Bill McCurdy, historian emeritus for the Texas Baseball Hall of Fame in Houston, said he couldn't recall a previous instance of a physical altercation between a baseball general manager and a player. McCurdy is 70 and says he has followed baseball since he was nine years old.

``You treat a grown man like that in front of his peers and something's going to happen, but it's not going to be good,'' McCurdy said. ``There's no way for him to suddenly get up, if Wade raises his voice at him, and slump silently away to the office like he's being sent to the principal.''

Props to Lisa.

I don't care if Wade was letting live rats run around in the cafeteria and calling Chacon's mom dumber than 10 Tommy Lasordas; if Chacon physically assaulted Wade for yelling at him, it is not in any way defensible behavior. No matter what William T. Vollman says.

``There's no way for him to suddenly get up, if Wade raises his voice at him, and slump silently away to the office like he's being sent to the principal.''

Yeah, because this was the only option. As opposed to, I dunno, say, yelling back.

I don't think we need another Just-How-Wrong-Was-Chacon thread, so two points:

(1) Kudos to Lisa
(2) Raisen is 100% correct, while there are always exceptions, if a player and a GM are getting in even a screaming match in public, that's a bad sign for the franchise

Yeah, because this was the only option. As opposed to, I dunno, say, yelling back

or just keep sitting there...

now that could have been fun, Wade going off like a lunatic and Chacon eating lunch ignoring him...

This is called "blaming the victim".

(2) Raisen is 100% correct, while there are always exceptions, if a player and a GM are getting in even a screaming match in public, that's a bad sign for the franchise

Well, this I certainly agree with.

(2) Raisen is 100% correct, while there are always exceptions, if a player and a GM are getting in even a screaming match in public, that's a bad sign for the franchise

Why is this true? The first "serious" book about baseball I read as a kid was about the 1978 Yankees so that first impression of what goes on behind the scenes of an MLB team might color my perception here.

The first "serious" book about baseball I read as a kid was about the 1978 Yankees so that first impression of what goes on behind the scenes of an MLB team might color my perception here.

Shawn Chacon, I served with Reggie Jackson; I knew Reggie Jackson; Reggie Jackson was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Reggie Jackson.

As I said, there are exceptions, of which the 1978 are probably the most famous case. But to me when management (Wade) and labor (Chacon) are getting into public screaming battles, that reflects as badly on the Astros as it does on any other organization in any field.

It raises serious questions about the relationship between players and the team, how the team views what management is doing for them, the chance of players signing or re-signing in Houston, and the premium the Astros might have to pay.

As I said, there are exceptions, of which the 1978 are probably the most famous case

The 1972-74 A's

Among other things, the owner (Charlie Finley) was so incensed by a post season error by one player he ordered his immediate removal from the roster... his remaining teammates wore black armbands with said player's number on them...

This is called "blaming the victim".

No, it's called "Making a high-paid executive man up and own his professional mistakes", just as Chacon's getting released and possibly losing his pay is called "Making a high-paid employee man up and own his even worse mistakes." And, if Chacon really did "Choke him and hurl him to the ground" as we have heard in some quarters, and Wade wants to push it further--go legal, and if the Astros want to not pay Chacon a dime, then go for it. No objections from me. Let a court settle that.

But the fact that what Chacon susbsequently did was worse does not excuse Wade's behavior on a professional level. If the stories we are hearing are true, he ###### up and his actions indicate that he lacks the poise and interpersonal skills for a high-level management job. End of story.

I don't think we need another Just-How-Wrong-Was-Chacon thread

Yeah, you're right. But I'll leave my post up.

I want more Rays threads. That is the cool story right now.

I support robinred for 11th poster in this thread.

whoa

i get mentioned in a national column. i guess the emails i got were not spam after all.

sigh - and i WRITE the darn blog, not "contribute" to it!!! but i guess it is my fault for not reading the email

and that was hardly my best quote neither. ah well.

i guess kevin is always going to think that every single business should be run like the military and the boss should talk to employees like a drill sergeant.

shrug

- and i sure nuff talked about the trouble this incident is going to make in the future. or as RB sez "It raises serious questions about the relationship between players and the team, how the team views what management is doing for them, the chance of players signing or re-signing in Houston, and the premium the Astros might have to pay."


