What if Miguel Cabrera said after his first year "Hey, I'm worth $15 million on the open market right now. Why should I wait 5 more years to go where I want? I'm voiding my contract now and cashing in with the Yankees." You essentially drive small-market teams out of business, because all their good young players are jumping ship the second they show some value.

Isn't this basically what Wayne Rooney did at Everton. I don't believe they went out of business.

bowden's an ijit, making a (bad) trade for soriano in the first place, and then wanting to move him to the outfield.

having said that...

i can't see a way the players union would fight this. they are not moving him or benching him to avoid bonus payments. they want him to play, and they want to pay him his full salary. there's nothing in the CBA that says a team can't have a player play a different position. "you no longer bat leadoff, you're batting 7th" - same thing.

IF the players union fought it...the only thing i could see them doing would be a "let him be a free agent next year, no payment made" compromise.

This thread is a perfect example of normally level-headed posters jumping into 'bash the GM'-mode a bit prematurely and now digging themselves to the Asian continent trying to defend themselves rather than admit that Soriano has no legal or ethical basis on which to stand.

I don't see it that way it all. While many in this thread have stated how stupid Bowden is, the other side of their argument isn't that Soriano is correct in holding out. The majority of posters have stated that they're both idiots.

"I just had an idea for what Soriano could do. He could take the field whenever he's in the lineup, and claim he's playing left field, but walk over to his customary second base position. When questioned, he could just claim that he was employng an extreme defensive shift, positioning himself better than the coaches would. What do you think? He couldn't be put on the DQ list then, could he? Wouldn't he face a more generic disciplinary suspension?"

I had exactly the same idea last night!

It'd be pretty awesome, particularly if Soriano tried to drive Vidro nuts by standing as close to him as possible without touching him, like two kids in the backseat of a station wagon.

And if they played in Philadelphia instead of DC, it would even work defensively, since fly balls to left are automatically home runs.

Isn't this basically what Wayne Rooney did at Everton. I don't believe they went out of business.

Man Utd paid £27 million for Rooney. It don't see how that's a similar situation.

I asked you first.

Ah, KevinHess (SARM leader), your pithy responses are amusing. You keep in mystery whether you are reading me uncharitably and trying to score points off me or whether you really don't understand my position. At the risk of exposing myself to yet another quip, I'll try again.

I grant you Soriano breached. (What? Yes. I'm not arguing that.) But that's not the end of the story. The Nats can't do whatever they want just because he breached. Bowden's threat is that Soriano won't play MLB again unless he plays LF for the Nats. That's the issue I want to see litigated. Not the issue of whether the Nats can put Soriano on whatever list for refusing to play the game. That's quite uncontroversial and uninteresting. Of course you can DQ a player that won't play. And of course Soriano can't get a court to write his name in to the lineup at 2B.

I've often thought about doing this....

I just came in the 8th inning of a close game in my setup role and just totally dealt, getting 2 groundouts and a K with only 9 pitches. I know the closer is warming up in the pen and he's coming in cuz he's the "closer" after all.
The closer has to jog all the way in from the pen, whereas I'm in the dugout. Surely, I can beat the closer to the mound. Surely, I can run to the mound quicker than my manager can announce the change to the home plate umpire. I betcha I can even make a couple of warmup pitches before he enters the vicinity of the mound. Then, it becomes a matter of willpower. Who moves? Certainly not I. I'm flat out dealing AND started my warmups already. I would like, just once, in my career, to shoo the closer off the mound(or whoever is relieving me) and say "Why are YOU here? I got this one, go back to the pen."

I betcha Soriano can beat Vidro and his bum leg to 2nd base.

And sure, Bowden/Robinson will tell the 1st baseman to not roll Soriano ground balls. In which case, Soriano can take a few balls himself and start heaving them towards the 1st baseman. And of course, he doesn't have to catch Soriano's throws. And then it becomes a funny game of dodgeball. I'm picturing a scene like "Naked Gun" and then umpire rundown.

How fun would it have been yesterday had Frank Robinson not put in a replacement for Soriano in left? Just play with 8 guys, no leftfielder. It's a spring training game for God's sake, so who cares if you lose, and that probably would have been a fitting development in what is already an absurd situation.

I will say that I see both sides. I am a lawyer who was once transferred from an office where I was doing well and could develop my career. Then, because one of my partners basically had #### for brains, I was transferred to a different jurisdiction altogether. I lost good staff, good clients, and a lifestyle I had grown to like. It put my longterm ability to be successful in serious jeopardy. So I left. And if I had been forced to stay there, I would have really been pissed.

The one striking thing about this to me is how much more complex it is compared to the T.O. controversy. Sort of reflects the difference between the two sports imho.

DCW3, I just LMFAO, so I'm gonna go ahead and repost this here for everyone's amusement.......



