I don't understand.

I'm scared.

i still fondly remember arguing with mets fans at shea about who the best shortstop in new york was. the convoluted arguments they come up with as to ordonez's not only being better than jeter but by far better were great to hear. this is not meant to be indicative of mets fans at all, by the way, just on fans in general and the silly things we can convince ourselves are true.

This has to be a list of the 50 worst Mets of all time, or this makes no sense at all.

Should Ordonez even make the list for Top 50 Devil Rays?

Not to be snide or anything but how high is the bar? Have there actually been 50 Mets who were good? Now, if Ed Kranepool makes the list I would have a problem.

There were 25 better Mets on the 1986 team.

I can see this. Ordonez is 12th on the Mets' list of games played, 3rd in Runs Created among shortstops, and won three Gold Gloves. The Mets frequently won 88+ games a season and made the playoffs twice with Ordonez, so he couldn't have drug down the club THAT much with his hitting.

i still fondly remember arguing with mets fans at shea about who the best shortstop in new york was. the convoluted arguments they come up with as to ordonez's not only being better than jeter but by far better were great to hear.

As a Met fan I HATED ORDONEZ, and most of my fellow met fans did likewise- I remember hearing ad nauseum from Yankee fans complaining about Met fans who would favorably compare Ordonez to Jeter- but I never actually met any of these imaginary Met fans*.

* I remember one caller to M & MD who insisted Rey Rey was better- but I assumed he was an Evil Empire fan "parodying" what he imagined Metrs fans were saying

You must have been hanging out with a better class of Met fans, JP. I can happily provide you with the name and contact information of people who told me that of course Rey was better than Jeter. Sure, Derek hit .300 something, but Ordonez hit .250 and made at least a play a game that Jeter never even came close to--probably two!

I'll grant that by the end of the '97 season (when Ordonez hit .210 or something) most had come around to concede Jeter was probably better, but at least one would claim they were probably of equal value

There really haven't been as many good players as you would think. This was the lesson I got from James' lists of the top 100 players at each position. Pretty quickly you get into "Really?" territory.

I suspect the same is true for lists of the best players for each team - especially for a newish team like the Mets. I don't know if Rey Ordonez is one of the 50 greatest Mets of all time, but it wouldn't surprise me either.

but Ordonez hit .250 and made at least a play a game that Jeter never even came close to--probably two!

If Rey was as good as his rep (he wasn't) and Jeter as bad as some metrics say (I don't think he is), then Rey hitting .250 would have been in the same ballpark as Jeter, same ballpark but still significantly inferior

I can happily provide you with the name and contact information of people who told me that of course Rey was better than Jeter.

Given the sheer number of Mets fans I have no doubt some existed- I never met any- all the Yankee I knew worked with back then simply assumed Met fans thought Rey Rey was better- they knew I didn't, but that didn't stop them from saying things like, "hey why do your fellow Mets fans like St Rey so much, I mean he can filed, but better than Jeter?" Me: "no one things he's betetr than Jeter"
"Sure they do", "name one"... "umm uh, my cousin's boyfriend... from Pittsburg"

Conversations with my fellow Met fans, went like this, "god Rey sucks, can't they play someone else?" "do you know anyone who thinks he's betetr than Jeter" No? Me neither, where do they get this crap from?"

It was pretty funny. There were Met fans who felt that Rey Rey's D justified his bat
- but none I knew who thought it made him a star.

The player Met fans used to insist (especially when dealing with Yankee Fans) was better than Jeter was Edgardo Alfonzo.

One of the times the Mets "made the playoffs with Ordonez" was in 2000 when he played about 1/4 of the schedule. Mike Bordick (traded for Melvin Mora, at the time it seemed reasonable) was the shortstop for most of the playoff games.
Ordonez could well be number 50. Bill James noted in his "1992 Abstract" that the Mets were low on players with long careers on the team. Ed Kranepool was (and still is) the career leader in hits, although terrific young talent like Wright and Reyes should surpass Sourpass Eddie easily.
I can remember plenty of Mets fans calling WFAN in 1996-2000 saying Ordonez was the new Ozzie Smith. I always thought they were as stupid as the Yankee fans several years earlier who called saying Don Mattingly saved 100 runs a year with his glove.

Rey Ordonez and Tsuyoshi Shinjo are probably my two favorite Mets of the 90s - both were just incredibly fun to watch play, and both seemed like fun guys to hang out with. I remember his first game against the Cardinals pretty well, and the fanboy in me says he was Ozzie's class defensively. Eh, too bad he couldn't hit.

Looking at his stats, I'm amazed he slugged 487 as a Ray. Granted, 117 ABs, but man, Rey's a terrible hitter.

It always struck me as ironic that Ordonez attacked as stupid the Mets fans who didn't overvalue him.

That said, I loved watching him play defense. I hated watching him try to bunt.

I like Jose Reyes more.

I wish Eric had included the near misses (51-55), so we could get a sense of who battled Rey for that final spot. Great piece though.

Like JPWF13, I have never known a single Mets fan who thought Ordonez was better than Jeter. There was a reason Ordonez lashed out at the Mets fans - they all thought he sucked and booed him mercilessly.

It's my experience that Yankees fans are far more concerned that Mets fans acknowledge the Yankees greatness, relinquish their right to any real or perceived suggestion that a Met might be the equal of a Yankee and surrender to the superiority of the Yankees than Mets fans are with actually comparing the two teams. I'll never forget listening to WFAN during the 1999 season - it seemed like every caller was either (a) a Mets fan excited about their team or (b) a Yankee fan telling Mets fans not to be excited about their team because the Mets sucked in comparison to the Yankees.

i still fondly remember arguing with mets fans at shea about who the best shortstop in new york was. the convoluted arguments they come up with as to ordonez's not only being better than jeter but by far better were great to hear. this is not meant to be indicative of mets fans at all, by the way, just on fans in general and the silly things we can convince ourselves are true.

Yeah, and I can still fondly remember Yankee fans who insisted that Jeter was as good as A-Rod and Nomar during the Trinity era.