JPWF -
charlie finley made that player sgn a letter saying he was injured - threatened him - saying finley would make sure the player never got another job in the majors. finley wanted some other guy playing second. and the players actually threatened to forfeit the games if the player was not returned to the team. reggie was the team's rep.

raises serious questions about the relationship between players and the team, how the team views what management is doing for them, the chance of players signing or re-signing in Houston, and the premium the Astros might have to pay."

I took a quick look at your pre-season HBT piece about the Astros last night, and I noticed you mentioned clubhouse issues even then.

I support robinred for 11th poster in this thread.

I knew I should've deleted it.

robin,

well i knew there was a LOT of trouble last year over making 2007 all and only about biggio.

- and i had this bad feeling about the Organization bringing in tejada and immediately saying he was The Leader. and actually i even wrote about how well does a team do when it changes half its roster.

there is obviously SERIOUS issues between players and the manager/pitching coach and probably hitting coach. i have got a bad feeling that the blow up with wade/chacon was only a little of the bad stuff going on there

Speaking of Reggie --

Did you know he hit 47 HRs with a 189 OPS+ in his age-23 season in 1969?

My first baseball memory is of Jackson hitting a HR in Game 7 of the '73 Series.

What a player.

the only thing i remember about reggie is him in naked gun.

and unfortunately the only thing that really seems to get talked about is his mouth, his fight with billy, his strikeouts and total homers - and that 3 homer game. after i read about him in the year of 73 book, i went and looked up his stats and i was real surprised to see what a great player he really was. he really DID deserve to go in the hall and not only because of his homer totals

naked gun

Take this stuff to the ARod/Madonna thread.

robin,

you know ah LUUUUVVVVV you boy but if you don't mind i do NOT want to think about arod nekkid

or i guess i could say - when i think of "arod" and "hit that" in the same sentence i want it to be about him hitting a baseball

Did you know he hit 47 HRs with a 189 OPS+ in his age-23 season in 1969?

He was hitting .287/.414/.716 at the All-Star break, with 37 homers, before he cooled off in the second half.

You kids may not realize this, but 37 homers in half a season and a .716 slugging percentage was unheard of in 1969.

You kids may not realize this, but 37 homers in half a season and a .716 slugging percentage was unheard of in 1969.

Yes. There was a '69 SI cover story about Jackson's possibly challenging Maris. That was a bit before my time, but I have seen it on-line and looked up Jackson's '69 stats after reading Ball Four.

I believe it was Mark Armour in Paths to Glory who speculated that Jackson's ugly dispute with Finley in '70 led to Jackson's off year in '70 , shaped Jackson's persona, and might have affected him enough that he would have had an even better career otherwise. I am not sure it was Armour, but I did read that in a book.

Jackson was apparently off starting in August of '69 until the '71 All-Star break. I'd speculate it was mainly the league adjusting to Jackson -- pitchers stopped throwing him fastballs, and they put an infield shift on for him -- and a young player coming back down to earth.

He definitely had personal issues (his marriage broke up) and rows with Finley during that time. After hitting his first major league grand slam, he gave Finley the finger after crossing home plate.

Maybe he just needed glasses.

bootsy,

yeah that IS amazing. you know it is interesting how storys get told and retold until parts of them get left out. seems like The Story Of Reggie began in NY - but really it was the second half.

robin,

and yeah reggie had a bunch of ugly disputes with charlie finley - THAT guy was something else - and i am sure it affected reggie in all kinds of ways.

but one thing that doesn't nobody seem to remember is that back In The Good Old Days the players wanted to be paid well if they performed well - all this **** about how they were just grateful to be there and would have done it for free is so much bullstuff.

and reggie he also wanted some serious recognition for his greatness. from finley. from everybody. sort of like barry lamar you might could say...

