That's not the half of it -- one of William Bray's descendants is Reds lefty Bill Bray.

“Went to Stoke Ch. This morning. After Dinner Went to Miss Jeale’s to play at Base Ball with her, the 3 Miss Whiteheads, Miss Billinghurst, Miss Molly Flutter, Mr. Chandler, Mr. Ford & H. Parsons & Jelly. Drank Tea and stayed till 8.”

Good Golly Miss Molly, sure like to ball...

Bray (the reliever, not the dead Englishman) was at the premiere of the documentary mentioned in the article at SABR back in June. He had no prepared words. Later that night he gave up a run in a third of an inning in a 6-0 loss to the Indians. Clearly, his mind was on the significance of his ancestor's discovery.

The 3 Miss Whiteheads made a hell of a defensive outfield.

So is any reference to the words "base ball" just automatically taken to mean the precursor to the game we know today? I know nobody would claim that it's exactly the same, but without a description of the game it could be a game of tag played with a ball.

FWIW, the Brits have a sport called Rounders, which is pretty similar to baseball (I have no idea when it originated). It is largely considered a girls sport.

to play at Base Ball with her

How do we know this wasn't just lifted from a Lance Linden post? I mean, Base Ball? Dead giveaway.

So is any reference to the words "base ball" just automatically taken to mean the precursor to the game we know today? I know nobody would claim that it's exactly the same, but without a description of the game it could be a game of tag played with a ball.

Apparently. I was going to post much the same thing. Can we stop (not here, I mean in general) getting all in a tizzy every time someone finds some reference to "base ball" or the like? I've never really seen the BFD anyway, and especially with this "America's pastime really English?" business. I've taken it as established since I was a kid that baseball descended from rounders. If someone found drawings in King Tut's tomb of Julio Franco standing on second base, it wouldn't faze me in the least.

Guapo, the closing remark is priceless. Also, Molly Flutter is a hell of a name for a pitcher.
Jelly as well.

I grew up in England in the mid-18th century. "Play at Base Ball" was our term for an orgy. "Miss Molly Flutter" was a euphemism for something that would make Ozzie Guillen blush.

something that would make Ozzie Guillen blush

A subtle turn of phrase?

Rusty, in my neighbourhood, "Miss Molly Flutter" was a euphemism for a young lady whose virtue was easy, or at least easy on the purse, and whose attendance at a Game of Base Ball was most heartily desired. And if she were not so young, nor so much a lady, no matter, so long as the virtue was either easy or not so dear. I think the most esteemed Senor Guillen would not be turned ruddy, for it was recently the practice his charges to have a latex substitute for Our Dear Molly in their workplace and his customary weatherbeaten visage turned not a shade.

Can we stop (not here, I mean in general) getting all in a tizzy every time someone finds some reference to "base ball" or the like? I've never really seen the BFD anyway, and especially with this "America's pastime really English?" business. I've taken it as established since I was a kid that baseball descended from rounders. If someone found drawings in King Tut's tomb of Julio Franco standing on second base, it wouldn't faze me in the least.

To each his own. As a baseball fan, who was born in England, and who has a degree in English, this subject fascinates me. If it doesn't fascinate you, you are free to ignore it.

It is fascinating to see the words "Base Ball" appear at such an early date, but I agree with Jeff. You can't mistake the word for the thing.

I would hope this doesn't excite too much interest among historians of the game, because it's essentially their job to place language in context and not assume the word is the thing. The excitement of these one-off discoveries generally derives from reading a whole bunch of present ideas about "baseball" back into the word - ideas which would have been completely meaningless and incomprehensible to Bray, the Whiteheads, et al.

Yeah, to be clear, I'm not against, in the least, researching the origins of baseball. I'm just a little tired of "zomg this says base ball" articles. Even worse, the more of these we get, the more it simply shows that there were a ton of things called this, bearing varying actual relationships to what we call baseball.

The Franco line was a throwaway that probably misstated how I actually feel.

the original manuscript found in the British Museum

Wow, they found it at the museum! What luck!

As a baseball fan, who was born in England, and who has a degree in English, this subject fascinates me.

Do you also favor a certain kind of pool shot, muffin, and horn?

FWIW, the Brits have a sport called Rounders, which is pretty similar to baseball (I have no idea when it originated). It is largely considered a girls sport.

Rounders is almost exclusively played by British primary school children (between the ages of 5 and 11), boys and girls.

There are some similarities to baseball, though it's closer to softball as the ball is delivered underhand. One key difference is that there are 4 bases, not 3, and rather than go back to home a batter must get to 4th base (a few yards to the left of where the batsman stands) to score a run.

