it is unfair to compare him to Me or Yaz or Williams

Isn't it just as unfair to compare yourself to Yaz or Williams, Jim?

What's especially funny is that, as far as I can tell, Manny was not saying he was the best player to play left in Fenway, but rather, that he was better at fielding his position than any other Red Sox left fielder. I am not sure which is crazier, although it's probably the later.

it is unfair to compare him to Me or Yaz or Williams

Mike Greenwell: "Ouch."

Is Red Sox left field the most dominant team-position of all time? When Mike Greenwell is far and away the worst player to play the position regularly in the past 70 years, it's got to be in the running.

When Mike Greenwell is far and away the worst player to play the position regularly in the past 70 years, it's got to be in the running.

Greenwell was better than Troy O'Leary. And even O'Leary was pretty good for a few seasons before his production fell off a cliff in the midst of his personal life unraveling.

Maybe, if you throw out the year Wil Cordero played there, and the 3 years Troy O'Leary played there.

Yeah, but I ignore the O'Leary era. And the brief Cordero experiment. The floundering between the departure of Gator and the arrival of Manny was never intended to be part of Sox canon.

Edit: Same for the War years.

As a fielder, someone needs to let Manny know that this is a new wall that he’s playing.

Really?

And the years that Billy Hatcher, Hoot Evers, and Johnny Lazor played there.

Is Red Sox left field the most dominant team-position of all time?

I am partial to Yankee catchers, but there you have the problem of the Rick Cerone Era.

The Yankees have had a lot of decent catchers who were there for a few years, though. See 1989-1996. Mike Stanley was good, but even granting the entire Slaught era to the "dominant" side of the ledger, that's 7 years of "decent" before you get to the Girardi WS years.

Cardinals first baseman do pretty well.

Yankees center field has to be a close second here... Hall-of-Famers from 1925-1966 (Combs to Dimaggio to Mantle) with just a few transition years between. Throw in a few years of Rickey Henderson, plus the extended years of solid play from Bernie Williams, Bobby Murcer, Mickey Rivers.... it's right there.

Is Red Sox left field the most dominant team-position of all time?

Someone looked at this, and by every measure they used, Yankee CF was the top.

Also, as Rice later noted, "In my day, the outfield wasn't a field at all. It was a big aligator pit full of acid and sharks. I also had to walk to the ballpark, and it was uphill all the way!"

Now... the worst team-position of all time? White Sox third base is pretty terrible. Eyeballing it, I show a grand total of 5 all-star seasons for them (2 for Ventura, 2 for Jimmy Dykes, 1 for Melton).

20th century Phillies first basemen are lousy too. I have never heard of any of their all-time top 4 leaders in games played at first (Fred Luderus, Sid Farrar, Don Hurst, and Kitty Bransfield. Seriously). Let's hope Ryan Howard's struggles are for real!

Astros first base is pretty consistently good-to-great: Lee May, Bob Watson, Glenn Davis, Jeff Bagwell, Lance Berkman, plus brief stops from Cesar Cedeno, Rusty Staub, and a 129+ OPS from Art Howe in 1980.

the worst team-position of all time?

Braves second basemen.

As a fielder, someone needs to let Manny know that this is a new wall that he’s playing.

Really?

Yes.

When Rice first came up the surface was tin, with wood supports within. (Railroad ties, I think.) I think Yaz used to say that if the ball hit where the supports were it gave a true bounce, while other spots produced a more dead bounce.

In 1976 they padded the base of the wall, after Lynn crashed into the CF wall during 1975 WS Game 6.

At some point early in Rice's tenure they switched to plastic instead of tin, but I think the wall still had a lot of "dead" spots - only now they were "mostly dead".

And IIRC in one of the many improvements since 2002 they improved the supporting structure, effectively eliminating the dead spots.

Elmer Flick, Joe Jackson, Tris Speaker, Earl Averill, Larry Doby, Roger Maris, Jimmy Piersall, Vic Davalillo, Vada Pinson, Joe Carter, Kenny Lofton, Marquis Grissom, Grady Sizemore.

They're hurt by not having many (really, any) mainstays there, but man, that's some lineup of centerfielders in Cleveland.

Also, as Rice later noted, "In my day, the outfield wasn't a field at all. It was a big aligator pit full of acid and sharks. I also had to walk to the ballpark, and it was uphill all the way!"

Which is funny, because it did used to be uphill to the Monster, at least until they got rid of Duffy's Cliff. I think that predates ol' Jim by a few years though.