- grinning

or like bout any other male i've known

And, if Chacon really did "Choke him and hurl him to the ground" as we have heard in some quarters

Wasn't that Chacon's own description of what happened?

monty,

this is chacon's exact words about the entire thing - as he said on the record to the astros beat reporter

“And I said, 'what do you want to speak to me about?'” Chacon said. “He said, ‘we just want to talk to you.’ I said, ‘anything you can say you can say to me right here. I don’t want to go to the office. He looked at me and I said there’s nothing for me to say to you guys.’ And I don’t think whatever they had to say to me they were going to make me happy. I didn’t want to get in a closed-room conversation. I just wanted to be left alone.

“I sat down to eat and Ed Wade came to me and very sternly said, ‘you need to come with me to the office.’ I said ‘for what?’ I said 'I don’t want to go to the office with you and Cooper.’ And I said ‘You can tell me whatever you got to tell me right here.’ He’s like, ‘oh, you want me to tell you right here?' And I said, ‘yeah.’ I’m not yelling. I’m calm.”

It deteriorated quickly afterward, according to Chacon.

“He started yelling and cussing," Chacon said of Wade. "I’m sitting there and I said to him very calmly, ‘Ed, you need to stop yelling at me. Then I stood up and said 'you better stop yelling at me.' I stood up. He continued and was basically yelling and stuff and was like, ‘You need to (expletive) look in the mirror.’ So at that point I lost my cool and I grabbed him by the neck and threw him to the ground. I jumped on top of him because at that point I wanted to beat his (butt). Words were exchanged.”

There's a difference between this case and the ones with Steinbrenner and Finley. Those involved the owner and a player, not an employee and a player. And with Steinbrenner and Finley, everyone knew what those two were like, and could chalk it up to "Crazy Charlie will be Crazy Charlie" or "Crazy George will be Crazy George." But here, for the first time right out in the open we have a GM flying off the handle at a player, and as Lisa says, that can't be good for the team.

And yeah, Chacon probably had to be gotten rid of, but that has nothing to do with what Wade did to begin with.

You kids may not realize this, but 37 homers in half a season and a .716 slugging percentage was unheard of in 1969.

The Al hit .230/.297/.339 in 1968, they lowered the mound and shrunk the strikezone- in 1969 the league hit .246/.321/.369

I looked at the splits for the top 10 in slugging that year- 9/10 hit better, most much much much better in the first half (only Northrup hit better the second half)

Reggie wasn't the only batter to go into the ASB with 30 homers that year either

I don't know what the league wide splits, but I'm guessing there was a league wide offense explosion in teh first half, and the league told teh umps to put a lid on it...

oh wait bbref does have splits for the league...

first half .250/.323/.375
second half .246/.316/.361

not as much as i expected....

I jumped on top of him because at that point I wanted to beat his (butt). Words were exchanged.”

who's your daddy now?

as he said on the record to the astros beat reporter

groan.

So at that point I lost my cool and I grabbed him by the neck and threw him to the ground.

Since people usually tell a story in a way that puts them in the best possible light, moving from "Grab by the neck" and "Choking" is not a terribly big leap. :)

One interesting thing about the 2 dysfunctional WS champs mentioned above is that they both went into tough times afterwards. Not that the Yanks went into an immediate death spiral exactly but they went into an era of a dysfunctional front office, that's for sure.

cabbage

- laughing

you got me.

but i was saying this to point out that chacon deliberately said this on the record in an inverview that he knew was going to be about this, to the guy who covers the team in the clubhouse every day and knows them as well as any man can know a bunch of guys who are usually careful to keep some kind of distance from media.

it wasn't a - well a source told me someone said this went down - written by some AP guy who don't know an astro from a ranger

Reggie Jackson was a great hitter and an awful outfielder. He had a decent arm, but he was challenged by batted balls hit to him.

