Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Saturday, June 23, 2007

ATL Journal-Constitution: Chipper resents Smoltz’s remarks (RR)

Jones returned from a sore groin and hit a home run in Saturday’s 2-1 loss to Detroit at Turner Field… Then he took a shot at Smoltz for what Jones believed were disparaging remarks after Jones sat out Friday’s loss to the Tigers, in which Smoltz pitched.

“I’ll play the rest of the games this year and do what I can,” Jones said, then followed it with a clear jab at Smoltz: “Somebody I know better not miss a start, though.”
...
Jones said before the game he wasn’t completely recovered but felt pressure to play — because of three consecutive shutouts, but also because of comments by people who “don’t believe (that he’s hurt).”

Smoltz… was asked afterward if his Friday comments had been directed at Jones. The pitcher smiled and said, “I have no comment. I’m not even going to address that right there.”
...
Minutes later, Jones came from the training room and spoke with reporters. He was asked if he thought Smoltz’s comments Friday were aimed at him. “I don’t know. You guys interviewed him last night, how’d y’all take it?” Jones said, and there was a silent pause that seemed to confirm to the third baseman what he believed.

“I’d be stupid if I didn’t take it the same way,” he said.

NTNgod Posted: June 23, 2007 at 10:42 PM | 110 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralAtlanta

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >
   1. Latnam is busy defending the Public. One at a time Posted: June 23, 2007 at 10:47 PM (#2414730)
Good Lord. Has it really come to this?
   2. Sam M. Posted: June 23, 2007 at 11:01 PM (#2414741)
Wow. Teammates since 1993 -- this is their 15 season together, and this would emerge? Unreal. That Smoltz might have whatever opinion he has doesn't necessarily surprise me; that he would let it come out publicly shocks me completely. Just . . . wow.
   3. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 23, 2007 at 11:11 PM (#2414761)
John Smoltz is a self-righteous ass.
   4. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: June 23, 2007 at 11:12 PM (#2414765)
They've been hanging around the Cubs too much.
   5. flournoy Posted: June 23, 2007 at 11:14 PM (#2414769)
John Smoltz and Chipper Jones don't particularly like each other - if you read between the lines in any of their comments about each other from the past decade, it's not too hard to see. I don't like to see this more forthcoming banter though.
   6. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 23, 2007 at 11:18 PM (#2414776)
John Smoltz is a self-righteous ass. I'm sure he thinks Chipper needs to go to church more often or something equally stupid.
   7. Nasty Nate Posted: June 23, 2007 at 11:46 PM (#2414833)
Chip was healthy enough to homer off of V-Man so mayble smoltz had a good point
   8. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 23, 2007 at 11:51 PM (#2414839)
John Smoltz is a self-righteous ass. Chipper has never missed entire seasons due to "elbow pain." #####.
   9. Sam M. Posted: June 24, 2007 at 12:00 AM (#2414849)
Chip was healthy enough to homer off of V-Man so mayble smoltz had a good point

If he has a point (good or otherwise), the way to make it is to keep it within the team, not talk to the press about it. I don't know if calling out your teammate to the media on an issue like this makes you a self-righteous ass, but it definitely makes you a piss-poor teammate. And how in the world does Smoltz know whether Chipper Jones would be hurting or helping the team by playing, or whether he is capable of taking the field, or whether sitting for a couple of days now increases his chances of playing more games later? He should STFU and pitch, and let Chipper and Cox and the trainers worry about the third baseman.
   10. Nasty Nate Posted: June 24, 2007 at 12:07 AM (#2414856)
If he has a point (good or otherwise), the way to make it is to keep it within the team, not talk to the press about it. I don't know if calling out your teammate to the media on an issue like this makes you a self-righteous ass, but it definitely makes you a piss-poor teammate. And how in the world does Smoltz know whether Chipper Jones would be hurting or helping the team by playing, or whether he is capable of taking the field, or whether sitting for a couple of days now increases his chances of playing more games later? He should STFU and pitch, and let Chipper and Cox and the trainers worry about the third baseman.


right. i just find it funny that chipper hits the dinger in the game he's bullied into playing, whether or not John Smoltz is a self-righteous ass
   11. Jeff K. Posted: June 24, 2007 at 12:12 AM (#2414860)
John Smoltz and Chipper Jones don't particularly like each other - if you read between the lines in any of their comments about each other from the past decade, it's not too hard to see. I don't like to see this more forthcoming banter though.

This has to got to be hard, though. We've all worked with someone we strongly dislike. Now imagine that you work side-by-side with that person for 15 years. And every day, 5 or 6 people, and up to a couple hundred (World Series) ask your opinion on things. Forget letting something slip during those 15 years, imagine that you can see the end of your employment coming. How difficult would it be to not finally say something?
   12. JMN Has Mastered Impact and Dominate Posted: June 24, 2007 at 12:47 AM (#2414895)
Yes, Chipper hit a home run today. He was also obviously in a good deal of pain earlier in the same at bat.
   13. danup Posted: June 24, 2007 at 01:30 AM (#2414907)
John Smoltz is a self-righteous ass. I'm sure he thinks Chipper needs to go to church more often or something equally stupid.