The convoluted arguments they come up with as to Jeter not only being better than A-Rod and Nomar but by far better were great to hear. This is not meant to be indicative of Yankee fans at all, by the way, just on fans in general and the silly things we can convince ourselves are true.

The player Met fans used to insist (especially when dealing with Yankee Fans) was better than Jeter was Edgardo Alfonzo.

Absolutely. The Mets sabermetrically inclined had been arguing before Rey even appeared in the scene that the proper middle IF combination should have been SS Edgardo Alfonzo and 2B Quilvio Veras. That was the on-going theme that ran for 5+ years as Rey was sucking outs in our lineup.

"Yeah, and I can still fondly remember Yankee fans who insisted that Jeter was as good as A-Rod and Nomar during the Trinity era."

Except that Jeter and Nomar were pretty similiar in terms of production until 2000. It's amazing that despite no one respecting Bpro's fielding numbers any more, their myth about Jeter being a terrible fielder in his early career still lingers on.

It's amazing that despite no one respecting Bpro's fielding numbers any more, their myth about Jeter being a terrible fielder in his early career still lingers on.

Seems that John Dewan found the same thing about Jeter when he was developing his defensive metrics at that time.

"Seems that John Dewan found the same thing about Jeter when he was developing his defensive metrics at that time."

Funny that Dewan found that and neither UZR or ZR did.

Yeah, and I can still fondly remember Yankee fans who insisted that Jeter was as good as A-Rod and Nomar during the Trinity era.

Didn't young Nomar, in spite of having more range than any other shortstop I've seen a significant number of games from other than Everett, actually grade out somewhat poorly defensively as well? Not Jeter poorly, but no great shakes either.

You must have been hanging out with a better class of Met fans, JP. I can happily provide you with the name and contact information of people who told me that of course Rey was better than Jeter. Sure, Derek hit .300 something, but Ordonez hit .250 and made at least a play a game that Jeter never even came close to--probably two!

Funny thing, in 2003 this was literally true.

Funny that Dewan found that and neither UZR or ZR did.

Yeah, funny that Dewan and the BP people saw that. How's UZR for Jeter vis-a-vis Nomar and A-Rod during that time? I wasn't aware of a single metric that didn't see Jeter as anything less than bottom of the pack defensively.

I recall pretty well that A-Rod consistently beat Jeter at the defensive metrics available at the time. Of course, that wouldn't be enough to placate the Yankees fans who insisted that if "you watched the game, it would be obvious that Jeter was a great defensive SS."

Didn't young Nomar, in spite of having more range than any other shortstop I've seen a significant number of games from other than Everett, actually grade out somewhat poorly defensively as well? Not Jeter poorly, but no great shakes either.

Yes, that's true.

If I recall correctly, the metrics that the statheads favored at the time saw A-Rod as very good (which along with his unbelievable offensive output at the time made him by far the best SS in the game), saw Nomar as below average (Red Sox fans were not happy about that as Nomar had a great reputation at the time), and saw Jeter as terrible (led Yankee fans to tell statheads to get their heads out of a book and watch a game once in a while).

"How's UZR for Jeter vis-a-vis Nomar and A-Rod during that time? I wasn't aware of a single metric that didn't see Jeter as anything less than bottom of the pack defensively."

Jeter's ZR #s for 97-99: -2, +5, 0. IIRC, his UZR #s are similiar. Since I don't have Nomar's defensive runs anywhere, Nomar's ZR during 97-99: .825, .839, .813. Jeter's ZR during 97-99: .816, .840, .855. Jeter had 89 BRAA during that period, Nomar had 92. They were almost identical in production during that period, and depending on what you valued, you could absolutely argue for either player being better.

"I recall pretty well that A-Rod consistently beat Jeter at the defensive metrics available at the time"

I didn't say anything about A-rod. Anyone who compard Jeter to A-rod outside of 1999 was a fool and probably resorted to the count the ringz! arguement.

And more relevant to Ordonez, the metrics saw Rey as average. Which upset the Mets fans, who told the statheads that they didn't know anything about baseball if they didn't see the defensive greatness of Rey.

And more relevant to Ordonez, the metrics saw Rey as average.

I could see an argument that Ordonez was, at the time, the most exciting defensive SS in baseball. There were definitely Met fans that used the words "Ozzie" and "Smith" describing his defense.

The mere mention of Ordonez on Usenet sparked some of the most brutal flamewars. Half the group was screaming that he was the worst player in baseball, and the other half was screaming that he was a #8 hitter, a great defensive player, and that he didn't need to hit at all to be one of the best SS in baseball. IIRC, Dial (in a rare moderate position) posted that in 1999, his defense really was good enough with his putrid hitting to make him as good a player as "league average."

Every once in a while, I really miss Doug Pappas, a man I never met in person. He would have definitely had some interesting things to say re: Ordonez.

Yeah, and I can still fondly remember Yankee fans who insisted that Jeter was as good as A-Rod and Nomar during the Trinity era.

The convoluted arguments they come up with as to Jeter not only being better than A-Rod and Nomar but by far better were great to hear. This is not meant to be indicative of Yankee fans at all, by the way, just on fans in general and the silly things we can convince ourselves are true.

i was going to copy, word for word, jp's response about not knowing any yankee fans who did this, but that'd be an outright lie. heck, the jeter/a-rod thing still hasn't worked itself out, has it?

Conversations with my fellow Met fans, went like this, "god Rey sucks, can't they play someone else?" "do you know anyone who thinks he's betetr than Jeter" No? Me neither, where do they get this crap from?"

It was pretty funny. There were Met fans who felt that Rey Rey's D justified his bat
- but none I knew who thought it made him a star.

the people i always argued with were mildly drunk and excited to be watching the mets and yanks duke it out. i have no idea if a majority of mets fans believed this in their more sober, reflective hours, but i can definitely say that my best friend (a mets fan) insisted until like 2001 that rey was better than jeter solely because of his glove.

Yeah, and I can still fondly remember Yankee fans who insisted that Jeter was as good as A-Rod and Nomar during the Trinity era.

