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Baseball Primer Newsblog — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand Tuesday, November 24, 2009BBWAA: NL MVP: It’s Unanimous: Cardinals’ Albert Pujols Wins Again
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My BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot TopicsNewsblog: Mets' Citi Field to become more homer-friendly next season; center-field wall gets chopped to 8 feet (15 - 4:25pm, Feb 09) Last: dejarouehg Newsblog: Sam Hutcheson's Top 11 Sabrenerd Baseball Dork's* Basements (8 - 4:24pm, Feb 09) Last: Sam Hutcheson (perhaps some sort of ninja) Newsblog: Former Lotte Giants catcher dies (after 10 years in a coma after collapsing during a game) (5 - 4:23pm, Feb 09) Last: jolietconvict Newsblog: freep: Johnny Damon likes Yzerman, Tigers (31 - 4:21pm, Feb 09) Last: Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Marching Through Georgia Newsblog: FanGraphs: Carruth: Fastball Losses (9 - 4:21pm, Feb 09) Last: Los Angeles Softballer of Anaheim Newsblog: Hardball Talk: Gleeman: Lenny Dykstra is back with some more can't miss investment advice
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Agreed!!!!
One SF writer right when the season ended said he'd vote Affeldt 10th. Guess he really did. It's no worse than voting Street 9th and Hawpe 10th, as some Denver writer probably did.
Zimmerman is way too low!!
2008: 663 PAs, .285/.335/.553, 14 SB, 106 RBIs. Finishes 3rd in the MVP vote.
2009: 708 PAs, .320/.386/.551, 20 SB, 114 RBIs. Only NL player to have 200 hits. But the Brewers' pitching staff imploded, so he finishes 11th.
Well, to be fair, only Giants, Cardinals, and Phillies win NL MVPs this decade. Everyone knows that.
Well, Utley finished behind Howard. Again. But this is more of a minor irritation, at least until Utley is on the Hall of Fame ballot and Buster Olney whines about how he never finished in the top 5 of an MVP vote.
It wasn't Ringolsby, fwiw. The only Rockies player he voted for was Tulo (one of Tulo's 3 second-place votes).
I wonder who the other Denver voter was. I think Patrick Saunders of the Post had a vote in the Cy Young.
But not a lone vote for Javier Vazquez.
Agreed.
And Ryan Howard is hilariously overrated.
No, the explanation is simple. Each year Chase Utley acquires the list of NL MVP voters from the BBWAA. He then proceeds to drive to each of their homes and punch them in the face, one by one.
So you're saying that there are at least 18 masochists with an MVP ballot.
BBWAA incompetence makes for much better threads.
There are far more than 18. The rest were disappointed that Chase only punched them once.
Perhaps not. I see some irony here, insofar as Fielder's father was sort of Howard's predecessor in the "hilariously overrated homer-hitting first baseman who fares way better in the MVP voting than his play justifies" genre. Cecil never won an MVP, but he finished second a couple times.
In fairness, that competition was mighty tough.
And Fielder ####### long and loud about those finishes, while pointing out his league leading totals in HRs and RBI.
He probably would have won if he wasn't going up against Rickey Henderson's 1990 or Cal Ripken's 1991. Those were consensus future hall-of-famers having career years, and the vote was still pretty close. A lot of voters gave Fielder a lot of credit for those RBIs.
Mets: 4 pennants, 0 MVPs
Yankees: 11 pennants, 4 MVPs
Red Sox: 4 pennants, 5 MVPs
I would assume a strong correlation in these numbers, but perhaps not.
No Met deserved a vote this year.
The only Met who CLEARLY should have been MVP was Gooden in 1985, his failure to win can be chalked up to anti-pitcher bias.
Strawberry could have won in 1988, and he might have had KH not actively campaigned against him.
Other than that, there obviously is no pro NY bias, and the claims that opne exists are simp;y getting tiresome
Not saying he was right, but that was quite the clever two-step the BBWAA pulled.
And yet he easily beat Frank Thomas in the (1991) voting, despite the fact that Thomas had a much better season and the White Sox won more games than the Tigers did.
Ditto for 1991.
Interesting coinage. So would a result that was as bad as the 1987 NL Cy Young vote be positively Bedrosianian?