Yeah, I bet he makes rash judgments about the kind of person somebody is based on, say, their religion! What a douche!
   14. Raskolnikov Posted: June 24, 2007 at 03:10 AM (#2414919)
Does this mean Chipper's on the block? Hey, I'd forgive him and welcome him on the Mets.
   15. The Clarence Thomas of BTF (scott) Posted: June 24, 2007 at 03:59 AM (#2414924)
Does this mean Chipper's on the block? Hey, I'd forgive him and welcome him on the Mets.

his kid's already properly named.
   16. Craig Calcaterra Posted: June 24, 2007 at 06:33 AM (#2414937)
16. Brian McCann Posted: June 24, 2007 at 06:20 AM (#2414925)

I hate it when mom and dad fight (sniff).


Other teams have way worse than this kind of thing pop up every so often, but the Braves have been mostly strife-free for the past, hell, 20 years. The last time I saw Brave-on-Brave hostility like this was in early 1988 when Ozzie Virgil and some starter got into an all-out-shouting match on the pitcher's mound in Dodger Stadium towards the end of their season-opening losing streak. Thank god Glen Hubbard was there or else punches would have been thrown. Of course, this being the 1988 Braves, everyone would have missed.
   17. Ivan Grushenko of HK in St Louis Posted: June 24, 2007 at 06:56 AM (#2414939)
I heard Ruth and Gehrig didn't particularly like each other. Didn't turn out too badly.
   18. Craig Calcaterra Posted: June 24, 2007 at 07:03 AM (#2414941)
I heard Ruth and Gehrig didn't particularly like each other. Didn't turn out too badly.


Are you crazy?! They're both DEAD now!
   19. Raskolnikov Posted: June 24, 2007 at 09:37 AM (#2414967)
I heard Ruth and Gehrig didn't particularly like each other. Didn't turn out too badly.

Yeah, but Ruth never publicly criticized Gehrig for sitting it out when he could have played.
   20. Lassus Posted: June 24, 2007 at 09:41 AM (#2414968)
An actual rare, literal laugh-out-loud, Craig. Nice one.
   21. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 24, 2007 at 09:49 AM (#2414973)
Yeah, I bet he makes rash judgments about the kind of person somebody is based on, say, their religion!

Oh look, you make a point about Smoltz, a known religious bigot, but really you're "ironically" making a point about my intolerance of his "religious freedom" or something. How clever. You're a clever monkey, you are. I'm sure put in my place. I'm so sad for having made Little Baby Jesus cry!

John Smoltz is still a self-righteous ass. Chipper should knock up Smoltz wife just to say he did.
   22. bringbackthechiefs Posted: June 24, 2007 at 10:03 AM (#2414980)
Craig, hysterical comment. Thanks.
   23. Cowboy Popup Posted: June 24, 2007 at 10:05 AM (#2414981)
Why do you rarely post, and only then to tee off on or insult someone? Don't you have anything else on your mind except to garden your misanthropy?

Interesting question coming from the biggest douche bag on the board.
   24. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: June 24, 2007 at 10:06 AM (#2414982)
Yeah, but he posts all the time.
   25. Raskolnikov Posted: June 24, 2007 at 10:07 AM (#2414984)
Uh-oh. I feel a multi-poster flame thread coming up ...
   26. Latnam is busy defending the Public. One at a time Posted: June 24, 2007 at 10:21 AM (#2414995)
Uh-oh. I feel a multi-poster flame thread coming up ...

I agree, can't we just focus on the Braves' implosion centered on their best pitcher and best position player who've each been with the team their whole careers?
   27. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: June 24, 2007 at 10:22 AM (#2414996)
Let me translate this one for everybody:

10.5 games behind.


Yeah, only Yankee fans wish you'd die in a grease fire, and they've only just now come to the realization, based on their team's relative standing in the division.
   28. Paul Posted: June 24, 2007 at 11:00 AM (#2415010)
Now, now babies. Let's get back to the original issue. Ruth and Gehrig got along well for years; it was their wives that caused the trouble. On the other hand, Tinker and Evers did not speak for many years. Another non-baseball duo who worked well together despite a major fight were Gilbert and Sullivan.
   29. Better Schafer than Sorry Posted: June 24, 2007 at 11:16 AM (#2415023)
This one is coming apart at the seams. nice example to set, ########### vets!
Smoltz being a religious bigot is neither here nor there. He is just ####### loudmouth. If he started a blog, there would be no difference between him and Schilling. I side with Chipper here. There was just no call for this at this point of time.

I did find post #22 ironic though. and post #26 childish. well done red sox. spent $150 million and after ages, you might even win a division. reminds me why i can't stand those red sox ####### after 2004
   30. Jeff K. Posted: June 24, 2007 at 11:47 AM (#2415044)
You know, not every ####### thread has to be another Red Sox/Yankees #########. Take it to your respective team blogs. The rest of us are sick and tired of it.
   31. alex perros gives up the ghost Posted: June 24, 2007 at 12:57 PM (#2415134)
I say put all the Sox and Yanks fans in Yankee Stadium and seal the exits.

Do it on the day they tear the place down.

As for Smoltz and Jones, I imagine they are both frustrated that the Braves' best days are behind them. They should duke it out, but Chipper would likely hurt himself even thinking about throwing a punch.

