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Monday, June 02, 2008

Beyond the Box Score: Anderson: Ned Yost May or May Not Like Ben Sheets

Don’cha think there’s a place for Yost,
In between the Sheets?

We all know that Ben Sheets isn’t exactly the most durable of pitchers and could realistically break down at any moment. Naturally Ned Yost has let Sheets throw 120 pitches or more in two of his last three starts, moving Sheets all the way up to third in Pitcher Abuse Points . Roy Halladay, who’s antics we talked about not too long ago is 17th, and the highest ranked Dusty Baker opperated pitcher is Bronson Arroyo at 20th.

The Brewer zeitgeist is to not trust that bullpen—tricky as expected—but Sheets’ trade value is on the line with every pitch he throws and even if the Brewers aren’t trading Sheets that gives them more of a reason to preserve his arm.

I know, the rule is don’t let pitchers throw when they’re tired and that pitch counts aren’t to be taken too literally, but Yost and the Brewers are playing with fire if this continues, and given how things are going it wouldn’t surprise me if Sheets had to take 15 days off sometime soon.

Repoz Posted: June 02, 2008 at 07:28 AM | 15 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralMilwaukee

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   1. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 06:50 AM (#2802827)
This post is based on a lack of understanding.

Ben Sheets is a free agent after this season. The market for quality starting pitching is competitive. Ben Sheets has a history of injury. The Milwaukee Brewers leadership believes Ben is a poor long-term investment.

So the plan by the ballclub for Ben Sheets is to work him. Period. No special accomodiations. No extended trips to the DL as precautionary measures. Send him to the mound and what happens, happens.

Ben is on board with this plan as he is looking maximize his return on free agency. He is eager to demonstrate to other GMs that he CAN be durable.

Yost is doing what he was told to do. Sheets is a willing participant.

There is no issue here.
   2. whoisalhedges  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 07:24 AM (#2802840)
And Sheets' injuries haven't tended to be of the overwork variety. More of the pulled-a-muscle-sneezing type.

He's either going to get hurt or he's not; and though it's not completely independent of being overworked, it's not that big of a concern, either.
   3. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 07:27 AM (#2802844)
The other question is how effective is he when he's passed the 100 pitch count. Some guys can throw that much, but they losee effectiveness relative to the pen at a certain point. Where does Sheets fit into that?
   4. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 07:32 AM (#2802845)
Shooty:

It changes. Sometimes Ben just runs out of gas and he's getting by on guile. Other times he stays strong and his velocity is good. The real sign of issue is control.

With the Brewers bullpen Ben Sheets at 110 pitches, throwing 90 with control is a better option.
   5. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 07:53 AM (#2802850)
It changes. Sometimes Ben just runs out of gas and he's getting by on guile. Other times he stays strong and his velocity is good. The real sign of issue is control.

So it's uo to Yost to figure which is which? Doe he do a better job at this that with bullpen usage? I've always thought knowing when to pull a starter and knowing when not to is the most important job a manager has. It seems as if it's become a lost art with modern bullpen usage, though.
   6. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 07:57 AM (#2802853)
Shooty:

Yost's inability to generate any level of consistent bullpen performance is his biggest failing as manager.
   7. Jay Z  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 08:19 AM (#2802868)
Yost's bullpens have not been good. It would also be helpful if the farm system would produce useable relievers more than once every 8 years or so. The Brewers record in producing pitching prospects over the last ten years has been terrible. Hopefully the recent guys will get the Brewers record on this topic to mediocrity at least.
   8. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 09:15 AM (#2802900)
Post 7:

The Brewers record in producing pitching prospects over the last ten years has been terrible.

Not to be "cute" but how are you defining prospect? And comparing Milwaukee to what standard for pitcher development?

I am legitimately curious.
   9. rfloh  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 09:21 AM (#2802904)
And Sheets' injuries haven't tended to be of the overwork variety. More of the pulled-a-muscle-sneezing type.


Didn't Sheets find out he tore a lat, one day after a start, a couple years back?
   10. _  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 02:09 PM (#2803172)
Just because Sheets is OK with it and the club is "OK" with it doesn't mean it's OK. This isn't Germany. No matter what's supposed to happen after the season, the club still has an interest in keeping him healthy and pitching well this year. They kept him in those games that long because they wanted to win those games. They took him out of Saturday's game after 8.2 because they wanted to win that game and they didn't want to hurt him. They won't keep pitching him like this because they know they can't, free agent or not.
   11. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad)  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 02:17 PM (#2803183)
"This isn't Germany."

I must've missed the part where the Brewers dismembered and ate Sheets.

Either that, or you just made the worst analogy ever (non-Nazi division).
   12. _  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 04:46 PM (#2803308)
You must have missed the part where it was a joke. However, the principle holds. If the pitcher says, "I'm OK, skip," you don't necessarily listen to him.
   13. cardsfanboy  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 05:00 PM (#2803317)
You know I enjoyed being out of the loop concerning that particular story that was linked in 10.
   14. Jay Z  Posted: June 02, 2008 at 09:04 PM (#2803633)
Post 8:

I made a quick study in the last few days of pitchers who had pitched their first game with each NL team in the last 10 years. So if a pitcher pitched his first game in the majors with the Brewers since 1998, he would be considered their prospect. This isn't an exact measure - Zach Jackson is considered a Brewer this way, and Thatcher isn't - but it's easy to do for any team.

Let's say that a major prospect is one who started at least 30 games in his career, or relieved in at least 100.

The Brewers prospects produced since 1998:
1998 - Valerio del los Santos
2001 - Sheets
2004 - Jorge de la Rosa

That's it. Villanueva, Gallardo, and Parra hopefully will make it, along with Dana Eveland, who's no longer with the team. In any case that's what they've had.

Here are the counts for all of the National League clubs in "pitchers produced" since 1998:
(if a player started 30 games and also relieved 100 or more, he's counted in both groups)

Brewers - 2 starters, 1 reliever
Cardinals 8, 7
Reds 5, 7
Astros 11, 6
Cubs 10, 8
Pirates 7, 6
Braves 7, 6
Nationals 9, 8
Mets 4, 7
Phillies 9, 4
Marlins 12, 10
Giants 9, 10
Rockies 4, 7
Dodgers 5, 5
Padres 9, 3
Diamondbacks 8, 13

Now that includes the studs like Sheets, and the stiffs like de la Rosa, and the guys that were traded away. But the Brewers just haven't produce ANYBODY. You can't build a whole pitching staff out of reclamation projects. The Brewers also have had about 7 saves from homegrown relievers in the last 10 years...
   15. ghost of perros  Posted: June 03, 2008 at 09:19 PM (#2804917)
The best part of the Armin Meiwes link was the following:

Since entering prison, Meiwes has become a vegetarian and has joined a prisoners' group favoring Green Party politics...
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