A-God the Father, Jeter Christ and the "Holy Crap I Can't Believe I Turned Down 4/60."?

Best Regards

John

I think a good argument can be made that the 4 year/$19M contract the Mets gave to Ordonez was one of the all-time worst, adjusting the dollars for the year, etc. That was certainly a key part to the Mets crash, as they doled out big money, long-term contracts to mediocrities (Ordonez, Zeile, Appier, assorted 30-something middle relievers, etc.) to plug short-term holes. I have long suspected the key reason we never seriously pursued Arod as a FA was that we had already wasted his money on those guys.

I have long suspected the key reason we never seriously pursued Arod as a FA was that we had already wasted his money on those guys.

Partly, the other was the Wilpon tendency to decide certain things in advance,
this year we will buy the guest FA no matter who it is,
this year we will consolidate, no big deal, "go bargain hunting",
this year we will trade all our chips for a push
this year we will hold on to all our chips.

These decisions were made seemingly at random, without regard for
1: The particular players available any given year
2: The players who are not available now, but will be in a year
3: The quality of the trading chips to be given up (or not given up)
4: The actual position of the team- competitive, not competitive, rebuilding, etc.

The result was that AROD (who publically stated he wanted to play in NY) became available during a time when the Wilpon's decided they were not spending that much $ on one player- and Phillips was more than happy to oblige by seemingly sabotaging the AROD negotiations.


What's suprising is that the Wilpons are not the only ones guilty of this- many teams seem to operate in thsi manner, for instance Hendry has admitted that this year the Cubs made a decision to identify the best FA and get him (without getting into whether or not Soriano was the best available this year- let's assume he was)- why this year? Is the best guy available this year better than someone available next year? I don't think those questions were asked.

I have to come down in the middle on these points. The Met fan masses didn't despise Rey for most of his tenure. Nor did the masses think he was as good as Jeter. But, some did. If you're not exactly the type of person who is going to sit down and count Extrapolated Runs, it's an easy argument to make, mixing together facts, emotions and hopes. Rey drove in 60 runs one year, and hits .250, which is good enough -- shortstops don't need to hit anyway, their whole job is defense! Ozzie Smith was a defense-only SS who eventually became a hitter, so Rey is going to do that too! Jeter is overrated -- "people think" he's as good as A-Rod, but he's not even close! Etc. etc. etc. Talk radio talk, basically.

The fans only turned on Rey once 1) his fielding got significantly worse due to injuries; 2) it became clear that his hitting wasn't going to follow Ozzie's path; and 3) he turned on them.

The amazing thing about Rey was that you'd think a little guy who could field and had zero power would at least "do the little things," but he didn't at all. Well, he could kind of run before the injuries, but that was it. He was a bad bunter, he was a terrible hit-and-run man, and especially after he lost the speed, he routinely grounded into double plays. It always seemed like he struck out a lot too, although he really didn't, but he struck out more than you like a guy who hits one homer a year to strike out, anyway. Who knows, but I felt like he could have at least been better at that stuff; either he didn't know his offensive limitations, or didn't really care.

And the sad thing is that the Mets' history with hitters is such that I can see this ranking. I mean, he wasn't the 50th most talented Met in any way whatsoever, but if you're making service time a huge part of the equation as Neyer did in his lineup book, then yeah, you probably end up having to list him.

Have there actually been 50 Mets who were good?

No.

Have there actually been 50 Mets who were good?


See who was selected 50th, and you decide.

However, I guess I wonder if we go through most of the franchises, if the 50th best player would be of the Ordonez quality too.

Yeah, and I can still fondly remember Yankee fans who insisted that Jeter was as good as A-Rod and Nomar during the Trinity era.

Projected into the actualized future, only one of the Trinity remained a shortstop. Just saying.

One man's history of hating Ordonez:

Some Mets fans definitely loved Ordonez. And yes, you did hear that "he saves one run a game" crap. The love affair waned with the Mets' fortunes, even though he was pretty much the same player throughout his Mets career.

I loved him for about two months - I went to his first game on Opening Day in 1996 where he did actually save a run and the game with a jaw-dropping relay throw. That same summer I was taking Bill James books out of the library and by the next year Ordonez was by far my least favorite player. It was an unconventional view at the time.

What was in a way worse than the simple boneheadedness of loving Ordonez for who he was was the tremendous amount of faith that the average fan had in his ability to improve. Every spring the sports pages were awash with simplistic theories on why this would be the year that he would finally put it together at the plate: because he's concentrating on hitting ground balls, because he's concentrating on hitting line drives, because he's using a different bat, because he's putting on muscle, because he's slimming down.

Ordonez briefly won me back in 1999, when he had the best month of his life in June. There was also a lot of goodwill floating around because he was the keystone to what was being touted as the greatest defensive infield ever. He also seemed unusually clutch (60 RBIs on the year but most of them probably due to Roger Cedeno batting one spot ahead) and with this June surge almost overtook Barry Larkin in the all-star voting. But he slumped worse than usual in the second half and by September I remember getting into an argument in 1999 with my freshman roommate, taking the point of view that the Mets would be better off if Ordonez got injured and Luis Lopez started instead.

As an aside, I considered Luis Lopez the Fortinbras to Ordonez's Hamlet, the virile and determined hero contrasted with the nervous and weak protagonist. Surely Luis Lopez wouldn't have left his wife and children in Cuba and start a new family almost immediately after arriving in America! In 1997 Ordonez's hitting was so awful that late in the season Lopez began to steal starts from him, and a rivalry was born. The rivalry ended in what should have been Lopez's glorious conquering moment, when he gave Ordonez a black eye on the team bus. Unfortunately the brawl ended his career with the Mets. Of course, this incident engendered a new springtime theory on why Ordonez would start hitting next year: fighting Lopez had finally made a man out of him.

Anyway, that season that started off best for Ordonez ended at an his absolute nadir in a Mets uniform, when he popped up two attempted sacrifice bunts in the playoffs during very tight moments. The next year by chance I was in Los Angeles and I attended the game that Ordonez was lost for the season by injury making trying to turn a double play. I don't think I actually jumped up and cheered but I do remember privately savoring the moment. Probably one of the most callous moments of my life.

