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Uhhh, Clemens cut the Yankees loose my friend... he retired *wink* The Yanks went even so far as to not offer him arbitration.
It's not like Cashman was out in the papers saying he's in "the twilight of his career," then went on to see him win like four more Cy Young Awards and play in five World Series - winning two of them. Who's GM did that again?
He's only... 160 or so victories behind Cy Young?
Clemens retired. The Yankees had no chance to lowball him.
The Yankees offered more money to Pettitte than the Astros did, but he was pissed about how much attention George gave Sheff and also wanted to go back home.
McNally, what's the deal with soft trailers on 18-wheelers? I see alot of them lately. Are they more fuel efficient?
Well that and calling him up to wish him well after he signed with the Astros. I guess they could have gone to the press saying he was done and they were glad he wasn't coming back...
Get with the times, man. They went to a swipe card system years ago.
Absolutely, positively, not true. The Yankees made Clemens wait around for a contract offer while they pursued Bartolo Colon. Cashman didn't say "twighlight of his career," exactly, but he did make public comments that the Clemens was just going to have to wait to see if there was a spot that they could find for him. Of course, Clemens played the part of the obedient dog, sitting by his bowl was Master Cashman scratched another waved a steak in front of another pooch. When that one ran away, Cashman doled out the Alpo to Clemens, who panted with delight.
Now I always thought that whole episode bothered Clemens, just as I thought that the affair rumor and verbal wars bothered Pettitte. But I guess that was wishful thinking, because Pettitte came running back to play for them at a discount and Clemens signed up without much back and forth with other suitors. Time heals all wounds or something like that I guess. Anyway, off to the ledge.
Very bad example? The Yankees wanted Schilling, but he took Boston's offer. The Red Sox wanted Clemens, but he took New York's offer.
Neither free agent was exactly an unknown quantity at the time of his signing.
And signing Big Old Power Pitcher isn't an avant-garde strategic leap.
Uhhh, not exactly. There's great video of Clemens being saluted by the Marlins during the '03 World Series as he walked off the mound for what everyone thought was the final time. He was so committed to retirement the Yanks didn't offer him arbitration - because he had said repeatedly he was done.
The Pettitte non-signing was a ancillary story line and certainly not a causational factor in his departure - he retired and then was talked out of it.
Yeah, that's because they're stupid. Of course, it doesn't matter, they still get Clemens back. Hopefully, there's still some karma lingering around to swing back after the Small/Chacon business.
This is a huge, huge coup by the Yankees. No team will make a bigger midseason acquisition than they just did. Best guess - this takes them from 2:1 for the division to 3:2.
Either they are hauling high-value automobiles - protecting them better than standard car haulers.. or they are shorter-haul household goods movers (easier loading and unloading since you just roll up the sides - I believe.
Yeah, that was really cruel to make someone that said they were retired wait for an offer.
The Tampa contingent wanted Colon while Cashman wanted Javy because they needed a pitcher since Clemens was retiring.
Thanks, I like believing the truth.
Yes and no.
Schilling had the no-trade clause with Arizona, and called the shots as to where he went. Remember "Thanksgiving With Theo" and the contract extension that came as part of the deal?
This was the year before Clemens last year, not the year when he retired.
In any event, let us assume two reservoirs of rancor. Any question of their comparative depths was settled by Clemens today.
Speaking of counterarguments - can you google search me up these threads you claim exist? My search didn't seem to produce anything.
Are the threads with the WMDs?
Colon was a FA after the 2003 season.
Clemens "retired" after the 2003 season.
So ummm, what?
What does A-Rod have to do with anything (not that it's turned out poorly)? Is your point that no Yankee acquisition is a good one or something?
Seriously - what are you getting at here?
"I could care less now," Schilling said.
He could care less... and he will!
Arizona's FO was rather generous back then... ohhhh, yes.
Today, at this moment, I watch in horror as one of my favorites, Darren, aligns himself with kevin.
