Come on down, Mike Cameron

coco crisp for sale...

I bet he is a Ranger next year.

coco crisp for sale...

Brilliant! And after what Coco did to the Braves this year (.417/.440/.875 in 6 games), they must think he's awesome!

The Braves can get back to winning World Series now.

I've gotta admit, while I generally side with the players I love Schuerholz's response here. Boras submits a contract offer, he looks it over, calls the player in and says in effect: "We've received your representative's proposal and we'd like to take the opportunity to thank you for your many contributions to our club over the years. However, we've decided to go in a different direction. Good luck with your future endeavors."

Not gonna bite, not gonna set the market.

Best Regards

John

so, what do you think Boras' offer was? I'm going to go with 4 years, $80 million, a gold house, and an incentive-based rocket car

so, what do you think Boras' offer was? I'm going to go with 4 years, $80 million, a gold house, and an incentive-based rocket car

As long as Jones has that and his health, he doesn't need anything else.

Not gonna bite, not gonna set the market.

He also didn't close the door completely. Jones bypassed Boras last time, it's possible he'd do it again although not likely.

He also didn't close the door completely. Jones bypassed Boras last time, it's possible he'd do it again although not likely.

That would be my guess as to Schuerholz's thinking. If I could hazard a guess, I'm supposing that in a few days he may extend an offer to Jones to talk one-on-one with a promise of "You won't be sorry."

Best Regards

John

I hope the Braves are still smart enough to offer arbitration. If he accepts, it's not the worst thing in the world to pay roughly market rates for a center fielder, and we could use the draft picks in the (more likely) case that he signs elsewhere.

coco crisp for sale...

Renteria for Crisp.

he's already got one.

Aww man. sigh, this is really heartbreaking

Crap, the Giants are going to sign him for 80 bajillion dollars now. Wonder if he can play 3rd...

The timing of the story seems to indicate it's more of JS saying, "bring in an agent who isn't looking for a moron to fleece or we won't be able to work together."

Another reason there is none better.

The Lillibridge era begins

Yeah, I'm not exactly champing at the bit for the Red Sox to trade with the Braves again after I was sure Boston had ripped them off in the Renteria deal. Coco would probably turn into DiMaggio if the Braves got him.

so, what do you think Boras' offer was?

RTFA:

It is believed that Boras was asking for at least seven years at close to $20 million annually.

-- MWE

Coco Crisp, eh? Maybe the Braves should trade Edgar Renteria for Andy Marte, and then trade Marte for Crisp.

Crap, the Giants are going to sign him for 80 bajillion dollars now. Wonder if he can play 3rd...

Andruw needs more seasoning before the Giants will look at him.

The Braves have a Pythag of 88-74. They have the #2 bullpen in the league. Third in runs scored, third in ERA despite horrible backend pitching ( though 6th in RA ).
If they stayed put, and added a mediocre arm, you would think they would be right in contention. But with Andruw going, they are going to have to make a big splash in the offseason. And I just don't see where that is coming from..

And god, we had the crummiest bench ever.

Stormcrow, you say they were third in runs scored, even with Andruw hitting .222/.311/.413 while playing full-time? So why worry about losing him, if they were third despite his horrible year?

Plus they'll have Teixeira for the full year next year instead of ThorMan for four months.

If they stayed put, and added a mediocre arm, you would think they would be right in contention. But with Andruw going, they are going to have to make a big splash in the offseason. And I just don't see where that is coming from..

Yeah, they need a starter and a now CF. Problem is Renteria is their only bona fide trade chip. Schuerholz is going to have to get creative.

Problem is Renteria is their only bona fide trade chip. Schuerholz is going to have to get creative.

My suggestion in comment#20 seems more and more obvious.

even with Andruw hitting .222/.311/.413 while playing full-time? So why worry about losing him

Still an Avg CF? And this year defensively, atleast visually, was his best in the last 3yrs or so. He saves a bunch of runs for the staff, and since Corrales has gone, he is in charge of positioning too. I would say in toto, he is something like 15-20 above average. Thats quite a hit, isn't it?

yea, Tex makes up a bit for Thor, but its unreasonable to expect Tex to put up a full season like this half season. But really more than the offence, its the pitching which is worrying. We need a magic push from a farm hand, or a creative trade.

I saw a split somewhere which outline that the Braves were amongst the worst teams in hitting after the 7th inning ( Cue their 1 run and extra inning losses ). I blame this entirely on the bench. It was vapid to say the least. We just can't afford to carry Orr and Woodward. Wonder if Aybar comes back.