They should each have to present the other when they are inducted in Cooperstown.
   32. 44magnum Posted: June 24, 2007 at 01:14 PM (#2415174)
Other teams have way worse than this kind of thing pop up every so often, but the Braves have been mostly strife-free for the past, hell, 20 years. The last time I saw Brave-on-Brave hostility like this was in early 1988 when Ozzie Virgil and some starter got into an all-out-shouting match on the pitcher's mound in Dodger Stadium towards the end of their season-opening losing streak. Thank god Glen Hubbard was there or else punches would have been thrown. Of course, this being the 1988 Braves, everyone would have missed.

IIRC, that was immediately follolwing a pop up that maybe Gerald Perry, Oberksmell,and Virgil all converged on then let drop? Just laughable. Then to argue and point fingers at one another. Just laughable. The essence of a losing team.
   33. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 24, 2007 at 01:22 PM (#2415195)
Why do you rarely post, and only then to tee off on or insult someone?

Kevin, I post when and where I feel like it. Why would you have a problem with that?
   34. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 24, 2007 at 01:32 PM (#2415212)
I would like to lend my support to the people who are of the opinion that Smoltz is a douche.

That is all.
   35. AROM wants you off his lawn Posted: June 24, 2007 at 01:39 PM (#2415227)
but really you're "ironically" making a point about my intolerance of his "religious freedom" or something. How clever.

I'm sure he was waiting with this comment from the start. It took him 3 comments saying the same thing about Smoltz before somebody bit. Lesson to primates: Do not feed the troll and it might eventually go away.
   36. cardsfanboy Posted: June 24, 2007 at 01:57 PM (#2415275)
I'm wondering if Smoltzs comments was a dig into Chipper for the comments Chipper made about JD Drew the year Drew was on the team.
   37. Does Aaron Hill Have To Smack A Pitch? Posted: June 24, 2007 at 02:03 PM (#2415303)
19. Raskolnikov Posted: June 24, 2007 at 09:37 AM (#2414967)
I heard Ruth and Gehrig didn't particularly like each other. Didn't turn out too badly.

Yeah, but Ruth never publicly criticized Gehrig for sitting it out when he could have played.


I think this deserves a "Subtle Primey".
   38. Craig Calcaterra Posted: June 24, 2007 at 02:03 PM (#2415308)
IIRC, that was immediately follolwing a pop up that maybe Gerald Perry, Oberksmell,and Virgil all converged on then let drop? Just laughable. Then to argue and point fingers at one another. Just laughable. The essence of a losing team.


I think you're right. It's actually a fond memory for me. I was 14, my family had just moved to a new city, our new house wasn't ready yet so we were living in a hotel, I had no friends, and I had a broken ankle from a mishap during my going away party from my old city the week before. It's about as low as a 14 year-old can get. All I had was the Braves on TV, and the only reason they weren't the worst thing in baseball that month was because the Orioles were losing more. When Virgil and whoever started jawing at each other it (or maybe what Skip was saying about it) made me laugh out loud. Things improved right after that.
   39. Craig Calcaterra Posted: June 24, 2007 at 02:07 PM (#2415325)
By the way, the putrid play (1 run in 38 innings) and the strife all couldn't be happening at a better time. Not only are blowing one of the few opportunities the Mets are going to give us this season, but it's coming during a week with four, count em, four national broadcasts (Monday and Wednesday vs. Red Sox, yesterday and tonight vs. Tigers).

Yes sir, the Bravos are putting their best foot forward!
   40. Lassus Posted: June 24, 2007 at 03:10 PM (#2415558)
Kevin really is nothing compared to Hutch, seriously. You might have to be following the National League teams to realize it, though. Has Kevin supported players punching umpires and other BTF posters in the face, and praying for god to strike them dead with lightning?

This is why Selig instituted interleague play - to get the difficult posters more familiar with each other and create new rivalries.
   41. gay guy in cut-offs riding a stegosaurus (MH#1F) Posted: June 24, 2007 at 03:20 PM (#2415597)
I don't know -- I read the supposedly disparaging remarks and didn't see what the big deal was. The guy's been injured himself, the team has suffered through injuries and chronic ineffectiveness -- of course they all wish they were feeling better. If it were Jeter out there saying "we can't worry about who's hurt and who's not, we just gotta do the best we can with the team we have on the field", he'd get the usual sloppy tongue kiss from the media for being a great leader.

On the other hand, his finger-pointing on Saturday night about how it was an issue because of what Chipper said, not because of what he said -- that's not helpful, to me. He might be right, but you don't say so, especially when you are. In that sense, it's like arguing with your wife -- the last thing you want to do is hammer home the fact that you were right.
   42. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 24, 2007 at 03:47 PM (#2415659)
I'll let you members of the moral army of god BTF know when I'm terribly concerned with your opinions of myself or my posting habits. I'll make an extra-special point to let you know when I feel I need etiquette lessons from Red Sox or Yankee fans. I promise I will give you a call when that happens.

I repeat myself re: Smoltz being a self-righteous ass because John Smoltz is, in point of fact, a self-righteous ass. He's also a sanctimonious prick. This is not news to anyone who follows the Braves with any regularity.
   43. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: June 24, 2007 at 03:57 PM (#2415671)
Now there's an interesting comment coming from someone who feels there isn't sufficient civility...

