does deserve it... if by deserve you mean be the best at his position over the moderate past.

Since 06
Papelbon: ERA+ 387, WHIP 82
Rivera: ERA+ 281, WHIP 83

#6 is just disgusting. Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself for posting that. If you have to write using that sort of language, you should go somewhere else.

Wow--having gotten here post-edit, I'm almost curious.

Is Papelbon assuming the AL's going to lead after 8? Screw him. Perhaps he's trying to keep up with Beckett on my "annoying little $hit Red Sox pitchers I hate" list. (That's not entirely fair to the Red Sox--it used to be a list of one, and it wasn't team-specific; I'd hate Beckett regardless of who he pitched for.)

Then again, I've always thought Schilling was kind of a tool too, so perhaps I had it right the first time...

ask any player at the game and they'd want the ball

This just in: Lance Berkman wants to close. Apparently he still doesn't trust Lidge.

LOL. I would love it if Tito had Rivera warming up in the bullpen, but then left Papelbon in to pitch the 9th ala Cito Gaston with Mike Mussina at the 1993 ASG at Camden Yards. That would be hilarious.

The Mussina/Gaston episode immediately crossed my mind when I started reading this thread. I remember well the "CITO SUCKS!" chants that followed Gaston's stunt.

And you know, Francona could have solved this whole "problem" by having Rivera pitch the first inning. After all, it's just an exhibition game.

I thought Mussina warmed up on his own.

#6 is just disgusting. Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself for posting that. If you have to write using that sort of language, you should go somewhere else.

Wow--having gotten here post-edit, I'm almost curious.

I admit it. Me Too. I've read--and written!--some pretty blue stuff here. I'm having trouble imagining what would get a post deleted so quickly.

I admit it. Me Too. I've read--and written!--some pretty blue stuff here. I'm having trouble imagining what would get a post deleted so quickly.

Having seen it, I'm shocked it caused such a fuss. I wouldn't have even put it in the Top 200 offensive things I've read here.

This is the one time all year I'll definitely root for Ben Sheets.

Or you could argue for counting 08, 07 and the decade+ before that and conclude that Rivera is the best closer and post-season pitcher in history who happens to be in the middle of what may be his best season.

Rivera is clearly the best closer in history.

Papelbon has clearly been the better closer since he become one full-time.

Because of where the game is, and his career, I'd have Rivera close the game tonight. But a lot of the comments here forget that the second statement above is true as well.

And you know, Francona could have solved this whole "problem" by having Rivera pitch the first inning. After all, it's just an exhibition game.

I actually loved this idea. Who knows if there will be a "save opportunity" for Rivera in the 9th? I think it would have been cool to see Rivera come out and throw the first pitch, very fitting.

That said, this is a non-issue. This is the All-Star game; if you're looking at ERA+ since 2006 to decide who should pitch the last inning, you're taking it just a bit too seriously. I know MHS likes to defend his guys, but I really can't imagine Francona going to anyone but Rivera in the 9th. If the game were in fenway and not Yankee Stadium, I'm sure we could all agree papelbon would be the probable choice for the 9th.

Now, Papelbon in the 8th? Absolutely. That's some 1-2 punch.

Papelbon has clearly been the better closer since he become one full-time.

This is not true. He has had one better year. And he has had some other years which are good, with a much smaller workload.

New York ain't Baltimore. He'd be stabbed on the way to his car.

Actually, he'd also be stabbed on the way to his car in Baltimore, but it would have nothing to do with the game.

Papelbon has clearly been the better closer since he become one full-time.

This is not true. He has had one better year. And he has had some other years which are good, with a much smaller workload.

Oh, go get a room, you two. They're both better than K-Rod, and that's all that matters.

If Papelbon can fix the page width, I'd let him close.

If Papelbon can fix the page width, I'd let him close.

I thought it was my browser.

That said, this is a non-issue. This is the All-Star game; if you're looking at ERA+ since 2006 to decide who should pitch the last inning, you're taking it just a bit too seriously. I know MHS likes to defend his guys, but I really can't imagine Francona going to anyone but Rivera in the 9th. If the game were in fenway and not Yankee Stadium, I'm sure we could all agree papelbon would be the probable choice for the 9th.

I'm not argueing that Papelbon should close. Just that the sentiment in this thread that Papelbon isn't the pitcher Mariano is, is wrong. For exmample:

Ben Sheets would be the 2nd best closer (Rivera) in baseball if he only pitched 1 inning per game.

Clearly stating Mariano is the best.

Of course Rivera is better

Clearly stating Mariano is the best

Well, he hasn't. He's earned the opportunity, but if anyone has the *right* to close this game, it's Rivera, and nobody else.