My suggestion in comment#20 seems more and more obvious.

Wait..I have a brilliant idea! the Braves should trade Edgar Renteria for Andy Marte, and then trade Marte for Crisp

The Braves should sign Endy Chavez. Hopefully he can play for all 5 NL East teams in his career.

I think they go after Cameron; although he'll be a down-grade from AJ, he'll also be a lot cheaper. Who else needs a CF this winter? Rowand is probably more expensive but another option. somehow i doubt the Tigres would trade Maybin for one year of Renteria, but it is a nice fantasy.

I think Cameron too, and he surely can put AJ's #s from 2007 with similar defence. I won't be too bummed to see them go after Milton Bradley either.
If the braves have any advantage, it is a solid clubhouse. Bradley with Blanco as his caddy might just work.

EDIT : PLus he should do pretty well in the yearly Connect Four shootout

I bet he is a Ranger next year

All you hear in Dallas is that the Rangers and Torii Hunter are made for each other. Of course, who knows ...

All you heard last year was how Vernon Wells was essentially a Ranger already

Hunter is from Pine Bluff Arkansas. The Rangers are practically his hometown team.

On the other hand, Wells actually went to high school in Arlington Texas, and he resigned with Toronto, so you never know.

I don't know how much more Rowand is going to command than Andruw. As less of a saberhead than most here - but Rowand's offense this past year was way better than Jones's and I'd say their defense is similar. Andruw's arm is much better, but he's lost a step on running down balls. It wouldn't shock me if Rowand got the gold glove this year. If I was Scheurholzt I'd go after Rowand and "upgrade" the position.

I know that in today's game we're basically rooting for laundry, and as a Mets fan I never had any particular love for Andruw anyway, but this one strikes me as particularly weird. I just can't picture the guy not being a Brave.

I just can't picture the guy not being a Brave.

My take too. Despite all the criticisms, always been a big fan of him.

It wouldn't shock me if Rowand got the gold glove this year. If I was Scheurholzt I'd go after Rowand and "upgrade" the position.

Rowand is faster, but from what I have seen in limited exposure, not as good at coming forward on teh ball or catching sinking liners. I would be shocked if Andruw doesn't get the GG.
And Rowand has had 2 good years in the last 4. Plus he will be looking for a long contract. Let the Phillies bite on that..Much rather have 1-2 yr stopgap, and play Schafer from 2009 onwards

Andruw needs more seasoning before the Giants will look at him.

Didn't you hear, the Giants are going young next year! [tbs, espn]And Andruw has better numbers than Mays going into this season!![/tbs, espn] With Barry leaving, Magowan and Sabes are looking for a new "face of the franchise" (the Zito face isn't working out so great so far), and Andruw sure has himself a cute set of dimples. I'm calling it - 80 bajillion dollars over 10 years.*


* Offer void if A-Rod opts out.

I've gotta admit, while I generally side with the players I love Schuerholz's response here. Boras submits a contract offer, he looks it over, calls the player in and says in effect: "We've received your representative's proposal and we'd like to take the opportunity to thank you for your many contributions to our club over the years. However, we've decided to go in a different direction. Good luck with your future endeavors."

Actually, that's not really what happened; first Schuerholz ignored Jones's contract offer for several months. From the espn story:

Boras withdrew the offer, believed to be in the $20-million-a-year range, over the summer when the Braves never responded, Schuerholz said.

Not gonna bite, not gonna set the market.

So he couldn't submit a counter offer?

Hmm OPS+ last 4 years...
2004/5/6/7
Rowand = 126/93/87/125
Jones = 113/133/129/88

Clearly Jones is more consistent over that span, except for that giant falloff this year.
Jones is (supposedly..) 30 yrs and 6 months old
Rowand is 6 months younger.

And FWIW, I guess they could both get a GG this year since they give 3 OF awards and not RF/CF/LF.

Clearly Jones is more consistent over that span, except for that giant falloff this year.

Just eyeballing it, it looks like the entire reason for Jones's falloff this year was the 40 points of batting average, and whatever hits and XBHs would have come with that. That seems obvious, but my point is that I think it's likely he hasn't suffered a decline in actual ability at the plate.

Of course, even his best offensive seasons don't approach the top of the league -- not even his 50-HR year. Which is not to say he's not a valuable player as a CF.

So he couldn't submit a counter offer?

Why? Boras just would take it and shop it around. Why make Boras's job easier? Let somebody else set the bidding; that way you know what the market will look like--and whether it's in your range.

