Henn's a lefty, not a righty

I didn't even know the Yankees put him on waivers. He has pretty good stuff, he should be useful for the Padres. Not Heath Bell useful, but useful.

Statistically? Put down the laptop and watch a game, Black!

I submitted this one too. As I said then, I knew Edmonds was done with the little girl the Padres used to announce the lead-off batter in the home half of the third introduced him as "Jim Edwards" in his first game at Petco. I mean, little Suzie deemed him forgettable on the first day...

Lots of veterans are getting released MUCH earlier in the season that I ever remember happening before.

Granted, their numbers suck, but teams used to (rightly or wrongly) let them go for a while longer before making this decision.

Are there any potential major league suitors for Edmonds?

So long, Jim. We hardly knew you here in Padres land.

Alas, you know you are done when you are replaced by Jody Gerut.

Theo Epstein must be calling Kevin Towers to see if he'd like to trade for a centerfielder.

Alas, you know you are done when you are replaced by Jody Gerut.

Damn, I was hoping for a McAnulty, Giles, Huber OF.

363 HRs, 8 GGs, 132 OPS+ from a CFer.

I say those are HoF numbers.

What about Lofton?

Hard to believe he has anything left at all.

I say those are HoF numbers.

You'd like to have seen a little more length to his career, but I think even so he seems to fit in ok with the middle tier of HOF CFers, no?

I say those are HoF numbers.

To quote the brilliant Phil Lynott, "Back on the borderline, one more time".

I predicted before the season started that this season would be a disappointment for the Pads, but I did not expect them to be this bad.

Another thing I said in spring was that they should consider moving Kouzmanoff to LF and putting Headley at 3b. I still think that should be on the table.

As far as Edmonds getting an offer, not sure--maybe Cleveland?

The Angels don't have enough centerfielders. I bet they could assemble an all-centerfield outfield AND infield if they really tried.

The Angels don't have enough centerfielders. I bet they could assemble an all-centerfield outfield AND infield if they really tried.

Clearly, Howie Kendrick for Felix Pie would fill a hole for both teams.

I say those are HoF numbers.

I see only 8 MLB CFers that clearly are better than Edmonds.

“It’s just not happening for him statistically,” Padres manager Bud Black

Jim, the computer released you, not me.

I see only 8 MLB CFers that clearly are better than Edmonds.

Mays, Speaker, Griffey, DiMaggio, Mantle, Cobb. Maybe Snider? Who am I missing here?

Ellsbury :)

This is one dive Jimmy didn't time too well

Yes, Snider. And Hamilton.

Yes, Snider. And Hamilton.

I think its a bit too early to tell on Josh Hamilton.

Hall of Fame? I would take Andruw Jones and Bernie Williams before I took Edmonds. I see nothing that separates him from Fred Lynn, other than the fact that Lynn actually took good routes to fly balls. Edmonds absolutely killed the Cardinals in the 2004 World Series.

I vote a hearty "NO" to Edmonds.

On edit: and that's giving consideration to the fact that Edmonds made the greatest catch I ever hope to see in baseball. I don't dislike him, but he is just not a HOFer in my eyes.

Edmonds is about as perfect a match for Fred Lynn's career you can find, which I first thought when the Angels put him in CF back in 1995. Npw that he's had his obligatory forgetful run with the Padres, his work is done.

I'm surprised that PED rumors haven't dogged Edmonds.

Edmonds absolutely killed the Cardinals in the 2004 World Series.

Yeah, but they wouldn't have been then at all if he hadn't hit the HR in game 6, and if he hadn't been their best player all year.

I see nothing that separates him from Fred Lynn, other than the fact that Lynn actually took good routes to fly balls.

Edmonds' routes weren't a problem during his time in St. Louis.

Yeah, but they wouldn't have been then at all if he hadn't hit the HR in game 6, and if he hadn't been their best player all year.

Cough.

Cough.

He'll be a very interesting HOM candidate in 5 years.

