His parents and a doctor familiar with the case

What are the doctor's credentials?

If the parents knew he was going through depression why didn't they get him help?

How are his parents an authority on the psychological affects of steriods?

Was there anything else in his life that could have parcipitated this?

Registration free version.

Post 2 was pretty good.

(Copying my own old post):

The New York Times apparently has some deal with Google where stories linked from Google News don't require registration. The only downside I can see is I think you get one popup ad. It's well worth it, in my opinion (even though I'm registered with NYT), so when I link to NYT stories I try to use the Googled version (you can tell because it has "partner=GOOGLE" in the URL).

When something like this comes up, you can just do a Google News search on the headline, and it should pop up. That's what I did here.

Alright.......back to the article.

Here's my take on this one: Article seems to imply lots of things that I think are open to discussion.

"Steroid rages" -- Conventional thinking is that the hormone changes associated with steroids cause aggressive outbursts. This article seems to be in line with that thinking (nice kid punching the floor in anger, etc.) On the other hand, isn't it possible that his rages were tied to the mental issues and lack of confidence this kid obviously felt? He did commit suicide, after all.

Also, the majority of guys who think steroids are a good idea also seem to think that beating the #### out of someone is a good idea, in my experience. Thus, the correlation between steroid takers and aggressive ######## can be explained as such: (often) aggressive ######## take steroids and become more aggressive.

Depression and steroids / suicides: Again, there conjecture about steroids messing people up and causing them to commit suicide. My thought is this: similar to the above point....people with esteem issues are more likely to commit suicide and people with esteem issues are more likely to take steroids. The correlation between the two groups seems inherent, to me.

Don't get me wrong. I am not a steroid apologist or one who denies the dangers associated with them. I just don't buy in 100% on the topics of steroids and personality / personality disorders.

One interesting side effect of the Internet is that oftentimes the distancing that is necessary to see a bigger picture gets lost. His death was certainly a horrible tragedy, and I'm certain that his friends feel a lot of pain. I've had friends who committed suicide and I can relate. However, I would be more prone to punch someone in the nose who dared to say "so and so killed himself because of this one reason." It's never so simple.

No one kills themselves just because they broke up with a girl friend, lost their job, or were in a post-steroidal depression. These may all be contributing factors, but to point to something like that as "the reason" the suicide happened is to trivialize it, to dishonor the memory of the deceased, and potentially to attempr to absolve oneself of a feeling of guilt for not having done more to prevent it.

I find it hard to view the suicides I've known in a dispassionate manner, but that's how they have to be seen to be understood. Emotion is real, and it's important, but it's not a good basis for understanding complex issues like steroid-induced depressions. The flip side of every attack on posters here for their dispassion is that if the ones who were posting from emotion were to talk about the suicides that I have known, they would be the ones doing so from a dispassionate viewpoint while I'd be reliving the pain of the death.

So, if you are going to ask that people here put themselves in your shoes, you also have to take a moment to reflect on what it's like to wear the shoes of the people who initially posted. Before the death of your friend, the posters here are who you were. And moving on in life, for the vast majority of tragedies you hear about, that's who you will once again be.

Well, this random thread callback is no fun at all.

It's a trap!

tay- we miss your smile buddy, take care

It seems that Don Hooton is new to primer and didn't know how easy it is to post mutiple times.

The guy lost his son to suicide and you ridicule him? Ted, whoever you are, you must be an #######.

The guy lost his son to suicide and you ridicule him? Ted, whoever you are, you must be an #######.

Not just any a-hole, tfbg9, but a major league one.

Can I add something that's probably apples to the oranges discussed in any anabolic steroid discussion?

I was on Prednisone on several different occasions for several different ailments, and, while Pred isn't an anabolic, if some of the side-effects of that drug are similar to those of anabolics, please know that unless you have a legitimate medical reason for taking them, you should avoid them completely. While on this horrible drug the ailments I suffered from improved and went into remission, but during that time, I was irritable and edgy to the point that my personality changed from being somewhat easy going and jovial to a complete nasty prick. Ask my wife. That I'm not divorced today is a testament to her patience and understanding. Besides the edginess and irritability, there was depression. Luckily, I recognized it for what it was, and was able to get through it, especially after my regimen ended. Other families haven't been so fortunate.

Go to Mr Hooton's website, via the "homepage" link he provided. Parents especially.