I would say being the best over the "projectionable period" would be "earning the opportunity". While Rivera has certainly had a better career, he hasn't been better in the recent past. Heck Papelbon's average ERA+ is better than River's BEST ERA+ over the 3 years since Papelbon has been a clsoer, which amazingly enough is best period to use for projection (rolling 3 year).

Really, what I'm rallying against is the double standard. How many people get bent out of shape over who makes the all star team, or when players who have earned the nod get snubbed. If is due to nostaligia or politics or misconseptions about player quality, they get bent out of shape. When Rivera closes the allstar game, which I actually have no problem with...actually I'm in favor of, because I think the AllStar game is a place for nostaligia and recongnition of all time greatness (which is why I hate the all winner gets home field) we should call it what it is. Nostaligia, and not merit based.

Papelbon has clearly been the better closer since he become one full-time.

Blown saves, 2006-2008: Papelbon, 13; Rivera, 7.

Who's the better closer again?

too many posts, too little story.

Isn't weighted three year better than rolling three year? Doesn't that, plus throwing 20 fewer innings, take Papelbon down a small notch, and probably put him below Rivera for the "projectionable" period?

This is not true. He has had one better year. And he has had some other years which are good, with a much smaller workload.

Actually, it is true since the timeframe described is different than what you seem to be thinking of. Though, it does appear that getting the discussion beyond "Mariano is the bezzzt" is not going to happen. Not surprising, I guess.

Nathan really does get the short stick in this argument, I guess because the other two 'best' closers play for rivals. I don't know which stats are the best to use for relievers, but BP's wins added have him as virtually tied with Papelbon in 2006-07 and much better this year. He's better than Mo every year.

this is all just argument for the sake of argument. Every time a hot closer shows up someone is going to say "hey, he's better than Rivera! Best closer in baseball!" Doesn't matter if Papelbon or Nathan is having a better year, or a better two years, or whatever - Rivera's mark of greatness is that he has outlasted every challenger to the "best closer" title.

VORP 2006-2008:

Papelbon: 73.9

Rivera: 77.3

Rivera's mark of greatness is that he has outlasted every challenger to the "best closer" title.

He hasn't outlasted Nathan yet.

Or Jenks!!!!

VORP 2006-2008:

Yes, and VORP is a bad statistic for this discussion, as the alternatives are not replacement level. Average would be a better baseline for this discussion due to the nature of the demands on the typical closer.

Isn't weighted three year better than rolling three year?

Sure you should be weighting it by BFP or Innings or whathave you, but the idea is the most recent 3 years of data.

Average would be a better baseline for this discussion due to the nature of the demands on the typical closer.

All of Bpro's metric's have them very close, Pap ahead in ARP, Mo ahead in WXRL. I have almost no understanding of what those stats represent, but all of them are close enough to confirm what I suspected, that Mo's IP edge offsets Pap's ERA+ edge, making them roughly equivalent, certainly close enough that I'm not going to be convinced one way or another that one has been better than the other.

Sure you should be weighting it by BFP or Innings or whathave you, but the idea is the most recent 3 years of data.

Actually, I was thinking you should weight the most recent year more heavily than the most distant year.

certainly close enough that I'm not going to be convinced one way or another that one has been better than the other.

If you were talking about Value I would agree with you. Likely a push. We weren't. We were talking about who was better. Paps has been at a higher level.

Actually, I was thinking you should weight the most recent year more heavily than the most distant year.

Need to do both.

Actually, he'd also be stabbed on the way to his car in Baltimore, but it would have nothing to do with the game.

This didn't receieve nearly enough credit for how clever it was.

Need to do both.

OK then. I'm not sure that I see the argument that Papelbon has been better in that case. His best year by far is the most distant and he has significantly fewer IP and BFP.

This didn't receieve nearly enough credit for how clever it was.

puh-lease. who stabs these days. i ALWAYS use a handgun in my muggings.

MHS, you have to take into account that Papelbon is clearly declining. Sure, he had an amazing year two years ago, but on his current trajectory, he'll be lucky to be a mop-up guy in two years.

On a serious note, Papelbon has pretty much exactly Joe Nathan's ERA over the last 3 years, and has given up 7 UER to Nathan's 0. He really is getting the shaft by being excluded.

So, who would win in a fight with each other? Superman or the Hulk?

So, who would win in a fight with each other? Superman or the Hulk?

Sorry, the correct question is "Do you think mighty Mouse could beat up Superman?"

No way. Superman has the same skill set but is much bigger.

So, who would win in a fight with each other? Superman or the Hulk?

What are they fighting about? Which (recent) movie sucked less?

Are you kidding? A tiger totally kicks a bears a**. It's not even close.

I wouldn't have even put it in the Top 200 offensive things I've read here.

Whatever happened to battlefob? It would be a nice time to have a "Jason Gimabi" rant.