Yesterday, it was don't trade francoeur, becaue he is a fan favorite, but today it is trade your best and most popular player, to re-stock? It must be fun to wake up every day, not remembering anything that has happened previously in your life...a perpetual "50 first dates" existance.

I can get to the re-stocking argument, but start by flushing the crap that is Francoeur first.

10 and 5. I really don't think he'd waive it, especially considering the extension he signed earlier this year.

Yes. By all means, "brace yourself" for one of the two mantras (along with "Fire Bobby") of Atlanta blabbermouth sports-talk radio and AJC comment threads for several seasons now. Yawn. I guess there's supposed to be added shock value with it coming from someone who knows what they're talking about...but that doesn't really apply with Bisher.

Chipper not a Brave? Ridiculous, next you'll be telling me that Glavine will be simply released from the Braves and people will wonder during the year as to when Papi will be benched.

If this was at all plausible I woulf be telling Doug Melvin to take the counterintuitive approach, don't bother finding a starter and try and bludgeon your way to the playoffs.

With Hardy now hitting I would give it a whirl. Escobar at short for the Crew works. Put Chipper after Prince and bang away.

I can get to the re-stocking argument, but start by flushing the crap that is Francoeur first.

Not to change this from a Chipper thread (and my verdict on that is UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES) but WHY trade Francouer now?

Why?

He isn't a contract burden as he is under cost-control and can be non-tendered at the end of the year and his value is so low right now that you couldn't get anything for him that you couldn't get off the waiver wire. What would trading Francouer accomplish except to appease bloodthirsty fans?

Why sell low?

He isn't a contract burden

They're pretty much at their payroll limit, dumping his $3.4M salary is no small consideration.

What would trading Francouer accomplish except to appease bloodthirsty fans?

Well, you'd win more games.

To start, let's just all acknowledge that Furman Bisher is 7000 years old and still smarting from that uppity Tut kid and what he did to the official state religion. As a result he seems unable to distinguish between superstar players who are well past their use-by date (Glavine) and superstar players who, though gimpy, are one of the two or three best hitters in the league when healthy (Chipper.) Ignoring for the minute his grumpy old man routine on Francoeur - a player who he and his audience have treated like a superstar for four years even though he's been little more than Mike Kelly in RF - if you can't make that simple distinction you can't be taken seriously as an analyst.

If it were in the Braves best interest to trade Chipper, then they would approach him about his 10-5 status and see what they could work out. It is, of course, not in their best interest to do so. First, even though they run a AA- or AAA- outfielder in 2 of the 3 positions on any given night, even though they're two games below .500 and can't put anything together for an extended run, they're still only 4.5 games out of the division. The Braves aren't particularly good, but neither are the Phils or Mets, so dumping the season to trade Chipper, just to say you did, doesn't make any sense. Similarly, it doesn't make any sense from an organizational perspective. The Braves can afford to cut ties with Glavine and Smoltz because they have younger, better options for their rotation. They don't have a better option than Chipper at 3B, and there's no one in the minors who is going to push him for the length of his off-season extension. So organizationally, even if you're into rebuild mode, you don't dump Chipper (unless you get Wright or Zimmerman or Longoria, etc in return.)

As for why trade Francoeur now? First, because it would be emotionally appealing to those of us who have grown to hate him like a pedophile who's stalking our little sister. Second, because trading him, even at his lowest value imaginable, is apparently the ONLY WAY TO GET HIM OUT OF THE STARTING LINEUP. If they'd ship his ass to Gwinnett and see what Brandon Jones could do, or start Omar Infante in RF or whatever, that would be one thing. But it's pretty apparent that Jeffy is going to make 3 outs per game every game until he is either traded, released, or shot by a crazed fan.

Well, you'd win more games.

Bullcrap. That is stupid snark. If they had someone better they could be starting that hypothetical player right now.