I realize you thought this was some kind of clever rejoinder, but I'm afraid you have me confused with someone else; I've been too busy telling your ringleader to slit his own wrists to ever call for civility.
   44. alex perros gives up the ghost Posted: June 24, 2007 at 11:26 PM (#2416288)
Post #44 -- awesome.

Just out of curiosity, I checked the figures on Kevin and Sam and myself for number of posts, which only goes back to the '05 re-vamping.

Sam: 1087

Me: 1095

Kevin: 22,257

An interesting justaposition.

As for Smoltz, I forgive him his priggery, like I forgive Chipper his philandering and Bonds his injecting and Babe his overindulgences in women, liquor and food, and even Ty Cobb his racism. They have all given me much pleasure in my life, and are, after all, like myself and Kevin and Sam, all-too-human.

Their plus side far outweighs their minuses in my book. Hopefully, the same can be said for Sam and Kev and me by the people who actually know us.
   45. Esoteric can feel Strasburg slowly slipping away Posted: June 24, 2007 at 11:43 PM (#2416301)
Wait a second here, what is everybody's problem with John Smoltz again?

Is it just that he's a committed Christian and proud of it? I'm out of the loop on a lot of this stuff, and maybe Smoltz has said some stupid stuff, but given BBTF's well-known bigotry towards traditional Christianity I'm kind of skeptical that he's really guilty of "priggery" or of being a "self-righteous ass," at least as most normal people would describe those terms.

Please feel to enlighten me with relevant quotes and links, though.
   46. alex perros gives up the ghost Posted: June 25, 2007 at 12:01 AM (#2416323)
'Committed Christian" is fine, it's the 'proud of it' part that rubs people the wrong way.

Or calling others bigots and referring to oneself as "normal people".

Doesn't the Good Book say something about pride goeth before the fall? He who is without sin casting the first stone? Picking the mote out of one's own eye before removing it from another's?

Judge not lest ye be judged?

Or simply 'practice what you preach', which was Chipper's rejoinder?
   47. alex perros gives up the ghost Posted: June 25, 2007 at 12:52 AM (#2416359)
Update on the story has Jones meeting with Smoltz, Cox and Pendleton and apologizing for his comments in the press.

Jones extensively explained his thinking. It's understandable why he would be sensitive considering how many games he misses with injury.

Smoltz stated it was over and done with.
   48. Esoteric can feel Strasburg slowly slipping away Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:04 AM (#2416363)
#50 - Jeff:

Please do note that I'm a commited agnostic/atheist myself. But as such, in the United States of America, I have the good sense to realize that statistically speaking, I am not among the majority, and hence am not qualified to consider myself a "normal person," at least insofar as that one issue goes.

Moreover, even though I don't belong to the "normative" viewpoint, I can still recognize the massive societal good that religious belief engenders in a populace. Let's face it: libertine values are all well and good from the viewpoint of personal maximization of pleasure, but there's a serious "tragedy of the commons" zero-sum effect involved in that sort of "Chipper Jones" behavior that ultimately tears down civilizations given free reign (see: Ancient Rome, modern Europe). So if John Smoltz (or Curt Schilling) wants to indulge in public moral "priggery," not only will I refrain from criticizing them (despite having a completely different personal belief system), I applaud them as contributing to the greater health of the American public.
   49. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 12:18 PM (#2416648)
Let's face it: libertine values are all well and good from the viewpoint of personal maximization of pleasure, but there's a serious "tragedy of the commons" zero-sum effect involved in that sort of "Chipper Jones" behavior that ultimately tears down civilizations given free reign (see: Ancient Rome, modern Europe).

Horseshit. Provide some sort of argument to back this fantasy up.

s/
   50. Does Aaron Hill Have To Smack A Pitch? Posted: June 25, 2007 at 12:35 PM (#2416667)
I can still recognize the massive societal good that religious belief engenders in a populace.

As long as you can still recognize the massive societal evil that religious belief engenders in a populace.
   51. Esoteric can feel Strasburg slowly slipping away Posted: June 25, 2007 at 12:48 PM (#2416679)
53 - Sam:

Umm, well the "Chipper Jones" part was uncalled-for (and frankly inaccurate) snark, but if you seriously doubt the fact that traditional "family values," promote national/societal health while constraining personal liberty in certain ways, then we're on different planets. That's as uncontroversial an anthropological observation as exists in the field; it's why mankind developed such societal mores (and also why "religion" has evolved into an enforcer of behaviors that often benefit the group more than the individual). Again, I speak as a neutral observer; I have no brief for fundamentalists, or even religion of any sort.

54 - RTG:

Oh sure, if by that you're talking about the potential for bigotry, ignorance, magical thinking, anti-intellectualism, etc.
   52. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 12:58 PM (#2416697)
That's as uncontroversial an anthropological observation as exists in the field; it's why mankind developed such societal mores...

If it is such an uncontroversial observation then you shouldn't have any trouble finding some citation or study to back it up. Once you do that we can discuss your statement to the effect that the Roman Empire and "modern Europe" are somehow failed or failing because of a failure of such treacly talking points as "family values."

s/
   53. HowardMegdal Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:11 PM (#2416705)
With the Braves fading from the NL East race, should the Mets target Jones or Smoltz? Jones could play first, presumably, help out some in left, and even spell Wright occasionally at third (better option than Julio Franco there).

