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Sunday, March 16, 2008

BDD: Rouleau: The Bloggers Roundtable - Detroit Tigers

With...Ian Casselberry - Bless You Boys, Bill Ferris - Detroit Tigers Weblog and Peter Robins-Brown - Bugs & Cranks.

Question 4: Who is the best Detroit Tigers player of all time? Why?

Ian: Ty Cobb should probably be the pick when you consider what a phenomenal hitter he was (.366/.433/.512 for his career). When you look at his career numbers, it’s like he had a bad season If he hit below .350. But I guess I like a guy who can also hit the long ball (399 career home runs, for example), as well as provide outstanding defense, which gives the nod to Al Kaline for me. I’ll admit, however, that I’m influenced by having talked to people who actually saw Kaline play. If I ever mentioned a nice play that a Tiger made in the outfield - especially right field - my dad would say that I should’ve seen Al Kaline, and that’s stayed with me as long as I’ve watched the Detroit Tigers.

Peter: As always, coming up with a best of all-time list, or pick, of any sort is difficult. In this case I discount Ty Cobb and Hank Greenberg, despite their greatness, because I tend to favor players who played after the color barrier was broken. With that said, I’m going to go ahead and pick, Al Kaline. I’m too young to have seen him play, but when you look at his numbers (399 home runs in a time when home runs were especially difficult to come by), combined with his reputation as maybe the best defensive right fielder of all-time, and the way the players of his time reverentially spoke of his talents, I think it’s hard to go with anybody else.

Kaline over Cobb?...Yea, and Rare Earth Records was better than Fortune Records.

Repoz Posted: March 16, 2008 at 11:19 AM | 28 comment(s)
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1. RMc is the President of the United States Posted: March 16, 2008 at 12:50 PM (#2713652)

In this case I discount Ty Cobb and Hank Greenberg, despite their greatness, because I tend to favor players who played after the color barrier was broken.

Dear Peter,

You're an idiot.

Sincerely,
RMc

2. Miko Posted: March 16, 2008 at 12:58 PM (#2713656)

That doesn't seem like a very fun question. What about best Tiger since the end of the war?

Is it a no-brainer that it's Kaline and not Trammel or someone?

3. ACE1242 Posted: March 16, 2008 at 01:02 PM (#2713658)

But was he feared?

4. Hack Wilson Posted: March 16, 2008 at 01:19 PM (#2713667)

because I tend to favor players who played after the color barrier was broken.

Actually Kaline came up in 1953, I believe the first Tiger "Negro" player was Ossie Virgil in 1958 so I think Al should also be excluded.

I favor players who played in the dead ball era.

5. Russlan roots for the the mediocre Mets Posted: March 16, 2008 at 01:48 PM (#2713686)

Actually Kaline came up in 1953, I believe the first Tiger "Negro" player was Ossie Virgil in 1958 so I think Al should also be excluded.

What's that have to do with anything? Kaline did compete against black players.

In this case I discount Ty Cobb and Hank Greenberg, despite their greatness, because I tend to favor players who played after the color barrier was broken.

Depending on the discount, this is a reasonable statement.

6. Doc Nabbit Posted: March 16, 2008 at 01:50 PM (#2713688)

I'm more interested in who is the best pitcher in Tiger history. They have a long tradition of having really good pitchers, but arguably no greats - Wild Bill Donovan, George Mullin, Hooks Dauss, Earl Whitehill, Tommy Bridges, Schoolboy Rowe, Dizzy Trout, Hal Newhouser, Frank Lary, Jim Bunning, Mickey Lolich, Denny McLain, & Jack Morris.

Two Hall of Famers, but both were VC picks - and one played half his career elsewhere. I think Newhouser qualifies as a great pitcher, but he's got the WW2 stigma. It's a really impressive list of really good pitchers without anyone clearly and uncontestedly breaking from the pack.

7. AndrewJ Posted: March 16, 2008 at 02:12 PM (#2713698)

Ty Cobb should probably be the pick when you consider what a phenomenal hitter he was (.366/.433/.512 for his career). When you look at his career numbers, it’s like he had a bad season If he hit below .350. But I guess I like a guy who can also hit the long ball (399 career home runs, for example)

# of seasons Cobb finished in top ten HRs in league = 11
# of seasons Kaline finished in top ten HRs in league = 8

8. Robert Machemer Posted: March 16, 2008 at 03:18 PM (#2713729)

In this case I discount Ty Cobb and Hank Greenberg, despite their greatness, because I tend to favor players who played after the color barrier was broken.