Well said Dave...I completely agree.

MWE: Your post was extremely callous. You really ought to be ashamed. Talk about mindless moralizing.

penguinmobile: You make some very interesting points, and I agree generally with the idea there is no "one" reason for suicide. There are, however, "triggers" that can precipitate suicide. That is, there might be a reason or two that are more than the others led to any particular decision to commit suicide. And as you probably know, the scientific community believes depression entails chemical elements of human physiology. As someone with first-hand experience with depression, the idea that a drug could lead to depression, and thus "trigger" a suicide, is not unfounded.

I'm going to turn myself into the grammar police immediately.

Great post, Joe. As an interesting aside to your point three, I was with a friend once when his sister gave birth to a baby in the family bathroom. NO ONE, not me, not my friend, not her family, knew she was pregnant until we went running into the bathroom to see why she was screaming. I told my mom the story, and how I couldn't believe no one in the family knew, and she said that was actually quite common, especially in her day (50s, 60s) before abortion became more prevalent. It's amazing what kids can hide from their folks. Whacking off in the bathroom strikes me as another thing typically kept from the folks.

As someone with first-hand experience with depression, the idea that a drug could lead to depression, and thus "trigger" a suicide, is not unfounded.

Certainly. I'm well aware of the depressive effects of anabolic steriods, and I also have plenty of first hand experience with depression. In fact, I just wrote two paragraphs describing the circumstances of a couple of serious depressions I've experienced. I delete them because I didn't want this post to be about me.

My point is not that steroid use isn't a potentially dangerous trigger for depressive episodes, but that the article promotes the idea that the steroids are what made him choose suicide, when it really was the depression. Two teens I knew who killed themselves were drunk when they did it, but it has never occurred to me to blame alcohol for their deaths. In fact, I got drunk at the same party one of them was at, and I didn't go home and shoot myself. Maybe if she'd been sober she wouldn't have done it, but I don't think blaming the beer is productive. It may have exacerbated her suicidal thoughts, and likely lowered her inhibitions and clouded her judgement, but the real questions to me are: what led her to the point where should would even contemplate it under any circumstances? and: is there anyway that her coping skills could have been strengthened so that she would never have reached that point? (I didn't mean to only focus on one of the suicides I referred to be, but that's the one that bugs me the most, largely because of having talked to her about an hour and a half before she did it without a clue of what was coming...)

So, Don can rightfully tell me that I'm insensitive to his pain and I should go #### myself, but I think that any discussion of teen suicide needs to focus on the underlying causes of it. The triggers, be they drugs, events, or ongoing circumstances, are important, but the best prevention is in raising kids who are better able to handle the effects of whatever may trigger suicidal depression. As I write this, I literally have shuddered imagining how I might react if my own son (20 months and counting) chose to take his own life. I hope I can help him avoid that horrible path.

it's a sad commentary that so many of the comments here are merely pointing fingers at who's fault the tragedy is.

A tone that was set in the linked article, in which people attempt to lay the blame entirely on the drug.

For those comparing this thread with the JHW thread, I think you need to bear in mind the difference between public and private lives. JHW chose to live as a sort of celebrity, and thus a different set of legal rules applied to his life, and a different set of "taste rules" applies to his death. Besides, no one here said anything half as mean about him as what his own brother did. Clearly, it's apples and oranges.

Don, I am sure you are a very good father and that you raised your son right. I'm terribly sorry about his death and I do honestly feel for you. I hope you can see that what I'm saying is not written out of insensitivity to your pain, but out of an attempt to understand the bigger pattern in which your son's death is a thread. It's a very close, very personal thread from your perspective, but the more effective efforts to combat teen suicide will need to see it in a contextual view which you may never be able to achieve. I offer my heartfelt condolences.

Whacking off in the bathroom strikes me as another thing typically kept from the folks.

Oh, I don't think most parents are unaware of what's going on in there.

pm: I don't disagree with anything you've written. I think however that "raising kids" better able to handle the... includes knowing that depression (or inclination to depression) can be hereditary, that it involves a chemical element, and that some other chemicals can increase or decrease the depression. If you know about depression, you no doubt know as well that it is an area people often know little about ("Granny had 'moods'", or "Gramps used to go into 'funks.'") You're right; the depression led to the suicide. A chemical imbalance led to the depression. And what (in part) led to that?