Best Regards

John

I think Andruw suffered from too many voices trying to fix his swing. There was even reports of Boras and his staff studying tape of Jones' swing and going over it with him over the AS break. Then you had Pendleton and Cox preaching their go the other way silliness.

By August and September he looked like a guy that was trying to do 35 different things at the plate. Just a mess.

I'm pretty sure he'll rebound and post a typical Andruw year next season -- .260 BA, 120-125 OPS+ with 40-50 HRs.

So he couldn't submit a counter offer?

I'll echo post 41. Why would Schuerholz do that? No counter offer that he could submit would have been acceptable to Boras. And this is exactly how Boras conducts negotiations - he doesn't counter offer either. He submits his asking price, gets offers, and if they're not close, he just ignores them and waits until the offers go higher.

Jones is (supposedly..) 30 yrs and 6 months old

Plus Andruw has played 155 games a yr in CF for 10+ yrs now + postseason. Thats ridiculous amount of mileage. One of the reasons he wants a long term contract, and one of the reasons Braves' don't want to hand him one.
And as far as comparisons, OPS+ is a bit unkind to Andruw because one of his assets is power, which is not best measured by OPS/OPS+.

Why? Boras just would take it and shop it around. Why make Boras's job easier?

Because this isn't about "Boras"? Because Schuerholz has an obligation to do what's best for the Braves?

And why couldn't Boras just "shop around" a fictional offer?

I'll echo post 41. Why would Schuerholz do that? No counter offer that he could submit would have been acceptable to Boras.

Hard to know that without submitting the counter offer.

And this is exactly how Boras conducts negotiations - he doesn't counter offer either. He submits his asking price, gets offers, and if they're not close, he just ignores them and waits until the offers go higher.

So "waiting" magically increases a player's market value?

Schuerholz decided that what's best for the Braves doesn't involve Andruw Jones. So why bother with a counter offer?

Because baseball teams have ways of verifying things. It's not hard to call someone in the Braves organization, or someone who knows someone in the Braves organization, and find out whether or not the Braves actually made that offer Bora$ is claiming they did. Organized baseball is a club, and word gets around.

Previous comments are spot-on -- there's zero chance any Bora$ client is going to sign an extension without hitting the open market, and giving Jones any offer before free agency begins is only going to give Bora$ extra ammunition.

For this same reason, I wouldn't hate the idea of the Braves seeing whether someone (like, say, the Yankees if they fail to reach the World Series again, or maybe the Mets or Tigers) might pay full sticker price for Mark Teixeira. Teixeira won't be a Brave in 2009.

Hard to know that without submitting the counter offer.

No, I think it was pretty easy to know that. The Braves couldn't even approach Boras' initial offer.

So "waiting" magically increases a player's market value?

Apparently. It's worked for Boras.

Schuerholz decided that what's best for the Braves doesn't involve Andruw Jones. So why bother with a counter offer?

I don't know; why paint Boras as Evil, instead of just admitting that your decision had nothing to do with Boras, and you simply thought the organization should go in a different direction?

Schuerholz obviously has a good idea of what the market value will be for a player, with or without Boras's help. It looks like Schuerholz simply made the reasonable decision that it was better to go in a different direction than to pay market value for a CF heading into his 30s. That's not Boras's fault.

I wouldn't say the decision had nothing to do with Bora$ -- Bora$'s presence certainly establishes that the price will be extremely high -- but it's certainly reasonable to look at Jones' performance record, consider the price (which is probably going to be Carlos Lee money, in the 6/100 range), conclude there's no reason at all to pursue keeping him around, and focus your attention on other things.

#50:

I'm not sure what you mean by "painting Boras as evil." How did Schuerholz do that? By stating that he asked for far more money than the Braves thought wise to pay? Well, that's the truth. (Or so I've been led to believe, and have no reason to believe otherwise.) What's so evil about that?

I'm not sure what you mean by "painting Boras as evil." How did Schuerholz do that? By stating that he asked for far more money than the Braves thought wise to pay? Well, that's the truth. (Or so I've been led to believe, and have no reason to believe otherwise.) What's so evil about that?

Well, obviously I don't mean Charles Manson evil, so your focus on that word is annoying. In any event, Schuerholz had two fundamental choices:

(1) Try to sign Jones at or around market value; or
(2) Decide that it wasn't the best course for the Braves to sign Jones at market value.

Schuerholz obviously made the second choice, which is a perfectly reasonable decision... and a decision that has nothing at all to do with Boras.

