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Thursday, December 27, 2007
Abraham: Yanks should say no thanks for Johan Santana
Yanks to go cold turkey on Santana? Big Boy Pete takes a look.
It’s their money, not ours. But I sit there at the Stadium and listen. People cheer loudest for the players who came up in pinstripes. People respect A-Rod but they love Jeter. They wanted Clemens do well. They adored Andy Pettitte.
Cashman has somehow made it cool for Yankee fans to care about Jose Tabata even though 99 percent of them have no idea what he looks like.
Spend the money on draft picks, Dominican shortstops and Taiwanese pitchers. Go find kids in Korea, Australia, Venezuela and everywhere else. Hire more scouts and go see every junior college prospect in Texas. Go find the next Santana, don’t trade for the old one.
Let Santana go to the Mets or the Angels or better yet, let him stay in Minnesota where he belongs. If the Red Sox were serious, they would have done the deal weeks ago. They’re pushing chips around the table hoping somebody in Tampa will go all in so they can fold.
We’ve spent two years wondering how good Phil Hughes could be. Let’s find out.
Repoz
Posted: December 27, 2007 at 11:38 AM | 59 comment(s)
Related News: General, Minnesota, NY Yankees
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While I am leaning towards not trading anyone for Santana, I have no qualms or compulsions about the Yankees shelling out big bucks next year for Santana/Sabathia and Teixeira, what with at least $46.5MM coming off the books (Giambi, Mussina, Pavano, Farnsworth and Hawkins) and with up to an extra $32MM possibly coming off the Yankee books next year (Pettitte and Abreu).
If Santana/Sabathia and Teixeira become FAs after 2008, I expect all big revenue teams to go after them (obviously as appropriate - I don't think the BoSox would go after Teixeira), ponying up cold hard cash for them…
This is how I feel.
what with at least $46.5MM coming off the books (Giambi, Mussina, Pavano, Farnsworth and Hawkins) and with up to an extra $32MM possibly coming off the Yankee books next year (Pettitte and Abreu).
Wow, 78 mil to replace 30 mil (in this year's market) worth of talent (assuming Mussina, Giambi, Farnsworth and Pavano will all be useless by the end of the year, which I think is likely).
I hope the Yankees agree 100% with this article, btw. Of course, that's because I'm not a Yankee fan.
It's not so much that Giambi, Mussina, Farnsworth and Hawkins are useless, but that they will probably contribute at replacemente level (if that).
In case of the aforementioned 3 pitchers, the Yankees will arguably be in position to replace all of their productions in-house cheaply/much cheaper (or depending of how you look at things, Mussina will be replaced by Santana/Sabathia, though Moose is at the back-end of the Yankee rotation).
Pavano is dead to me.
It's really not that hard to understand. If you're a homegrown guy new to the team and you make a mistake and/or suck, you will get the benefit of the doubt (for the most part), if you're not, you won't. Of course, if you are part of a "successful" team, then the love expands to everyone.
It's easy to say that now. But if Hughes starts slow this year and the Yankees are 5-10 games behind the Red Sox come July while Johan is pitching like normal for whichever team he pitches for I'd bet this guy writes an article blasting the Yankees for not trading Hughes. How Yankee prospects are overblown and should have gotten Johan when they could. That's the beauty of being a sportswriter is that when your wrong most likely nobody will remember. Where if your Cashman and your wrong it could cost you your job.
why do people keep saying this? How has the hype surrounding Hughes, Joba et al. been any different from the hype around, say, Buchholz, or Upton? Promising prospects are promising prospects no matter the team. And remember all the hype about Wang and Cano when they came up? Me neither.
I do.
Remember how D'Angelo Jimenez and Nick Johnson were going to tear up the league when they got called up?
It's not the fault of the Yankees, but prospects in the Yankee organization are going to get more attention, because they're in the Yankee organization. And yes, this is true of the Red Sox these days as well.
