Rock around the Cox.

Mazzone would be the one guy that I wouldn't mind in New York if Peterson were to leave next year.

What teams would he be a good fit? Or who would need him?

I'm actually pretty happy with Kranitz.

“At the time it was a great move, but now I regret it. You see the difference in organizations and how things are run and, believe me, the Atlanta Braves are about as good as it gets,” Mazzone said.

The Braves are far better run than the O's. But saying negative things about a team, even when true, is what feeds his "attitude problem" reputation even if that reputation is unjustified.

But if he had it to do over, Mazzone would accept whatever Atlanta offered and assume his customary place in the dugout next to Braves manager Bobby Cox.

As a Braves fan, I endorse this plan wholeheartedly.

Has he been that successful at developing young pitchers though? Outside of his first crop, I guess Millwood is listed, there are a couple of other lesser ones I guess, but I never really thought of developing talent as Leos strength, developing health is his primary skill. If I want to develop young pitchers I talk to whoever has been running the show in Minnesota, Chicago (White Sox), Los Angeles, Toronto or Florida.

The Braves' lasting reputation for developing pitchers still stems from their early '90s success, not recent times. Since Avery, the Braves have developed the following pitchers:
Jason Schmidt, whom you might not even count as developed by the Braves
Kevin Millwood
Odalis Perez
Bruce Chen
Horacio Ramirez
Adam Wainwright, ditto Schmidt, but moreso
Chuck James

My hunch is that group is above average compared to the rest of the league, but it certainly doesn't blow me away.


EDIT: Forgot Jason Marquis. Eminently forgivable.

Yeah, Mazzone has a less than stellar track record with young pitchers. Seems like he works better with vets. John Burkett, Jaret Wright, Darren Holmes, and Chris Hammond come to mind.

It's kind of strange that people are putting "developing health" and developing "young pitching" as a dichotomy. In my view, they're pretty much central to one another. Basically, I don't know if there are any principles behind "developing young pitching" other than hoping that they stay healthy and then lucking into a couple figuring out out to harness the talent.

Well, Kazmir and Price are having arm problems and that's what I was thinking there.

If so, then yes I agree it would be a good fit. It's possible that the Braves had a fluke streak of luck to maintain their health all those years, but at the same time the number of articles written about the Braves system indicates that there may be something to their system.

The funny thing is that the organizations that he would probably like to coach for(Minnesota jumps out right there) are the exact organizations that don't need him. I think giving him some type of organizational power(not drafting but a say in how players are developed) along with giving him a team with lesser expectations could be where he would shine again. Tampa and Pittsburgh would be my two recommendations for a situation like that. Washington maybe, but I don't know how that ownership group would allow him to have that much power/responsibility.

It's kind of strange that people are putting "developing health" and developing "young pitching" as a dichotomy. In my view, they're pretty much central to one another. Basically, I don't know if there are any principles behind "developing young pitching" other than hoping that they stay healthy and then lucking into a couple figuring out out to harness the talent.

he's never really developed guy who had repeatable quality seasons. The guys on the list in post 8

Jason Schmidt, whom you might not even count as developed by the Braves
Kevin Millwood
Odalis Perez
Bruce Chen
Horacio Ramirez
Adam Wainwright, ditto Schmidt, but moreso
Chuck James


Schmidt didn't thrive until he left Leo, Millwood was his best pitcher he developed quite possibly the only one after the initial crop to have 2 good years in Atlanta while he was coaching there, Odalis Perez didn't have a good year until he left Atlanta, Bruce Chen's best year he was traded after pitching 39 innings for the Braves, next best year was after he had already traveled around a few years. Horacio Ramirez? not sure why he is listed never a good pitcher, Wainwright again not in atlanta (add Marquis to the list of players who thrived away from Leo) Chuck James? again not under Leos immediate watch.

heck looking at that list it seems that the best thing to do is not to allow leo to even talk to young pitchers, he sets up the developmental system and coaches the veterans but keeping him away from the youngsters seems like a wise tactic.

Mazzone has to get some credit for Erik Bedard and Jeremy Guthrie, both relatively young guys.

A great deal of responsibility lies with the minor league pitching instructors. Chen, Perez and Marquis were all very good prospects, though, but they just didn't buy what Mazzone was selling. By all accounts, he's a very my way or the highway kind of guy, with young pitchers in particular.