I find this interesting. Perhaps I don't read enough of this history, but to find an earlier historical reference to a term long applied to the particular game we know as baseball has to be historically interesting. You have the same name as a term we use. You have a game referred to which may be a game we already know (but not "baseball") being referred to by nickname or alternative term. Or, you may have a separate, more primitive version of our game. How can this not be interesting?

According to the Wikipedia page, this isn't the earliest reference to baseball.

The earliest known description is in a 1744 British publication, A Little Pretty Pocket-Book, by John Newbery.[2] It contains a wood-cut illustration of boys playing "base-ball," showing a baseball set-up roughly similar to the modern game, and a rhymed description of the sport.

To add to Richard's point, the rounders bat is much shorter and is held one-handed, no? I don't remember the fourth base not being where the batter stands. But in any case I wouldn't consider that a significant difference, more a practical one to avoid collisions. I seem to remember girls playing the game as the summer sport at school after 11, while boys played cricket. But my memory has let me down before.

At primary school, we also played a game called "racing rounders", IIRC. Where the batter had to run all four bases to score a run - no stopping at any base allowed - and to get an out the fielding side had to get the ball from first base to second to third to home, or fourth base, without dropping it. When you played with girls throwing and catching, you were disappointed not to score a run.

To add to Richard's point, the rounders bat is much shorter and is held one-handed, no?

Yes, and when you get a hit, you do not drop your bat. You run with it and touch the bases with it, because the bases (at least when I played) are not flat but are poles about 4 feet high.

I seem to recall if you dropped your bat you were out, but I may be wrong.

Yes, and when you get a hit, you do not drop your bat. You run with it and touch the bases with it, because the bases (at least when I played) are not flat but are poles about 4 feet high.

Ee, you must have gone to a posh school. We used jumpers for bases.

Yes, and when you get a hit, you do not drop your bat. You run with it and touch the bases with it, because the bases (at least when I played) are not flat but are poles about 4 feet high.

You Brits can complicate anything, can't you?

One key difference is that there are 4 bases, not 3, and rather than go back to home a batter must get to 4th base (a few yards to the left of where the batsman stands) to score a run.

Out of curiosity, why is this a "key difference"? If I'm reading it right, it just means that there's one home plate for the batter, and one for scoring runs, and they're a few feet apart. How would this change things all that much?

Out of curiosity, why is this a "key difference"? If I'm reading it right, it just means that there's one home plate for the batter, and one for scoring runs, and they're a few feet apart. How would this change things all that much?

Okay, sue me, it's not a key differece, just a difference. That said, you have a 4th baseman there rather than a catcher.

Oh, and hitting the ball behind you (and not being caught by the catcher or, more accurately, backstop) means you can go to 1st base.

25 years since I last played. Time flys.

Do you also favor a certain kind of pool shot, muffin, and horn?

Never played pool, yes, and whatever Alan Civil played on "For No One".

I'll take "Things that are English" for $200, Alex.

At the Toronto SABR convention a few years ago I saw a talk by David Block, the author of Baseball Before We Knew It, and bought a copy. It's about the origins of baseball. Really interesting stuff. Among the points therein:

- modern baseball was invented in the late 19th century. We knew that. Before that the game was still developing, and had several bat-and-ball ancestors that were all branches from the same tree. Whatever game the guy was talking about in his letter probably isn't a whole lot like baseball as we know it. For instance, Julio Franco was just a rookie.
- baseball did not come from rounders. Rounders is yet another branch from the tree, but not one that led to baseball specifically.
- the term 'base ball' was introduced into the language well before the term 'rounders'. The idea that baseball came from rounders is, if I remember correctly, Henry Chadwick's contribution, because he knew rounders from his youth and learned baseball as an adult.
- bat-and-ball games go way the flip back into the reaches of antiquity and it's really hard to find out anything about their origins or even their rules. There was something that people now call 'longball' but I don't know how it was played.
- the guy traced some of the earliest mentions of the term 'base ball' (including the Jane Austen one) to the area around Reading in England. The aforementioned 'Little Pretty Pocket Book' is supposed to be the earliest mention of all.

Nos reddemus filium Orosco statim, et omnes LOOGYs de Mets, et Rule 5 acquisitions que nobis liberate fuerunt in securitatem PTBNL.

In the big inning God created the heaven and the earth...

Rounders is almost exclusively played by British primary school children (between the ages of 5 and 11), boys and girls.

There are some similarities to baseball, though it's closer to softball as the ball is delivered underhand. One key difference is that there are 4 bases, not 3, and rather than go back to home a batter must get to 4th base (a few yards to the left of where the batsman stands) to score a run.

Close enough. Show those kids (and their parents) Barry Zito's contract, and start them playing baseball!