The following winter was the first time I starting writing on internet message boards. On Fanhome, which got a pretty mainstream collection of fans, I immediately distinguished myself by setting down a soapbox and making two of my highly controversial opinions known: first, that Kevin Appier wasn't worth $40 million, and second, that Rey Ordonez was an awful player. Even this late in his career Ordonez was considered a good player by a majority of Mets fans.

Rey Ordonez once threw a frozen pumpkin through my car's rear window.

Actually, I don't know it was him, but I assume it was. I don't know that it wasn't.

It was either him or Jaime Navarro.

1: BBREF is awesome under team pages they have cumulative stats for every player who played for a team, including the Mets

2: Rey Rey was not the 50th best Met
3: Rey is 14th in career plate appearances as a Met (with 3124) !!!!!!!!!!!!
4: Among the top 50 Mets by plate appearances Rey is 49th in OPS+ at 59 (only Doug Flynn is worse at 57
5: There are only 79 Mets in history with more than 1000 PAs, Rey REy is 76th amng them in OPS+
The three who are "worse"? Doug Flynn, Roy McMillam and Tom Seaver...
Let's add 25 points as a position credit and for his glove- 59 becomes 84- and moves him up to 67th

AND we haven't even discussed pitchers yet.

There are 36 pitchers with more than 400IP as Mets, 24 have ERA+ of 100 or more- I think EVERONE of them is better than Rey Rey.

He's a top 100 all time Met based solely on service time.
Top 50, no way,. no effing way

Rey Ordonez once threw a frozen pumpkin through my car's rear window.

Actually, I don't know it was him, but I assume it was. I don't know that it wasn't.

my godmother insists that john mcenroe stole her car battery at the us open one time. my godmother is not important enough to be stealing car batteries from, so i have no idea why she thinks this.

Rey Ordonez once threw a frozen pumpkin through my car's rear window.

He would have done this a lot more, but man, Olerud was some first baseman. Saved a lot of those and turned 'em into outs.

Ah, Rey Rey. To me, he is a great example of Reason # 37 why some prospects don't make it: they don't try hard enough. Most of them work their butts off and get more than anyone could ever have imagined out of every physical gift bestowed on them. But a few of them, for whatever reasons, think they already are all they need to be when they arrive in the majors, and especially when they have a starting job. And their drive to improve is just about nil.

From everything I know about Ordonez, that about describes him to a T. Lord only knows how good he could have been with Jose Reyes's attitude -- improving as a hitter is no easy thing, and he might have gotten only 5% better even with the best work ethic. But I suspect he would actually have been a reasonably decent major leaguer had he given a damn, though we'll never know, because . . . well, because he didn't.

The Mets' treatment of him was briefly a model of how to do it right: show patience with a young player's struggles. Give him time to learn and adjust, including (if necessary) learning how hard he has to work at it. If you bear with it, you may end up reaping a very nice dividend. That's how it has worked out with Reyes, and how I hope it will work out with Milledge.

But then they didn't realize in Ordonez's case fast enough that the time for patience is not unlimited, and there comes a point where you just have to recognize what you don't have. Instead, they gave him a fat contract totally unjustified by his performance (or, by that time, even by his remaining potential).

He was fun to watch in the field, from the standpoint of pure aesthetics. That's about the extent of the positive things to be said about Rey Ordonez.

It's my experience that Yankees fans are far more concerned that Mets fans acknowledge the Yankees greatness, relinquish their right to any real or perceived suggestion that a Met might be the equal of a Yankee and surrender to the superiority of the Yankees than Mets fans are with actually comparing the two teams. I'll never forget listening to WFAN during the 1999 season - it seemed like every caller was either (a) a Mets fan excited about their team or (b) a Yankee fan telling Mets fans not to be excited about their team because the Mets sucked in comparison to the Yankees.

I grew up a Mets fan in Westchester and live in NY now. My general experience with Yankee fans has been that it isn't enough for you to acknowledge the Yankees are the superior team. They want you to *like* it. They take it personally when you root against the Yankees. As though it's inconceivable that someone could dislike the team that has the highest payroll and has dominated the sport for the last decade.

I remember my little brother (who was 12 or 13 at the time) loved Rey Ordonez when he first came up. And it was understandable--Rey was a terrible hitter but he made some plays in the field that were jaw-dropping for their athleticism and creativity. He claimed that Rey was "the next Ozzie Smith" and probably would have argued that Rey was better than Jeter, but like I said, he was only in middle school at the time.

Is there a minimum AB total the player has to compile to be considered? Otherewise, I don't see how Rey-0 is here.

Is there a minimum AB total the player has to compile to be considered?

Don't see why there should be, value is value, no matter which metric you prefer. This guys metric of choice seems to be WARP3, Ordonez had 18.9 as a Met. I'd be surprised if that was in the top 100 in Met history.

This spot should have gone to El Sid or Benny Agbayani.

I love Eric Simon's work at Metsgeek and at AmazingAvenue. But there is no way Rey is Met #50. If I had to estimate, I would put Ordonez at #121329. He ranks among the top 5 of my least favorite Mets of all-time.

Anyway, on why I will always despise Dallas Green, Joe Mac, and Rey.
Turn back the clock to 1994. You have Vizcaino and Kent manning your middle IF.
You have 3 young players coming up in the minors.

Player A:
.460/.479 Rookie ball
.430/.434 Low A
.436/.440 SAL
.427/.394 AA
.340/.315 AAA

Player B:
.433/.423 Rookie
.388/.443 Low A
.366/.409 FSL
.369/.460 AA

Player C:
.343/.408 FSL (age 22)
.283/.351 AA
.266/.294 AAA

WHAT KIND OF DRUGS must you be smoking to conclude from this that you should trade Player A, move Player B to a new position, and give outright Player C the everyday SS position. What kind of LUNATIC would think that makes sense for a franchise in shambles and misery?