So are Cecil and Prince the second father/son combo in which both pere and fils tallied at least two top-five MVP finishes? Bobby Bonds had a third- and a fourth-place finish, so obviously the Bondses are in. Felipe & Moises almost make it; Moises had two third-place finishes, while Felipe had a fifth-place finish, but his next best was 10th. Ken Griffey, Sr's best finish was 8th.
And Reggie was probably hurt by vote splitting, being one of several candidates on the A's--he finished 4th in the league, but 3rd on his own team (after Rudi and Bando).
Must be inside-clubhouse stuff... Maybe Affeldt is Lincecum's source?
Fielder also said something along the lines that if anyone put up the numbers he did (anyone but him) they'd win every year- Bill James dissected that one pretty good - among other things he noted was that Aaron replicated Fielder's 1991 HR/RBI numbers literally every year- with a batting average 50 points higher... and he wasn't winning MVPs those years.
Burroughs wasn't even the worst 1974 MVP pick, granted he was a slug, but he was 2nd in runs created to [the far more valuable] Rod Carew, and 3rd in OPS+ (closely behind Reggie and Dick Allen- who had 140 less PAs)
Garvey was 9th in RC in the NL, 28 behind the leader, and 14th in OPS+, the MVP should have been Schmidt or Joe Morgan...
I think one of the reasons Utley gets overlooked is because he's imploded in the second half.
OPS by half (Pre/Post ASG)
2009 1.003/.790
2008 .954/.855
This "proves he isn't a clutch player".
He was more consistent in '05 and '06, but he wasn't on the radar of a lot of MSM writers then.
(I don't agree with any of this reasoning, but what other reason could there be?)
The Affeldt voter
Admittedly, I was really around for more of the Yankee/Angel Reggie, but I always thought he was pretty horrendous defensively. I think Jackson himself once said the only way he'd get a gold glove was with a can of spraypaint.
Was that not always the case?
Yes, Billy made Reggie get older and slower...
That silly HBO movie on the 1977 Yankees had Billy Martin privately pouting that the Yankees had signed a career .260 hitter...
Billy publicly complained about Reggie's batting average, but my sense was that he did that to tick off George & Reggie- he wasn't someone who evaluated players solely by batting average (though such baseball people did indeed exist), he was quite well aware that the ability to hit for power and to get on base was valuable irrespective of batting average...
Too many Reggie Bars...
Ditto for 1991.
But if Cecil had had his 1990 season in 1991, he'd have had a pretty good case.
AO
Garvey: .312/.342/.469, 21 HR, 111 RBI, 95 R
Bench: .280/.363/.507, 33 HR, 129 RBI, 108 R
I realize the Dodgers won the division. But how does the good defensive first baseman beat the good defensive catcher when the first baseman is clearly inferior as a hitter?
And yes, Morgan should have won.
They were tired of voting for Bench?
That's all I got.
True dat. He ran very well, and had a howitzer.
When he declined defensively, it was rather early (right around the age of 30), and it wasn't gradual, it was all of a sudden. Not only did he lose his speed, he also, oddly, lost most of his throwing ability.
[Someone in this thread needs to mention this. Also, a 3d for Helton?]
The last four years Utley has finished 7th,8th,14th,8th. I would guess he was easily top 5, more than likely top 3 in every one of those years.
He's currently 5th all-time in MVP shares. He could decline pretty sharply from here and still have a good chance to move into the second spot before he's done.
Probably depends on how much of a timeliner you are. I have a hard time presuming that the pre-war, pre-integration guys are the best just because of their numbers, but that is a long and involved discussion.
The 3 you mentioned, plus Wagner, Foxx, and Frank Robinson. All have similar (or better) peaks to Albert and longer careers. He could end up there, but not yet.
It was nice to see some down-ballot love for Helton, but he was pretty obviously not the third-best player in the league.
Good to see Tulowitzki in the Top Five, though. He really does have a good case for third-best player in the league.
Unless you believe in a time line, Hornsby is always going to win this. Through Albert's age 29 season, he has an OPS+ of 172. At the same age, Hornsby was over 180 (B-Ref won't calculate that page for some reason), Aaron was 157 (how consistent is that? His career was 155!) and Mays was 158 (ditto: career 156).