Mazzone & Atlanta:

Here's everyone of note who pitched for the Braves since 1999 under Mazzone (so, 1999-2005). Why 1999? Because that's when I got sick of checking.

Without doing any systematic study, I was really impressed with how many bullpen reclamation projects he turned into very good pitchers for the short while they stayed in Atlanta. Certainly not all of them - but sure as hell a sucess rate I'd love to see the Cubs have.

Guys who came up with Mazzone, and ages he had them:
Horacio Rameriz, ages 23-25
Jason Marquis, ages 21-4
Damian Moss, ages 24-5
Odalis Perez, ages 21-4
John Smoltz, ages 23-38 (in Atlanta before Mazzone)
Tom Glavine, ages 24-36 (in Atlanta before Mazzone)
Kevin Millwood, ages 22-27
John Rockers, ages 23-26
Blaine Boyer, age 23
Kevin Grybowski, ages 28-31
Kerry Ligtenberg, ages 26-31
Kevin McGlinchey, ages 22-23
Bruce Chen, ages 21-23
Tim Spooneyberger, ages 21-22
Trey Hodges, ages 24-25
Jung Bong, ages 21-22
Kyle Davies, age 21

Imports & reclamation projects - with ages he had them:
John Thomson, ages 30-31
Jorge Sosa, age 28
Paul Byrd, age 33
Shane Reynolds, age 35
John Burkett, ages 35-6
Terry Mulholland, ages 36-7
Tim Hudson, age 29
Russ Ortiz, ages 29-30
Jaret Wright, age 28
Greg Maddux, ages 27-37
Chris Reitsma, ages 26-27
Danny Kolb, age 30
JOhn Foster, age 27 (actually made MLB debut with Atl at age 24, but that was only 5 IP)
Antonio Alfonseca, age 32
Roberto Hernandez, age 38
Ray King, age 29
Mike Remlinger, ages 33-36
Chris Hammond, age 36
Jose Cabrera, age 32
Scott Kamieniecki, age 36
Rudy Saenz, ages 29-32
Russ Springer, age 30
Andy Ashby, age 32
Steve Karsay, age 29
Darren HOlmes, ages 36-37
Alpie Lopez, age 30
Juan Cruz, age 25

If I take Mazzone, it would be a long term thing, didn't he develop the Braves minor league pitching before Bobby Cox took over the team?

Without doing any systematic study, I was really impressed with how many bullpen reclamation projects he turned into very good pitchers for the short while they stayed in Atlanta. Certainly not all of them - but sure as hell a sucess rate I'd love to see the Cubs have.

agreed, he is probably the only pitching coach better at that aspect of the job than Dave Duncan. Factor in his ability to keep people healthy and there is a reason he is the best pitching coach of all time (contrary to what TLR claims)

Mazzone, more than anything, really is the poster boy for the "freely available talent" bullpen construction.
He has a knack for taking vets with a little talent and making them impact guys

Horacio Ramirez? not sure why he is listed never a good pitcher

Because he was a good pitcher in Atlanta.

Though he is a younger guy he fits into the same category of some of the vets as a guy not especially talented but a guy who Mazzone helped to maximize that talent. He pitched 520 innings with Atlanta with ERA+s of 107, 181, 91 and 99.

Another weak pitcher than Mazzone made very useful that has not been mentioned here yet in Kevin Gryboski. He is another guy with not a ton of talent but Mazzone helped him take advantage of the stuff he has that was MLB caliber. In Grybos case a good low 90s sinker. He wasn't great - his low ERAs mask the inherited runners that he would sometimes let score - but he was an above average reliever. Which is pretty good for a waiver claim at minimum wage

Chen, Perez and Marquis were all very good prospects, though, but they just didn't buy what Mazzone was selling. By all accounts, he's a very my way or the highway kind of guy, with young pitchers in particular.

He is. And the problem with those 3 pitchers is that they are all very hard-headed and sometimes uncoachable, so it jsut wasn't a very good combination. Those things have been said about those 3 even after they left Atlanta, so it isn't like that is the Atl press line to explain why the Braves couldn't get anything out of them.

By all accounts, he's a very my way or the highway kind of guy, with young pitchers in particular.