Similarly, if all that happens and Abraham doesn't write an article blasting the Yankees for not trading Hughes, no one will remember that you called him a hypocrite with no real evidence to support it. That's the beauty of an anonymous message board.
Remember how D'Angelo Jimenez and Nick Johnson were going to tear up the league when they got called up?
It's not the fault of the Yankees, but prospects in the Yankee organization are going to get more attention, because they're in the Yankee organization. And yes, this is true of the Red Sox these days as well.
This is silly. Buccholz, Chamberlain, Hughes, Johnson, Jimenez, these guys are/were great prospects on their merits. What were publications like Baseball America supposed to do? Well, Nick Johnson just posted a .525 OBP, but we're going to ignore him since he's a Yankee...?
That is not the point Abraham made, thus the responses. I agree with what you say, though...it's just a very different point.
####, Ian Kennedy got more respect than Buchholz.
I will bet anything you want that Abraham does not write an article blasting the Yankees for not trading Hughes in July no matter what happens. Anything, you name it.
Remember how D'Angelo Jimenez and Nick Johnson were going to tear up the league when they got called up?
Remember how Jimenez got into a car accident and broke his neck and how Johnson has been a great hitter who can't stay on the field? Cano had almost zero hype and was generally thought of as being a near non-prospect because he could barely hit and couldn't field his position. As for Wang, I would love it if you could produce something that hyped him. I remember Gammons mentioning he threw gas back before he was an insider and almost nothing else. And are any of these guys any different from all the White Sox prospects who received so much hype and never amounted to anything? Jeremy Reed, Joe Crede, Joe Borchard and Jon Rauch all kind of suck.
From who?
I don't and I pay a lot of attention to the Yankees and their prospects. Wang got a little press early but that died down when he was injured. Cano, if anything, was undersold. Most mention of him was about his limitations.
Yeah, we hyped him, no one else did.
I didn't say it wasn't true of the White Sox. In fact, the White Sox definitely have a recent history of prospects that are busts when they hit the majors. Ken Williams is more than happy to deal prospects for veterans.
But the Yankees definitely had a "pump and dump" thing going with prospects for a while. Remember Ed Yarnall? Ricky Ledee? Drew Henson? Not that I'd blame them - I'd do it too.
1. You're going to have to define "respect."
2. Justin Upton has been great and looks to have a terrific future, but he is not in a separate class of prospect from Hughes and Chamberlain it would seem. What I mean by this is that after '06 everyone had Hughes ahead of Upton. Now, after '07 there is a sizable portion of people that say they would take Bruce over Upton and since Chamberlain is a consensus top 5 talent I think we can extrapolate that there isn't some chasm separating Joba and Upton.
3. Maybe if Baseball America hadn't been so busy ignoring Buchholz they would have ranked him higher than the 51st best prospect in baseball despite having like 20 innings above Low A ball. Hell, maybe Kevin Goldstein could have opened his eyes enough to rank him higher than 41st...
####, Ian Kennedy got more respect than Buchholz.
When has this ever been true? Was it last offseason when Buchholz made everyone's top prospect lists and Kennedy wasn't mentioned? Or was it this offseason when Kennedy is an afterthought on top prospect lists while Buccholz is leading them off?
.280/.320/.400 while playing 1B.
Drew Henson was a consensus elite talent. Ed Yarnall was a highly regarded pitching prospect with the Mets before becoming a Yankee (and the Marlins are involved somehow, but the point is that he's not some Yankee prospect pixie dust creation). Ricky Ledee was a toolsy international signee that no one really mentioned until he spent two years posting OPS' in the .950 range at AA and AAA, are there occurrences where those types of players DON'T receive hype?
.280/.320/.400 while playing 1B.
Oh, will you get over it already? Christ.
No wait, I'm wrong. My bad.
Oh, will you get over it already? Christ.
No, someone doesn't get to post that there was a lot of Cano hyping without getting a response. You don't want to see that written again, tell your Sox fan friends to cut the bull about the revisionist history.