I think he has a better shot with us than from BBWAA, for sure.

AP:

“If we would have been 10-11 games over .500, we might have been able to ride this thing out a little bit longer and wait for him to hopefully better his numbers,” general manager Kevin Towers. “But with the struggles with the ballclub and him struggling offensively and probably not the same defender we’re used to seeing as well, we felt it was time to make a change.”
...
“Right now were at the bottom, in the gutter, if you want to call it that,” Towers said. “We can’t be worried about what people are doing in this division, in front us. We just need to find ways to start winning series. Hopefully if we can find ways to win series we can start becoming a little bit more respectable. We’re certainly looking at maybe making more changes. How many, I couldn’t tell you right now. At this point in time, the way we’re playing, I think you have to look at it.”

The HoM discussion will mostly be interesting for seeing who has bought into the idea that he was a below average defender who tricked the mainstream media into thinking otherwise with his showboating, contrary to the evidence that says otherwise. Emphatically, in some cases.

Cardinals, 2004

Pujols - 172 OPS+, 1B
Rolen - 157 OPS+, 3B
Edmonds - 170 OPS+, CF

I stand by my statement in 26.

EDIT - Oh, and

P - 154 GP
E - 153 GP
R - 142 GP

Cardinals, 2004

Pujols - 172 OPS+, 1B
Rolen - 157 OPS+, 3B
Edmonds - 170 OPS+, CF

I stand by my statement in 26.

Yeah, it's not really much of a contest, frankly.

Edmonds was the MVP of the Cardinals that year.

I think the Hamilton in question was Sliding Billy, not Josh.

Pujols and Rolen both had more runs, more hits and more RBIs than Edmonds (and, as you pointed out, Rolen did it in fewer games).

On top of that, for what it's worth, I calculated a stat - potentially meaningful, potentially not, potentially developed previously here or elsewhere without my having seen it - which calculates the number of games in which a players runs scored plus RBIs equals or exceeds the run differential in games that player's team won. I think that sounds pretty basic, but to illustrate to ensure clarity -- if a player has scores one run and drives in one run in a game his team won 4-2, that game counts in his favor, whereas if he scores 3 runs and drives in 5 in a game his team wins 15-2, that game is not counted. Using this method, which I have found separates the wheat from the chaff on any given team more often then not, I counted the following games:

Pujols: 30
Rolen: 30
Edmonds: 30

So, yeah, I don't blame you for sticking to your guns on this, but it is far from a runaway assertion, and I think you could make a reasonable argument for any of the three as the team's best player that year.

Josh Hamilton is a dead ringer for Jimmy. The batting stance, the swing, the running style, just about everything.

And Josh can play. If TX can get their head out of their bum sometime soon Hamilton will be an MVP candidate.

"Pujols and Rolen both had more runs, more hits and more RBIs than Edmonds (and, as you pointed out, Rolen did it in fewer games)."

Wel, they're not all playing the same position, or as well, yes?

When Larry Walker retired and we discussed his candidacy, the consensus seemed to be that he didn't quite play enough. But even Larry had 600 more PA's than Edmonds has.

I realize RF versus CF but still...

Jim Edmonds, for the Hall of Fame, by Win Shares

The BBWAA has elected seven CFers to the HOF (Cobb, DiMaggio, Mantle, Mays, Puckett, Snider, and Speaker). Compared to these seven, Edmonds currently ranks
Career Win Shares - 7th, with 290 (ahead of Puckett's 281)
Top 10 seasons - 7th, with 256 (ahead of Puckett's 247)
Top 5 consecutive - 7th, with 146 (ahead of Puckett's 136)
Best 3 seasons - 7th, with 95 (ahead of Puckett's 92)
Bill James score - 7th, with 134 (ahead of Puckett's 126)
Kevin Harlow score - 5th, with 91 (ahead of DiMaggio's 90, Snider's 87, and Puckett's 87)
NEWS score - 7th, with 265 (ahead of Puckett's 256)