Yup, I think that's why Daniel Cabrera has responded really well to Kranitz while he had a terrible relationship with Mazzone. Mazzone tried to get Cabs to take a few miles off his fastball and locate better. Cabs tried this approach but it clearly wasn't working with him. In contrast, Kranitz attempts to work with each pitcher's strength rather trying fit everyone under particular approach. In the offsesaon, I wanted to see Mazzone finish out his contract but I've been really happy with Kranitz. Mazzone does deserve some credit with Bedard and Guthrie but he was never able to work his magic with any BP arms for the O's. Nor was he able revive pitchers from his Braves days like Jim Brower or Russ Ortiz.

RASKOL..
Basically, I don't know if there are any principles behind "developing young pitching" other than hoping that they stay healthy and then lucking into a couple figuring out out to harness the talent.

Um.. really?
No pitching coach has any ability to teach a player a new pitch, improve an existing one, how to throw strikes or - most of all - how to handle the considerable mental tasks involved with pitching and game management?

CARDSFAN..
Washington maybe, but I don't know how that ownership group would allow him to have that much power/responsibility.

Stan Kasten is still the Prez or CEO there right? I would think his prior relationship and knowledge of Mazzone's skills would encourage him to let Mazzone do what he wants

Though he is a younger guy he fits into the same category of some of the vets as a guy not especially talented but a guy who Mazzone helped to maximize that talent. He pitched 520 innings with Atlanta with ERA+s of 107, 181, 91 and 99.

the 107 era was the only full season that could borderline be called good. I'm a fan for average pitchers and don't mind the 91, and 99(76ip) era+, but I don't call that good, and the 181 was 60 innings.

I'd be surprised if he went to Washington. The team loves Randy St. Claire who, despite some of the results, has done a good job of keeping the pitching from being a complete laughingstock. They gave him a multi-year deal a year or two ago, so unless something dramatic happens...

Also, Kasten's a big Don Sutton guy, and Sutton has a few times intimated on the broadcasts that he's not really a fan of Rockin' Leo. I'm not sure how much counsel or input he'd have on the decision, but I'm sure it's greater than zero.

The Mets tried once to get him and Peterson's days are numbered with every poor Perez and Pelfrey outing. Odds are 2-1 he's in NY by all-star break.
http://sportslocker.blogspot.com/

Perez was 15-10 last year. How exactly did Peterson mess him up? So he isn't Greg Maddux yet.
Give Peterson credit for Maine, Sanchez and Feliciano, too. The Mets' problem hasn't been Perez, but poor offense.
Give him credit for Figueroa as well, who may supplant Pelfrey in another month.

who may supplant Pelfrey in another month.

That says more about Pelfrey than Figueroa.

“At the time it was a great move, but now I regret it.

A lot of O's fans feel the same way, Leo. Enjoy your rest, and go cuss out some vegetables. The 'cantankerous old man' act doesn't cut it any more.

Perez was 15-10 last year. How exactly did Peterson mess him up? So he isn't Greg Maddux yet.
Give Peterson credit for Maine, Sanchez and Feliciano, too. The Mets' problem hasn't been Perez, but poor offense.
Give him credit for Figueroa as well, who may supplant Pelfrey in another month.

you are attempting to apply logic to a new york baseball team. please man think before you scare the rest of civilization.... logic is definately not a prerequisite to the masses that make up new york fans regardless of team affiliation....these are arguably the same people that keep american idol on the air even after the first season when every single ####### human being pleads....god kill me before you start another season, meanwhile the masses in newyork say hey american idol is good.

Let's see, with the O's, both Bruce Chen and Rodrigo Lopez did better under the previous pitching coach (Ray Miller). Admittedly, the peripherals for both sucked (Chen especially), but the pair imploded under Mazzone.

Cabrera's issues with his former coach I suspect will be documented in detail as the season progresses (Danny had growing pains his second year, but really seemed to thrive under Miller), and Bedard was the Bedard Seattle had to have for a while in '05 (under Miller), until a knee injury cost him two months.

I love what Mazzone did with Guthrie, but seems like a guy with a 98 MPH fastball, solid control, Stanford pedigree and great conditioning maybe just needs to pitch every five days.

... and don't get me started on Mazzone's attitude at the end of last season. Admittedly the replacements to the injured six starters and five bullpeners were 4A at best, but they didn't need to be told that in the media by a guy wearing the same uniform as themselves.