Astros 2b looks pretty good. Joe Morgan, Craig Biggio, good years from Bill Doran in the 80s, 2 years of Jeff Kent, and also good years from future managers Art Howe (77-78) and Phil Garner (82).

Astros SS might compete on the worst position list.

Cardinals 1B:

Johnny Mize
Stan Musial
Jack Clark
Mark McGwire
Albert Pujols

Giants 1B:

Johnny Mize
Orlando Cepeda
Willie McCovey
Will Clark

This is just off the top of my head. Who did i miss?

Pittsburgh LF isn't too bad either. Ralph Kiner, Willie Stargell, Barry Bonds. And quite a few other good seasons from lesser known guys,.

Giants 1B:

Johnny Mize
Orlando Cepeda
Willie McCovey
Will Clark

Yeah, but since then:
Todd Benzinger
Mark Carreon
JR Phillips
Desi Wilson
Dave McCarty
JT Snow
Lance Neikro
Shea Hillenbrand
Mark Sweeney
The Festering remains of Ryan Klesk
Rich Aurillia (!)
and a couple of AA-ball OFs (Bowker and Ortmeier).

Giants 1B:

Johnny Mize
Orlando Cepeda
Willie McCovey
Will Clark

This is just off the top of my head. Who did i miss?

Just 3 HOFers.

Roger Connor. George Kelly. He may not deserve the HOF but he was a fine player. Bill Terry.

Now... the worst team-position of all time?

Mets SS. According to the starters listed on b-ref, only in 2 seasons did a SS, before Reyes, have an OPS+ above 90, neither reached 100.

Cardinals 1B:

Johnny Mize
Stan Musial
Jack Clark
Mark McGwire
Albert Pujols

This is just off the top of my head. Who did i miss?

Mize > Musial interim was filled mostly by Ray Sanders. Bill White followed the end of Musial's career, and he was pretty good. Then Cepeda, a year of Torre, a year of Dick Allen, more Torre, and Reggie Smith to fill the gap to Keith Hernandez. Pedro Guerrero's last gasp followed Clark, then the good years of Gregg Jefferies, a couple years of John F. Mabry, and half a year of Dmitri Young leading into McGwire.

Really, the only stretch where the Cardinals weren't very well off at 1B was the meat of Musial's career, when he was playing the outfield and various scrubs played first.

Mets SS

Before the present regular at the position, Mets 3B were consistently atrocious for a long time.

Before the present regular at the position, Mets 3B were consistently atrocious for a long time.

Howard Johnson wasn't bad.

Elmer Flick, Joe Jackson, Tris Speaker, Earl Averill, Larry Doby, Roger Maris, Jimmy Piersall, Vic Davalillo, Vada Pinson, Joe Carter, Kenny Lofton, Marquis Grissom, Grady Sizemore.

Well, if you include guys who spent 1 year with a team (Flick), guys who were at the end or beginning of their career only (Maris and Piersall), guys who played the position sparingly (Jackson), or guys who were names but not really that good (Davalillo) many teams can make similar claims:

Cubs second basemen:

Cupid Childs
Johnny Evers
Heinie Zimmerman
Larry Doyle
Rogers Hornsby
Billy Herman
Tony Taylor
Glenn Beckert
Manny Trillo
Ryne Sandberg

Since Pafko in 1950, other than the Rick Monday era, Cubs CF has been pretty bad. Pafko and Hack Wilson are the team leaders in CF games with 742 and 794 respectively. Monday (649) is the post-Pafko leader. True, since 1950, almost everything on the Cubs has been pretty atrocious. Despite its bad press, the Cubs have actually done pretty well at 3B -- Santo, Madlock, Cey, Ramirez combined for 27 years of pretty good production (we'll not discuss the other years). The main thing about the Cubs is that, at least since Banks, they almost always have at least one legit star (sometimes even superstar) in the field and a top starter -- Zambrano, Maddux, Reuschel, Fergie (with some Wood/Prior/Sutcliffe thrown in) is a pretty nice run. But probably a lot of teams can say they've had a top pitcher in most seasons.

But that star/superstar position player is one thing that distinguishes the Cubs from the White Sox. Both teams have generally been dismal for the last 50 years but the Sox have almost never had real stars. Heck, until Frank Thomas, the all-time franchise HR leader was Bill Melton with 154. Banks hit more than that from 1955-58. (Obviously a lot of that was old Comiskey being an awful HR hitting park.) The Sox have done pretty well at C and 2B. But at the slugging positions of 1B, 3B, LF and RF, nobody significantly passes 1200 games in the entire history of the franchise* -- and most of those are of fairly recent vintage (Thomas, Ventura, Baines, Konerko). *-splitting Thomas between 1B and DH and Baines between RF and DH which isn't quite fair now is it?