If its bad manners to discuss this topic, why the hell was it posted as a clutch hit? Just so we can give our condolenses to the unfortunate young man?

The young man is dead, Ted. If you have and condolences to express, you should direct them towards his family and friends, the ones that took the time to post on this thread.

Other than that, you should just stfu. I have no science to back up that claim. Just my own common sense. Sorry to invoke it here, but it's the best I can come up with.

If its bad manners to discuss this topic, why the hell was it posted as a clutch hit? Just so we can give our condolenses to the unfortunate young man?

The young man is dead, Ted. If you have and condolences to express, you should direct them towards his family and friends, the ones that took the time to post on this thread.

Other than that, you should just stfu. I have no science to back up that claim. Just my own common sense. Sorry to invoke it here, but it's the best I can come up with.

If its bad manners to discuss this topic, why the hell was it posted as a clutch hit? Just so we can give our condolenses to the unfortunate young man?

My WAG: So this tragedy can be discussed thoughtfully and intelligently?

There are two facets to this story; one is that it is a tragedy on a personal level, and the other is that is part of a large social/political/moral issue. It's definitely unfortunate for those two sides of the story to have met here.

In my opinion, it's entirely appropriate for the political side of the issue to be discussed here. That's why this story was posted, and why it was published in the first place. And that's the angle that many posts here have taken. When that comes into contact with the personal tragedy side of the story, bad things happen. For example, MikeEmeigh made a perfectly reasonable post, and a response was:

Your post was extremely callous. You really ought to be ashamed. Talk about mindless moralizing.

Which is entirely wrong, in my opinion. The last thing that post was was mindless moralizing; it strikes me as an attempt to carefully consider the different issues involved. Obviously, there are settings where saying that would be inappropriate--this should not be one of those settings, but problems arise when those affected personally are privy to this sort of discussion.

This article is about the underlying reasons for the suicide, and it is natural and reasonable for posters here to examine other possible reasons and acknowledge that those reasons are almost certainly numerous and complex. It is natural and reasonable to reject or at least question any simplification of the issue down to one cause, whether it's steroids or anything else.

However, finding reasons has forever been incorrectly conflated with placing blame, which is one of the greatest problems people run into in social and political discussions.

As for the jokes up above, that's a difference of opinion that would never be resolved. I'm sure that they would not have been made if anyone had any idea that friends and family would find this thread. At the same time, I don't think it's necessary or even appropriate for posters at this site to let that possibility affect what they say. Of course, once people directly affected do arrive, it's a different story.

Finally, I want to salute Penguinmobile's good posts here.

all because one "fine Christian young man" in Texas stole some money and used it to buy illegal drugs.

Ken, that is beside the point. If any parent doesn't want his kid drug tested, let the parent make that case.

all because one "fine Christian young man" in Texas stole some money and used it to buy illegal drugs.

Ken, that is beside the point. If any parent doesn't want his kid drug tested, let the parent make that case.

OK, Joe, I don't want my kids drug-tested. At least not until he gets to college. I'd like to postpone the admission that the sports they love are really just all about getting over for as long as possible.

I can't tell if you're serious or not.

If you are, then your kid might not be allowed to be on any high school teams.

Names. I want all your names. And addresses. Mach schnell!!!

Some of you seem to believe that it is speculation about the connection between steroid use and depression

If, as I suspect, you're talking to me, you are missing my point. I have no reason to doubt a connection between steroids and depression, but there is a direct connection between all sorts of things and depression. For instance, in my own life, there was a direct connection between a famliy member being murdered in an especially nasty way and a long bout of depression I suffered. What I eventually had to realize was that I couldn't fight the murder which had happened, I had to fight the depression that it had helped trigger. I also had to realize that the murder was not the sole trigger for the depression. The depression is the enemy, while the triggers are merely its weapons. Yes, eliminating the weapons helps, but that's only a step towards winning the battle.

Your fight against steroids is a good fight and I wish you luck in it. However you will be both more successful in your campaign and do more good for the world if you don't promote tighter controls on steroids as a clear solution to suicidal depression in teens. Teens were killing themselves long before steroids were available to them, and they'll be killing themselves long after they no longer are available. Sure, in your son's case they may have been a contributing factor, but focussing on them as the ONLY factor is almost certainly a mistake that not only prevents you from understanding your tragedy, but also makes it less likely that you will be able to help others prevent future tragedies in their families.