Rey Ordonez derailed the Mets future and then served as a millstone during the peak period. Has anyone done as much damage to a franchise? Argh.

Don't see why there should be, value is value, no matter which metric you prefer. This guys metric of choice seems to be WARP3, Ordonez had 18.9 as a Met. I'd be surprised if that was in the top 100 in Met history.

When doing a comprehensive list like this, I think you should have to serve a decent chunk of time with the team in question in order to be identified with the team.

And the 1000 PAs mentioned up above seems way too small of a cutoff point. Less than 2 seasons makes you an all time great of a team?

Ordonez was so bad with the bat that he's actually the worst hitter in the history of the franchise according to VORP at -18.1.

That just about says it for me. One dimensional glove men are always in abundant supply in the minor leagues. To the extent that Ordonez was one of the Mets all-time higher ranked shortstops, it is only because he was allowed to occupy the position for several years. Jose Oquendo was an excellent fielder and a better hitter than Ordonez. He was justifiably was sent packing in favor of Ron Gardenhire and Rafael Santana.

Rey Ordonez derailed the Mets future and then served as a millstone during the peak period. Has anyone done as much damage to a franchise? Argh.

Hey kid, ya ever heard of Jim Duquette? Anyway, Ordonez also suffered the ill-timed injury in 2000 that resulted in the departure of Melvin Mora.

IIRC, Dial (in a rare moderate position) posted that in 1999, his defense really was good enough with his putrid hitting to make him as good a player as "league average."

Actually that was his position up to 1998. In an attempt to defend it he started the work that his led to all of the ZR to runs stuff that he now does.

From the intro to the first post on the subject:

"As a Mets fan, I really enjoy watching Rey play defense. Anyone traveling through the asb-mets group has seen a Rey ROOLZ! thread. We split into two teams, shirts and skins. No, it was statheads and morons. Unfortunately, I had to be the captain of the moron side.

After many skirmishes and many moron casualties (fortunately, we have infinite resources; just add WebTV), the battle came down to one thing: does Rey's defense make up for his bat?"

And then published the results -- which didn't support his position (38 runs below the average starting SS in the NL iirc)

Chris published the results for years. Rey never came out as the worst regular in the game, but IIRC he only had a single year when his glove was good enough to make him an average regular.

And the 1000 PAs mentioned up above seems way too small of a cutoff point. Less than 2 seasons makes you an all time great of a team?

The Mets have had shockingly few players play a long time for them considering that they've been around for 40+ years.

The problem is that if you raise the cutoff to 2000+ PAs you automatically ahve to rank St Rey as one of the all time "great" Mets- but the SOB had NEGATIVE value as far as I can see. If a player only played one full year with eth mets- but was actually GOOD for that season I'd rank him over Rey Rey

As an addendum to Sam's (excellent, of course) #41, am I wrong in remembering that one of Rey's biggest problems as a hitter was that he was under the impression he was Albert Belle and that all he had to do to hit those 50 HRs was just keep swinging for the fences?

Ok move the cutoff to batters with 1800 PAs, and add 5 points to Rey Rey's OPS+ and he's 38th among non- pitchers.
For pitcher's move the IP bar up to 540, and 20 of those have had ERA+ of 100 or better.

The only way he is the 50th "best" Met of all time is if you exclude all but 50 players based upon PA and IP. Which means that he's simply NOT one of the 50 best Mets of all time.

#49 is Gilkey so apparently there isn't that much of a cutoff.

One thing I remember about Rey was that, because he never hit more than 1 HR a year with the Mets, it was always a treat if you actually got to see that HR. I was at a game where he hit one that looked like it was going out, but it hit the top of the LF wall instead.

This guys metric of choice seems to be WARP3, Ordonez had 18.9 as a Met. I'd be surprised if that was in the top 100 in Met history.

Ok - who are they? Seriously, give me 50 better Mets - from a purely WARP3 standpoint. I'm genuinely curious if they're out there.

Current Mets who beat him - David Wright and Tom Glavine. 48 to go. This shouldn't be too hard.

For those who are actually interested, there is no PA or IP cutoff for inclusion. The list is weighted heavily by aggregate career value with the Mets, so a player with less-than-stellar value over a prolonged period of time can still make the cut despite never being a "great" player with the team. Someone else's list might concentrate that value or otherwise weight players by their peak seasons with the Mets, and I'd love to see that list, too.

#49: Bernard Gilkey

Ah, Gilkey brings back fond memories. The Cards had a ridiculous farm system back in the days. They had Gilkey, Lankford, and I think of couple of other prospects come up all at the same time. The Mets poached Gilkey from the Cards. Really, considering his record up till he came to the Mets, you have to consider his rest of his career a mild disappointment.

1996 was finally the light at the end of the tunnel of the dark ages of the Mets. The teams were so bad for so long that it seemed like we would never be good again. Out of nowhere, Gilkey and Lance Johnson put up fantastic seasons, and Todd Hundley had his career year. Those three carried the rest of the team with them, including this lightweight young SS who would continue to plague the Mets for many years. And a good young 2bman was just coming into his own...

Ordonez clocks in at 33rd on the Mets' all time Runs Created list. That's without giving him any positional value for playing SS, or defensive value for playing SS well.

I don't know about WARP3. Here's a list off the top of my head:

Seaver, Piazza, Koosman, McGraw, Mazzilli, Hernandez, Gooden, Darryl, Carter, Olerud, Ventura, Darling, Aguilera, Orosco, McDowell, Saberhagen, Agee,Stearns, Jefferies, Fernandez, Bonilla, Cleon Jones, Neil Allen, Wright, Glavine, Kingman, Matlack, Zachry, Steve Henderson, Mookie, Rusty, McReynolds, Ojeda, Cone, Magadan, Hundley.

It's not 50 yet, but i need to go to work.

