I love baseball.

What's the point of this in the case of the Rays' lineup here? Wouldn't it make more sense to just have the home-plate umpire ask Maddon which of Zobrist or Longoria is really his 3B? I can kind of see the issue when Manny's listed as the DH and then he goes out to RF - there's actually a rule that explicitly says you lose your DH if he moves to the field, but I don't get why listing two 3B on your initial lineup card isn't something that just gets pointed out and corrected before the game starts.

And he just hit an RBI double...

And he just hit an RBI double...

Well, never mind then. I'll just echo #1, I love baseball.

What's the point of this in the case of the Rays' lineup here?

Well, see, this one goes up to 11 . . . .

And he has an RBI double: 500/500/1000 on the season.

Edit: Matt, what's your cola of choice?

#1 thirded.

there's actually a rule that explicitly says you lose your DH if he moves to the field, but I don't get why listing two 3B on your initial lineup card isn't something that just gets pointed out and corrected before the game starts.

The Indians radio crew was saying there's a rule that says that you're not required to list a designated hitter, but that if you don't list one, you don't get one. They didn't list a DH on their lineup card, so they don't get one.

I suspect that the umpires don't ask for a clarification in advance for the same reason that they allow batters to hit out of order if there's no appeal, or that defensive teams have to appeal a baserunner leaving early on a tag-up. That's just sort of the way things are done.

edit: Also, it became apparent which of the two was the third baseman when Zobrist played third base in the top of the first.

Here it is, rule 6.10:

...It is not mandatory that a club designate a hitter for the pitcher, but failure to do so prior to the game precludes the use of a Designated Hitter for that game.

So if the Rays had been on the road instead of at home, what would have happened if Longoria and Zobrist would have both batted in the top of the 1st before taking the field?

Can Longoria pinch-hit? I don't see why he wouldn't be able to.

I suspect that the umpires don't ask for a clarification in advance for the same reason that they allow batters to hit out of order if there's no appeal, or that defensive teams have to appeal a baserunner leaving early on a tag-up. That's just sort of the way things are done.

Because they're there to enforce the rules, not make sure that you know what they are. They're umpires, not advisors.

Here are the relevant rules.

Rule 6.10(b):

It is not mandatory that a club designate a hitter for the pitcher, but failure to do so prior to the game precludes the use of a Designated Hitter for that game.

Rule 4.01:

Unless the home club shall have given previous notice that the game has been postponed or will be delayed in starting, the umpire, or umpires, shall enter the playing field five minutes before the hour set for the game to begin and proceed directly to home base where they shall be met by the managers of the opposing teams. In sequence—

(a) First, the home manager shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

(b) Next, the visiting manager shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

(c) The umpire-in-chief shall make certain that the original and copies of the respective batting orders are identical, and then tender a copy of each batting order to the opposing manager. The copy retained by the umpire shall be the official batting order. The tender of the batting order by the umpire shall establish the batting orders. Thereafter, no substitutions shall be made by either manager, except as provided in the rules.

(d) As soon as the home team’s batting order is handed to the umpire-in-chief the umpires are in charge of the playing field and from that moment they shall have sole authority to determine when a game shall be called, suspended or resumed on account of weather or the condition of the playing field.

Rule 4.01 Comment: Obvious errors in the batting order, which are noticed by the umpire-in-chief before he calls “Play” for the start of the game, should be called to the attention of the manager or captain of the team in error, so the correction can be made before the game starts. For example, if a manager has inadvertently listed only eight men in the batting order, or has listed two players with the same last name but without an identifying initial and the errors are noticed by the umpire before he calls “play,” he shall cause such error or errors to be corrected before he calls “play” to start the game. Teams should not be “trapped” later by some mistake that obviously was inadvertent and which can be corrected before the game starts.

To sum up, the umpire should point out obvious errors, and the listing of two third basemen should be (IMO) obvious. But Rule 4.01 is really saying (1) if the umpire notices an error he's obligated to point it out, but (2) if it goes uncorrected before "play" is called, they have to work with what they have. In this case, what they have is no DH.

Allowing Longoria to be available as a PH seems a decent compromise within the rules. (Letting him be a DH is a strict violation of 6.10(b).) Properly speaking, Longoria should not have been available, as he was listed in the starting lineup (not as a DH) but did not play the field in the top of the first. Technically, Sonnanstine "replaced" Longoria.

EDIT: I see 6.10 already got posted while I was gathering 4.01. Alas.

what would have happened if Longoria and Zobrist would have both batted in the top of the 1st before taking the field?

Technically, Longoria would have been pinch-hitting for the pitcher, right? So Sonnanstine wouldn't have been able to start the game, I guess.

I don't know, I understand that this follows the rule as quoted in #9. It just seems like the sort of thing that's overly technical - it just seems like the umpire (assuming he noticed, of course) should have pointed out to Maddon that he was listing two 3B and give Maddon a chance to say, "Oh, yeah, duh, I wanted Longoria to DH".

EDIT: And #13 suggests that what I'm suggesting here is what the rules call for and, most likely, in this case, the umps just didn't notice that Maddon listed two 3B.

They should have been forced to use Zobrist and Longoria at 3B.

They should have been forced to use Zobrist and Longoria at 3B.

With no one pitching.

Longoria did wind up coming into the game later on.

Properly speaking, Longoria should not have been available, as he was listed in the starting lineup (not as a DH) but did not play the field in the top of the first. Technically, Sonnanstine "replaced" Longoria.