Please just ignore jerks like poster #77. The world is full of them, and this board is no different.

First, I would like to nominate penguinmobile for a primey, a well thought out discussion.

Second, IMO, Drug testing does not deter kids from taking steriods, all it does is make kids spend $40 on masking agents.

Third, I have never mentioned this on this board. I had a good friend who was on steriods, he ended up in the hospital for kidney failure. He was in ICU for a long while He had no idea how to take them, he was taking way, way way too much. He was not educated on the proper way to use them. He had no idea how it worked. I am positive he though, drink more = get more drunk, shoot up more = get bigger. When we grew up, our steriod education was this...

steroids, they make you get bigger, they make your balls shrink, they make you break out, you can die. Then we moved on to the different ways marijuana can kill you, for the third time.

I think our nation must focus our resources on explaining how they steriods, and other illegal drugs work, why they are bad, and how they can kill you instead of using fear as the only motive for preventing drug use. I know many teenagers, they aren't afraid of anything.

Unfortunetly, with steriod use and teenagers, there are no easy answers. I love pretending I know what is best for everyone, but I have no idea here. I only know what won't, and hasn't, worked.

I've had a person very close to me commit suicide, it basically will change the rest of one's life. The level of ridicule in the above posts that were made with the knowledge that people close to the dead teen were going to read them is simply immoral. You guys are causing additional pain to this Mr Hooten for no good reason--even if you feel he is totally out of bounds, HE LOST HIS SON WHO HE LOVED VERY MUCH! Just shut the #### up, hold all your little witty comments, have respect and decency. You are willing to pour salt in his wounds because you want win some semi-annonymous internet arguement? I cannot understand that. Even if the guy is way out of bounds in your view, so what? Wish the guy well, grow the #### up, and hold your ironic comments for another thread.

I support teen steroid testing, espcially if it is voluntary, but even if it is mandatory. I have no doubt that testing would reduce some of the teen steriod use. It would not end the abuse of the stuff, obviously, but it would prevent some uncertain number of deaths, of this I see no other conclusion. Some of the kids would feel the chances/shame of getting caught, with the need to take masking agents addtion to the steriods would be simply too much. So, I would support it for kids under 18 who play a varsity sport, and would encourage voluntary testing for those over 18, and would like to see MLB lead by example(fat chance).

I'm going to regret posting this tomorrow, but I hate reading this kind of crap and just letting it go. This is a baseball discussion site. Lord only knows why Sean thought to post this 6 months ago, and lord only knows why it got called back. But, my two cents.

1) penguinmobile is (as usual, actually) exactly right. To blame the kid's death on steroids alone is being short sighted. As he astutely points out, just because discontinuing use of steroids leads to depression (if it does, though I have no reason to doubt it, any rapid change in hormone levels can do that) doesn't mean that that's the sole (or even main) cause. Correlation does not mean causation.

2) The kid's friends need to realize that the discussion about the issues is being held amongst people who didn't know the kid. Fine. He was a good dude. Or he was "a racist prick" as one poster who claimed to know him said. Whatever. His personality, good traits, and all the bric-a-brac that make a person have no bearing on the issues, and berating people who don't know you, and didn't know him, about it isn't going to change that.

3) As for the father. You absolutely cannot come to a discussion, post a point-by-point rebuttal, and then expect not to get called out in a similar fashion. I'm supposed to suspend all disbelief just because your son died? Tragic, surely. But if you bring your message to the masses, then expect that some people will disagree with you. And some will do it intelligently, some will not.

4) Call me callous. Call me a dick. Whatever. I really, honestly, truthfully, don't care that Taylor Hooten died any more than I care about other people who die. That's not to say I don't care at all, but people die every day. 9 people died in Fresno. 100+ died in Spain. Surely someone within 10 square miles of me (and being in the Metroplex, the Hootens aren't much farther than that) died today. So to get sanctimonious, and to say that the readers here should care is missing the point, and what's worse, it's setting up a straw man. We didn't know him. The issue itself means much more to us, and is much more likely to impact us, than Taylor's death. Recognize that.

And now that I've probably pissed everyone off, I'll stop there.

Mr Hooton:

You wrote that:

Is Taylor still pitching? I could use a good young arm like that. Tell him to give me a call.

Wow. Just wow.

This wouldn't have happened if Billy Beane didn't write that book.

Would Primer listen if Lifetime called?