Seaver, Piazza, Koosman, McGraw, Mazzilli, Hernandez, Gooden, Darryl, Carter, Olerud, Ventura, Darling, Aguilera, Orosco, McDowell, Saberhagen, Agee,Stearns, Jefferies, Fernandez, Bonilla, Cleon Jones, Neil Allen, Wright, Glavine, Kingman, Matlack, Zachry, Steve Henderson, Mookie, Rusty, McReynolds, Ojeda, Cone, Magadan, Hundley.

Leiter, Franco, Alfonzo...

For those who are actually interested, there is no PA or IP cutoff for inclusion. The list is weighted heavily by aggregate career value with the Mets,

In that case, Rey Rey should be ranked somehwere around # 999th...

Seriously super quick and dirty ranking:
take all Mets' OPS+ subtract 50 (super low replacement level) and multiply by PAs.
Rey Rey is 103rd (among non-pitchers)
Give Rey Rey 25 points additional to his OPS+ and try again- he comes in 37th among non-pitchers.

Unless he was Ozzie defensively (he wasn't) he just does not crack the top 50, no way no how.
Use total runs created- Rey Rey is 35th (14th in PAs...)
as someone else pointed out his career VORP was NEGATIVE- as a hitter he was worse than the replacement level SS.
85 Mets had 100 RC as Mets, Rey Rey's RC/27 outs is 84th out of those 85 (Doug Flynn was worse)


The only player who gives Rey Rey competition for worst Met ever is Flynn (who ironically like Rey Rey was erroneously regarded for awhile as an acceptable hitter because of a fluke 61 rbi season)

Hemner, I count 36. Let me add 15 more.

HoJo, Reyes, Bobby Jones, Jeff Kent, Jose Vizcaino, John Franco, Benny Agbayani, Rick Reed, Turk Wendell, Al Leiter, Rickey Henderson, Mike Hampton, Frank Viola, Hubie Brooks, and of course Cliff Floyd.

Ok, but many of those guys don't actually beat Ordonez on WARP3 - which was the stipulation of the poster I quoted. I'm somewhat skeptical that there are 50 guys who have him beat from that perspective. Are there 50 guys who are ahead of him by that rubric?

John Olerud
Mike Piazza
David Wright
Darryl Strawberry
Lance Johnson
Carlos Beltran
Bobby Bonilla
Keith Hernandez
Benny Agbayani
Edgardo Alfonzo
Robin Ventura
Bernard Gilkey
Cliff Floyd
Dave Magadan
Steve Henderson
Howard Johnson
Kevin McReynolds
Rusty Staub
Eddie Murray
Jeff Kent
Lenny Dykstra
Art Shamsky
Lee Mazzilli
Jose Reyes
Cleon Jones
Gregg Jefferies
Todd Zeile
John Milner
Joel Youngblood
Tim Teufel
Tommie Agee
Frank Thomas
Todd Hundley
Butch Huskey
Roger Cedeno
Ron Hunt
Gary Carter
Joe Christopher
Mookie Wilson
George Foster
John Stearns
Wally Backman
Dave Kingman
Ed Kranepool
Ron Swoboda
Hubie Brooks
Jim Hickman
Wayne Garrett
Felix Millan
Ken Boswell
Jerry Grote
Bud Harrelson
Tom Seaver
Jesse Orosco
John Franco
Bret Saberhagen
Al Leiter
Dwight Gooden
Jon Matlack
Rick Reed
Jerry Koosman
Tug McGraw
Sid Fernandez
David Cone
Tom Glavine
Bob Ojeda
Frank Viola
Ray Sadecki
Steve Trachsel
Gary Gentry
Jim McAndrew
Ron Darling
Bobby Jones
Pat Zachry
Nolan Ryan
Dave Mlicki
Craig Swan

Let's do an easier list. My all time least favorite Mets:

1. Vince Coleman
2. Rey Ordonez
3. Mo Vaughn
4. Pete Smith
5. Doug Flynn

Let's do an easier list. My all time least favorite Mets:

1) Bobby Bonilla
2) Bobby Bonilla
3) Bobby Bonilla
4) Bobby Bonilla
5) Bobby Bonilla

Ok, but many of those guys don't actually beat Ordonez on WARP3

BPro uses an absurdly low replacement level-

Rey Rey was NOT 245 runs (defensively) better than the replacement SS during his career
Just about everyone thinks BPro's fielding metrics need work- and on Rey Rey they really jumped teh shark.

Rey Rey had about 56 winshares as a Met- Bud Harrelson had over 120- how many Mets had more than 56? Hopw many averaged more per year than Rey Rey?

17 Mets ACTIVE in 2006 have more than 56 career winshares (not all as Mets)
Just by eyeballing it the following active Mets have more WinsHares as Mets in their careers than Rey Rey: Glavine; Beltran; Floyd; Trachsel; Wright; Reyes

I have a problem with both number 50 and 49, it seems to be fairly influenced by his era so far, but Eric's series is very interesting and well written.

My all time least favorite Mets:

Any list that doesn't include Juan Samuel is incomplete.

BPro uses an absurdly low replacement level-

I'm not defending WARP3 - I agree it's a silly stat. I'm just responding to APNY's point.

Win shares is a pretty mediocre stat too I suspect, but I'd be interested in seeing how many players beat out 56 career win shares with the Mets. That's a much harder query for one to run I suspect however, given that historic win shares aren't freely available online. I suspect it's more than 50 however.

Let's do an easier list. My all time least favorite Mets:

1) Roberto Alomar
2) Rey Ordonez
3) Mo Vaughn
4) Bobby Bonilla
5) Carlos Baerga

I have a problem with both number 50 and 49,

Well to be fair, Gilkey did have 1528 PAs as a Met- 50th all time as a Met
AND his 1996 had the 8th highest OPS+ by any Met and if you use a 1000 PA cutoff his OPS+ of 118 as a Met is 14th all time.

Assuming a 30/20 Hitter/pitching split
Gilkey has to be close to # 30 (my half-assed calc in #61 above had him 37th among non-pitchers)
FWIW His WARP3 matches Rey Rey- in half the playing time

Let's do an easier list. My all time least favorite Mets:

1. Vince Coleman
2. Rey Ordonez
3. Mo Vaughn
4. Pete Smith
5. Doug Flynn

No Robbie Alomar???