Edit: Foxx was 167, Wagner 150.
Here is my thought on this. I will be brief, because I am on shaky ground and don't want to defend this too much.
My impression is that Jackson was the most emotionally-sensitive star player of my lifetime. When he got to NY, Martin hated him and immediately began trying to beat him down mentally. Jackson desparately wanted Martin to like him, so much that he began to believe everything Martin said about him. Martin DH'd him long before he deserved it, and soon enough he did deserve it.
This is false. Ripken's 1991 is quite possibly the best individual season of the 1990's.
Edit: 182 not 181.
Ouch, I'm embarrassed that I forgot about the Big Hurt. He is my favorite non-Yankee player ever, and yeah, he also belongs in this discussion.
I would take Rickey's 1990. I don't think this is a tough call actually.
And Lord knows if there's anything this site hates, it's long and involved discussions about ephemeral topics. :)
I'll start: Ryan, you're wrong, and a ####### idiot!
LORD PALMERSTON!
I would take Rickey's 1990. I don't think this is a tough call actually.
Are we taking defense into account?
I'll continue. Jeff, you're wrong, and a ####### idiot, because you're trying to start an argument with the wrong Jones.
No, I intended you. Randy is American, there's a chance he's right about something. Vestigial tail-having penguin-bad-touching Canadians are always wrong.
Jesus Christ, the heat down in Texas has got to be overloading your tiny, tiny brain. You better drill a hole in the side of your head, so you can safely let some of that hot air out.
Get it straight - we don't have penguins in Canada. All the bad-touching is done with seals.
Is that some sort of regional insult of which I'm not aware, as in "Dammit, you're such a major applewhite. What the hell were you thinking?"
Right. I don't know if was the best individual season of the 1990's, but it was top 5, and there's no way Fielder's 1990 compares. They had almost the same offensive value, and you're comparing an excellent SS to a mediocre 1b. No contest.
edit: Although, the way Ryan puts it, The Major becomes a great insult.
Ripken 1991
Henderson 1990
Bonds 1993
ARod 1996
Thomas 1994
Bagwell 1994
Griffey 1997
McGwire 1998
Jeter 1999
Williams 1999
Talk about false idolatry. Dude couldn't even beat Syracuse in the Carrier Dome.
23 4 .852 2.07 31 29 1 5 1 0 213.1 160 56 49 9 37 1 313 9 0 6 835 243 0.923 6.8 0.4 1.6 13.2 8.46
Got to love the .923 whip and 313K's in only 213 innings.
And yes, the 2000 season was even better.
But he did beat Nebraska two times (back when they rarely lost), including once in Lincoln as a freshman, and that list is exactly one quarterback long, (Applewhite).
wait a minute, Applewhite didn't even play Syracuse, I guess that means he didn't beat them either.
Wasn't Peter Gardere UT's QB when they lost at 'Cuse? BTW: Gardere beat OU 4 times!
Since my name is not really Randy Jones, I should probably be the one to change handles. However, since I am American, I will be stubborn and demand that Ryan change his handle.
First of all, I said he'd have a pretty good case. I did not say that he'd deserve to win, or that he'd have gotten my hypothetical vote. But given the actual voting population, and given that Fielder did in fact finish second in both 1990 and 1991, I don't think it's impossible to believe that he might have actually beaten the guy from the last place team if he'd hit his 50 bombs in 1991 instead of 1990.
I'd also put Henderson's 1990 ahead of Ripken's 1991. He hit a lot better and stole 65 bases at an 87% success rate.
And Reggie's numbers were much reduced as DH.
Does K. Jeff have a goatee?
I believe you mean "Negative K."
I got a seal
(whatcha seal got to do with me)
I got a seal
(I'm not that slippery)
--------------
Wow, Andre Ethier finishing 6th place, Kemp finishing 10th? Ethier getting two 2nd place votes?
It's got to be the 30 HRs, because I can't see any other reason.
Josh Gibson
D'oh. I was thinking of Shea Morenz, apparently.
EDIT: Double checking...Gardere in '92 (a loss in the Dome), Morenz in '93 (tie in Austin).
And Shooty's mom.
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