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If he has a point (good or otherwise), the way to make it is to keep it within the team, not talk to the press about it. I don't know if calling out your teammate to the media on an issue like this makes you a self-righteous ass, but it definitely makes you a piss-poor teammate. And how in the world does Smoltz know whether Chipper Jones would be hurting or helping the team by playing, or whether he is capable of taking the field, or whether sitting for a couple of days now increases his chances of playing more games later? He should STFU and pitch, and let Chipper and Cox and the trainers worry about the third baseman.
right. i just find it funny that chipper hits the dinger in the game he's bullied into playing, whether or not John Smoltz is a self-righteous ass
This has to got to be hard, though. We've all worked with someone we strongly dislike. Now imagine that you work side-by-side with that person for 15 years. And every day, 5 or 6 people, and up to a couple hundred (World Series) ask your opinion on things. Forget letting something slip during those 15 years, imagine that you can see the end of your employment coming. How difficult would it be to not finally say something?
Yeah, I bet he makes rash judgments about the kind of person somebody is based on, say, their religion! What a douche!
his kid's already properly named.
I hate it when mom and dad fight (sniff).
Other teams have way worse than this kind of thing pop up every so often, but the Braves have been mostly strife-free for the past, hell, 20 years. The last time I saw Brave-on-Brave hostility like this was in early 1988 when Ozzie Virgil and some starter got into an all-out-shouting match on the pitcher's mound in Dodger Stadium towards the end of their season-opening losing streak. Thank god Glen Hubbard was there or else punches would have been thrown. Of course, this being the 1988 Braves, everyone would have missed.
Are you crazy?! They're both DEAD now!
Yeah, but Ruth never publicly criticized Gehrig for sitting it out when he could have played.
Oh look, you make a point about Smoltz, a known religious bigot, but really you're "ironically" making a point about my intolerance of his "religious freedom" or something. How clever. You're a clever monkey, you are. I'm sure put in my place. I'm so sad for having made Little Baby Jesus cry!
John Smoltz is still a self-righteous ass. Chipper should knock up Smoltz wife just to say he did.
Interesting question coming from the biggest douche bag on the board.
I agree, can't we just focus on the Braves' implosion centered on their best pitcher and best position player who've each been with the team their whole careers?
10.5 games behind.
Yeah, only Yankee fans wish you'd die in a grease fire, and they've only just now come to the realization, based on their team's relative standing in the division.
Smoltz being a religious bigot is neither here nor there. He is just ####### loudmouth. If he started a blog, there would be no difference between him and Schilling. I side with Chipper here. There was just no call for this at this point of time.
I did find post #22 ironic though. and post #26 childish. well done red sox. spent $150 million and after ages, you might even win a division. reminds me why i can't stand those red sox ####### after 2004
Do it on the day they tear the place down.
As for Smoltz and Jones, I imagine they are both frustrated that the Braves' best days are behind them. They should duke it out, but Chipper would likely hurt himself even thinking about throwing a punch.
They should each have to present the other when they are inducted in Cooperstown.
IIRC, that was immediately follolwing a pop up that maybe Gerald Perry, Oberksmell,and Virgil all converged on then let drop? Just laughable. Then to argue and point fingers at one another. Just laughable. The essence of a losing team.
Kevin, I post when and where I feel like it. Why would you have a problem with that?
That is all.
I'm sure he was waiting with this comment from the start. It took him 3 comments saying the same thing about Smoltz before somebody bit. Lesson to primates: Do not feed the troll and it might eventually go away.
I think this deserves a "Subtle Primey".
I think you're right. It's actually a fond memory for me. I was 14, my family had just moved to a new city, our new house wasn't ready yet so we were living in a hotel, I had no friends, and I had a broken ankle from a mishap during my going away party from my old city the week before. It's about as low as a 14 year-old can get. All I had was the Braves on TV, and the only reason they weren't the worst thing in baseball that month was because the Orioles were losing more. When Virgil and whoever started jawing at each other it (or maybe what Skip was saying about it) made me laugh out loud. Things improved right after that.
Yes sir, the Bravos are putting their best foot forward!
This is why Selig instituted interleague play - to get the difficult posters more familiar with each other and create new rivalries.
On the other hand, his finger-pointing on Saturday night about how it was an issue because of what Chipper said, not because of what he said -- that's not helpful, to me. He might be right, but you don't say so, especially when you are. In that sense, it's like arguing with your wife -- the last thing you want to do is hammer home the fact that you were right.
