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Not surprising, as both teams have sucked on the road (Red Sox at .412, Rays .423) and are great at home (Red Sox .828, Rays .706).
And I'm so glad someone directed me to SJ's response #85. All Mr. HS's bases are belong to SJ.
Dude. The actual one-on-one fistfight part lasted, like, two seconds max. There is no WAY you could possibly have seen this much.
100% of managers would never have to.
Of course he knew he'd be thrown at. And he obviously knew what he'd do when it happened.
But his actions didn't just cause the Red Sox to lose one CFer (him, via ejection and probable suspension), but two - since Ellsbury goes over to CF to replace the ejected Crisp, dives after a ball, and screws up his wrist for an indefinite period of time.
There's also the sideshow of Manny head-slapping Youkilis and then attempting to play Zambrano to Youkilis' Barrett before being restrained and hauled away; without the brawl happening, that's unlikely to occur.
2. Crisp's takeout slide of Iwamura was irresponsible and unequivocally bush league.
3. The response from the Rays in last night's game was incredibly stupid. Shields should have been under strict orders NOT to go after Crisp early in the game, if at all. A good team knows when to pick its spots, and the 2nd inning of a game with your #2 starter on the hill is not the spot to pick. You wait until the later innings to send that message, and preferably you have one of your fungible relievers do the dirty work so your good pitcher doesn't have to sit out a suspension.
I won't comment on anything that transpired after that, as I don't believe there are any rules of etiquette, written or unwritten, for basebrawls.
When Bartlett was with the Twins, and he dropped his knee blocking second base, Maddon said... So in the past Maddon has recommended to his own players that they choose to act in a way as to cause injury to Bartlett if he blocks the bag. Now he defends it, saying it's OK to do it if the player is coming head-first - which, BTW, I think is unknowable by a middle infielder trying to field the throw from the catcher.
Joe Maddon, shut up and grow up.
On the other side, Coco followed the spirit of Maddon's recommendation and, the next time he stole, went into second with the intent to cause injury. But he was indifferent to the target: Iwamura covered, and it should've been easy for a base-stealer to tell which of the middle infielders directly in front of him was covering.
Coco Crisp, grow up and shut up.
This is an ENORMOUS difference. Coco made (depending on your view, but I'll grant it, for the sake of argument) a tackle. Duncan came in with metal weapons at stomach/groin level. There's a huge difference between battery, and battery with a dangerous weapon.
Crisp went into second with bad intentions, he should be suspended for 40 million games.
Coco did it to the guy covering second base on a steal attempt. Given the fact that he was in the middle of the action, he may not have noticed (and obviously didn't care) that it was Iwamura and not the other guy covering.
With pay?
No, he got Iwamura on the inside of the right knee.
Okay, let's assume Bartlett's move was intentional and Crisp's reaction was therefore justified. I think there is an important difference between sliding into second base feet first as on a normal steal attempt and the takeout slide that Crisp put on Iwamura. I have no great affection for Maddon (especially if he ordered or sanctioned the idiotic plunking of Crisp in 2nd inning yesterday), but he recommended sliding feet first on a steal, he didn't advise anyone to clear out an infielder like it was a double play ball.
Crisp's move was horseshit. If he thought Bartlett was out of line, have a jaw at him and slide feet first next time. Maybe have one of the Boston relievers bounce one off his ass later. End of story. There's no need to go barreling into a completely different guy at full speed. Of all the individual actions in this saga, Crisp's was the most bush.
I had no problem with everything after his HBP. That was good entertainment, and his duck and stick of Shields was quite deft. What he did to precipitate the HBP, on the other hand, was bush. Not to mention dangerous. He could easily have gotten hurt himself on his takeout of Iwamura.
That's some impressive (and misguided) rationalization Kevin. They already had essentially won two of the three games when he made the hard slide, and he didn't get hit until they were already up 3-1 in the last. And I'd rather my team win by playing good baseball than relying on thuggery or a trade of my crappy guy for your good one.
Which has zero bearing on whether Coco's actions were "great."
There was a duck, there was no stick.
I think the teams are now even. Bartlett blocks Coco with the knee, Coco takes out Iwamura in retaliation, Shields hits Coco, Coco charges the mound. ###-for-tat, and now we're done.
Crisp popped Shields in the shoulder/lower neck after dodging Shields' haymaker. Probably not where Crisp was trying to hit him, but at least he landed a punch.