Cashman, when there were rumors Clemens was coming back....
When asked about the possibility of Clemens coming out of retirement to play in Houston on Saturday, Yankees GM Brian Cashman told The Associated Press that he wasn't upset.
"We all have a chance to change our minds and that's life," Cashman said. "He'll always be a Yankee, despite where he played before us, despite where he plays after us."
Clemens announced his retirement before the 2003 season, there was a long farewell period. He got the standing O in Fenway. He got the truck from the Yankees, he managed the last game of the year.
He was retiring.
Somebody is still basking in the glow of the Sexson heist.
And he worked all that leverage into a whopping $5 million dollars, or a little under half what he made the previous season with the Yankees. That season was all about going home to be close to family and continuing pitching with his good buddy.
That was also the first "retirement" before it was obvious Clemens was taking retirement advice from Michael Jordan.
Darren - could you produce the threads? Not that I don't trust your memory - its just that I don't trust your memory.
I'd refer you to SG's projection work over at RLYW... where he says that Clemens could be "a 25 - 30 run upgrade" over the assorted crap they've been throwing out there in the five hole... so I'd say that would make a big difference.
This is simply wrong---the Yankees didn't want him and went after Vazquez instead. You just don't know what you are talking about here, my man.
Yeah, say hi to JC, Joey B, and Fat Al for me. I can't even figure where kevin stands on this. The notion that Clemens was always treated well by the Yankees is silliness.
The Yankees pursuit of Colon, PRIOR TO THE ####### 2003 ####### SEASON, in order to drive down Clemens asking price, is ####### chronicled right ####### here.
You may also recall that when Clemens initially came to the Yankees he signed so goofy extension that paid him $10 mil for 01 and 02, with another $10 mil deferred to 03. The contract had some BS language to make it look like Clemens could choose whether to come back and play for that $10 mil or take it as deferred money for 01 and 02, when in fact it had been agreed upon that it was deferred money. He took the $10 mil as anyone obviously would, and was negotiating for a new contract, and the Yankees officials started talking about how if Clemens wanted to play he should have just accepted that money--which was ####### deferred ####### from 01 and 02--and used that as his salary.
That is an insult, as is the Colon ######## that they pulled. Clemens is too dimwitted to realize it apparently.
This is simply wrong---the Yankees didn't want him and went after Vazquez instead. You just don't know what you are talking about here, my man.
This is correct, both New York and Boston wanted Javy. Yanks just "lucked out."
The strength of parallels between that and the "younger, controlled for more years" Dice K pickup relative to "old" but actually good Clemens are unclear at this point.
One thing is that Vazquez cost talent and money while Dice K cost only money.
The link does not show anything about "cutting him loose with rancor" as you claimed. When the relationship ended, after the managed the Yanks the final day of the year, after they pitched in and got him that truck, after the ceremony honoring him. After the farewell tour and WS start, after all that, there was no rancor.
None.
Why do people always screw that up? ARRRRRRGHHHHHHH.
I hate that. :P
Why don't people understand that language evolves and expressions change?
I hate that.
Oops, I didn't know that.
Did not treat him properly? or improperly? Klapisch is, no doubt, correct about their pursuit of Colon, because that was well-documented. There are quotes from Cashman on it, I'm just not Google-boy and I don't particularly feel like reliving that pain.
Also, I'm not in anyway associating myself with the notion that the Yankees cut loose Clemens with rancor after 03. I never said that anywhere, so I don't see why I'm being lumped in with kevin. Maybe that's the way you and Osama bin Laden like to do things SJ, but I just don't think it's cool.
A couple more things. Per Cot's:
Yankees payroll $207 mil.
Red Sox payroll $143 mil.
By Yankee fan math, 207 - 143 = 0.
And Pedroia is outhitting Cano this year.
If Clemens isn't offended (and, in light of the farewell tour and subsequent return, complete with platitudes about what a great organization the Yankees are and how they know how to win), I don't know why you are.