No Robbie Alomar???

Jim Fregosi?
George Foster?

5) Carlos Baerga

I can't really hate Baerga. True, he sucked during his time with us, but it was as mysterious to him as it was to all of us. He was always a pretty enthusiastic and optimistic guy who enjoyed playing baseball. Too bad he just stopped hitting midway through his career.

Why is it that always happens to the Mets?

Same reason why I can't hate Super Joe. True, he sucked. But by all accounts, he was a pretty well respected person.

Yes, I know that Smith and Flynn weren't terrible people either, but they truly sucked.

Let's do an easier list. My all time least favorite Mets:


1) Richie Hebner
2) Roberto Alomar
3) Mo Vaughn
4) Doug Sisk
5) Randy Tate
6) Rick Baldwin
7) Shawn Estes
8) Juan Samuel
9) Frank Taveras
10) Tony Fernandez
11) Mike Stanton
12) David Weathers
13) Rey Sanchez
14) Vince Coleman
15) Eddie Murray

No Robbie Alomar???

Robbie Alomar was a tragedy. He falls under the "Most Disappointing Mets" category but not under least favorite Mets.

And I know that these views differ from fan to fan, but it seemed to me like Alomar tried everyday. He just couldn't hit the ball very far.

He should have been our all time best 2Bman, rivalling Alfonzo. How is it that we had Kent, Baerga, and Alomar pass through and in all 3 cases we had them at the wrong time? What are the odds?

Same reason why I can't hate Super Joe. True, he sucked. But by all accounts, he was a pretty well respected person.

So then how can you not hate Alomar? He was awful, and worst of all, he didn't even seem to try.

Every time Roberto Alomar dived headfirst into first base, a part of me died. Plus he moved Fonz off second.

My Carlos Baerga hatred was more irrational, I mean, I was eleven or so then. I didn't yet understand his enthusiasm or anything, I just saw lots and lots of outs.

How is it that we had Kent, Baerga, and Alomar pass through and in all 3 cases we had them at the wrong time? What are the odds?

Considering the way the Mets were managed during many of thos years, probably pretty good.

1) Richie Hebner

Before my time.

2) Roberto Alomar
See reply to OFF

3) Mo Vaughn

#3. Can you believe that Steve Philips decided that Mo Vaughn was healthy from a half hour of batting practice swings? A half hour of batting practice swings! Steve Phillips was not a smart man.

4) Doug Sisk

He was effective for a time.

5) Randy Tate
6) Rick Baldwin

Before my time.

7) Shawn Estes
Yech. Yeah, I didn't like him, but he did beat Clemens.

8) Juan Samuel
Fair enough.

9) Frank Taveras
Before my time.

10) Tony Fernandez

My memory was that he was okay for us. Had a horrible start, I believe.

11) Mike Stanton

Yep. Move him to #4 on my list.

12) David Weathers

Disagree. He gave us a lot of solid years.

13) Rey Sanchez
He was Rey Ordonez II, without having everything handed to him on a silver platter. If Ordonez had served a similar role, I wouldn't have disliked him as much.

14) Vince Coleman

All time least favorite Met. Who was the genius who thought that bringing Vince Coleman from the hated Cardinals would be a good idea?


15) Eddie Murray

Absolutely, positively disagree. In fact, I think Murray was one of the better Mets in history. For a while, he was the *only* decent Met. I shudder to think how much of torture those Mets would have been without Murray.

By WARP3. he's behind: 1)Backman, Olerud, Piazza, Wright, Strawberry, Bonilla, Hernandez, Alfonzo, Ventura, 10)Magadan, S. Henderson, Hojo, McReynolds, Staub, Dykstra, Mazzilli, Cleon Jones, Milner, Youngblood, 20)Agee, Hundley, Hunt, Carter, Mookie, Stearns, Kranepool, Garrett, Grote, Harrelson 30)Seaver, Orosco, Franco, Leiter, Gooden, Jon Matlack, Rick Reed, Koosman, McGraw, Sid Fernandez, 40) Cone, Glavine, Trachsel, Darling, Bobby Jones, 45)Swan

So by this metric he's 46th (using only names listed in this thread, maybe some were missed), color me surprised, just ahead of several clearly "greater" Mets who had/have less PT (Reyes, Beltran, Sabes, Floyd and Gilkey for starters).

Considering he has Gilkey ahead of Ordonez, he's clearly making some sort of peak adjustment, so I don't see how Ordonez cracks the top 50 using this metric, but he's close.

So, overall, considering WARPs appraoch to defense would favor Rey over any other metric, i'd say he's not a top 50 Met.

FWIW His WARP3 matches Rey Rey- in half the playing time

At this rate, first place might be same WARP3, but in two AB? I don't think that's possible.

Oddly enough, when I think of my least favorite Mets, one of the first names that pops into my head is Ron Hodges. Not for anything in particular he did (which was little enough), but the fact that they kept him around for 12 seasons, despite the fact that he topped .700 in OPS only twice (and only one of those came in a season in which he recorded more then 50 ABs), become the perfect emblem for me of the ineptitude of of the late 70s/early 80s Mets. Every Spring, my hopes for a new direction for the team would be dashed when I realized that, once, again, they'd brought that stiff back.

Hmm, all-time least favorite Mets. I suspect had I been older in the 70s that Flynn and Taveras would make the list, and I guess I never really liked Taveras, but a 10-year old has only so much hate in him.

Here's my quick and dirty list, though I'll add that "hate" is a strong word. Many of the guys I end up disliking aren't really bad guys, of course. You'll note I have a strong bias against role players who can't play and stick around too long. I disliked Leiter and Franco at the end of the rope, but they earned too much good will for earlier performances to add.