Looked to me like he caught him on the neck. He was probably going for under the ear, and came close to getting it. And SJ, he made contact.
Thats my recollection as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets the longest non-Crisp suspension.
That said, the whole affair is completely idiotic.
"Oh my God! That's Wade Boggs' music! ... Oh my God! Wade Boggs is cleaning house on his former teammates with a steel chair! I'm disgusted! I'm disgusted!"
EDIT: After the '96 Series, do you think heel Boggs would come into Boston riding a NYPD Police Horse and whacking people with the chair from up there?
If I were booking the angle, Boggs would come in wearing a Boston jersey and start laying out the Rays with his chair until they fled the diamond. Then Manny comes over to shake his hand, there's a long, tense moment, they shake, Manny turns around, *BAM* Boggs clocks him with the chair and rips off his jersey to reveal a New York Yankees t-shirt.
Of course, he'd be lucky to make it out of Fenway alive if that actually happened.
Nah. Wrasslin fans are all bark, no bite.
As for his retaliation against Iwamura for Bartlett's play, I don't see the problem there either (unless you're generally against players 'policing the game' themselves, as I am). Players retaliate against teams generally, not against individuals. One guy hits a HR and watches it, the next guy gets plunked. Pitcher on team A hits a player on Team B; pitcher on Team B hits star hitter on team A. Coco wanted to retaliate and there was no guarantee that he would again get the chance to do so directly against Bartlett. Instead, he went after Iwamura.
And as much as I'm for turning the other cheek, I can certainly see how Coco saw things. Bartlett made a "shady" play (one that he has a reputations for) and Coco responded in kind. He didn't injure anyone. He then gets publicly chewed out by Maddon and then clearly intentionally hit. There's no way he or anyone else would think that things were even at that point.
okay, I know this is taking a step back, but was Bartlett's play really that shady? From what I've heard he had dropped his knee and was blocking the bag - not really kosher, but it doesn't sound like he was looking to hurt Coco (who could probably have hurt Bartlett in his own right if he was sliding feet-first). Maybe someone who saw the play could explain what was so shady about it.
To me it looked like he lost his balance a bit reaching back behind him to catch the throw, and put the knee down to not fall forward. It may be considered shady to do that on second on steal attempts. Even if it was, Coco's reaction was a little over the top. Come in hard on a DP ball, don't come in crazy high on Iwamura trying to hurt him.
Coco is probably very sensitive about the knee drop issue because he's hurt his fingers before and it really messed up his 06 season. And don't most basestealers (Coco included) go in head first most of the time?
The Duncan play was a cheap play retaliating for a play that was within the both the written and unwritten rules of the game.
The Crisp play was retaliation for a play that was not within both the written and unwritten rules of the game.
Not to mention, Duncan had nothing to do with the play in which which incited the slide. Crisp certainly did.
fair enough, but that just gives creedence to the suggestion that Coco has been overreacted to the whole thing, which I happen to agree with.
generally speaking, I'm fine with the players policing themselves, but game-to-game. That is, I think it's stupid for players to carry these grudges over to the next game or series. In a perfect world, a Sox pitcher would have plunked Bartlett the same game, Bartlett takes his medicine and everyone forgets about it. The rest is just macho dick-measuring.
Crazy high? You must be. He did not come in high at all. Watch it again.
This is bingo for me. Totally agree.
Brill. I dig it. Make it happen.
It depends how they slid, my Orange friend.
I was not refering to you, I was refering to MHS, who has a direct quote, about a nearly identical situation, advocating the opposite position.
I don't see where Coco overreacted though. He responded to a shady play with a shady play (his words). Nobody was hurt in either play. Bartlett has been doing this for a while and even admits that another player asked him to stop. Yet he says that it's easier for him to keep doing it, so too bad if someone gets hurt.
For your second point, the whole thing is macho bs on a certain level. But if you're going to do it, there's no reason to arbitrarily limit it to within a game. There's not always a good time to seek retribution within a given game. Teams wait because they don't want to lose a game over this stuff.
As for your prescription of a Sox pitcher hitting a Rays batter, I'm not sure that works any better than what Coco did. He got his payback, nobody got ejected, and nobody got hurt. Additionally, it resolved things within a single game, as is your preference.
So it's OK to hit the player batting after Manny 30 to 40 times a year? Glad that was cleared up.
It's over unless Crisp starts something else. The Rays have no reason to do anything more.
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