I repeat myself re: Smoltz being a self-righteous ass because John Smoltz is, in point of fact, a self-righteous ass. He's also a sanctimonious prick. This is not news to anyone who follows the Braves with any regularity.
I realize you thought this was some kind of clever rejoinder, but I'm afraid you have me confused with someone else; I've been too busy telling your ringleader to slit his own wrists to ever call for civility.
Just out of curiosity, I checked the figures on Kevin and Sam and myself for number of posts, which only goes back to the '05 re-vamping.
Sam: 1087
Me: 1095
Kevin: 22,257
An interesting justaposition.
As for Smoltz, I forgive him his priggery, like I forgive Chipper his philandering and Bonds his injecting and Babe his overindulgences in women, liquor and food, and even Ty Cobb his racism. They have all given me much pleasure in my life, and are, after all, like myself and Kevin and Sam, all-too-human.
Their plus side far outweighs their minuses in my book. Hopefully, the same can be said for Sam and Kev and me by the people who actually know us.
Is it just that he's a committed Christian and proud of it? I'm out of the loop on a lot of this stuff, and maybe Smoltz has said some stupid stuff, but given BBTF's well-known bigotry towards traditional Christianity I'm kind of skeptical that he's really guilty of "priggery" or of being a "self-righteous ass," at least as most normal people would describe those terms.
Please feel to enlighten me with relevant quotes and links, though.
Or calling others bigots and referring to oneself as "normal people".
Doesn't the Good Book say something about pride goeth before the fall? He who is without sin casting the first stone? Picking the mote out of one's own eye before removing it from another's?
Judge not lest ye be judged?
Or simply 'practice what you preach', which was Chipper's rejoinder?
Jones extensively explained his thinking. It's understandable why he would be sensitive considering how many games he misses with injury.
Smoltz stated it was over and done with.
Please do note that I'm a commited agnostic/atheist myself. But as such, in the United States of America, I have the good sense to realize that statistically speaking, I am not among the majority, and hence am not qualified to consider myself a "normal person," at least insofar as that one issue goes.
Moreover, even though I don't belong to the "normative" viewpoint, I can still recognize the massive societal good that religious belief engenders in a populace. Let's face it: libertine values are all well and good from the viewpoint of personal maximization of pleasure, but there's a serious "tragedy of the commons" zero-sum effect involved in that sort of "Chipper Jones" behavior that ultimately tears down civilizations given free reign (see: Ancient Rome, modern Europe). So if John Smoltz (or Curt Schilling) wants to indulge in public moral "priggery," not only will I refrain from criticizing them (despite having a completely different personal belief system), I applaud them as contributing to the greater health of the American public.
Horseshit. Provide some sort of argument to back this fantasy up.
s/
As long as you can still recognize the massive societal evil that religious belief engenders in a populace.
Umm, well the "Chipper Jones" part was uncalled-for (and frankly inaccurate) snark, but if you seriously doubt the fact that traditional "family values," promote national/societal health while constraining personal liberty in certain ways, then we're on different planets. That's as uncontroversial an anthropological observation as exists in the field; it's why mankind developed such societal mores (and also why "religion" has evolved into an enforcer of behaviors that often benefit the group more than the individual). Again, I speak as a neutral observer; I have no brief for fundamentalists, or even religion of any sort.
54 - RTG:
Oh sure, if by that you're talking about the potential for bigotry, ignorance, magical thinking, anti-intellectualism, etc.
If it is such an uncontroversial observation then you shouldn't have any trouble finding some citation or study to back it up. Once you do that we can discuss your statement to the effect that the Roman Empire and "modern Europe" are somehow failed or failing because of a failure of such treacly talking points as "family values."
s/
Smoltz would look nice at the top of the rotation, though.
If only these two got along, allowing the Mets to acquire both...
Yeah, I didn't think so.
Was this an attempt at parody? Otherwise, that doesn't mean what you think it means. I think you were going for negative externalities, not tragedy of the commons (which is a kind of negative externality, but not applicable to what you brought up). Who knows, maybe I'm way off on that - I'm no economist - but that's not what I understand that phrase to mean.
BTW, I'm Christian and won't touch any of this tired old persecution/martyr thing, except to say that Smoltz certainly says things a self-righteous ass would say. For that matter, so does Sam Hutcheson.
I was joking about trading for either of these guys, but are you really under the impression that it would take dealing the 24-year-old Wright for either 35-year-old Chipper or 40-year-old Smoltz?
Howie, yes, if the Atlanta Braves were going to deal one of their franchise superstars intra-division then the receiving team would have to send some serious talent back to Atlanta. The Braves are not in a Millwood-for-Estrada situation and unless they get there again you'd have to give talent to get talent.