DCW3, aka Jasper Happypants Posted: December 21, 2005 at 04:17 PM (#1788970)
What, you don't like the, "I've heard of this guy- so he's good, I've never heard of this guy- so he sucks" evaluation method?

Well, just imagine how the Soriano trade (roundly considered a loss for the Nats around here) might have gone had Jim Bowden known about NOPA:

Jon Daniels: Jim, it's Jon Daniels. How would you like to get...your hands...on...Alfonso Soriano!!

Jim Bowden: Alfonso Soriano!! I've heard of him! He hits home runs!

Daniels: You bet he does! And he used to play for the Yankees!

Bowden: Wow! The Yankees! They play guys that are good!

Daniels: And all you'd have to give up is Brad Wilkerson, Terrmel Sledge, and some other guy.

Bowden: Well, that sounds good to me. But I've lately been getting into using more statistics--what they call "Le Sabre-metrics." So I'm going to have to run the numbers.

(Bowden opens a file on his computer labeled "do trade or dont do trade.xls".)

Bowden: Let's see...Soriano is one player...

Number of players arriving: 1</pre>

Bowden: And (counting on fingers) Wilkerson...Sledge...other guy...that's--um...okay, Wilkerson, Sledge, other guy...oh, right, three.

Number of players leaving: 3</pre>

Bowden: (reading from computer manual) "Now hit 'Enter.'"

NOPA = -2

ERROR

ERROR

BAD TRADE</pre>

Bowden: (on phone) Oh, nice try, Jon! But my computer tells me that three is more than one! You have to get up pretty early in the morning to fool...um...(pulls out driver's license) Organ Donor! I mean, Jim Bowden! (hangs up phone) Thank you, NOPA!

i think chadbrad wanna should be on the nats instead of soriano!

can you move from the mound to the outfield?

can I throw submarine style from the outfield? I don't think my arm works over the top anymore

http://swingtraining.net/Carlos/watanabe.avi

http://swingtraining.net/Carlos/3-18-80.avi



Watanabe
Bradford

me

I should change my handle to ChadBradfordWatanabe

I could be wrong, but I don't think that Soriano did actually SIGN a contract paying him $10M to play for the Nats in 2006 - he had a contract forced on him by the system in place due to the provisions of the current CBA. It's a minor point, I agree, but a point worth making, I think. Soriano never personally agreed to take the money from the Nats and play for them. And the Nats have no method to FORCE Soriano to play - they can put him on the Disqualified List, not pay him and prevent him from reaching free agency, but there's no mechanism they can use to FORCE him to play.

I think Soriano is being pretty stupid. But he's already shown that he's willing to sit out a season on a matter of principle, no matter how misguided that principle may be. If he really doesn't want to play LF, he won't. And I don't think Bowden threatening Soriano with disciplinary action is really going to improve the situation. This should have been resolved before spring training even started - Bowden and Soriano should have been talking constantly since the trade to figure out what was going to happen. forcing a confrontation like last night doesn't make either party look good.

this is too stupid.

some of you guys think that a player should be able to tell the team where he gonna agree to play? when it's not in the cba?

in the NLDS last year, phil garner had brad ausmus playing at second base for a few innings during the 18 inning game. so you think brad should be able to say to phil - i don't THINK so. i play catcher and nowhere else. period. and chris burke can say - excuse you dude, i am a SECOND baseman i don't play no stinkin CF. and mike lamb should say - uh - hello, i am a THIRD baseman i don't do no first. call my agent. and roger clemens should say - you got your (forget)ting cojones tellin me to go in to relieve - if i ain't startin i ain't departin.

every ballplayer knows darn well the ML team that signs him got rights to his services for 6 years. so you can call it a 6 year contract. you don't like it, play in some other league.

and i would be REAL surprised if the union would try to support sori JUST because they don't want the owners to be able to break a contract any time they want to.

and after acting like he done i think sori gonna find it real hard to get hisself big bucks next year.

So, I think you only get to fake your retirement once.

Michael Jordan would like to disagree here.

I should change my handle to ChadBradfordWatanabe

i like it.

Is it bad faith to ask a second baseman to catch? Is it bad faith to ask a position player to pitch regularly? Is it bad faith to ask a pitcher to pitch so many innings that he feels like he is risking injury? Is bad faith limited to occasions when a team risks a player's health, or can occasions wher a player feels he is being made to look like a fool qualify? Is bad faith a subjective standard - as long as the team feels that they are acting reasonably then they're not acting in bad faith?

Bad faith is bad faith. It doesn't mean "bad decision." It doesn't mean "player doesn't want to do it." It would require something along the lines of, "The team actually doesn't him to play the outfield; they pretended they did solely to set up a situation where they could DQ him and get out of paying him."

The Nats can't do whatever they want just because he breached.