The OF stinks and there isn't anyone on the bench or in AAA any better. So yeah, Francoeour is costing them Ws this year but so would anyone else they currently have in the org that they could run out there.

Honestly the Braves best OF right now is Infante/McLouth/Diaz and they can run that OF out there and not start Francouer all the time if they really wanted without trading Francouer. I don't see why Frenchy has to either start or be trading. He is sucking.. so bench him. Or if you can actually get anything at all for him.. but I don't see why you would right now

They're pretty much at their payroll limit, dumping his $3.4M salary is no small consideration.

If cost was the reason he has to go then he could have been gone before he got 3.4 mil in the offseason. And he can be gone this offseason too.
If you're trading him today and hoping a team will eat the rest of this years money (1-2 mil I guess) then you are DEFINITELY going to be getting sub-waiver wire talent back in exchange. And you could dump him for, at worst, waiver wire talent, in the offseason before you non-tender him if you wanted.
Why not hold onto him for that slight chance that he puts it together and gains SOME value?

The OF stinks and there isn't anyone on the bench or in AAA any better.

Matt Diaz, Martin Prado, Gregor Blanco, Omar Infante (when he comes off the DL), Brandon Jones.

The best option, of course, would be for Jordan Schafer to come off the DL in Gwinnett, continue to tear the ball up for a week or two, then get recalled, pushing McLouth to right. Better defense in CF, better defense in RF, better offense all around. (Even when he was batting .210 and striking out 2 times per night Schafer had a better OBP than Francoeur.

Bullcrap. If they had someone better they could be starting that hypothetical player right now.

Or they could, you know, trade for one since we're talking about trades. The bar for "better than Francoeur" is so low that it wouldn't take a miracle.

If cost was the reason he has to go then he could have been gone before he got 3.4 mil in the offseason. And he can be gone this offseason too.

It's not the reason he has to go, it's an added bonus to getting him out of the lineup.

Second, because trading him, even at his lowest value imaginable, is apparently the ONLY WAY TO GET HIM OUT OF THE STARTING LINEUP. If they'd ship his ass to Gwinnett and see what Brandon Jones could do, or start Omar Infante in RF or whatever, that would be one thing. But it's pretty apparent that Jeffy is going to make 3 outs per game every game until he is either traded, released, or shot by a crazed fan.

I agree with you... So why not advocate the Braves benching him first.
If they are high enough on him to not bench him I don't see why they would want to go even further and trade him.

Or they could, you know, trade for one since we're talking about trades.

Sure. Did I say I wouldn't mind that? Hell, they just DID trade for OF help (though it isn't enough). But that doesn't change the whole Francouer thing. If you can trade Francouer as the centerpiece for a better OF, great. But why would anyone agree to that?
Any trade they could make for a quality OF could be done just as well regardless of whether Francouer is traded or not.

It is a completely seperate issue

If you can trade Francouer as the centerpiece for a better OF, great. But why would anyone agree to that?

I didn't say anything about him being a centerpiece, let alone in the same deal.

Matt Diaz, Martin Prado, Gregor Blanco, Omar Infante (when he comes off the DL), Brandon Jones.

Diaz is already starting most of the time anyway. That is like saying "why does Dontrelle need to be replaced in Detroit's rotation when Edwin Jackson is so good?"

Prado has played 6 career games between majors and minors in the OF. Don't get me wrong, I like him and he is a better player and I would love to see him learn LF/RF and play there some. But you can't just say a guy SHOULD be starting in a position he has no experience playing.

Blanco I have long liked as a reserve OFer, cool little player, but his OPS is just as bad as Francouer's right now.. except Blanco's OPS is amassed against International League pitching. There is no way you can say he is a better option that ANYONE right now.

Infante, like you said, is on the DL and it looks like Cox doesn't mind playing Infante in the OF anyway.

Jones is a decent prospect but he isn't hitting with any authority in AAA. It is hard to say he would be much of an improvement right now unless he turns it on

I didn't say anything about him being a centerpiece, let alone in the same deal.