The VC has elected ten CFers to the HOF (Averill, Ashburn, Carey, Combs, Doby, Duffy, Hamilton, Roush, Waner, Wilson). Copared to the ten, Edmonds currently ranks
Career Win Shares - 6th
Top 10 seasons - 5th
Top 5 consecutive - 4th
Best 3 seasons - 4th
Bill James score - 1st
Kevin Harlow score - 1st
NEWS score - 6th

Compared to a few others (Brett Butler, Chili Davis, Andre Dawson, Steve Finley, Ken Griffey, Jr., Kenny Lofton, Willie McGee, Dale Murphy, Reggie Smith, and Bernie Wiliams)
Career Win Shares - trails Brett Butler, Andre Dawson, Ken Griffey, Jr., Dale Murphy, Reggie Smith, Bernie Wiliams
Top 10 seasons - trails Ken Griffey, Jr., tied with Bernie Williams
Top 5 consecutive - trails Ken Griffey, Jr., Dale Murphy, and Bernie Williams
Best 3 seasons - trails Ken Griffey, Jr. and Dale Murphy
Bill James score - trails Ken Griffey, Jr.
Kevin Harlow score - trails Ken Griffey, Jr.
NEWS score - trails Ken Griffey, Jr., Reggie Smith, and Bernie Williams

So, by Win Shares, it seems to me to be pretty legitimate to think about Mr. Edmonds as a potential member of the Hall of Fame.

Mays, Speaker, Griffey, DiMaggio, Mantle, Cobb. Maybe Snider? Who am I missing here?

I believe the HOM folks would say Charleston.

Pujols and Rolen both had more runs, more hits and more RBIs than Edmonds (and, as you pointed out, Rolen did it in fewer games).

They had more runs in part because they had Edmonds behind them.

And Rolen playing fewer games hurts his case.

And Edmonds had more walks than them. But why are we looking at cherry picked components of offense instead of using a combined metric like OPS+ or OPS or EqA?

the number of games in which a players runs scored plus RBIs equals or exceeds the run differential in games that player's team won

But runs and RBIs are too team dependent to consider at all, let alone attenuating them in this fashion by crediting players differently depending on the final scores of games.

I quite literally never look at runs or RBIs when trying to determine the value of a player.

Looks like Earl Averill is a very close match to Edmonds in important performance categories (Win Shares, OPS+, length of career measured in PAs, etc.). Averill had to wait 34 years after retirement to make the Hall of Fame. Pull up a comfy chair in the waiting room, Jim.

2004 Cards, runs over replacement:

Pujols 99
Edmonds 89
Rolen 89

3 Incredible years. Numbers include hitting, fielding, baserunning, DP, reach on error, OF arms, position adjustment.

I quite literally never look at runs or RBIs when trying to determine the value of a player.

I try to look at as much as possible and don't arbitrarily leave out anything that might tell me something about the player. Are RBI and Runs Scored overrated......sure. Are they worthless in helping come up with a sense of the value a player has provided in the past? I don't agree with that. If you are talking about PREDICTIVE value......they are not worth much. I agree with that.

Edmonds absolutely killed the Cardinals in the 2004 World Series.

Of course, he single-handedly saved games six and seven of the 2004 NLCS before that. Also, the idea that Edmonds took terrible routes to balls is absurd--if a guy as average speed-wise as Edmonds took terrible routes to balls in center field he wouldn't get to any. I watched him for seven years in St. Louis and I never saw any of the dive-timing I was promised going in, only an obvious Hall of Famer on offense and defense.

I try to look at as much as possible and don't arbitrarily leave out anything that might tell me something about the player. Are RBI and Runs Scored overrated......sure. Are they worthless in helping come up with a sense of the value a player has provided in the past? I don't agree with that. If you are talking about PREDICTIVE value......they are not worth much. I agree with that.