Don't be shifting any burden my way. You have yet to produce a single quote from anyone, anywhere, that shows either Cashman, Stein, Torre, or Clemens had any Bitter, long-lasting resentment or deep-seated ill will as Clemens left after 2003.
start googling. I will be in the lounge
Fair enough. If he doesn't care about the Yankees' hijinks of 2002, why should any of us?
I forgive you and Chris Truby and Albert Belle for your trespasses. Thanks for the note, BTW. You're a softie.
Because we're all deranged. I think that's been pretty well established.
Darren, I was claim that EVERYONE ELSE ON THE BOARD supports. It is up to you to prove you weren't offended.
I'll be in the lounge.
This isn't a situation like the evolving usuage of something like "sucks" (a topic that actually has been discussed at length in several topics over the last few years), where an existing word takes on new meanings.
It's poor grammar.
Okay, Tonto.
Why do people always screw that up? ARRRRRRGHHHHHHH.
I hate that. :P
Why don't people understand that language evolves and expressions change?
This isn't a situation like the evolving usuage of something like "sucks" (a topic that actually has been discussed at length in several topics over the last few years), where an existing word takes on new meanings.
It's poor grammar.
Not to mention that "could care less" means exactly the opposite of what it's intended to mean.
---
243. Sean McNally Posted: May 06, 2007 at 10:23 PM (#2356707)
(snip)
The Pettitte non-signing was a ancillary story line and certainly not a causational factor
McNally apparently already understands that.
Of course, it could always be delivered in a tone such that it is intended not to be taken seriously. "I could care less, I suppose."
See St. Louis Cardinals, 2006.
Thankfully, I still don't believe this makes a Yanks-Bosox ALCS a fait accompli.
The ostensible counterexample being 2005, when the two teams had the same number of wins.
The Yankees did finish ahead of the Red Sox that year, Kevin. They won more head-to-head games, and therefore finished ahead in the standings. Those are the, um, you know, the rules.
(*) People have pointed out his ludicrous fact-free argument about Clemens' strategy being based on his fear of getting caught by the testing regime that can't catch the people Kevin accuses without facts, but they missed the part about his claim that Clemens would come up in June after he had cycled off steroids -- ignoring the fact that minor leaguers get tested.
He could care less. *drumroll*
I also take it you're of the opinion you would've wanted him on the Red Sox and are pissed the Yankees got him instead, yes?
So, you'd knowingly take a juicer you equate to Bonds and Giambi on your team, so long as it made them better?
Please, clear this up for me.
Oh. Then you probably should have done this...[Artie Lange], because he isn't famous enough to go by just Lange.
Read this, my man:
http://yankeefan.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_yankeefan_archive.html
Pertinent excerpt::
No, the deal the Diamondbacks accepted for Schilling was a lesser one than they reportedly demanded from the Yankees, but it was a superior offer to what they Yankees could have constructed without Nick Johnson or Alfonso Soriano.
Or this:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/columnist/bodley/2003-11-27-bodley_x.htm
Pertinent excerpt:
Schilling became their No. 1 target except for signing their free agent lefty Andy Pettitte...but the Diamondbacks' price — Alfonso Soriano and Nick Johnson — was too high.
Etc. But apparently the Yankees were only negotiating with Arizona as a practice drill.
Why are they stuck in the pre-2004 mindset?
Yeah, no kidding.
Name two. With links, preferably.
You know what I smile at, TVE? I smile at the "traditional" Yankees fans that I know in real life deluding themselves into thinking that this is going to save their shitty season.
It's May 7th. Roger Clemens is the best player for the Yankees at this time. As a baseball fan, would you honestly write off a season by your favorite team because of a 5.5 game divisional lead right now?
As fans, we always "delude ourselves" (although I prefer "hope") that our team will turn it around and play better. The Clemens acquisition feeds this feeling among the fan base. Why can't they win the thing now?