No, they can't "do whatever they want" to him. Killing him, not allowed. Upholding the contracts he and his union agreed to, on the other hand, allowed. Think of the reserve clause as a form of a non-compete. An employee can't escape a non-compete agreement in an employment contract (unless it's very poorly drafted) by unilaterally breaching the contract. That's what a few people are suggesting Soriano be allowed to do.

Swagger.

I don't think that Soriano did actually SIGN a contract paying him $10M to play for the Nats in 2006 - he had a contract forced on him by the system in place due to the provisions of the current CBA. It's a minor point, I agree, but a point worth making, I think. Soriano never personally agreed to take the money from the Nats and play for them.

He also didn't insist on a no trade clause, or a clause stating that any new team (nor Texas, for tht matter) could not have him change positions.

http://swingtraining.net/Carlos/watanabe.avi

http://swingtraining.net/Carlos/3-18-80.avi



Watanabe
Bradford

me


Geez, CBW, how do you avoid having your knuckles scrape the ground? I've tried submarining a couple times (Hey, I probably throw 65-70 on a good day; I need all the help I can get :) and every time I wind up with a pack of ice on my knuckles after they hit the ground.

He also didn't insist on a no trade clause, or a clause stating that any new team (nor Texas, for tht matter) could not have him change positions.


Because he couldn't. He has noegotiating rights other then the ability to go to arbitration for money after 3 years of service time.

Soriano was gonna s*ck *ss as a second baseman as his defense stinks and the bat disappears in that graveyard of a ballpark. So what brainiac thinks things get BETTER by putting him left?

Relatively speaking left fielders are supposed to hit MORE then second baseman. Soriano wold likely not even match typical second base output. So that's a big negative.

Defensively, the guy's speed and arm are solid but his whole problem is lack of instincts. He's just a jock who happens to play baseball. Personally, I don't think he has a lot of natural aptitude for the game. He is getting by on reflexes, strength, and speed. Which is why as he ages his stats are going to sink quicker then an old women's breasts.

Soriano is only guilty of an inflated sense of self created by All-Star honors and a big paycheck both garnered due to a failure of the system to properly evaluate his skill set.

Washington's guilty of being really friggin' dumb AND ignorant. Resources exist to understand the Sorianos of the world. The Nats failed on all counts.

Bowden is clearly a tool.

So tell me again why people like this get the cool jobs???

Later,

H3

I guess it's just completely impossibile that Soriano is just trying to make a point by sitting out a game or maybe two. No, the only possible explanation is that he's a complete idiot who'd rather throw his career away than play left field.

Anyway, if I'm in Soriano's shoes, here's my position: I'm a second baseman. Period. You can play me out of position if you want to, but I'm leaving as a FA at the end of this season, and I intend to market myself as a second baseman. So don't expect me to put in any extra effort trying to improve my outfield defense.

Geez, CBW, how do you avoid having your knuckles scrape the ground? I've tried submarining a couple times (Hey, I probably throw 65-70 on a good day; I need all the help I can get :) and every time I wind up with a pack of ice on my knuckles after they hit the ground.


Well, I'm not a knuckle scraper. Last year, I had a lower arm slot. One time last year, I was practicing on a tennis court and threw a slider and scraped my middle finger. Hurt like absolute hell, blood included. Another time, I scraped off the mound, wasn't as bad. I'm not as flexible as Bradford/Watanabe, so I really can't get as low (comfortably) as those guys.

Because he couldn't. He has noegotiating rights other then the ability to go to arbitration for money after 3 years of service time.

That's not correct. The CBA doesn't automatically grant him these rights, but that doesn't mean he can't negotiate for them.

He was a free agent in 1998. He chose to sign a contract with the Yankees. He could have demanded these things before signing. That doesn't mean he's entitled to them, but then, so what? We all want job perks that we don't necessarily have the leverage to obtain. Clearly, it was worth it to him anyway.

When he signed his current multiyear deal, he could have taken less money in exchange for other rights. He didn't.

As a Ranger fan (and Bob, I'm disappointed in you for not doing this), all I can say is: AHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA.

I guess it's just completely impossibile that Soriano is just trying to make a point by sitting out a game or maybe two. No, the only possible explanation is that he's a complete idiot who'd rather throw his career away than play left field.

I think "He's a complete idiot" is the point one makes by "just trying to make a point" in this manner.

If he really just wanted to make a point about where he wanted to play he could have thrown a verbal tantrum only. (Hey, I think he's done that.)

(DMN suggests that Soriano would face punishment for intentionally playing poorly in LF.

IF you can prove that he did it. Gary Sheffield's said as much about his poor defensive performance years ago as an infielder for the Brewers, and no one's punished him for that.

I think you misunderstand the level of proof required. Had MLB thought Sheffield actually intentionally played badly in the field, he'd have faced serious discipline.