Except that the pitcher has to face at least one batter. They should've made Longoria pitch to a guy.

It's been a long day, but 15 and 16 had me laughing for a good 3 minutes.

Thanks, guys.

Sonnanstine entered the game with a 4-10 career line with 2 walks and 3 runs scored... and then hits an RBI double today.

Good stuff.

Now if he can get the pitching thing turned around..

Properly speaking, Longoria should not have been available, as he was listed in the starting lineup (not as a DH) but did not play the field in the top of the first. Technically, Sonnanstine "replaced" Longoria.

Except that the pitcher has to face at least one batter. They should've made Longoria pitch to a guy.

Longoria did wind up

Well, there you have it.

Far as I can tell, it's only the seventh extra-base hit by a (Devil) Ray pitcher, ever. (All doubles except for Esteban Yan's dinger in Shea in 2000.)

I admire Tampa's willingness to abandon the DH, and I hope the rest of the league follows suit.

So ... teams don't use a little piece of software to fill out their lineup cards ... software which would prevent you from having two 3B? I know, this mistake happens once a decade or so but surely this can be done with a simple excel macro or something.

As to whether this is an "obvious error", do the rules explicitly recognize any positions other than pitcher (the one batter rule, balk rules, etc.), the catcher (somebody's got to be in that little box behind home plate) and the DH? Teams aren't required to have a 3B, they're required to have a certain number of men in the field. Other than the DH and P, there's no reason that positions even need to be listed on the official lineup card -- and there's no violation if you list one guy as your 2B and another as your 3B but they take the field at the other's position. Similarly, I assume ticking off 2 guys for 3B and nobody at 2B is not, technically, an error as it's not a violation. So ticking off 2 guys for 3B and nobody at DH wouldn't be either.

I'd agree that the spirit of the comment on 4.01 would seem to have given the ump leeway to point out the error (if they noticed it which we don't know) but the two examples listed could potentially lead to violations (or at least confusion over whether there's been a violation in the case of the same last names batting out of order) while this error could not.

So ticking off 2 guys for 3B and nobody at DH wouldn't be either.

I'd assume it would be different. You didn't specify a DH in your lineup card so, thus, you don't have one.

Walt, your reminding me that non-P positions don't really exist as such in the eyes of official MLB rules has really, really pleased me. I'm imagining turning around right now and finding all the Mets gathered around first base, chatting, while Pelfrey pitches.

Not, mind you, that that would be a good idea. God, no. But it would make me laugh.

Other than the DH and P, there's no reason that positions even need to be listed on the official lineup card....

I was trying to find confirmation of the following via Google and couldn't; so maybe I'm mis-remembering, but here goes anyway:

Kevin Mitchell, who played six different positions for the 1986 Mets, once remarked that the lineup card that Manager Davey Johnson would post in the Mets dugout for each game didn't include each player's position. Therefore, if Mitchell saw his name in the starting lineup, the only way he would know which position he was playing was by process of elimination. For example, if he didn't see Keith Hernandez's name in the starting lineup, then Mitchell knew he was playing firstbase; if he saw Hernandez, Ray Knight and Howard Johnson listed as starters then Mitchell knew he was in the outfield; if he didn't see Howard Johnson nor Rafael Santana then he knew he was at shortstop; etc.).

Like I said, I could be mis-remembering, or maybe Mitchell was just having fun with a reporter; but whether it's true or not it makes for a great story, if only because it fits with most descriptions of Davey Johnson's managerial style of 1) not giving a whit about defense; and 2) allowing his players as much as possible to work things out among themselves (i.e. if Johnson had both HoJo and Kevin Mitchell starting, he'd let them decide between themselves which one is playing third and which one is playing shortstop).

DB

According to present day media, pitcher isn't even a position anymore. They refer to the regulars as position players as if the pitcher is no longer position #1. When I first noticed this, I thought they meant the non-designated hitters, not the non-pitchers. Silly me.

Walt, your reminding me that non-P positions don't really exist as such in the eyes of official MLB rules has really, really pleased me. I'm imagining turning around right now and finding all the Mets gathered around first base, chatting, while Pelfrey pitches.

As long as they're standing in fair territory, it could happen.

Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: May 17, 2009 at 07:48 PM (#3182442)

I admire Tampa's willingness to abandon the DH, and I hope the rest of the league follows suit.

a-freaking-men

Would it ever make sense, if you have a good SS and a poor 2B to rotate them when a lefty comes up?

I've thought that on extreme shifts, you might as well have the 3B go to that in-between-1B-and-2B position and let the 2B and SS stay in position rather than have all 3 infielders "out" of position.

When Aaron Hill was still a shortstop, John Gibbons would have him move to shallow right field when the extreme infield shift was on, rather than having second baseman Russ Adams make the move. Hill had a stronger throwing arm and was considered the better choice for that spot.

You only are allowed one firstbaseman's mitt on the field at one time. True? That is a small restriction that knocks it down to 7 interchangeable positions, not 8. But I suppose you could put that mitt anywhere you want to. Or forgo it completely as the Mets did the other day

Since this is about Rays and thus what I'm about to say is at least semi-on-topic: What the hell has gotten into Jason Bartlett this season?

What the hell has gotten into Jason Bartlett this season?

Absolutely nothing, but just to be safe his trainer is saving the needles.