Now honestly I felt that they could win the division with only the team as constructed pre-Roger. And today I feel that the acquisition gives them a signficantly better chance to do this. If this is delusional, sign a bunch of us up - not just Yankee fans, but fans of other teams who pin pennant hopes on less than sure things.
Kevin:
It's impossible to "counter-argue" someone who doesn't argue. You don't make arguments, you make assertions. I'll counter-argue as soon as you argue. You're clearly just burned that Clemens didn't choose Boston. Immediately you went to smear mode ("He's a juicer!"), denial mode ("This doesn't matter, we've got Lester and Bucholz, and they'll be Pedroiarrific!"), and distort mode, twisting things other people said. You do this in every Boston discussion, and DMN and others are right: it vitiates your credibility on other issues.
What I don't know is which of these players will have the biggest impact on their teams in 2007. I think it'll be Matsuzaka, but it'll be close.
The amazing thing is that this was NOT forecast anywhere that I saw. There was no buzz about it at my job, and the on-air talent swore up and down that they didn't know this in advance. After the game, Clemens said that none of the players even knew about it.
That's a heckuva frame to hang your picture in. I'm amused at the verbiage - the Sox were "just the same as the Yankees with the same resources and payroll"?
I'd support "closer to", and argue that Sox fans who complain about payroll disparity are tone-deaf and out-of-touch, and this signing doesn't change this.
But arguing that both teams have the same resources and payroll is factually wrong and irresponsible. And while you can never really predict how crazy one person will be about an issue, I'd be really surprised if this person either gained widespread support here or two people independently came up with that scenario.
How should I address fanboy assertion? You're the same guy who argued that Pedroia would be better than Cano LAST YEAR (or was it the year prior?). I made a point about your rotation, and how I hoped for your sake that three guys who have questions keep up their sterling early season performance, and you start blabbering about your AWESOME AA outfield depth. Give me a break. It's like I'm arguing with an 8 year old. RB showed that you were full of #### about Wakefield (who would've been pushed to middle relief had the Sox signed Clemens, don't delude yourself). You mentioned some dude in AA you think more "major league ready" than Hughes. You're nuts. That's not an insult, just a diagnosis.
And please stop the subway token thing, it's painfully inane.
But both productions that I witnessed were caught unawares - it was very obvious to me that they had no idea about it even ten minutes beforehand.
Favorite team, shmavorite team. 5.5 games out with just 133 to play? This race is OVER. You can't name any team in baseball history that climbed that steep a hill. Can't be done.
Once you drop back 5 games with fewer than 140 left, it's really difficult to recover.
I'm mildly embarrassed that I whipped out the "5.5" at this point. Just like when you're older than two you don't get to measure your life in months anymore ("my son is 574 months old"), I don't think there's any call for half-game precision right now.
Now that is ludicrous. Of course the Yankees have a bigger chip stack than everyone else. The bosox have the next highest on the table. The Yankees have a clear advantage in that department. That one advantage is not enough to guarantee victory. The Yanks still have to be smart about personnel, too. But, arguing they do not have an advantage is dumb. Trying to be sematic about previous arguments (and then demanding people spend hours googling) is ponderous.
I won't argue with this.
A decent point, but I don't think the disparity is quite as severe as you think that it is.
Everyone is saying now the injury is minor, and that he could be back by the end of the month, so he should be fine. Besides, people weren't "counting on" him contributing this year anyway. As far as I can tell, things were set up for him to join the rotation in '08. What he gives this year, provided he's better than Igawa, Rasner, et. al, which he seems to be, is gravy.
Absolutely not true.
I'm not a minor league expert, (where's NJASDJDH?) but I'm pretty sure the Yankees have one of the better AAA pitching staffs in baseball. Surely someone there can be spun for help if needed (which seems to be your point). And even when the Yankees have nobody, they are still able to make deals at the deadline (see Abreu, Bobby). As far as help from the farm system this year? What does Hughes count as? We'll see tomorrow about DeSalvo, I guess. 'Hughes alone however is more help than the Yankees get from their farm system in some (most?) years.