Depending on the discount, this is a reasonable statement.

I agree. But we need to take about 25% of Cobb's value away in order to put him (roughly) at the same amount of offensive value as Kaline. That seems like a pretty hefty discount and it still only gets them (roughly) tied.

9. LIMA TIME! Posted: March 16, 2008 at 03:33 PM (#2713740)

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Unless that opinion is that Al Kaline was better than Ty Cobb. That's just mind-blowingly stupid.

10. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: March 16, 2008 at 03:49 PM (#2713755)

I tend to favor someone from the era in which Detroit had a non-white as manager. Anyone who doesn't think Robert Fick is the greatest Tiger is a racist.

11. booond Posted: March 16, 2008 at 04:13 PM (#2713775)

Ty Cobb should probably be the pick when you consider what a phenomenal hitter he was (.366/.433/.512 for his career). When you look at his career numbers, it’s like he had a bad season If he hit below .350. But I guess I like a guy who can also hit the long ball (399 career home runs, for example)

# of seasons Cobb finished in top ten HRs in league = 11
# of seasons Kaline finished in top ten HRs in league = 8

I found that statement strange for a discussion of Tiger fans. Cobb hit home runs.

12. Watch Crispix Attacks geek out Posted: March 16, 2008 at 04:18 PM (#2713779)

The best pitcher in Tigers history is obviously Mickey Lolich. Assuming that all those guys mentioned in #6 were equally good at pitching, you have to look for other deciding factors. And no pitcher had nearly as good of a batting eye as he did.

13. Tim Lincecum-stain (SuperBaes) Posted: March 16, 2008 at 05:07 PM (#2713810)

Question 4: Who is the best Detroit Tigers player of all time? Why?

Rob Deer, because he remains the only player to hit more than 25 homeruns and bat under the Mendoza line.

14. mrams Posted: March 16, 2008 at 08:19 PM (#2713887)

Cobb may have only hit 117 HRs, but he still has a higher slugging average than a few guys in the 500 HR club.

This is silly. Of the 'original 16' I think the Tigers probably have the biggest gap, or one of the biggest gaps, between best player in franchise history compared to #2.

15. Exploring Leftist Conservatism since 2008 (ark..) Posted: March 16, 2008 at 08:30 PM (#2713889)

In this case I discount Ty Cobb and Hank Greenberg, despite their greatness, because I tend to favor players who played after the color barrier was broken.

I've never heard it put exactly this way, but it sounds reasonable to me.
If someone batted exclusively against righthanded pitchers, wouldn't we have to take that into account?

16. Tim D Posted: March 16, 2008 at 09:10 PM (#2713903)

As a lifelong Tiger fan and observer of the bulk of Kaline's career, I'd have to say Cobb is an easy choice. Cobb was the dominant player of his era; Kaline was never that. Kaline was a great player, an all around talent evocative of what Dimaggio was, good in every aspect of the game. But Dimaggio wasn't better than Ruth. Best player since WWII: Kaline. Trammell and Whitaker next. Norm Cash, Bill Freehan and Lance Parrish were all very underrated players.

As for pitchers, my dad says Newhouser was as dominant as anybody there for a few years. I'd probably take Lolich over Morris. Justin Verlander has an outstanding chance to be the best Tigers' pitcher ever. And Miguel Cabrera is going to put up some good numbers in Detroit too.

17. davoarid Posted: March 16, 2008 at 09:33 PM (#2713913)

This is silly. Of the 'original 16' I think the Tigers probably have the biggest gap, or one of the biggest gaps, between best player in franchise history compared to #2.

Interesting topic. Who else is up there?

(Keep in mind I've given this like 20 seconds of Michelob-induced "thought"...)

1. White Sox (Frank Thomas vs.... Bill Melton!)
2. Pirates (Honus Wagner vs.... Paul Waner?)

18. ACE1242 Posted: March 16, 2008 at 09:35 PM (#2713915)

#2 Pirate = Clemente, not Waner. Not that that contradicts your suggestion.