So rather than simply say that his decision had nothing to do with Boras -- which of course it did not -- Schuerholz implied that it did, by carrying on like this:

Schuerholz said the team got an offer from Jones' agent, Scott Boras, last December but never seriously considered it.

Boras withdrew the offer, believed to be in the $20-million-a-year range, over the summer when the Braves never responded, Schuerholz said.

"What that did was to signal what we could fully expect," the GM said. Asked how much Boras was asking for, Schuerholz held his right hand over his head. "I can't reach that high," he quipped.

Unless Schuerholz is an incompetent GM, his decision didn't have the slightest thing to do with Boras. If Schuerholz is interested in re-signing the player, he engages in serious negotiations and doesn't let whatever personal feelings he may have towards Boras interfere with his obligation to his employer. If Schuerholz is not interested in re-signing the player, he does not engage in serious negotiations.

If Schuerholz is not interested in re-signing the player and wants to make a spectacle of himself in front of the media, he carries on in a manner such as the above.

I have no clue where you are trying to go with this. How did Schuerholz make this "about Boras?" He said that Boras' asking price (and by extension, Jones' asking price) was too high. It is not about Boras, it is about Boras' offer. That sounds reasonable to me.

God that's a load of nonsense, Ray. We all know Schuerholz is not an incompetent GM, so let's not play cute. And Boras's initial demands are not "the market rate." Schuerholz is just doing his job. The decision does have something to do w/Boras, who is well-known for getting the most money for his players. He's known for that in part b/c other agents aren't as successful as he is. Perhaps another agent doesn't start at $20 mil/per? It's not personal, Ray, it's business. As an Italian, you should know that. This Sicilian is disappointed in you.

Hunter is from Pine Bluff Arkansas. The Rangers are practically his hometown team

There are probably 10 to 20 Braves and Cardinal fans in Pine Bluff for every Ranger fan.

The Braves should sign Endy Chavez. Hopefully he can play for all 5 NL East teams in his career.

Bruce Chen is only a Marlins contract away from yelling Yahtzee first.

Endy Chavez gets bonus points for playing with both the Expos and Nationals though.

And as far as comparisons, OPS+ is a bit unkind to Andruw because one of his assets is power, which is not best measured by OPS/OPS+.

Since when? Last I heard OPS will overrate power hitters. The 400/450 guy is more valuable than the 350/500 guy.

If Schuerholz is not interested in re-signing the player and wants to make a spectacle of himself in front of the media, he carries on in a manner such as the above.

Shuerholz has a fan base to whom he is obligated. Not signing a player with the career of Andruw Jones requires some explanation on his part and he has more to lose professionally from slagging one of his guys than talking about a contract offer.

The 400/450 guy is more valuable than the 350/500 guy.

And I thought the 350/500 guy was more valuable, because thats a significant difference in power. Am not close to an expert, but this is what I remember reading, and it sort of blends with what I thought abt it. If I am wrong, won't be the first or last time

Perhaps Schuerholz is hedging his bets that Andruw will, at the very least, want to keep open the possibility of returning to the Braves. By doing this, Schuerholz puts Andruw/Boras in the position of reducing their contract demands to do so. Seems like a reasonable tactic, if that's what it is.

Hunter is from Pine Bluff Arkansas. The Rangers are practically his hometown team

Hunter now lives in Prosper, Texas, a far-far-North Dallas suburb. But as with Wells, the money may outweigh the commute ...

"There are probably 10 to 20 Braves and Cardinal fans in Pine Bluff for every Ranger fan."

Quoting and italicizing is feuding with me in preview mode. Anyway, I'm an Arkansan, so I just wanted to throw in my perspective. Arkansas has been huge fans of the Cardinals for decades. The Arkansas Travelers were a minor league affiliate of the Cardinals for so long, and until recently were the only game in town. People were raised with Cardinals games. Even though the Travs are Angels affiliates now, no one I know of follows the Angels.

I've always been surprised at the number of Cubs fans in the state. There are only a few Braves fans that I've noticed. There are maybe a handful of Astros or Rangers fans. As I remember, Torii always said he loved Dallas, it being so close to home, and would love to play in Texas. He might consider playing in Texas as "being home", but I don't think the state would think that unless he was a Cardinal.

Well I don't know anything about Torii Hunter's "hometown team," but this summer I read that he grew up rooting for the Braves.

The 400/450 guy is more valuable than the 350/500 guy.

And I thought the 350/500 guy was more valuable

All other things being equal, the .400/.450 guy is more valuable, by, oh, 5-8 runs or so over 600 PA.