This sounds more or less correct. Defense is (and has been for a while) a weakness for the Yankees.
This was already adressed quite sufficiently by another poster.
That's certainly fair, if I were a Boston fan I'd be confident too. Boston has a really good team, and they're in first place with a non-negligible gap on the Yankees. However, the Yankees are still a strong team, and the signing of Clemens only makes them stronger. And while this argument is rational (which is why I am dignifying it with a response) your anti-Clemens tirades have been anything but.
Heh, that's funny.
I'm so bored, this thread was actually amusing. BL, I'm trying to revive the NBA thread...
38.1 IP, 21 K, 18 BB, 2 HR, 2.11 ERA.
I will say that the 2 HR looks ok...
I agree, the Yankees have a clear advantage in the payroll department. I don't think they've leveraged this advantage as well as I'd prefer - part of the reason for this is that with increased resources come increased expectations and responsiblity. There is no doubt in my mind that a mistake like the Bernie contract was a factor in the mistake of the Jeter contract, which was a factor in the mistake of Giambi's contract, and so it goes.
I believe the recent Sox teams very specifically made a decision to press their payroll advantage over other teams the same way that recent Yankee teams pressed their payroll advantage. I don't have a problem admitting that I think the Sox learned from some Yankee mistakes and generally did a better job at this.
I don't expect MCoA to spend much time googling here. But I wanted to make it clear that I felt his assertion did not stand on its own.
Maybe you should go back to ogling coworkers, Kevin, b/c this post is insane.
Would have been Tavarez, not Wakefield. I'm relatively sure Wakefield unless for an emergency will never regularly pitch out of the pen ever.
i don't know you from adam eckstein, but suggesting bucholtz is more prepared for the show than hughes is has to be one of the dumbest things i've read on this site. and clearly THE silliest on this thread, considering the usual hyperbole between sox/yanks fans.
let's get this straight - hughes is tossing a no hitter in the 7th maddux-like efficiency and now you question whether or not he'll be of any use this year, cuz he's going to miss a month?
inserting buchholtz into this only does clay a disservice. he's excelled at AA for a grand total of 5 starts (one rocky, 4 good to great). talk to us in august about clay, cuz hughes has 'been there, done that'.
I'll spell it out for you, Kev. What you wrote above cannot be addressed, b/c it's the irrational ramblings of a sick mind. RB didn't assert, he cited statistics that proved your original assertion about Wakefield false. Being a great scientist with powerful legs, you then typed the above. It characterizes RB's stats as "an assertion" and doesn't address the point. I conceded Wake's great start. That's the basis for the discussion and my "hope" that he continues that throughout the year. It's highly unlikely he will, but in your addled mind, to show he will, you cite the early ERA.
Here, I'll show you again, more slowly.
Step 1: Wakefield is doing great through 6 (?) starts.
Step 2: I say, "I hope he continues to do well." which presupposes step 1.
Step 3: You say, "He will: every so often he is brilliant for the year."
Step 4: RB say, "No, you're wrong: check this out."
Step 5: You say, "RB just asserts; he's wrong. Wake will do great b/c he's doing great!"
How should I "address" that, Kevin? Like I said, go back to office ogling, maybe impress your coworker with your quads.
Halle-#######-lujah.
- Fan of mid-market team with modest payroll.
RB showed by ERA+ that his pattern is not as regular as little k would have us believe, and that two of the three biggest numbers were in his first few seasons in the majors.
I agree that Tavarez was likely the odd man out of the rotation, but that wasn't RB's point.
You mean his 12 inch dong in which my tiny Asian dong is jealous of right?
Small sample size.
You started it, when you "whipped out [your] '5.5'."
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