Smoltz would look nice at the top of the rotation, though.

If only these two got along, allowing the Mets to acquire both...
   54. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:13 PM (#2416707)
Howie, if you want Smoltz or Chipper you can pretty much bank on sending Wright down to Atlanta.

Yeah, I didn't think so.
   55. HSF Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:19 PM (#2416711)
Ty Cobb's pluses outweigh his minuses? Now that is forgiving.
   56. cheng Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:25 PM (#2416715)
"but there's a serious "tragedy of the commons" zero-sum effect"

Was this an attempt at parody? Otherwise, that doesn't mean what you think it means. I think you were going for negative externalities, not tragedy of the commons (which is a kind of negative externality, but not applicable to what you brought up). Who knows, maybe I'm way off on that - I'm no economist - but that's not what I understand that phrase to mean.

BTW, I'm Christian and won't touch any of this tired old persecution/martyr thing, except to say that Smoltz certainly says things a self-righteous ass would say. For that matter, so does Sam Hutcheson.
   57. HowardMegdal Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:25 PM (#2416716)
Howie, if you want Smoltz or Chipper you can pretty much bank on sending Wright down to Atlanta.

I was joking about trading for either of these guys, but are you really under the impression that it would take dealing the 24-year-old Wright for either 35-year-old Chipper or 40-year-old Smoltz?
   58. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:30 PM (#2416722)
Cheng, I am more of a sanctimonious prick, really.

Howie, yes, if the Atlanta Braves were going to deal one of their franchise superstars intra-division then the receiving team would have to send some serious talent back to Atlanta. The Braves are not in a Millwood-for-Estrada situation and unless they get there again you'd have to give talent to get talent.

As this trade would never happen, even if both guys were not 10-5ers, it's all moot.
   59. Chris Dial Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:32 PM (#2416727)
Chipper and Smoltz aren't going anywhere.

Andruw would be if he didn't suck.
   60. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:37 PM (#2416738)
Andruw wouldn't be going anywhere, kiddo. He's 10-5.
   61. HowardMegdal Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:39 PM (#2416741)
if the Atlanta Braves were going to deal one of their franchise superstars intra-division then the receiving team would have to send some serious talent back to Atlanta. The Braves are not in a Millwood-for-Estrada situation and unless they get there again you'd have to give talent to get talent.

It wouldn't take a Wright package, though, I would guess. I'm guessing the Braves would take a Milledge/Mulvey/Carp package and not look back for Smoltz. Milledge could take over for Jones in CF in '08, Carp is a fine option at 1B (and frees up Salty for a pitching trade even further), while Mulvey probably slots in at the end of the rotation as soon as late '07.

I hope the Mets don't do this, as I don't think they should be dealing young chips for 40-year-old pitchers right now, but this seems like roughly equal value. Might have to bump Mulvey up to Pelfrey or Humber, due to Milledge's injury. If he resumes playing at his previous level, however, this is a moot point.
   62. Chris Dial Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:43 PM (#2416747)
Andruw wouldn't be going anywhere, kiddo. He's 10-5.

He's also not getting an offer from Schuerholz, so he'd be well advised to go somewhere else.
   63. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:45 PM (#2416750)
JS isn't going to give Andruw Wells/Beltran money, certainly. No one should. Someone will. Of course, Wells and Beltran don't deserve that money either.
   64. zonk Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:56 PM (#2416758)
Since I don't like either Chipper or Smoltz - I prefer to see this continue to simmer and build with the end-result being them both looking bad.

The self-righteous ass vs. the darling pretty boy. I'm certainly making popcorn.
   65. Chris Dial Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:57 PM (#2416762)
Of course, Wells and Beltran don't deserve that money either.

Aren't Beltran/Jones just a few months apart?

Graph those guys careers, and I'll take Beltran going forward (he's also better defensively).
   66. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:03 PM (#2416768)
Aren't Beltran/Jones just a few months apart?

Yep. Why exactly do you believe that the one is supercalifrajiliciousexpealidocious and the other is fat and used up by the age of 30? Oh yeah, the laundry.
   67. AROM wants you off his lawn Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:13 PM (#2416770)
Andruw wouldn't be going anywhere, kiddo. He's 10-5.

JS was in the booth with Joe and Joe last night, and when they asked if Andruw would be shopped he mentioned the 10 & 5 thing. Andruw ain't going nowhere until the season's over.

I'm guessing the Braves would take a Milledge/Mulvey/Carp package and not look back for Smoltz.

Maybe that's fair from a talent/ future value sort of perspective, but there is no way either of these guys are getting traded.

Chipper Jones behavior that ultimately tears down civilizations

This quote deserves to be taken out of context and repeated until everyone accepts that it is true. In 1000 years History tests will ask students to explain the downfall of ancient Rome, those who respond with "Chipper Jones behavior" get an automatic A.
   68. Mike A Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:15 PM (#2416773)
I'm sure Schuerholz is just dying to trade for Milledge after he spiked his son. :P
   69. HowardMegdal Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:15 PM (#2416774)
Yep. Why exactly do you believe that the one is supercalifrajiliciousexpealidocious and the other is fat and used up by the age of 30? Oh yeah, the laundry.