edmundo,

i do believe that chacon grabbed wade by the neck to throw him down then went to get busy with the fists because abercrombie said he came between wade's face and chacon's fist. and chacon DID say beat his *** and NOT choke the **** outta him

and with my team, the FO has been dysfunctional ever since drayton mclane decided he could out GM gerry hunsicker and forced him out and installed purpuppet. wade got the job because he is the ONLY guy (and yes, this was on the record too) who openly agreed to "work with" mclane's buddy tal smith. the death spiral started right then pennant or no pennant

“And I said, 'what do you want to speak to me about?'” Chacon said. “He said, ‘we just want to talk to you.’ I said, ‘anything you can say you can say to me right here. I don’t want to go to the office. He looked at me and I said there’s nothing for me to say to you guys.’ And I don’t think whatever they had to say to me they were going to make me happy. I didn’t want to get in a closed-room conversation. I just wanted to be left alone.

“I sat down to eat and Ed Wade came to me and very sternly said, ‘you need to come with me to the office.’ I said ‘for what?’ I said 'I don’t want to go to the office with you and Cooper.’ And I said ‘You can tell me whatever you got to tell me right here.’ He’s like, ‘oh, you want me to tell you right here?' And I said, ‘yeah.’ I’m not yelling. I’m calm.”

I've been working for a while now and I think usually if management wants to see you in their office you go. Chacon was being extremely disrespectful - I don't blame Wade for yelling at him.

Ed Wade has a long history of behaving like an ass.

and with my team, the FO has been dysfunctional ever since drayton mclane decided he could out GM gerry hunsicker and forced him out and installed purpuppet. wade got the job because he is the ONLY guy (and yes, this was on the record too) who openly agreed to "work with" mclane's buddy tal smith. the death spiral started right then pennant or no pennant

Yeah, I hear ya. Lot of connections with the Phils' FO and Houston's as Giles started out in marketing in Houston. Heck, Harry Kalas started in Houston. Also Tal Smith enjoys a lot of Philly FO love -- I know he consulted on arbitration and I think he had some other connection too. Sorry to have dumped Michael Bourn on you for Brad Lidge. I think you have to be happy with the Brunlett/Geary half of the trade. Heck, even last year when Geary had a down year, his ERA+ was 105. He's a nice little middle of the bullpen guy.

jay z

- remembering that the astros WANTED to keep chacon and they WANTED him to pitch in the bullpen

if you were wade and the manager came to you and complained that chacon wouldn't talk to him or obey him, keeping in mind that the astros Organization WANTED to keep chacon,

would you have come into the cafeteria and called out chacon in front of so many other people? even IF chacon had agreed to go, do you REALLY think that doing that would get you even the littlest bit of cooperation from him? do you think that embarrassing a person in front of his co-workers is good management strategy?

- lets suppose, just for fun, that chacon had continued to calmly sit there and tell ed to mind his manners and his language and had not started a physical fight

do you think that wade handled his job in the best way? or even a good way? do you think that he managed to get done what it was that the astros wanted done?

do you think that the players NOW have more respect for either the manager or the GM?

oh yeah

please understand that i honestly do believe that chacon was acting like a small child who needs a nap who throw a tantrum when mami tell him to go take a nap. and i am not defending him punching out wade neither

This could be a new money-saving tactic all teams could follow. Rather than releasing a crummy player and having to eat his salary, provoke him into beating you up and try to fire him for conduct unbecoming. Or hire an insult comic (preferably a masochistic one) as an assistant to the GM to do the job.

Yes, hire one with a brown paper bag over his head.

The Unknown GM: Hey, Shawny, Shawny, Shawny! Have you ever made whoopie with your wife in the shower?

Shawn Chacon: Why, no, I haven't.

The Unknown GM: You should, she loves it!

rimshot

(Chacon violently grabs GM and crumples up his head.)

Gonfalon, thanks for providing me with the most important link of all time.
And thanks for transporting me back 30 years to the peak of Chuck Barris' career. The Unknown Comic was the absolute highlight of that show.

The Unknown Comic was the absolute highlight of that show.

Gene, Gene the Dancing Machine begs to differ.