I remember facing Adam LaRoche while playing Winter Ball in Puerto Rico in 2003. Before facing him, I had seen several at-bats, how he took BP, the open stance, the hands, etc....

Well, I was convinced that the way to pitch LaRoche was to continue to throw sinkers away and not really vary much of anything. I didn't really need to "set him up" (plus, in my mind, I didn't really have the velocity to challenge him inside). I was particularly sure that the end result would be some sort of rolled over ground ball to his pull side as he seemed unable to really hit the ball the other way with any kind of authority. So, the long-awaited confrontation occurs, and quite predictably, he did ground out to second in a 3 or 4 pitch at bat where I tried to throw the same pitch in the same spot. IIRC, the only thing I varied was my arm slot on one pitch (I went over the top on one pitch).

Anyway, the point of this story is that Andruw, for about 5 of the 6 months this year, seemed unable to hit the ball the other way. I remember watching Braves' games and repeatedly telling myself, "why would ANYONE risk a pitch on the inner half to Andruw?" He just seemed like he was just not willing to consider hitting the ball the other way, with at-bat after at-bat ending on ground balls to short.

Against most decent hitters, usually the pitcher who works mostly away needs to give the impression that he's willing to come inside in order to change the hitter's attention zone, eye level, "move his feet", etc.... With Andruw for most of this year, it just seemed like a waste to throw anything on the inner 3rd. I don't know if it was mechanically related or not. It looked like his approach is what needed to be fixed.

Andruw, good luck in San Fran....

Torii Hunter, just to pursue a loose thread, was supremely miserable in Pine Bluff, a story often told. He lives in the Dallas exurbs now, so Dallas is home. I don't know if he followed the Cardinals, Braves, Rangers, or whoever as a youth; I reckon he has been a Twins fan for several years now :)

Yeah, I'd say anyone would be supremely miserable in Pine Bluff.

Because this isn't about "Boras"? Because Schuerholz has an obligation to do what's best for the Braves?

And why couldn't Boras just "shop around" a fictional offer?

I think clubs are a little more leery of Boras's 'phantom teams' after the alleged 5 year/$75 million for Kevin Millwood offer never materialized.

As to 'what's best for the Braves' setting a high market for Jones by countering (if he really wants to retain Andruw he couldn't do a lowball counteroffer lest Boras use it as a "They don't really want you at all so let's [forget] the Braves") is best for the team because it drives up the market across the board including any arbitration eligibles Atlanta may have. It's "Hey, Schuerholz thinks a great fielding .222/.311/.413 CF is worth $15 million a year--In that case, Jeff Francoeur (assuming he's eligible for arbitration) who batted .293/.338/.444, while not playing as crucial a defensive position but is seven years younger must be worth ...."

I'm sure his agent will be able to dig up some defensive metric that will "prove" Francoeur is almost as good defensively as Jones therefore a $10 million arbitration filing looks downright reasonable.

Don't forget, Carlos Lee (114 OPS+ career) making $16.7 million a year and Vernon Wells (107 OPS+ career) averages $18 million per is why Boras feels that Jones (career OPS+ of 115) is worth $20 million per annum. I don't think anybody feels Wells and Lee are worth that much so why confirm their market value by countering?

To not drive up their own costs thereby creating a situation where you can assemble a quality roster without blowing the budget is in the Braves' best interests.

Best Regards

John

He also didn't close the door completely. Jones bypassed Boras last time, it's possible he'd do it again although not likely.

The last line of the article suggests Schuerholz might have tried going around Boras and directly to Andruw, and it didn't work:
""[Jones] knew there was open communication," said Schuerholz, adding that at some point Jones "reminded me that his agent is taking care of his contract."

By August and September he looked like a guy that was trying to do 35 different things at the plate. Just a mess.

Andruw had returned to form over the summer. Then he hurt his elbow, and needed a cortisone shot, and sucked again thereafter, pretty much immediately. He started a hitting streak on June 26 (though the endpoint is still somewhat arbitrary), and was hurting enough on August 3 to need a shot:
--June 26 to August 2: 266/356/547 in 149 PA
--August 3 to end of season: 229/293/371 in 191 PA

Within the span of his entire year that middle stretch is the outlier; however, that middle stretch is very, very similar to his recent career numbers. It looked to me like he'd figured out what was going wrong, and gotten his game back after a brutal start. But then something started to hurt badly, and from that point on he sucked again.

As I posted in the other thread, I think Schuerholz wants all other teams to know the Braves are not interested so that they can commence bidding, and hopefully someone will finalize a deal before JS would have his hand called on whether to offer arbitration.