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Friday, July 18, 2008

Ask 14: Jim Rice: Staying Healthy

Much like having to rotate your tires on your car as regular maintenance, to ensure their ultimate longevity, what would you say is the most important thing you can do regarding your physical maintenance as an athlete, to put your self in a position to be productive and healthy over the coarse of a long career in baseball such as yours.

The best way to stay healthy and avoid injury is to know yourself and take care of yourself and listen to your body for warnings of wear and tear.

Back when I played, we didn’t see as many injuries as there are nowadays.  But back in the 1970’s and 80’s we didn’t have the same emphasis on weight and strength training that exists in Baseball today. My theory has been that players today don’t have baseball muscles; they have muscles that let them look good in a uniform.  The training that a lot of players endure is more for vanity rather than excelling at their sport.

The game of baseball is played with 38 oz bat (when I played it was, most are down to 34oz now) and the ball is 4-5 oz.  There is no need for a player to bench press 400 lbs in preparation for swinging a bat or throwing a baseball.  That type of intense strength training makes the players bodies too big and their muscles too tight as well as putting extra stress on joints, ligaments, and tendons.

But Roy White was and always will be a twerp…

Repoz Posted: July 18, 2008 at 12:31 PM | 21 comment(s)
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   1. Rich Rifkin Posted: July 18, 2008 at 01:57 PM (#2863793)
"Back when I played, we didn’t see as many injuries as there are nowadays. But back in the 1970’s and 80’s we didn’t have the same emphasis on weight and strength training that exists in Baseball today."

Jim Rice didn't lift weights, yet he broke down after age 33 (which was normal for a non-great player who did not lift weights):

Age - OPS+
33 - 136
34 - 101
35 - 102
36 - 70

I'm not sure who would be a fair comparison with Rice (a very good, but not great player) who extended his career because he trained with weights. But because he is somewhat comparable to Rice (and did really fall apart physically at the end of his career), how about Ellis Burks:

Age - OPS+
33 - 113
34 - 146
35 - 163
36 - 137

Mr. Vanity, Barry Bonds, (twice the talent of Rice), during the same ages, but prior to PEDs (as far as we know):

Age - OPS+
33 - 178
34 - 155
35 - 188
36 - 259

I think Rice's suggestion ("That type of intense strength training makes the players bodies too big and their muscles too tight as well as putting extra stress on joints, ligaments, and tendons.") is probably untrue.

One other note on Rice: it's funny that he is speaking out on what he did to not get hurt. I remember him (correctly, I looked it up) as a guy who most seasons missed 15-20 games with some sort of dings.
   2. Srul Itza Posted: July 18, 2008 at 02:07 PM (#2863801)
So what he's saying is, steroids don't make a difference, because the extra muscles are a hindrance, and not a help.

Well, who are we to argue with Jim Rice?
   3. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 18, 2008 at 02:09 PM (#2863802)

I think Rice's suggestion ("That type of intense strength training makes the players bodies too big and their muscles too tight as well as putting extra stress on joints, ligaments, and tendons.") is probably untrue.


I agree. While intense strength training does put a non-trivial stress on connective tissues, more injuries probably come from muscle weakness rather than strength. As a weaker muscle fatigues more easily, it places more stress on connective tissues. Over-training still probably accounts for a good portion of injuries, though.
   4. rfloh Posted: July 18, 2008 at 02:27 PM (#2863822)
I agree. While intense strength training does put a non-trivial stress on connective tissues, more injuries probably come from muscle weakness rather than strength.


One thing a lot of people seem to forget, connective tissue can, and does become stronger. Connective tissue becomes stronger for the same reason muscle becomes stronger. Because of stress. Stress isn't necessarily bad. Too much stress is bad.
   5. rfloh Posted: July 18, 2008 at 02:31 PM (#2863828)
Rice isn't necessarily wrong. If a player is spending his time in the weight room pumping up his tits and arms, and sculpting his abs, on machines, instead of strengthening his thighs, ass, lower back, with fundamental exercises like snatches, cleans, deadlifts, squats, back extensions, then he is training for vanity, and not to become a better athlete.

And yes, depending on the training, such as doing too much fixed pattern work, such as with machines, a muscle can become "tight" and injury prone.
   6. kevin Posted: July 18, 2008 at 02:35 PM (#2863832)
A lot of guys lifted themselves out of the game. Wes Chamberlain is a guy who comes to mind.

What Rice is saying is true. Baseball players have to be careful how they lift. Flexibility has to be maintained. Otherwise, all these nagging injuries occur from pulled and hyperextended muscles.
   7. villageidiom Posted: July 18, 2008 at 02:37 PM (#2863835)
Not to defend Rice here, because on balance I think he's misinformed... but players back then and now have a number of injuries simply because they carry more weight than their joints/ligaments/tendons are prepared to handle. Last I checked, increased muscle also increases weight. It's almost certainly not the same as having layers of blubber around one's midsection, but whether it's fat or an equal weight of muscle on one's upper body it should still have a similar impact on one's knees, ankles, etc. when they move that weight in ways nature didn't intend but baseball requires.