1) Rey Ordonez
2) Joe McEwing
3) Joe Orsulak
4) Vince Coleman
5) Lenny Harris
6) Butch Metzger
7) Derek Bell
8) Alex Trevino
9) Ed Lynch
10) Tommy Herr
11) Mike Marshall (the hitter)
12) Kevin Elster
13) Dick Schofield
14) Charlie O'Brien
15) Rico Brogna
16) Mel Rojas
17) Gerald Williams
18) Jose Lima
19) Jason Tyner
20) Bruce Berenyi

Oddly enough, when I think of my least favorite Mets, one of the first names that pops into my head is Ron Hodges. Not for anything in particular he did (which was little enough), but the fact that they kept him around for 12 seasons,

I almost included him, and for the same reasons.

Worst Mets hitters, Runs Created Above Position, career



Kranepool is worst in RCAP (comparing Ed with other first basemen and Rey with other SS), but Rey is easily the worst in RCAA (Runs Created Above Average, comparing all players with league averages). How many runs did Ordonez save with his glove? Probably not 107...

Raskolnikov,

My list was purely and solely subjective.

PS -- How old are you? I'm slightly surprised that Richie Hebner & Frank Taveras were before your time.

I don't care what WARP3, VORP or RCAP have to say about it, there's no way I put Rey Rey ahead of Sidd Finch.

I don't care what WARP3, VORP or RCAP have to say about it, there's no way I put Rey Rey ahead of Sidd Finch.

What a curious case... :)

I'm slightly surprised that Richie Hebner & Frank Taveras were before your tim>

I started following the Mets just after this period - (and I thank the Gods every day). I still could catch the suckiness of Doug Flynn in the Expos uniform so I could only imagine the damage he was wreaking on the Mets, and the Bill James' Abstract comments didn't help Flynn any.

In all fairness, Flynn was a Gold Glover in 1980 & the contract extension he signed that offseason was a further signal that the Grant regime had, indeed, been entombed...

Like JPWF13, I have never known a single Mets fan who thought Ordonez was better than Jeter. There was a reason Ordonez lashed out at the Mets fans - they all thought he sucked and booed him mercilessly.

No, they didn't. Chris Dial and I can tell you, from over on usenet, the large number of Mets fans who were convinced he was Ozzie Smith. (If you assume he was as good as Ozzie defensively, and you evaluate his offense solely by batting average, it doesn't look so loony.) He got the nickname St. Rey from the few statheads over there because there were so many people who felt he could do no wrong. "He's so good defensively that anything he does with the bat is a plus" was a typical quote.

"Ordonez clocks in at 33rd on the Mets' all time Runs Created list. That's without giving him any positional value for playing SS, or defensive value for playing SS well."

Isn't he well into the negatives?

There are definitely 50 better Mets than Ordonez. Not that many more, but there's more.

The amazing thing about Rey was that you'd think a little guy who could field and had zero power would at least "do the little things," but he didn't at all. ... I felt like he could have at least been better at that stuff; either he didn't know his offensive limitations, or didn't really care.

That was the true tragedy. A one-time Class AA teammate of his told me that he and his teammates couldn't understand how a guy with so much ability had so little relative success. Bobby Valentine was a pretty good judge of talent and he always believed Ordonez had the ability to do more with what he was given. Keith Hernandez described Ordonez as a "kook."

All that said it was very exciting to watch Ordonez play in the field.

Once you get past the first, I dunno, 15 Mets (or most teams for that matter), how do you rank the rest of them with any precision?

"Ordonez clocks in at 33rd on the Mets' all time Runs Created list. That's without giving him any positional value for playing SS, or defensive value for playing SS well."

Isn't he well into the negatives?

Only if you have a baseline
Raw Runs Created he's 33rd-35th-
if you have runs created above average he's negative
if you have runs created above replacement level-even using BPro's way too low replacement level- he's negative.

Basically as a hitter he was worse than the average AAA Shortstop.
This is how scarily bad a hitter he was- in his best full season he put up an OPS+ of 69
Neifi Perez beat that 3 times in full seaons (4 if you count 1997- 344 PAs)

Plus OPS+ gives him credit for his absurd # of intentional walks (he batted in front of the pitcher) and doesn't dock him for a suprsing # of GDPs- he was also inept at small ball- a terrible bunter and a poor baserunner (28 sb, 24 CS)

His career EQA was .214

He was a flashy fielder and had an immense ego- after leaving the Mets and Steve Phillips (who LOVED Rey Rey) other teams looked at him and decided his best role was back-up MI, late inning defensive replacment- he balked at that.

The worst production by any team at any position in 2006, was the Cubs SS position: .599 OPS: .246/.275/.324- Rey Rey's career #s: .246/.289/.310 .599 OPS

That pretty much sums up Rey Rey, give him 500+ PAs and you almost guaranteed that you'd have a lineup sinkhole worse than any other team's.

Chris Dial and I can tell you, from over on usenet, the large number of Mets fans who were convinced he was Ozzie Smith. (If you assume he was as good as Ozzie defensively, and you evaluate his offense solely by batting average, it doesn't look so loony.) He got the nickname St. Rey from the few statheads over there because there were so many people who felt he could do no wrong. "He's so good defensively that anything he does with the bat is a plus" was a typical quote.

Ah yes. The good old days on asb.nymets.

No, they didn't. Chris Dial and I can tell you, from over on usenet, the large number of Mets fans who were convinced he was Ozzie Smith. (If you assume he was as good as Ozzie defensively, and you evaluate his offense solely by batting average, it doesn't look so loony.) He got the nickname St. Rey from the few statheads over there because there were so many people who felt he could do no wrong. "He's so good defensively that anything he does with the bat is a plus" was a typical quote.

I remember - I was there. Most Mets fans definitely went through an evolution of thought with regard to Ordonez. In the beginning, he had a lot of supporters and while there were certainly many who thought as you describe, my recollection is that most of Ordonez's defenders (including myself at the time) basically just thought (incorrectly as it turns out) that his defense was good enough that it compensated for his offense so that he was a useful player overall. I can't remember any argument in particular where a Mets fan thought Ordonez was better than Jeter, though I'm sure that there were a few wackos who held this opinion, though they were in the extreme minority. By 1999/2000 though, I think that most fans had grown weary of Ordonez and saw him for what he was.