There are actually two issues. What did Sheffield actually say? (if anybody has a cite I'd be very glad of it) I know his lawyer has denied that Sheffield ever said he intentionally made errors.

And is it true?

He made *one* error more than his established level in 1991. And would have a substantially lower F% at 3B in 1993 -- nobody thinks he was tanking then. He always made a lot of errors at 3B. What's remarkable about a guy with a career .933 F% turning in a .922?

His ZR was also slightly below his norm (.740 with a .765 career average) but not abnormally so.

His 1991 just looks like a normal year for a 3B who makes a lot of errors.

He may have *said* he wasn't trying, but it looks to me like he gave a normal effort. Especially since we know he was hurt. (It's his hitting that is miles out of line with his established level of talent, and I couldn't refute a claim that he was tanking at the plate, but as far as I know nobody's ever claimed that)

I'm not denying he was a seriously unhappy camper in Milwaukee. As far as I know the first time he called the organization racist was in 1989 (for giving the SS job to Bill Spiers -- Sheffield was seriously upset at having to learn a new position. The fact that Spiers was a better fielder doesn't seem to have entered into Sheffield's considerations)

With apologies to the Indigo Girls...

I heard that you were pissed and mean
And on the dairy queen
There's just enough of you in me
For me to have sympathy
And take it in stride
I know I had mine
And you were as kind
I am told

Ain't it funny how we lose one day
And a career
Slips away
I'm looking back on you that way
Something I
Never thought I'd say
I take it in stride
I know you don't walk
You were good for a time
I am told
You were good for a time
I am told

The hits you gave were not for free
But the price
Was truly fair
I never felt so glad to be
So well spent
So beyond repair
I take it in stride
At least you were mine
When your cost was still fine
Enough to hold?

Now take good care that you are true
You said you found it
Hard to do
And find that second base that sets you free
Having everything to prove
You take it in stride
And know you got killed
And are no good in left field
Or more
You strike out
You strike out more and more
Oh you strike out more and more

I'm sure I speak for everyone here in saying that Adam S and the Indigo Girls speak the truth. Whatever the hell they just said.

I randomly stumbled across an old Sports Illustrated from 1992 this week with an article about Sheffield, it which he admitted intentionally making throwing errors.

I grant you Soriano breached. (What? Yes. I'm not arguing that.) But that's not the end of the story. The Nats can't do whatever they want just because he breached. Bowden's threat is that Soriano won't play MLB again unless he plays LF for the Nats. That's the issue I want to see litigated. Not the issue of whether the Nats can put Soriano on whatever list for refusing to play the game. That's quite uncontroversial and uninteresting. Of course you can DQ a player that won't play. And of course Soriano can't get a court to write his name in to the lineup at 2B.

I think Nieporent's post (#119) is a pretty good summary of my position. Soriano knowingly entered into the system, and the DQ list is part of the system which has been collectively bargained. If he doesn't like it, he's welcome to exit the MLB system.

Ron:

As someone who knows a diehard Milwaukee baseball fan who could be classified as a "Milwaukee Brewer Team Historian", I can say emphatically that Gary Sheffield most definitely stated publicly that he intentionally made errors to try and get the team to trade him.

MLB never uttered a word about it. The public response was muted, except in Milwaukee where folks wanted to know how you could tell Sheffield's "intentional" errors from those that happened because he just s*cked.

My source? My grandfather who has followed the Brewers from their inception and if asked could likely list the hat sizes from the 1972 team.

Yes, I know that is rather freakish. I love him nonetheless.

His summary of Gary Sheffield as a Milwaukee Brewers:

"An immature, selfish pr*ck whose only excuses for his reprehensible behavior are extreme youth and a lack of leadership within the Brewer organization. Instead of kissing his *ss Tom Trebeldork should have laid down some very firm behavioral guidelines."

I believe Tom's last name was actually Trebelhorn. But Pop constantly refers to him as Trebeldork and since I find this kind of funny I honor that usage.

Anyway, that's the old-timer's view. And I suspect he is mostly correct tinged with anger at the Crew losing such a talented hitter. That and Sheff trashing the city, the team's two icons (Yount/Molitory), and the fan base on his way to the Padres.

Later,

H3

From my reading of the CBA, there is actually a way that Soriano could refuse to play for the Nationals, and still become a free agent at the end of the year.

If a player leaves for active military service, his service time continues to acrue for up to two years. This means that Soriano could leave enlist, thereby preventing a DQ, and gaining the necessary service time to become a free agent.

Otherwise, it looks like he won't be a FA unless he is traded or plays LF for the Nats.

and the bat disappears in that graveyard of a ballpark.

I just thought I'd point out, by the way, that this popular supposition doesn't appear to be true.

Soriano played regularly at Yankee Stadium, a tough place for right handed power hitters, for three years, and his OPS+ went 92, 131, 128.