Sam, defense and laundry aside, Beltran is coming off of a slump and still is at .276/.354/.456. Jones this season is at .199/.302/.380. I don't think Andruw is finished, but Chirs didn't say anything remotely close to that, as far as I can tell. I'd take the guy in better shape, better defensively and not hitting .199 going forward, too. You wouldn't? You know, leaving aside laundry?

Maybe that's fair from a talent/ future value sort of perspective, but there is no way either of these guys are getting traded.

I agree 100 percent. Just idly speculating on what would be a fair talent match.
   70. dlf Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:20 PM (#2416777)
Can anyone remember the details of Terry Pendleton walking off the field and yelling at a Braves pitcher and other players (coahces?) in the early 1990s when he felt his teamates weren't properly retaliating for a HBP?
   71. Sam M. Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:20 PM (#2416778)
In 1000 years History tests will ask students to explain the downfall of ancient Rome, those who respond with "Chipper Jones behavior" get an automatic A.

No, it still needs some work. First, we need to tease out what "Chipper Jones behavior" we're talking about. I think it refers to repeatedly bashing the Mets in ridiculous ways (see also Burrell, Pat). Thus, in 1000 years, people will assume beating the Mets is synonymous with causing the downfall of ancient Rome. Rome fell because the Mets lost. Voila.
   72. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:22 PM (#2416781)
Beltran is coming off of a slump and still is at .276/.354/.456. Jones this season is at .199/.302/.380. I don't think Andruw is finished, but Chirs didn't say anything remotely close to that, as far as I can tell. I'd take the guy in better shape, better defensively and not hitting .199 going forward, too. You wouldn't? You know, leaving aside laundry?

Depends on how much the slumping one costs. I wouldn't pay $17 mil for either of them. At $12-13 I'd flip a coin and probably let the laundry decide. Chris' point was that Andruw is done. His comment about the age was a dig at an article I wrote three years ago. Sure Andruw is slumping and will have terrible overall numbers this year, but I don't think he's that much less of a player than Beltran any more today than he was last week, last year or in 2000. Chris is reading his laundry preference into his analysis.
   73. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:24 PM (#2416786)
Can anyone remember the details of Terry Pendleton walking off the field and yelling at a Braves pitcher and other players (coahces?) in the early 1990s when he felt his teamates weren't properly retaliating for a HBP?

In Cincinatti. Deion Sanders had been plunked and Pendleton walked off the field when there was no retaliation.
   74. HowardMegdal Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:28 PM (#2416795)
Depends on how much the slumping one costs. I wouldn't pay $17 mil for either of them. At $12-13 I'd flip a coin and probably let the laundry decide.

I think you pay a premium for in-prime players at premium positions, which is why the Beltran contract is, to my mind, a good one. As for the coin flip, we'll agree to disagree. There are very discouraging signs. It's not as if I'd be excited about the long-term prospects of a Mets hitter at .199 in late June, either.

Chris' point was that Andruw is done.

Again Sam, where does he say something remotely close to this?
   75. AROM wants you off his lawn Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:29 PM (#2416796)
Thus, in 1000 years, people will assume beating the Mets is synonymous with causing the downfall of ancient Rome.

But will Mets fans in 1000 years really care when Julio Franco will be only one game away from breaking another alltime record?
   76. Biscuit_pants Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:31 PM (#2416799)
In 1000 years History tests will ask students to explain the downfall of ancient Rome, those who respond with "Chipper Jones behavior" get an automatic A.
If you answer Pepsi you get partial credit
   77. CrosbyBird Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:37 PM (#2416802)
I wouldn't pay $17 mil for either of them. At $12-13 I'd flip a coin and probably let the laundry decide.

Looking at the Matthews and Pierre contracts, I think $17M is a pretty good price. If Andruw had just an average Andruw season, I'd expect him to command $20M per over 5+ years easily.

I don't know why you'd flip a coin, considering Andruw's best season isn't as good as Beltran's, and Andruw's slump season in 2007 is worse than Beltran's 2005. Ignoring park. If Andruw is even still better defensively, it's still close, and Beltran provides better value on the bases. For the same price, I would take Beltran, acknowledging that there's a potential health issue with him that isn't so much a concern with Andruw.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Andruw is done, and I don't think he's not a great player. He definitely takes too much of a knock because of what he did at 23 and the weight of expecations. Wright could be in a similar position; if he puts up a string of 2006-quality seasons, many fans will say he's overrated.
   78. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:42 PM (#2416811)
Yes, but you forget that I absolutely detest Carlos Beltran (and it has nothing to do with the Mets.) So that has to weigh into things.
   79. HowardMegdal Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:53 PM (#2416828)
Yes, but you forget that I absolutely detest Carlos Beltran (and it has nothing to do with the Mets.) So that has to weigh into things.

In that case, you'd pretty much have to go with Jones.
   80. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:57 PM (#2416831)
Well, I wouldn't go with either one of them actually. Given the current Braves roster and $14 million to spend this winter I would move Jeff Francoeur to CF and buy me a nice, shiny Adam Dunn.
   81. Corn On Ty Cobb Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:58 PM (#2416832)
and Andruw's slump season in 2007 is worse than Beltran's 2005. Ignoring park.