19. mrams Posted: March 16, 2008 at 10:22 PM (#2713928)

In order to compare 1 v 2 among best franchise players, I would exclude any ABs/IPs while playing for other teams (i.e.) no Cobb Athletic stats, no Ruth Red Sox ABs/IPs, etc. If you include all games played for all franchises, you might have different 1 v 2s, for obvious reasons.

20. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: March 16, 2008 at 10:48 PM (#2713933)

#2 Pirate = Clemente, not Waner.

I'm sorry, the answer we were looking for was "Arky Vaughan."

21. davoarid Posted: March 16, 2008 at 10:55 PM (#2713936)

Keep in mind, my responses were limited to players whose strat-e-matic cards I remembered.

22. danup Posted: March 16, 2008 at 11:06 PM (#2713938)

Rob Deer, because he remains the only player to hit more than 25 homeruns and bat under the Mendoza line.

I realize we're not here to talk about the past, but Mark McGwire pulled off the trick in his last season. Sure, his batting average was eight points higher, but he did it in 299 at-bats. 23 singles, 4 doubles, 29 home runs.

23. ValueArb Posted: March 16, 2008 at 11:14 PM (#2713941)

In this case I discount Ty Cobb and Hank Greenberg, despite their greatness, because I tend to favor players who played after the color barrier was broken.

In 1940 at age 29, Hank Greenburg hit 41 HR, a line of .340/.433/.670 (170 OPS+) and won his second league MVP, the first to win at two different positions.

In 1946 at age 35, he hit 44 HR, a line of .277/.373/.604 (163 OPS+).

In between those seasons, he served his country honorably during WWII, missing five and half years during his peak. From ages 24-36 he never had an OPS+ lower than 156. I wonder if giving up five and a half of his peak years compensates for not playing against blacks?

Obv. Vaughn and Kaline had more defensive value (even though Greenburg seemed a nifty 1B), but neither was near Greenburg's class as a hitter. Of course, Cobb was, and given his defensive value, he wins.

24. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: March 17, 2008 at 11:01 AM (#2714100)

1. White Sox (Frank Thomas vs.... Bill Melton!)

Ed Walsh was apparently not in any of your Strat sets, eh?

25. RB in NYC (Now a Man with Options! Maybe!) Posted: March 17, 2008 at 11:11 AM (#2714107)

I wonder how big the gap is from Ruth down to...Gehrig, I guess. Probably not that large, only because Gehrig was such a great player.

26. SandyRiver Posted: March 17, 2008 at 12:06 PM (#2714143)

1. White Sox (Frank Thomas vs.... Bill Melton!)

Ed Walsh was apparently not in any of your Strat sets, eh?

Eddie Collins' very best seasons were at Philly, but 12 yr of OPS+ about 133 isn't to shabby at 2B.

At the other Philly, who's next after Mike Schmidt? Chuck Klein? Somebody I've missed? Do we include pitchers and say Carlton? (Though if pitchers are included, Walter J vs any other Senator ends the "biggest gap" discussion, IMO anyway, even if we include the Twins and Killebrew or Carew.)

Aaron and Matthews are pretty far apart, too.

27. Russ Posted: March 17, 2008 at 12:14 PM (#2714149)

I'm sorry, the answer we were looking for was "Arky Vaughan."

Barry Bonds' three earned MVP awards that resulted in two that were not completely robbed might take offense to that. Granted, he left Pittsburgh before he turned 30, but that doesn't mean that during that 7 season stretch he wasn't one of the best Pirates of all time.

28. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: March 17, 2008 at 02:00 PM (#2714207)

This is the kind of discussion that win shares excels at. Anyone got numbers?

Aaron and Matthews are pretty far apart, too.

I think you are underrating Matthews. And Killebrew. Agree that Collins is in the WS discussion. Also Appling.

For the Phils, maybe Sam Thompson. If your timeline adjustment gags on that, I guess I'd have to take Lefty or Richie Ashburn. That's a pretty large gap in any case.

I wonder how big the gap is from Ruth down to...Gehrig, I guess.

I don't think the gap from Ruth to Mantle is much to speak of.

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BDD: Rouleau: The Bloggers Roundtable - Detroit Tigers

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