Then he moved to a hitter's park in Arlington, and his OPS+ went 98, 110.

If anything, he was more valuable in Yankee Stadium. RFK will probably change the shape of his stats, but it's unlikely to make him a less valuable player.

RDF, Jeff K. But I don't think that Ranger fans should express uncharitable thoughts about this situation. Eheh. Hehehe hee hee.

Soriano could leave enlist, thereby preventing a DQ, and gaining the necessary service time to become a free agent

Sarge, no way I'm walking point on this patrol. I am sitting in that tent right over there till you put me in the middle of the lineup. Sarge?

Jay Jaffe has a detailed look at the Sheffield "intentional errors" story (among other things) on his Futility Infielder website.

Soriano's an idiot & his refusal shows me he has zero interest in winning, his teammates or anything other than himself. What's the harm in trying LF? If he is a total liability out there and killing the team, Robinson would move him back to the infield.

BDC, on the last page you mentioned a great shortstop & one of my favorite players, Tony Fernandez. He was pissed about having to play 3rd for the Reds in '94, but did it, & did it well. He only made 2 errors in 93 games at the hot corner.

Pete Rose volunteering/agreeing to move to 3rd in '75 is credited with galvanizing the Big Red Machine.

Hell, even Sheffield volunteered to move back to third for the Yankees after Aaron Boone got hurt. The team decided to go in another direction.

Soriano's an idiot & his refusal shows me he has zero interest in winning, his teammates or anything other than himself. What's the harm in trying LF? If he is a total liability out there and killing the team, Robinson would move him back to the infield.

Soriano may think his free agent value is much greater as a 2B than as a LF. But at the same time, it's bound to be higher as a LF than as a malcontent who refuses to play.

With a nod to Chauncey from Being There:

I like to watch....outfield misadventures. Is Soriano worried that he'll make ex-Mets left fielder Todd Hundley look like a Gold Glover?

When he signed his current multiyear deal, he could have taken less money in exchange for other rights. He didn't.

Soriano doesn't have a multi-year deal and has never had one. He's been in arbitration each year (I don't remember if he settled any of them before hearing).

This is a sign of the Curse of Youppi.

Sabremetric GM's like Bowden never look up from their laptops enough to see that they are dealing with real flesh and blood people.

some of you guys think that a player should be able to tell the team where he gonna agree to play? when it's not in the cba?

How much money is Alfonso Soriano the Second Baseman worth on the market versus Alfonso Soriano the Left Fielder?

I don't know if it means anything, but MLB and the MLBPA both sort of recognize that there's a difference between playing 2B and the OF. The Elias Free Agency rankings have those two positions in different categories.

I suspect that most people would side with the player if it was someone like Brad Wilkerson being asked to move to the middle infield. Is it just that because it's an 'easier' position that we say it's ok for the team to do that?

If a player leaves for active military service, his service time continues to acrue for up to two years. This means that Soriano could leave enlist, thereby preventing a DQ, and gaining the necessary service time to become a free agent.

This is incredibly awesome.

This means that Soriano could leave enlist, thereby preventing a DQ, and gaining the necessary service time to become a free agent.

The Dominican army isn't going to want his sorry Beetle Bailey attitude.

APPLICATION DENIED!

The Elias Free Agency rankings have those two positions in different categories.

So, let's say that Soriano plays all year for the Nationals. Are they likely to get a worse free agent pick to compensate for losing Soriano after the season if he is their left fielder rather than if he is their second baseman. I would have to think they could, though with the stratification, it might not make any difference at all.

Craig, I would assume so, in theory. But Soriano has put up good enough numbers to be a Type-A regardless, and I think they'd base much of his value on the position he's played for most of those years. I'm not sure about the details of the actual formula anyway. Elias doesn't release it, right?

If the Union and MLB both agree that there's a difference especially in terms of offensive output among those two positions, that's a pretty big bullet point in the PowerPoint that Soriano's agent is readying for the eventual arbitration hearing.

"If a player leaves for active military service, his service time continues to acrue for up to two years. This means that Soriano could leave enlist, thereby preventing a DQ, and gaining the necessary service time to become a free agent."

Just the US military, or that of any nation? I'm pretty sure Sori's still a Dominican citizen, and I don't know how our army feels about foreign nationals in the ranks.

Good thing the military status thing doesn't say anything about requiring an honorable discharge. Boot camp is what? Six months? All he needs is about 70 or so days of service time. He could just go PT for a few weeks then desert. ;)

Besides, at this point the thought of Soriano smashing rocks in Leavenworth is sort of appealing!

Interesting thread.

I'm pretty interested where people are getting their informaion wrt CBA, the UPC, and the Major League Rules.

I just read the CBA a couple of times. It looks like to me that the Nationals remedies are to:

(1) Levy a just cause fine or suspension up to the maximum extent that the CBA allows and subject to a grievance procedure; OR

(2) Request waivers for the purpose of terminating the contract.