That, of course, is with all other things being equal; and I doubt that they are. Someone with a lot of fat in their upper half probably isn't taking good care of the lower half.

Has anyone demonstrated the injury rate as being higher today than in the 70's and 80's?
   8. Craig K, Cardinals late-inning reliever Posted: July 18, 2008 at 02:39 PM (#2863836)
HALL OF FAME!
   9. David Nieporent Posted: July 18, 2008 at 03:05 PM (#2863857)
The best way to stay healthy and avoid injury is to know yourself and take care of yourself and listen to your body for warnings of wear and tear.
It also helps if you DH a lot and don't try to beat out double play grounders.
   10. OCF Posted: July 18, 2008 at 03:22 PM (#2863887)
What Rice is saying is completely unsurprising because it had the status of conventional wisdom around baseball. Most players from the 60's or 70's would have said the same thing, and you certainly saw it in print in many places.

What's interesting is how the example of Honus Wagner was disregarded. I know that Wagner engaged in vigorous off-season conditioning; I'm pretty sure that Wagner lifted weights. He was certainly strong; I assume that when he played, he was usually the strongest man on the field. And how did he age? While he was a great player in his 20's, it took what he did in his 30's to lift him into the inner circle. He had his single greatest year at 34, was a solid MVP candidate at 38, and a useful major league player at 41.

But no, lifting weights is bad for you ...
   11. AROM Posted: July 18, 2008 at 04:19 PM (#2864008)
And how did he age? While he was a great player in his 20's, it took what he did in his 30's to lift him into the inner circle. He had his single greatest year at 34, was a solid MVP candidate at 38, and a useful major league player at 41.


Must have been a roider.
   12. Mike Green Posted: July 18, 2008 at 04:45 PM (#2864054)
Stan Musial also hit the gym and played well into his 40s. Did you have a new plan, Stan?:)
   13. ValueArb Posted: July 18, 2008 at 09:36 PM (#2864435)
This is the same crap that kept HR rates so low in the 70s, players afraid getting stronger would cost them their batting stroke. Now I'm waiting for volume II of Rice's baseball knowledge, where he criticizes todays players for taking too many walks and not being aggressive enough early in the count.
   14. Darren Posted: July 18, 2008 at 09:43 PM (#2864453)
Rice is an idiot, I think he's gone out of his way to make that abundantly clear. Read up on what guys are doing to prepare for baseball today: yoga, targeted strength training, fitness programs specifically designed for baseball. These guys are running down to the local Y and clean-jerking 600 pounds 10 times. If anything, that was more prevalent in Rice's time than it is today.

Rice could have taken care of himself better by getting some ####### glasses when he needed them.
   15. Rich Rifkin Posted: July 18, 2008 at 10:16 PM (#2864489)
"These guys are running down to the local Y and clean-jerking 600 pounds 10 times."

Darren, did you mean to say, "These guys are not running down to the local Y and clean-jerking 600 pounds 10 times."
   16. Ryan S. Posted: July 18, 2008 at 10:21 PM (#2864501)
Joe Morgan nods his head in agreement with Mr. Rice.
   17. Bruce Markusen Posted: July 18, 2008 at 10:50 PM (#2864561)
If by injury rate, we're talking about the number of players that hit the disabled list, I would say there's little doubt that more players go on the DL today than they did in the sixties and seventies, maybe even the early eighties. In some cases, that's teams being more cautious with players, so that would have to be factored in, too.
   18. Darren Posted: July 19, 2008 at 12:51 PM (#2864818)
Yes, meant to say "not." Makes a lot more sense that way. :)
   19. rfloh Posted: July 19, 2008 at 01:07 PM (#2864829)
These guys are running down to the local Y and clean-jerking 600 pounds 10 times. If anything, that was more prevalent in Rice's time than it is today.


I assume you mean "these guys are not running down to to the local Y and CJing 600 pounds 10 times".

Firstly, no human being has ever clean and jerked over 600 pounds. Once. No human, not even once.

Secondly, clean and jerks are among the best exercises for any sport, excellent for strengthening quads, hamstrings, ass, lower back, shoulders, traps, rotator cuffs, in a manner that is very similar to how those muscles are used in sports. Furthermore, the athlete has to learn how to move quickly, and how to coordinate muscles and joints, while generating high amounts of force, in 3 dimensions. Most of the time, an athlete is much better off doing clean and jerks than any "targeted" exercise; especially a "targeted" exercise on a machine that works a specific muscle in isolation, often in one dimension.

<edit: cleaning up grammar>
   20. MM1f Posted: July 19, 2008 at 01:13 PM (#2864831)
Isn't jerking how David Cone became such a good pitcher?
   21. Misirlou don't work cause vandals took the handle Posted: July 19, 2008 at 01:15 PM (#2864832)
Isn't jerking how David Cone became such a good pitcher?


Well, after a while though it wasn't very clean.
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