As this trade would never happen, even if both guys were not 10-5ers, it's all moot.
Andruw would be if he didn't suck.
It wouldn't take a Wright package, though, I would guess. I'm guessing the Braves would take a Milledge/Mulvey/Carp package and not look back for Smoltz. Milledge could take over for Jones in CF in '08, Carp is a fine option at 1B (and frees up Salty for a pitching trade even further), while Mulvey probably slots in at the end of the rotation as soon as late '07.
I hope the Mets don't do this, as I don't think they should be dealing young chips for 40-year-old pitchers right now, but this seems like roughly equal value. Might have to bump Mulvey up to Pelfrey or Humber, due to Milledge's injury. If he resumes playing at his previous level, however, this is a moot point.
He's also not getting an offer from Schuerholz, so he'd be well advised to go somewhere else.
The self-righteous ass vs. the darling pretty boy. I'm certainly making popcorn.
Aren't Beltran/Jones just a few months apart?
Graph those guys careers, and I'll take Beltran going forward (he's also better defensively).
Yep. Why exactly do you believe that the one is supercalifrajiliciousexpealidocious and the other is fat and used up by the age of 30? Oh yeah, the laundry.
JS was in the booth with Joe and Joe last night, and when they asked if Andruw would be shopped he mentioned the 10 & 5 thing. Andruw ain't going nowhere until the season's over.
I'm guessing the Braves would take a Milledge/Mulvey/Carp package and not look back for Smoltz.
Maybe that's fair from a talent/ future value sort of perspective, but there is no way either of these guys are getting traded.
Chipper Jones behavior that ultimately tears down civilizations
This quote deserves to be taken out of context and repeated until everyone accepts that it is true. In 1000 years History tests will ask students to explain the downfall of ancient Rome, those who respond with "Chipper Jones behavior" get an automatic A.
Sam, defense and laundry aside, Beltran is coming off of a slump and still is at .276/.354/.456. Jones this season is at .199/.302/.380. I don't think Andruw is finished, but Chirs didn't say anything remotely close to that, as far as I can tell. I'd take the guy in better shape, better defensively and not hitting .199 going forward, too. You wouldn't? You know, leaving aside laundry?
Maybe that's fair from a talent/ future value sort of perspective, but there is no way either of these guys are getting traded.
I agree 100 percent. Just idly speculating on what would be a fair talent match.
No, it still needs some work. First, we need to tease out what "Chipper Jones behavior" we're talking about. I think it refers to repeatedly bashing the Mets in ridiculous ways (see also Burrell, Pat). Thus, in 1000 years, people will assume beating the Mets is synonymous with causing the downfall of ancient Rome. Rome fell because the Mets lost. Voila.
Depends on how much the slumping one costs. I wouldn't pay $17 mil for either of them. At $12-13 I'd flip a coin and probably let the laundry decide. Chris' point was that Andruw is done. His comment about the age was a dig at an article I wrote three years ago. Sure Andruw is slumping and will have terrible overall numbers this year, but I don't think he's that much less of a player than Beltran any more today than he was last week, last year or in 2000. Chris is reading his laundry preference into his analysis.
In Cincinatti. Deion Sanders had been plunked and Pendleton walked off the field when there was no retaliation.
I think you pay a premium for in-prime players at premium positions, which is why the Beltran contract is, to my mind, a good one. As for the coin flip, we'll agree to disagree. There are very discouraging signs. It's not as if I'd be excited about the long-term prospects of a Mets hitter at .199 in late June, either.
Chris' point was that Andruw is done.
Again Sam, where does he say something remotely close to this?
But will Mets fans in 1000 years really care when Julio Franco will be only one game away from breaking another alltime record?
Looking at the Matthews and Pierre contracts, I think $17M is a pretty good price. If Andruw had just an average Andruw season, I'd expect him to command $20M per over 5+ years easily.
I don't know why you'd flip a coin, considering Andruw's best season isn't as good as Beltran's, and Andruw's slump season in 2007 is worse than Beltran's 2005. Ignoring park. If Andruw is even still better defensively, it's still close, and Beltran provides better value on the bases. For the same price, I would take Beltran, acknowledging that there's a potential health issue with him that isn't so much a concern with Andruw.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think Andruw is done, and I don't think he's not a great player. He definitely takes too much of a knock because of what he did at 23 and the weight of expecations. Wright could be in a similar position; if he puts up a string of 2006-quality seasons, many fans will say he's overrated.