The Unknown Comic was the absolute highlight of that show.


Gene, Gene the Dancing Machine begs to differ.

There are two kinds of people in the world, those who think the UC was the best and those who think GGtDM was the best. The gap is wider than the gap between the DH vs. 9on9 advocates. There is room for love of both in my world, but only room for one true love.

This could be a new money-saving tactic all teams could follow. Rather than releasing a crummy player and having to eat his salary, provoke him into beating you up and try to fire him for conduct unbecoming.

I like it. Now if someone could inject some PCP Zito's weed stash and make sure that Sabean and a bat were nearby, the resulting beating death would solve two of the Giants' biggest problems.

oh great. here we go again.

you know, that lisa gray completely lacks objectivity. i've read her blog. she's a worse astros fanatic than baseball chick. she probably got her job cuz she's a good looking blond or something.

:-)

while there are always exceptions, if a player and a GM are getting in even a screaming match in public, that's a bad sign for the franchise

As I said, there are exceptions, of which the 1978 are probably the most famous case

The 1972-74 A's

Actually, in both those examples it was a bad sign for the franchise. Both had other advantages to compensate for it, but was a bad sign for them.

Didn't Eldest MacPhail used to act beligerently to his players at times?

*slaps phredbird around a bit with a large trout

i should be spanked! yes that's it! spanked very hard! spank me!

Congratulations, Lisa.

Sorry, the coders of IRC clients weren't that kinky. Maybe if they had been German...

not surprised that there is a lot of sentiment against wade, though. there is something unseemly about how he handled the situation, not that that excuses any of chacon's actions. i'm going to stay a bystander on this one unless some other interesting info comes out.

I think the infamous incident when Jackson refused to bunt and Martin made a big scene in the dugout was, again, mainly the player's "fault," but then instead of handling the discipline quietly and professionally, Martin did what he was wont to do, and like Wade he only made himself look bad in the process.

Correction: Martin first put the bunt on, then took it off, but Reggie tried to bunt anyway and struck out. Then there was the other incident when Martin took Reggie out of RF in the middle of an inning after Reggie had questioned Billy's decision to have Dent bunt.

baseballing powerhouse (phredbird) Posted: July 03, 2008 at 04:58 PM (#2842280)

oh great. here we go again.

you know, that lisa gray completely lacks objectivity. i've read her blog. she's a worse astros fanatic than baseball chick. she probably got her job cuz she's a good looking blond or something.

phred darling,

me and lisa - we sistas under the skin

hehhehheh

and as for blond - NO way.
as for good-looking, well i assure you that every time i ask Husband - how do i look he tells me i am the hottest chick EVAH
as for getting the "job" - well at the time i had the right qualifications - no one else wanted it

and IF you want i should get out my big black boots and bustier
hehhehheh
you best do something FIRST about houston being too damm hot to wear em

as a battle-scarred veteran of a solid relationship with a woman of strong character who looks a lot like a hollywood actress, i can only say your husband isn't the only guy who knows the right answer to that question.

did i ever tell you about the time i went to houston after katrina and saw chris carpenter beat roger clemens? one of the great baseball experiences of my life.

baseballing powerhouse (phredbird) Posted: July 03, 2008 at 05:36 PM (#2842309)

as a battle-scarred veteran of a solid relationship with a woman of strong character who looks a lot like a hollywood actress, i can only say your husband isn't the only guy who knows the right answer to that question.

- and it is SUCH an easy answer you would figger more males would have got it


did i ever tell you about the time i went to houston after katrina and saw chris carpenter beat roger clemens? one of the great baseball experiences of my life.

- aw right there boy
you is ASKIN for it. no, BEGGING for it
and if i wasn't fixin to start dinner/write up about how much my baseball team sux

and now i'm in a BAD mood

well, if i remember correctly 2005 ended better for you than for me, especially on the baseball front.

I don't care if Wade was letting live rats run around in the cafeteria and calling Chacon's mom dumber than 10 Tommy Lasordas; if Chacon physically assaulted Wade for yelling at him, it is not in any way defensible behavior.