I know. My point exactly.
Trading Francouer and trading for OF help are two completely different, unrelated, situations. I don't think ANYONE is saying the Braves shouldn't upgrade the OF. It is just easier said than done and they can certainly do that without dumping a guy for a half-penny on the dollar.

My point is, as bad as Francouer is right now, the whole team and upper minors are so full of holes that it is impossible to say that Frenchy spot on the roster could be better filled.

The Braves problem is half the team, not just Francouer

MM1f, we're arguing the same thing. So let's all point and laugh at Bisher writing "the years haven’t been weighing heavily on him" about a guy who hasn't played a full season in 6 years.

If they had someone better they could be starting that hypothetical player right now.

Francouer is 163 of 173 qualified MLB hitters with a .274 wOBA, and adds no defensive value. It can't be that hard to find something better.

I've got to think there are 10 AAAA guys stuck in someone's system who are better right now and would cost nothing more than a C prospect to get. Maybe if you get Frenchy off the roster they'll got get one of them. Even taking a no-hit speedy CF and stick him out there to OPS 550 with a +15 glove would be an improvement.

If you've got a rusting pickup with no engine in your back yard, you don't have to figure out where the replacement is coming from before you haul it away.

Edit: Just perusing the Int'l league leaders, Todd Linden is OPSing 895, is 29, and the Yankees have nowhere to play him. I'd imagine a single-A lottery ticket would get him to Atlanta.

Ok, first with Chippers contract there is no reason to even consider trading him (signed until 2012 with a vesting option in 2013 42mil for the first three years, don't know what the vesting option rate is)

second with his contract is there any team that has enough to make the trade winnable for the Braves and that is willing to pay his contract? I mean with the guy locked up like that you almost have to get 3 blue chip prospects (or two and maybe an early in his career major league player) and I'm not sure that any team really has that.

Cardinals need a third baseman, If they were willing to take on Chipper the best package they could offer would be Wallace, Rasmus, and either Tod, Motte or Perez I would guess. and there is no way they are parting with both Wallace and Rasmus.

what teams have the prospects, need and financial willingness to do a trade for Chipper?

So why not advocate the Braves benching him first.

Six of one, half dozen of the other, IMHO. Your argument seems to be "why trade low when you can just cut him in the off season." I don't have a robust counter-argument for that, noting only that no-one is really suggesting trading him for the bag of balls they sent to Minnesota for Kerry Ligtenberg. The idea behind all of the rational trade proposals - I ignore the AJC-fueled "we should trade Francoeur for Nick Markakis" madness - is to flip him for someone equally "under performing" on another club. Delmon Young, or DeJesus from KC, something like that. The idea would be to move Francoeur to some other team where he could sink or swim on his ability, and to take back a similar risk/reward type who could also sink or swim on his abilities. That doesn't buy Atlanta anything in terms of pure baseball talent, but it does buy them the ability evaluate the player and make moves as needed based on performance rather than how the rubes up in Gwinnett are going to react to the benching of their prissy little golden child. You take the PR hit in one lump, when you make the trade, and a month later no-one really gives a #### about Jeff Francoeur except his mom, dad, Catie and their immediate circle of friends. If you bench him, if you turn him into a pouting primadonna fifth OF, you have to drag that #### through the entire season. Regardless, if you can't trade him for something interesting in a "challenge trade", you definitely bench or platoon him.

vs LHP the Braves should run out

McLouth (CF)
Escobar (SS)
Chipper (3B)
McCann (C)
G Anderson (LF)
M Diaz (RF)
M Prado (1B)
K Johnson (2B)

Anderson, Prado and Johnson all have .900+ OPS against LHP this year.

vs RHP they should work Kotchman into the lineup. Probably best served by moving Prado over 2B and sitting Johnson and his .571 OPS vs righties. They could get Francoeur at bats here too as his splits vs RHP aren't that much worse than Anderson's, and Anderson is horrifically bad defensively. When Infante returns I'd start him in RF vs RHP.