I'm saying they're worthless since we have other, better tools. RBIs are basically a function of runners on base and SLG. (Over a career it correlates very high, although the correlation is somewhat less in a single season.) What do they contribute to the discussion, really?

Mays, Speaker, Griffey, DiMaggio, Mantle, Cobb. Maybe Snider? Who am I missing here?

I believe the HOM folks would say Charleston.

To be fair, the original poster did specify MLB.

I can see a team like Seattle hoping that a change of scenery and a switch to the AL will help him turn things around. They could use almost ANYONE that remotely qualifies as a left-handed power bat. (Or anyone that can at least hit .200...which will probably disqualify Edmonds at this point.) I think they'd rather try to trade for Griffey, but Edmonds might be worth it as a cheap risk.

I still harbor a little "Man, f that guy!" resentment towards him as an Angel fan, but I also still have a soft spot for him and it makes me a little sad to think that the career of Jim Edmonds is coming to an unceremonious whimpering end.

I'm with danup: Edmonds is solid HOFer. But I don't see any way he gets in, especially against the competition he'll be facing (think Griffey, among others). I've never gotten the sense that he was regarded by sportswriters as one of the truly elite players in baseball, aside maybe from 2004. Do HOF voters do a good job with positional adjustments in the OF? Somehow I doubt it.

Jimmy was my favorite player for a long time, and he gave the Cardinals some of the most exciting baseball I've had the pleasure to experience. Well done., Jimmy. You're already missed.

2004 Cards, runs over replacement:

Pujols 99
Edmonds 89
Rolen 89

3 Incredible years. Numbers include hitting, fielding, baserunning, DP, reach on error, OF arms, position adjustment.

Interesting. Here's VORP+UZR

Pujols 110
Rolen 90
Edmonds 70

(UZR has both Pujols and Rolen as easy GG candidates, and Edmonds as solidly below average.)

EDIT: fixin' mah facts

Theo Epstein must be calling Kevin Towers to see if he'd like to trade for a centerfielder.

I wonder if Towers is willing to give us Meredith and Bard back for Crisp?

I gottta say, the team Towers put together to compete is very poorly constructed. The rotation besides Peavy is not competitive and who ever gave him the idea that McAnulty is a major league outfielder?

At the risk of annoying some of the HOM voters, here are Dan Rosenheck's career numbers:

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/dan_rosenhecks_warp_data/P400/

Scroll down to comment 422. The whole thread is worth reading, but basically Dan figures his own version of WARP, then applies the 2007 salary estimator $1,200,000*WARP^1.5 + $380,000 to each season of a players career and adds it up. Edmonds comes in at number 101, pretty impressive given how short his career is. If you want to heavily weight peak, he rates even higher.

Still, short of Edmonds getting Puckett-like extra credit, which is pretty unlikely, I don't know that the BBWAA even gives him 5%. Assuming it lasts that long, I would guess that he gets into the HOM, although depending on the competition it may take a few years.

Jim Edmonds has basically had Earl Averill's career.

1668 G, 318/395/534, 134 OPS+
1840 G, 286/377/526, 133 OPS+

Edmonds' advantage in games is slightly boosted by games played at 1B and DH, he's only got about 100 more OF games than Averill.

170, 160, 158, 149, 146, 137, 137, 129, 123, 123, 110, 88 - Edmonds
157, 151, 149, 142, 138, 135, 133, 122, 120, 116, 103 - Averill

Edmonds was notably less durable in-season than Averill, who had seven seasons of 150+ games, while Edmonds had 4. As such, this peak/prime comparison which slightly favors Edmonds should probably be re-balanced back toward even, to account for differences in games played.

The rotation besides Peavy is not competitive and who ever gave him the idea that McAnulty is a major league outfielder?

Young us pretty good. He has allowed 2 ER or less in 5 of his seven starts and Maddux is what he is at this stage of his career, a guy who will post an ERA+ around 95-100 and take his turn every five days. Wolf has been pretty useful so far as well.