Hmm--yeah, it is. If you go up to a guy who's sitting down, start yelling at him, and start insulting his mom (particularly that viciously), you have no complaint whatever if he knocks you on your ass. I don't care it you're the Pope.

- and it is SUCH an easy answer you would figger more males would have got it

Easy, true. The real trick is to gently persuade ones Other to lose ten pounds and tone up a little.

phred,

and if i remember rightly, 2006 was better for yall. also 2007. also 2008. and the rest of the years for a LONG time

Midseason, gettin' uptight.
Where are you?
You said you'd compete,
now are yall going to?
You know I'm hangin'
but I'm still wantin' you.

Hey, Jack, It's a fact
they're talkin' in town.
You won't come back
and you're messin' around.
Aren't you feeling foolsh
You like lookin' like a clown???

I think of y'all ev'ry night and day.
You took my time
then you took my dough awayyayyayayay

And

Ah HATE MAHSELF FER LUVvVIN YEW
CAIN'T STOP WATCHIN THE DUMB THINGS YEW DO
AH WANNA QUIT N FIND OTHER THINGS TO DO
YEW CAN'T PLAY GOOD, BUT AH RUN TO WATCH YEW
THAT'S WHY AH HATE MAH SELF FER LUVVVVIN YEW!!!!

Daylight, spent the night WRITIN BOUT you.
cUZ I've been dreamin' 'bout the winnin you used to do.
Drayton, us fans iz angry 'bout the hell you put us through.

Hey, man, you just can't treat us fans right.
You just don't know what this team is missin' all right
I wanna see your face and say forget you just from spite.

Which is why

I hate myself for loving the Astros
Can't break free no matter how bad it goes
I wanna walk but I run back to see,
How bad the Astros doin on the TV

oh yes

AH HATE MAHSELF FER LUVVIN YEW
CAIN'T STOP WATCHIN THE CRAPPY PLAYIN YEW DO
AH WANNA LEAVE THE STROS FANCLUB ITS TRUE
CUZ AH HATE MAHSELF FER LUVVVVIN YEW

I think of my old team ev'ry night and day.
You took Luke Scott
then you gave Brad Lidge away.

I hate myself fer watchin yew
Cain't pitch, hit, field and yall suck, it's true
The Good Guys were good PLAYERS, Drayton you fool
And I should boycott until my ardor cool

but

I KNOW ah cain't stop luuuvvvin STROS
Into your pocket my money it goes

ssigh

AND AH HATE MAHSELF FER LUVVIN YEW
CAIN'T BREAK FREE FROM WATCHIN YEW
AH HATE MAHSELF FER LUVVIN YEW
AH HATE MAHSELF FER LUVVIN YEW

(with apologies to miss jett)

BBC, does that go better with Corona or just good old Thunderbird?

I was a Yankee fan, and I was sad
Because we scored no runs tonight
(Off bleeping Jon Lester)

And I was tormented to the depths of my soul
Thinking about 2001
And 2002
And 2003
And ####
And 2005
And 2006
And 2007

Will this misery never end?

It hasn't been a very nice century
For us flower children of Jerome Avenue
And East 161st Street

And then I met an Astros fannette...

And I put the Iodine back in the bottle

Misery DO love company

(With apologies to the Babe, the Iron Horse, the Jolter, the Mick, and the Straw that Stirred the Drink)

andy dahlink

no alcohol

more like you thought you was getting regular unsweet tea on a hot day and you got that nasty sweet fruity stuff

thatk goodness tomorrow is 4th of july

because even though i gotta cook some more Husband gonna hafta do most of the work. hehhehhehhehhehheh

take my mind offn how my baseball team is teh sukc

and your team gonna get unsuckt before MY team

Well, since this is the 4th of July, BBC, why not fill up one of those abandoned SUVs you must have on every block down there with a whole mess of M-80's and get one of Kevorkian's patients to drive it into the Astros' front office? Best way I can think of for a patriotic Yewstonite to celebrate Independence Day.