It should be noted that Anderson and Johnson have huge reverse splits this year, and Anderson, for all of his early season badness and defensive shittiness, is steadily getting better and better.

What is the knock against bringing up Barton and playing him, it's not like he is young and you really have to worry about saving his arbitration years or anything, he's about average defensively (some say better, my eyes said average) he isn't a dominant personality so he won't distract from the team or any of that crap and he can probably outhit Frenchy right now. He came up for one day and got caught stealing and sent down. Heck he's a nice story (the rocket scientist who plays baseball) he's what I would call a perfectly suitable fourth outfielder which is more than I give Frenchy right now.

Barton is hitting 265/354/406 with reportedly poor defense at Gwinnett. I'd certainly give him a shot, but he hasn't really demanded a chance. The day to day management has not yet accepted out "replace him at all cost" theory on Francoeur, so Barton or Blanco or Reid Gorecki still has to "prove" that they deserve the shot ahead of the four year starter.

Edit: Just perusing the Int'l league leaders, Todd Linden is OPSing 895, is 29, and the Yankees have nowhere to play him. I'd imagine a single-A lottery ticket would get him to Atlanta.

He is now playing in Japan. I'm sure you could get Shelley Duncan, however...

DL in Gwinnett

Would that be named after Button Gwinnett? Wikipedia says it is. I had never heard of this dude until Fallout 3. I suppose I might should be more ashamed of not knowing every signatory of the Declaration, but he is decidedly low on the totem pole. As it is, I'll probably never forget the name due to its inherent memorability and the fact that you rarely run into American history provided by an animatronic National Archives robot with memory leaks that believes it is the actual patriot and defends the Declaration of Independence so vociferously. Hell, if it had just been a regular robot I'd have blown it away and taken the real Declaration rather than traveling all the way to Arlington Library to find hundreds-year-old ink so he could make a fake and protect the original. Long live Button!

A fairly obscure historical figure, Gwinnett nonetheless does hold one claim to fame: his autograph is among the most valuable in the world, a fact used to good effect by science fiction author Isaac Asimov in his short story "Button, Button." Valuations usually suggest an example of an original Gwinnett signature would be valued only behind the likes of Julius Caesar and William Shakespeare, making Gwinnett’s by far the most valuable American autograph. Single examples of Gwinnett’s autograph have been sold for as much as $150,000.

F'in a, man. The crap the internet teaches you.

Francouer is 163 of 173 qualified MLB hitters with a .274 wOBA, and adds no defensive value. It can't be that hard to find something better.

Right. The take away from this thread is that MM1f doesn't understand how bad Francoeur really is. Just slap together a Brandon Jones/Matty Diaz timeshare and the team is much better. But, of course, less dreamy.

Jeff Francoeur's UZR is +3.2 right now.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4792&position=OF

Francouer is 163 of 173 qualified MLB hitters with a .274 wOBA, and adds no defensive value. It can't be that hard to find something better.

Don't be so sure. Note that, among 30 teams, there are only 173 batters with enough PA to qualify. By season's end, that number will be about 140-150. It is not easy finding guys who "deserve" 502 or more PA in a season (and some of those will get hurt). It is easy to find guys who will give you what Francoeur does; it's not hard to find guys who will hit better than he does but almost all of them will have major flaws and aren't full-time players. Finding a starting RF to replace Francoeur -- doesn't happen this time of year without giving up something of substantial value.

The most realistic solution for the Braves is to rotate 4 guys through LF/RF and do their best to mix and match and, sure, one of those could/should be some AAAA player floating out there. Linden certainly wasn't ever anything special but it is a strange world where Francoeur is an everyday starter making $3.5 M while Linden has to pack off to Japan.