Of course you're under the faulty pretense that Andruw is going to post an 83 OPS+ all year. He won't. In fact, I think it's a good bet he'll finish the year out somewhere in the neighborhood of Beltran's 95 OPS+ in 05.
   82. HowardMegdal Posted: June 25, 2007 at 03:02 PM (#2416836)
Of course you're under the faulty pretense that Andruw is going to post an 83 OPS+ all year. He won't. In fact, I think it's a good bet he'll finish the year out somewhere in the neighborhood of Beltran's 95 OPS+ in 05.

Good news! Yuri Geller is on the premises!

Jones' OPS by month: .936, .629, .460. Based on this trend, I think it's a good bet Jones' September OPS will be around -.400.

I think Jones is a better offensive player than he has been so far. But how is it a faulty pretense, to use your phrase, that he will post an 83 OPS+ this year, and will likely raise his game all the way to 95 OPS+? He's been regressing, not progressing.

In other words- even Jones' half-season represents a struggle well beyond anything Beltran has gone through since his injury-plagued age-23 season. With a guy who doesn't do a great job keeping himself in shape, who is playing for a contract, this doesn't raise a huge red flag for you? You'd still take him over Beltran, all things being equal? I just don't see it.
   83. RB in NYC (Now with a Training Schedule!) Posted: June 25, 2007 at 03:20 PM (#2416852)
Jones' OPS by month: .936, .629, .460. Based on this trend, I think it's a good bet Jones' September OPS will be around -.400.
I would call BS, but given Craig Biggio is in the process of posting an OPS of -.400 I have to confess that it is, in fact, possible.
   84. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 03:34 PM (#2416862)
But how is it a faulty pretense, to use your phrase, that he will post an 83 OPS+ this year, and will likely raise his game all the way to 95 OPS+? He's been regressing, not progressing.

Well, we have a sample somewhat larger than 3 months on which to predict Andruw's performance, don't we? In fact, we have an 11 year sample of Andruw posting something between 115 and 135 OPS+. Now, we can randomly assume that overnight a player 30 years old and, despite what you may have read from Chris Dial or Terrence Moore, is _not_ terribly out of shape, has regressed from a 125 to 80-something or less if you're honestly calling his monthly slide a "regression" worthy of note, OR we can assume that Andruw will post something akin to his 11-year career numbers - say 120, and average that out with his current half-season performance and arrive somewhere aroun da 95 or so.

Which do you think is more reasonable?
   85. Chris Dial Posted: June 25, 2007 at 03:44 PM (#2416873)
Which do you think is more reasonable?

Well, he doesn't post "120-ish".

He posts 115 "ish". And he's more likely to perform like he's been performing than his peak.

Action?
   86. Corn On Ty Cobb Posted: June 25, 2007 at 03:44 PM (#2416874)
But how is it a faulty pretense, to use your phrase, that he will post an 83 OPS+ this year, and will likely raise his game all the way to 95 OPS+? He's been regressing, not progressing.

"All the way" to a 95 would constitute a gain of whopping 60-70 OPS points. Call me crazy but I think that's extremely possible, if not likely.

I never said I'd take Jones over Beltran. They're very similar players. 78 games doesn't wipe out over 10+ years of data. I'm with Sam in that I probably wouldn't pay $17 mil for either. Obviously I have a natural fandom bias toward Andruw, so of the two that's who I'd probably pick. I guess if you're under the impression that 78 games is worthy enough to deem Andruw Jones done at age 30, then I guess Beltran is a no-brainer.
   87. AROM wants you off his lawn Posted: June 25, 2007 at 03:47 PM (#2416877)
Moments like this I'm just glad my team decided to go with Gary Matthews Jr.
   88. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:04 PM (#2416882)
Well, he doesn't post "120-ish". He posts 115 "ish".

1996 19 79
1997 20 93
1998 21 114
1999 22 118
2000 23 126
2001 24 96
2002 25 129
2003 26 121
2004 27 113
2005 28 133
2006 29 129

MMMMM, facts.

And he's more likely to perform like he's been performing than his peak.

His peak is 133. In the last five years he's posted a 129 or higher three times. But hey, if you say he's "115 ish" then who am I or the actual factual record to argue?
   89. Softball-Playing Human Refuses to Be Walked Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:10 PM (#2416886)
I wonder how much of this is the contract issue. Is Jones trying so hard to win a new contract that he's thrown himself mentally out of whack, or did he just hit a wall? I wonder, because Travis Hafner is going through something of the same problem, abet in a much less extreme fashion.
   90. More Indecisive than Lonnie Smith on 2nd... Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:10 PM (#2416887)
Beltran >> Jones. As upset as I am to admit it.

Jones has quietly been requesting days off for his knees all season. He's hurting. And the extra 12kg he's carrying around (strip club junkie, anyone?) aren't helping. So while I do agree that he's likely to return to ~95 OPS+ this year (especially because he's still drawing walks at a decent rate and his batspeed is alright), I wouldn't invest a plug nickel in him if I'm the Braves. The head of the rotation is 40, the closer is 37(?), the best hitter plays 110 games per year, and they might have the worst 1B production in baseball. Rebuild--it enters the Braves vocabulary again soon.
   91. CrosbyBird Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:19 PM (#2416892)
Yes, but you forget that I absolutely detest Carlos Beltran (and it has nothing to do with the Mets.) So that has to weigh into things.