In that case, you'd pretty much have to go with Jones.
Of course you're under the faulty pretense that Andruw is going to post an 83 OPS+ all year. He won't. In fact, I think it's a good bet he'll finish the year out somewhere in the neighborhood of Beltran's 95 OPS+ in 05.
Good news! Yuri Geller is on the premises!
Jones' OPS by month: .936, .629, .460. Based on this trend, I think it's a good bet Jones' September OPS will be around -.400.
I think Jones is a better offensive player than he has been so far. But how is it a faulty pretense, to use your phrase, that he will post an 83 OPS+ this year, and will likely raise his game all the way to 95 OPS+? He's been regressing, not progressing.
In other words- even Jones' half-season represents a struggle well beyond anything Beltran has gone through since his injury-plagued age-23 season. With a guy who doesn't do a great job keeping himself in shape, who is playing for a contract, this doesn't raise a huge red flag for you? You'd still take him over Beltran, all things being equal? I just don't see it.
Well, we have a sample somewhat larger than 3 months on which to predict Andruw's performance, don't we? In fact, we have an 11 year sample of Andruw posting something between 115 and 135 OPS+. Now, we can randomly assume that overnight a player 30 years old and, despite what you may have read from Chris Dial or Terrence Moore, is _not_ terribly out of shape, has regressed from a 125 to 80-something or less if you're honestly calling his monthly slide a "regression" worthy of note, OR we can assume that Andruw will post something akin to his 11-year career numbers - say 120, and average that out with his current half-season performance and arrive somewhere aroun da 95 or so.
Which do you think is more reasonable?
Well, he doesn't post "120-ish".
He posts 115 "ish". And he's more likely to perform like he's been performing than his peak.
Action?
"All the way" to a 95 would constitute a gain of whopping 60-70 OPS points. Call me crazy but I think that's extremely possible, if not likely.
I never said I'd take Jones over Beltran. They're very similar players. 78 games doesn't wipe out over 10+ years of data. I'm with Sam in that I probably wouldn't pay $17 mil for either. Obviously I have a natural fandom bias toward Andruw, so of the two that's who I'd probably pick. I guess if you're under the impression that 78 games is worthy enough to deem Andruw Jones done at age 30, then I guess Beltran is a no-brainer.
1996 19 79
1997 20 93
1998 21 114
1999 22 118
2000 23 126
2001 24 96
2002 25 129
2003 26 121
2004 27 113
2005 28 133
2006 29 129
MMMMM, facts.
And he's more likely to perform like he's been performing than his peak.
His peak is 133. In the last five years he's posted a 129 or higher three times. But hey, if you say he's "115 ish" then who am I or the actual factual record to argue?
Jones has quietly been requesting days off for his knees all season. He's hurting. And the extra 12kg he's carrying around (strip club junkie, anyone?) aren't helping. So while I do agree that he's likely to return to ~95 OPS+ this year (especially because he's still drawing walks at a decent rate and his batspeed is alright), I wouldn't invest a plug nickel in him if I'm the Braves. The head of the rotation is 40, the closer is 37(?), the best hitter plays 110 games per year, and they might have the worst 1B production in baseball. Rebuild--it enters the Braves vocabulary again soon.
Wow. What did he ever do to you?
Of course you're under the faulty pretense that Andruw is going to post an 83 OPS+ all year. He won't. In fact, I think it's a good bet he'll finish the year out somewhere in the neighborhood of Beltran's 95 OPS+ in 05.
That is, if he doesn't smash headfirst into his teammate at some point during the season.
Let me translate this for everybody:
18.5 games back.
What is his career OPS+, where *you* said we have 11+ years to draw from? 116.
the factual record disagrees with you.
Why the hell do people like to tar Red Sox fans with the same brush? Have I ever acted like a *&^# about the Red Sox? Well, have I? Should I renounce the team just because they finally won?????? Just because some of the fans are Massholes? Look, I've been following them for 30 years. But you know what? I can dig people being fans of other teams. I don't dress up like it is Halloween In August in a player jersey, nor do I wear my heart on my sleeve for the most part.
It's not like we have a monopoly on aholic fans. This thread is a den of them. No, not you Stromcrow. But there are a handful of posters in this thread who that fits.
Sorry, this place seems like it's a more intelligent place than the bleachers, but not a wiser one.
Okay, bandwagoneers and pinkhats need their ranks thinned out. I won't debate that. But say what you will about kevin, he remembers 1967. I remember 1975 and 1978.
I'll leave and let you guys resume Braves talk.
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