It seems to me that the CBA and UPC expressly call out the procedure for a player who refuses to provide services, and grants those two remedies. Maybe somebody saw something I didn't, and if so I'd appreciate the cite.

Moreover, the CBA does not create a Dairy Queen list in any way. What it does do, inter alia, is discuss when and how a player becomes a free agent or a contract tender must by made pursuant to a Dairy Queen player, and it also discusses the inapplicability of certain provisions of the Major League Rules regarding Diary Queen players and notification to the employing club.

Dairy Queen is covered in the Major League Rules. Now, I'm not sure how many people have access to the Major League Rules, especially recent versions.

But let's just hypothetically suppose they are substantially similar to the 1999 version, which was reported on by Doug Pappas. In which case, a breach of the contract or failure to perform services would put you on a Suspended List, not the Diary Queen, which is for players who where somehow in cahoots with a player on the Ineligible List.

The Ineligible List we are familiar with, it involves game fixers, gamblers, and persons who are convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude (that could change the course of this thread, e.g. someone involved in tax evasion possibly?).

Link for Pappas's hearsay on the MLR.

Interesting development in today's Post:

Soriano's impending free agency could be a determining factor in the continuing conflict, and it's a point the union may argue if the Nationals put Soriano on the disqualified list. The Nationals and Major League Baseball officials believe that a player on the disqualified list doesn't accrue service time.

Baseball's collective bargaining agreement, however, doesn't explicitly state that players on the disqualified list don't accrue service time, and the union, should it get involved, might argue that Soriano should earn credit for his time even if he ends up on the list.

So that IS open to interpretation, I guess.

Also, just as a reference, the termination provision of the contract is found sections 7(b) and 7(c).

For those who may be familiar with RA contracts, you have probably seen the standard language which allows a party to suspend performance and extend the term (thus keeping exclusivity). Suspend and Extend is not in the UPC.

It seems to be an end-run around the "for each day on the championship roster" creates a suspend and extend b/c the player is not technically on the roster if they are a member of a Rule 15 or Rule 16 list.

That should be a pretty damn interesting battle.

The problem with the definition of the DQ list from Pappas' link is the use of the word 'includes' before the list of particulars. Is that an exhaustive list? Or is that just a few of the types of offenses that gets one placed on the list?

Is that an exhaustive list? Or is that just a few of the types of offenses that gets one placed on the list?

I guess one would have to get their hands on the Major League Rules to answer the question conclusively and to their satisfaction.

But assuming we know nothing other than Pappas report, there are still interesting questions.

Players covenant to follow the Major League Rules, but Rule 15 and Rule 16 provide procedures to baseball clubs in their covenants with one another effecting their roster management.

Their is no duty to the player pursuant to MLR 15 and MLR 16; the players duty wrt providing services is governed by the UPC as it may be limited and or consistent with the CBA.

So the bigger question is "One full day of Major League service will be credited for
each day of the championship season a Player is on a Major League Club’s Active List." A player is by definition not on the Active List if he is on the Dairy Queen; however, Article 21A2 does say time counts if "placed on a disciplinary suspension by a Club, the Vice President, On-Field Operations or the Commissioner, or on the Disabled List;"

I think there is a reasonable counter argument that the Dairy Queen is being used as a means of instituting discipline. So that expands Mr. Nieporent's bad faith argument, because I think you can make a factual showing that the Nats are using the Dairy Queen as a means to not credit service time which would otherwise be allowable.

Bowden running off with diarrhea of the mouth would certainly help make that case because that is exactly what he is threatening to do.

It's ancient history, but this olllld court case defines the DQ list as:

"A player who violates his contract or reservation may be reported to the Commissioner, if a Major League player, or to the President of the Nationals Association..."

While some of the details have probably changed, this definition is consistent with the media reports about how the Nats need to 'ask permission' before putting him on the list. Apparently a gross violation of his contract is enough for this list?

Also, if whoever mentioned previously that this was a grand scheme by MLB, I seriously doubt that is the case.

It would be much cheaper to get a declaratory judgment if you wanted to test that issue.

If this is a scheme by owners, which has the effect of influencing salaries, then their is triple damages available for the aggrieved players.

It's ancient history, but this olllld court case defines the DQ list as:

Excellent link. That is a nice snippet of the MLR. That should also show that those set of rules deal with the covenants between teams for roster management and competition among resources.

Please note that the snippett you provided does not discuss a "Suspended List" which is discussed by Pappas.

So given what we do know about the case in question, and the general loathing of courts to enforce covenants not to compete, do you think that MLB can use the MLR to create a Suspend and Extend, for the Reserve Clause term of the CBA?

I'm not sure I'd really want to go the hilt with that legal theory.