As always in these Edmonds-for-HOF discussions, I hope that the people pulling for him are prepared to extend the same courtesy to Brian Giles (who has been, in aggregate, just as good a player for just as long a time, and is still performing at a decent level).

I hope that the people pulling for him are prepared to extend the same courtesy to Brian Giles (who has been, in aggregate, just as good a player for just as long a time, and is still performing at a decent level).

Brian Giles has had the same career as Jim Edmonds as an offensive player, but instead of winning eight Gold Gloves in center field, he won zero gold gloves splitting his time between right and left field.

I believe the HOM folks would say Charleston.

I just said MLB, but yeah, he's clearly ahead. I also have Stearns and Torriente ahead, but I'm less confident in their rankings.

Brian Giles has had the same career as Jim Edmonds as an offensive player, but instead of winning eight Gold Gloves in center field, he won zero gold gloves splitting his time between right and left field.

From '02-'04 Edmonds might've been the best non-Bonds player in the league.

It's been a sad season so far for ex-Cardinals stars of the mid-aughts: Woody Williams, Matt Morris, and Jim Edmonds all released and probably done. Jason Isringhausen looking sadly close to being done. I guess if your old stars are being released, at least it takes some of the sting out to have them being released by other teams.

Compared to a few others (Brett Butler, Chili Davis, Andre Dawson, Steve Finley, Ken Griffey, Jr., Kenny Lofton, Willie McGee, Dale Murphy, Reggie Smith, and Bernie Wiliams)
Career Win Shares - trails Brett Butler, Andre Dawson, Ken Griffey, Jr., Dale Murphy, Reggie Smith, Bernie Wiliams
Top 10 seasons - trails Ken Griffey, Jr., tied with Bernie Williams
Top 5 consecutive - trails Ken Griffey, Jr., Dale Murphy, and Bernie Williams
Best 3 seasons - trails Ken Griffey, Jr. and Dale Murphy
Bill James score - trails Ken Griffey, Jr.
Kevin Harlow score - trails Ken Griffey, Jr.
NEWS score - trails Ken Griffey, Jr., Reggie Smith, and Bernie Williams

If this list is meant to include the top center fielders not currently enshrined, then Fred Lynn and Jimmy Wynn probably merit inclusion here before, say, Brett Butler or Steve Finley, depending on how much weight one puts on career length. Quite possibly others as well, though Lynn and Wynn were the first to come to my mind.

Edmonds was a good CF defender, but Giles was no slouch, as a good corner defender who spent 300+ games in CF. And Giles had a higher offensive peak, as well as a 10-point edge in career OPS+ over basically equivalent playing time. Giles also gets whatever extra career value you feel like giving him, since he's still a starting-quality OF, while Edmonds is done.

Brian Giles has had the same career as Jim Edmonds as an offensive player

Giles has accumulated 388.5 Btruns, Edmonds has 314.8. Bpro gives Giles 426 BRAA and Edmonds 336. I think Giles is pretty clearly superior with the bat, and as others have pointed out, he's still adding to his totals.

Ah, Giles. Missed out on most of the Cleveland Indians postseason run, stuck in Pittsburgh, and then exiled to Petco. Bad luck, sir.

It's the Hall of FAME! Not the Hall of Indecipherable Statistics.

Also on the AHOLE Score Card, with writers, he is just after Bonds and Belle.

He'll never make it, stop dreaming.

Sweetswing
Vote for Bert
and Joe Morgan is not the greatest player ever.

Blackadder, thanks for the shoutout.

Yes, I have Edmonds as a no-doubt Hall member. The obvious comp to me seems to be Duke Snider, who played the same position, with a similar offense/defense breakdown, hitting style, and career shape (very high, prolonged consecutive peak, not a ton of padding). Snider's peak was one notch higher, but Edmonds had more strong All-Star type seasons (like 2005 and 1998) outside of his 2000-04 run of greatness. Could Edmonds doubters say what they see as the big difference between him and the Duke (assuming they find the Duke deserving)? I do think Edmonds' career path and statistical profile reeks of PED's. But you never know.