Well, we can also discuss how he's too fat/slow to play 2B and doesn't have the offensive ability to play 3B.
Mets fans suggest you instead turn to the Church.
Point taken, I agree with you that he wasn't hyped - maybe as a guy who could be a future regular, but certainly not as the multiple all-star he's turned in to - but can't you guys come up with at least one other example to use instead? It comes across as weird and obsessive the way you constantly refer to it, like you have to prove to everyone over and over that, no, seriously you guys, Cano is really good, and David Cameron is a big dumb jerk.
Then again, you guys have to put up with kevin comparing Ellsbury to Sizemore and Pedroia to Eddie Collins, so I guess I should let you have your fun :-)
Oh, will you get over it already? Christ.
David Cameron infamously posted on USS Mariner in, oh 2005, that Cano would never stick at 2B, and would never hit enough to play anywhere else, and was going to be a AAAA guy at best, etc, etc. Now it comes up any time Cano is discussed here.
Well, I think Sickels called Cano something along the lines of a non-prospect, but then apologized for it, so the quote has been left alone and I would kinda feel bad digging it up and posting it. Looking at what Bpro had to say, they were surprisingly non-commital and said nothing about his defense other then that he was error prone.
I think, but this may be my skewed Yankee fanboy perception, that now that Cano is generally excepted as a star, even hear, the Cameron quote doesn't rear it's ugly head as often.
It wasn't just that he said it, it was the manner in which he said it.
In the game I went to, Cano hit a homer and a really booming double, so I noticed him right away.
this was his famous "Eating Crow" post about Melky and Cano. He still may be right about Melky, but Cano is a star, and most people here would say that.
Oh good call, he was definately hyped up. I think this is the year he lives up to it, finally.
What I don't understand is how everyone whiffed on his defense.
Thanks to SG for the homework
Apparently he was, my mistake.
They had a recent Yankees Classic on YES the other day, in which Michael Kay whined about Matsui not winning RoY. I remember that going on far longer than the Cameron quote.
I think we go out of our way to bash Kay as much as possible everytime he comes up in a discussion.
Santana to the Yankees for Hughes, Cabrera, and Marquez.
Hughes and Cabrera to the Red Sox for Lester, Lowrie, Masterson, and Crisp.
In almost any three-way deal, SOMEBODY is getting shafted. Who is it in this case? (I'll keep my opinions to myself for now.) If you can identify which team pulls the short straw here, you can figure out the way this "should" play out.
Uh, the Red Sox?
Besides, I meant it as a hypothetical to make a point -- not as a serious proposal.
Sickels doesn't like to be too optimistic about players in the low minors and Hughes had just finished up in A+. He may be overly pessimistic on some of these players but he is consistent.
Given the information available, a B was perfectly acceptable for Hughes.
Similarly, if all that happens and Abraham doesn't write an article blasting the Yankees for not trading Hughes, no one will remember that you called him a hypocrite with no real evidence to support it. That's the beauty of an anonymous message board.
-------------------------------
I will bet anything you want that Abraham does not write an article blasting the Yankees for not trading Hughes in July no matter what happens. Anything, you name it.
Here I go out to the supermarket and when I get back I find that my thoughts have been plagiarized by two different people. But Cowboy: I want half your action.
The Red Sox and yankees will never enter into any substantive deal with one another for fear of coming out on the short end and never having to hear the end of it.
Hell, they're still talking about Sparky Lyle.
Hell, Kevin, just imagine what your early childhood mental state might've been if they'd gone through with that Williams for Dimaggio trade---in 1949!
Almost 3 years ago. In fact, after a 2007 sneak preview, Hughes would be lucky to be the next Ben Sheets. B seems about right.
Even with his hamstring injury and a mid-season call up, Hughes seemed like he pitched more innings this year than Sheets has in his entire career. Sarcasm intended.
$10,000*
*Note: Bet not valid if I lose.
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