I'm just a layman hack, so I definitely can't answer that one, but what a judge would say can be dramatically different than what an arbitration panel would, right? They have different standards. Wouldn't this, by the nature of the CBA, have to go to arbitration first?

That's very interesting, Backlasher. Were you able to find out whether the team has the ability to suspend the contract without extending?

It seems odd that this situation has never come up before.

What would be interesting would be if Vidro suffers a season ending injury tomorrow (not Soriano Tonya Hardinging him, though that would be interesting too).

The Nats can't just run Soriano out to 2B at that point and say all is well - they have to win this battle, or Robinson/Bowden lose the team.

So really, even if Vidro were removed from the equation, the only way this can end good for them is either Soriano capitulating, or them trading him for something that would make you think it was a good deal to move Wilkerson, Sledge and Galarraga.

This is a complete disaster, wow.

I'm pretty interested where people are getting their informaion wrt CBA, the UPC, and the Major League Rules.

To be perfectly honest, I'm just going on what I read around here, by no means a reliable source, I'm sure.

Moreover, the CBA does not create a Dairy Queen list in any way.

Usually, your adoption of pet names for people and things bugs me, but I find it absolutely hilarious in this case. I love how you're holding a perfectly normal conversation about a theoretical Dairy Queen list that keeps players from accruing service time. Like there's some sort of rift in the time-space continuum at DQ.

So really, even if Vidro were removed from the equation, the only way this can end good for them is either Soriano capitulating, or them trading him

I don't agree. They put him in LF not because they thought it was best for him, but because it was best for the team. Soriano looks bad now because he is being selfish rather than doing what is best for the team.

If Vidro gets hurt and it's best for the team to put Soriano back at 2B, I don't think that Bowden/Robinson lose the team by putting him back there. Of course, that all depends on what kind of respect they're currently getting from their players -- but I'll give Frank Robinson the benefit of the doubt on that sort of thing.

Baseball's collective bargaining agreement, however, doesn't explicitly state that players on the disqualified list don't accrue service time, and the union, should it get involved, might argue that Soriano should earn credit for his time even if he ends up on the list.

That's what I said in post 12 in the other thread, but no-one believed me. (At least, Szymborski didn't. He just repeated the management line.)

Unfortunately for the purposes of me playing a part in advancing any understanding of this, all my labour law experience was gained as a union official in Britain, so I didn't feel qualified to argue the point.

Oh, and I've been wondering about the potential effects of this on the anti-trust exemption should it turn into a lawyers' fight. Again, I've been in Britain too long to have much understanding about American labour law nor how courts interpret "restraint of trade" on the part of a worker, but considering the trend of decisions in European law Soriano would already be laughing all the way to triple damages at the bank.

I can't help but think that Bowden inadvertently has knocked over a big can labelled "WORMS" at the back of the cupboard, and there are probably people working overtime trying to ensure none of those wriggly customers get out of the pantry.

Bowden's got to be toast after this.

I love how you're holding a perfectly normal conversation about a theoretical Dairy Queen list that keeps players from accruing service time. Like there's some sort of rift in the time-space continuum at DQ.

When I was in Little League, the coach would take the whole team out for ice cream once in a while. It would have been wonderful if going to DQ would have stopped me from growing past Little League age. Baseball, ice cream, baseball, ice cream, baseball, ice cream, ad infinitum....I don't see how anyone could complain about the Dairy Queen list in that situation.

Bowden's got to be toast after this.

If Stan Kasten ends up running the Nationals with the Lerner group, a few weeks later I fully expect Frank Wren to be at least the interim GM.

Craig:

Is a Dairy Queen located next to a Little League field your personal Nexus?

Star Trek Next Generation movie reference. William Shatner's "Kirk" FINALLY dies.

It's sad that I not only watched the movie from start to finish but recall major elements of that dreadful event.

My apologies.

Later,

H3

I should change my handle to ChadBradfordWatanabe

Well played my friend.

That fastball seemed relatively harmless at first but broke down at the end... I think can ground harmless to second against you!

Dude, I think you release too HIGH. Watanabe releases lower than that.... or maybe it's just the psuedomound's effect.

What are your breaking pitches?

Bowden's got to be toast after this.
Unfortunately, Bowden's the master of the self-serving platitude.

He has a weekly column in a local rag, full of Chicken Soup-style "I'm in charge"-type quotes. If Soriano blinks, and there were some indications last night that he could, then Bowden is going to be strutting around, taking credit for this, and using it to show what an effective leader he is.

It won't work on some people, but he has plenty of enablers in this area, most notably George Michael (AKA the Crypt Keeper), who would probably bare Bowden's children were it biologically possible.

Is a Dairy Queen located next to a Little League field your personal Nexus?

As a kid, it sounds good. Though as an adult now, it seems like spending eternity hanging out at a little league field might would be a little creepy. My local little league field is a good 5 blocks from the nearest DQ, so in this realm, I could spend a good amount of time walking back and forth, burning off those buster bars.