Now here's a trivia question -- Cub leader in DH games? Glenallen Hill with 13.

I think THT did this with Win shares. Yankee CFs narrowly beat out the Red Sox LFs.

Mets SS are probably the worst.

THT article

It actually uses RCAA. NYY CF > BOS LF > NYY RF > STL 1B.

THT article

It actually uses RCAA. NYY CF > BOS LF > NYY RF > STL 1B.

OK. That was prior to the 2006 season. How long before Pujols pushes the cards higher? Has it already happened?

He hasn't made up 300 runs on Damon/Melky, but maybe by the time his career is over he will have vaulted them nearer the top.

He hasn't made up 300 runs on Damon/Melky, but maybe by the time his career is over he will have vaulted them nearer the top.

OK, but has he made up 64 runs on Abreu?

Dante Bichette
Matt Holliday

Well, it's a start.

This is fun. Having obsessively followed the Rangers in their early years, my mind instantly went to Joe Lovitto when it comes to starting a "worst position" list o' Rangers in CF....

Joe Lovitto (RIP)
Vic Harris
Dave Moates
Juan Beniquez (exception to suckiness)
a slow 32-year old Al Oliver
a 30-something year old Mickey Rivers
George Wright
Gary Ward
Oddibe McDowell
Cecil Espy
Gary Pettis
Juan Gonzalez (before quickly moving to a corner)
David Hulse
a 36-year old Otis Nixon
Darryl Hamilton
Damon Buford
Tom Goodwin
Gabe Kapler
Ruben Rivera
Ryan Christenson
Laynce Nix
Gary Matthews Jr. (who of course left pronto when it was possible)
a 412-year old Kenny Lofton

Most striking is the utter inability to combine fast-CF with hitting-CF. Plus there's the "where CFs go to die" over-the-hill aspect. Meanwhile, I can't for the life of me remember Damon Buford ever playing with the Rangers...or Ruben Rivera for that matter.

Heck, until Frank Thomas, the all-time franchise HR leader was Bill Melton with 154.

That's not true. Baines passed Melton in 1987 and then Fisk passed Baines in 1990 as White Sox all-time homer leader before Frank took over the franchise record in 1996.

That's not true. Baines passed Melton in 1987 and then Fisk passed Baines in 1990 as White Sox all-time homer leader before Frank took over the franchise record in 1996.

My bad.

the worst team-position of all time?

Braves second basemen.

It's Phillies second basemen, and it isn't even close.

When Placido Polanco put up a 113 OPS+ in 2003, with good defense, he pretty easily had the best season in the history of the franchise at the position. Polanco's three-year run, before Utley established himself, had given Polanco a pretty good case that he was the best second baseman in the history of the Phillies.

Phillies shortstops and first basemen have a good case for next worst.

When Placido Polanco put up a 113 OPS+ in 2003, with good defense, he pretty easily had the best season in the history of the franchise at the position. Polanco's three-year run, before Utley established himself, had given Polanco a pretty good case that he was the best second baseman in the history of the Phillies.

Only if you disregard anything prior to 1901:

Lajoie at 2B OPS+ of 155, 137, 169, 140 from 1897-1900

edit Even if you want to disregard Lajoie, I don't see how Polanco was better than Juan Samuel. Sure he was a brutal defender, but he played every day for 5 years with OPS+ of 107, 102, 102, 116, and 93, with as many as 72 SBs (at a good rate). Polanco never played more than 130 games for the Phils, and never more than 110 at 2B. Samuel's 1984 is much better than Polanco's 2003.

Cubs second basemen:

Who from among the 14 2b on the current roster will emerge to continue this trend!

Who from among the 14 2b on the current roster will emerge to continue this trend!

Well, Mark Derosa has already been a better player for the Cubs than Marquis Grissom was for the Indians.

Samuel's batting runs, 1984: +1.6. Give him another 7 runs for basestealing. Polanco, 2003 is +10.8 batting runs. Then there's defense, which is probably more than a 20 run swing in Polanco's direction.

Samuel was an exciting player, much more than Polanco, but Placido was better.

The Earthquake in China only happened because the ground trembled in fear of Jim Rice.

Only if you disregard anything prior to 1901:

Or the kind of OK player they have there now.

#43- The baseball gods must agree that the Phillies have had some of the worst 1B, 2B, and SS in the history of the game, which is why the current team has MVP winners at each position to make up for it (yes, I'm saying that Utley will win this year).