Giles is definitely a class below Edmonds, again primarily due to spending most of his time at the corners, although I could see an argument for giving him partial credit for the years he was blocked in Cleveland. I do, however, find him a deserving Hall member as well, similar in overall value to Goose Goslin and Jimmy Wynn. Wynn actually seems like a pretty good comp. Wynn spent more time in CF but had a lower, and non-consecutive, peak.

I also think Jason Giambi is over the line. There's not enough there for a pure career voter, but what he did from 2000-02 was sublime--the best 3-year run by a 1B in 1893-2005 MLB history not named Foxx or Gehrig (Pujols may well have passed him too, but I'd have to recalculate my '06 values to check). His 5-year stretch from 1999-2003 was also better than any post-1893 MLB 1B's outside of Foxx, Gehrig, and Bagwell (better than Thomas!). And 05-06 were both terrific offensive seasons, albeit mitigated by missed games and zero defensive value.

Machemer:
I did not make a list to include the top center fielders not currently enshrined. It was just a few contemporaries and near-contemporaries who were good-to-great in CF, just for comparison. Notably absent, in my mind, were Cesar Cedeño, Darin Erstad, and Andruw Jones (I just hadn't looked up their stats). It was not an attempt to evaluate whether Edmonds was the best eligible CFer not in the Hall of Fame.

- I see nothing that separates him from Fred Lynn, other than the fact that Lynn actually took good routes to fly balls.

Edmonds' routes weren't a problem during his time in St. Louis.

Nor were they in Anaheim.

The circumstantial (for lack of a better word) case for Edmonds as a PED user is rather compelling. He increased his power significantly upon joining the Cards and palling up with McGwire. Who has their peak from ages 32 to 34? I'm not saying we damn him, of course; there is no evidence. But we have time to wait.

I certainly suspect Edmonds of PED use, and the fact that he and McGwire were good buddies on the team doesn't exactly allay concerns. But he was traded to the Cardinals on March 23, 2000, and hit 382/515/776 in the following April. Even if the St. Louis welcome wagon included steroids, that's a quick start.

One of the things that changed between Anaheim and St. Louis was his walk rate. That may be a description more than an explanation of his peak, but I have been conditioned to make fun of the Angels' attitude toward the offensive value of the BB.

I think the Hamilton in question was Sliding Billy, not Josh.

You have to dock Hamilton for using illegal substances. Hamilton also had a habit of melting under pressure.

good riddance

Rauch too.

I gottta say, the team Towers put together to compete is very poorly constructed. The rotation besides Peavy is not competitive and who ever gave him the idea that McAnulty is a major league outfielder?

Yeah its pretty bad.
Its probably not even his worst team he put together either.

Two years ago he was set to open the season with Castilla at 3B, and Mirabelli as the main catcher. Lucky for him Piazza fell into his lap at the end of spring. Also in the same year, he traded for Todd Walker and made him a 3B. that lasted two weeks.

he is the sludge merchant, should we expect any less.

I wonder if Theo would trade Crisp for Towers.
Let Depodesta or Alderson run this team.

BTW Depodesta has a blog up. Should be interesting ..

This San Diego operation kinda reminds me when I was partner's with my brother-in-law fantasy team. What we can have EDMUNDS? for a measly 6 MIl? SHEET FAAARR..(slobber, slobber) What goes on in that tiny brain cell is Edmonds = stud = hell ya for like PERMANENTLY. Guy like Pujols would like be no chance for first 5-6 years cuz never done NUTTIN that would indicate he's a PROVEN player, except in that 6th year, would start slobberin but ol BIL cud'nt get him cuz nobody be interested in his slew of ol farts.

only difference is now is the time ol BIL would REALLY get interested cuz now's the time he could afford 'em.