Oh, and I've been wondering about the potential effects of this on the anti-trust exemption should it turn into a lawyers' fight. Again, I've been in Britain too long to have much understanding about American labour law nor how courts interpret "restraint of trade" on the part of a worker, but considering the trend of decisions in European law Soriano would already be laughing all the way to triple damages at the bank.

Care to elaborate? Is it the delayed free agency that would be problematic in Europe, or the ability to make a player change positions?

Soriano has boarded the team bus -- there was speculation that he wouldn't even make the trip. He's penciled in at leadoff, but he still hasn't completely committed to playing.

That's what I said in post 12 in the other thread, but no-one believed me. (At least, Szymborski didn't. He just repeated the management line.)


Yeah, I'm totally falling for management's line - that's why I'm a big advocate of Marvin Miller, most beloved by owners, of being in the Hall of Fame.

I think there is a reasonable counter argument that the Dairy Queen is being used as a means of instituting discipline. So that expands Mr. Nieporent's bad faith argument, because I think you can make a factual showing that the Nats are using the Dairy Queen as a means to not credit service time which would otherwise be allowable.

I don't understand this at all.

If I hire a guy to mow my lawn for 10 bucks every weekend and one week, he doesn't come and I don't pay him 10 bucks, I'm not disciplining him, I'm simply not paying for the services rendered.

The Nats aren't disciplining him; they're simply taking the proper legal steps to not have to pay Soriano for services that he hasn't rendered.

The MLBPA has never blinked an eye before when a player was sent down to the minors for disciplinary reasons and didn't get service time. Brad Fullmer lost an entire year of free agent eligibility because of this - why should Soriano get service time any more than a student should get a passing grade for a class they never intended?

Operation Shutdown II: The Legend of Curly's Gold

He's penciled in at leadoff, but he still hasn't completely committed to playing.

I wrote this is the Dugout, but since no one actually read the Dugout:

The Nationals are on the road today, meaning they bat first. Does Soriano:

A. Play left with a big smile
B. Refuse to play at all
C. Take his turn at bat in the top of the first, and then refuse to report to left field for the bottom of the inning?

Soriano to play left field.

BL (and others), a sincere thanks for taking the time to go through the CBA (and such other documentation that we have)

Interesting. Wouldn't be the first time that MLB has caused themselves an unexpected problem through poor contract language. Pretty much everybody thought the reserve clause was iron-clad. And now that I think about it, an arbitrator has ruled aginst their reading of service time issues at least once in the past -- Larry Walker IIRC.

BL, obviously you know a lot more about the courts and arbitrator's rulings but I thought they were very reluctant to overturn an arbitrator. I know MLB went to court several times in the early 80s with what seemed to me to be reasonable arguments. And got firmly turned away with, "What part of binding arbitration did you not understand" (Sometimes less polite than that)

OK I know the answer to that one. Seemed reasonable to a layman doesn't matter much. Devil's in the details and all that.

Oh, and I've been wondering about the potential effects of this on the anti-trust exemption should it turn into a lawyers' fight. Again, I've been in Britain too long to have much understanding about American labour law nor how courts interpret "restraint of trade" on the part of a worker, but considering the trend of decisions in European law Soriano would already be laughing all the way to triple damages at the bank.

There is no "anti-trust exemption." (I'm not sure why people still haven't caught onto this. It's been almost decade since it was removed, as far as major league players go.)

There is, however, a labor exception to the antitrust laws. As long as there's a relevant union -- and of course there is -- antitrust laws do not apply. That's why the NFLPA had to decertify as a union in order to win free agency in the courts.

Soriano needs to take OF lessons from Todd Hundley.

Yeah, I'm totally falling for management's line

Well, you did make a post that agreed 100 percent with what Bowden is trying to do - deny Soriano service time. You took management's line straightaway on this issue, Dan. But that doesn't mean you do it all the time.

Is it the delayed free agency that would be problematic in Europe, or the ability to make a player change positions?

The delayed free agency. When it comes to the business of sports, European Union authorities are tending to favour the interests of the clubs and the players over those of leagues and national organizations. The whole MLB reserve clause setup just couldn't happen in Europe any more.

FWIW, I support Sam M's position, and the position that the Nats and Bowden are taking. Soriano has no right to demand where he is going to play. He signed a contract to play "baseball", not second base. If he wants to play second base, he can invalidate his contract and go play in the minors or someplace else, not in a competitive arena like MLB.

His defense is putrid, and if he had any sense at all, he would recognize the Nats are trying to help him salvage his career.

His defense is putrid, and if he had any sense at all, he would recognize the Nats are trying to help him salvage his career.

Salvage his career? Didn't he just get the most money ever awarded in arbitration?