Wow. What did he ever do to you?

Of course you're under the faulty pretense that Andruw is going to post an 83 OPS+ all year. He won't. In fact, I think it's a good bet he'll finish the year out somewhere in the neighborhood of Beltran's 95 OPS+ in 05.

That is, if he doesn't smash headfirst into his teammate at some point during the season.
   92. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder. Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:19 PM (#2416894)
Jeff K. Posted: June 24, 2007 at 11:47 AM (#2415044)
You know, not every ####### thread has to be another Red Sox/Yankees #########. Take it to your respective team blogs. The rest of us are sick and tired of it.


Let me translate this for everybody:

18.5 games back.
   93. Chris Dial Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:33 PM (#2416906)
But hey, if you say he's "115 ish" then who am I or the actual factual record to argue?

What is his career OPS+, where *you* said we have 11+ years to draw from? 116.

the factual record disagrees with you.
   94. Tim Lincecum doesn't Wang Chung tonite (GGC) Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:34 PM (#2416907)
I did find post #22 ironic though. and post #26 childish. well done red sox. spent $150 million and after ages, you might even win a division. reminds me why i can't stand those red sox ####### after 2004


Why the hell do people like to tar Red Sox fans with the same brush? Have I ever acted like a *&^# about the Red Sox? Well, have I? Should I renounce the team just because they finally won?????? Just because some of the fans are Massholes? Look, I've been following them for 30 years. But you know what? I can dig people being fans of other teams. I don't dress up like it is Halloween In August in a player jersey, nor do I wear my heart on my sleeve for the most part.

It's not like we have a monopoly on aholic fans. This thread is a den of them. No, not you Stromcrow. But there are a handful of posters in this thread who that fits.

Sorry, this place seems like it's a more intelligent place than the bleachers, but not a wiser one.
   95. Shredder Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:36 PM (#2416911)
Dammit. This thread had the awesome potential to explode into a full on conflagration, and then you idiots had to start talking about baseball again. Bummer.
   96. Tim Lincecum doesn't Wang Chung tonite (GGC) Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:36 PM (#2416913)
And yes, I *have* been a dick to GMSoRP in the past and I apologize.
   97. Tim Lincecum doesn't Wang Chung tonite (GGC) Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:37 PM (#2416914)
I'm doing my part, Shredder.
   98. Chris Dial Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:43 PM (#2416923)
Andruw will struggle to get to 500 HRs, and probably ends up closer to 450.
   99. Shredder Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:45 PM (#2416925)
It's not like we have a monopoly on aholic fans. This thread is a den of them. No, not you Stromcrow. But there are a handful of posters in this thread who that fits.
You may want to stay away from here, then.
Tonight, we watch to hate. And to win, but that's secondary, especially with Weaver on the mound. F--- the Red Sox. F--- who they are, f--- what they stand for, and f--- the people who follow them. Go ask the kind folks at Gaslamp Ball what this most malevolent of red armies did to the Padres' innocent and beautiful downtown stadium. The Red Sox are a virus, and the only known inoculation is 11.5 games back and starting Miguel Cairo at first base. So tonight, and for the rest of the series, it's in our hands. Fight the good fight. Fans, outcheer your neighbor. Vendors, poison the lager. Ticketers, quarantine these soulless bastards in the upper deck. And players, perform with pride, honor, and dignity, because the world unites in the war against evil, and tonight the prayers of the many fall on your shoulders. Send these sorry sons of ####### out of town broken and defeated, or die trying. Give Curt Schilling something to whine about and a reason to doubt his faith. This is the Northwest, you pompous blowhard. God's on our side.
   100. Tim Lincecum doesn't Wang Chung tonite (GGC) Posted: June 25, 2007 at 04:49 PM (#2416930)
That's worded rather poetically compared to alot of the stuff here, Shredder.

Okay, bandwagoneers and pinkhats need their ranks thinned out. I won't debate that. But say what you will about kevin, he remembers 1967. I remember 1975 and 1978.

I'll leave and let you guys resume Braves talk.
Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

<< Back to main

Support BBTF

donate

My Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Vivid Seats is a sports ticket broker, concert ticket broker and theater ticket broker offering the best baseball tickets like Yankees tickets, Cubs tickets, and Red Sox tickets, as well as Police reunion tour tickets and Jersey Boys tickets.

We have baseball tickets, the NFL schedule, college football tickets and Cowboys tickets. We have NBA tickets like Celtics tickets and Lakers tickets. Plus, buy concert tickets, Patriots tickets and Colts tickets. Also check out our MLB baseball schedule

Baseball Bats

Concerts Theatre NFL Angels Dodgers MLB Celtics Theater NBA Tickets Venues NHL Lakers Tickets NFL Yankees NHL Phillies NBA Wicked Marlins MLB Concerts Cubs Mets Red Sox Wicked WWE Red Sox Mets Yankees Dodgers

Major League Baseball: All Star Game, New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox, LA Angels, Washington Nationals, Chicago White Sox, and the Chicago Cubs.

Find terrific deals on Yankees tickets for the new home, Cubs tickets for classic Wrigley, or Red Sox tickets for Fenway with OnlineSeats. We have seats for every baseball game, including Dodgers tickets.

Page rendered in 0.8555 seconds
81 querie(s) executed