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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Wednesday, May 21, 2008
Some of my best friends...are Brewer fans.
It has now been a week since Ryan Braun signed his record-breaking contract extension with the Milwaukee Brewers, but there is an issue that seemingly is not going away on several sports radio shows. Many people feel that race was an issue when the Brewers signed Braun over first basemen Prince Fielder.
For the sake of saving several people that may accuse me of racism, let me preface all this by saying that I am white, therefore it is hard for me to relate to a Black man like Prince Fielder or even Ryan Braun being of Jewish decent. I also believe that race is an issue not only in several instances in sport but also this country, but race is used FAR too much as a crutch for all races when it really isn’t an issue and this happens to be a case of that.
...The best case scenario will see Fielder join Braun in making a long-term commitment to the team. More than likely, Fielder will eventually be dealt and sign a long-term deal with an American League team. My money will be on Prince signing with the Red Sox and replacing David Ortiz as DH. Matt LaPorta will do just fine at first base so Brewers’ fans need not worry about losing Prince.
The decision to sign Ryan Braun over Prince Fielder came down to signability and overall baseball talent and potential. It had nothing to do with the skin color of either player.
Repoz
Posted: May 21, 2008 at 12:36 PM | 90 comment(s)
Related News: General, Milwaukee
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The article makes the point that Braun is an above average defender. As an AL follower, this is news to me. I had understood he was perhaps one of the worst all time defensives 3bs in history.
He no longer plays 3B, he's in LF. I have no idea how he is as a fielder there. I can't imagine he's that great.
Yeah, but this guy is calling him a five-tool player and above-average defender. I can't see any way that statement can be justified at this time.
let me preface all this by saying that I am white, therefore it is hard for me to relate to a Black man like Prince Fielder
I think you capitalize both "white" and "black", or (preferably) neither.
This ends my pedantic capitalization argument.
Anyway, has there really been talk that race had something to do with this decision? It takes about a quarter of a second of looking at Prince Fielder to come up with the much more obvious reason that was brought up in this article.
Has he looked akward at times? Yes.
Does he have substantial room for improvement? Absolutely.
But as Joe points out, due to his natural athleticism Braun is already superior to the lumbering dinosaurs like Carlos Lee and Adam Dunn and it would not surprise me if within a year he were to challenge Eric Byrnes for NL "supremacy" at the position, fielding-wise.
Folks may not know this but Braun is a pretty fast guy. He has a good arm. There are no physical impediments to him being a good defensive left fielder.
Race is ALWAYS an issue in Milwaukee, a city with a poor history (at best) of race relations and its treatment of some (not all) of its athletes of color.
Hence the reason for addressing the topic. While African-American fans don't attend the games in great numbers in Milwaukee their voices are heard via radio, television, etc. As they should be.
On a related note you know what segment IS coming to the games? The Latinos. Big groups to see Parra, Villanueva, etc. Something to watch for if that type of stuff interests you.......
I have no doubt about any of that Harveys. But asserting he is already an above-average defender when his career consists of 40-plus games in left and a historically inept year at third is not really defensible.
True, it's projecting. But then again, all of these contracts involve a certain amount of projecting (especially the Longoria one).
Ryan Braun is not represented by Scott Boras.
Oddly enough, I didn't know they moved him to LF. And even more oddly, I did have him in Baseball Mogul, where I did the same thing. He did not, however, flourish - but it was a good spot to hide his bat. He even won an MVP for me one season.
Milwaukee?
There were no "physical impediments" to him being a good defensive 3B either.
When I first saw him move at third, my first thought was , forget good, he could be a legitimately GREAT defensive 3B, then I saw him make an error, and another, and botch another (not called as an error)... He just could not play 3rd.
Soriano was a terrible defensive 2B, absolutely terrible, within a year he was above average in left. Perhaps Braun will be good in left too.
While I can't say there isn't any antisemitism in Wisconsin, I think it's less of an issue than in other places. The reality is that there just isn't a large Jewish population, so it doesn't really cross someone's mind that a person might be Jewish. I've long said that Wisconsin has two Jewish senators but none of their constituents know it...
Edit: Make that four. I forgot about Weeks. Anti-black sentiment does not seem to be an issue in Milwaukee's decision-making.
EDIT: Or what JoeHova said in #4.
Just note that racial tension always simmers in Milwaukee. Folks are always ready to recognize a perceived slight. It just IS.
Next signing should be a Hmong guy.
Tampa Bay. And on opening day, when Floyd was healthy, they had four. Of course, they have a starting nine.
Tampa Bay. And on opening day, when Floyd was healthy, they had four. Of course, they have a starting nine.
Cincinnati has Phillips, Griffey, and Patterson.
you are very understanding of the way things are.
it might could be true that race has got nothing to do with this one particular case. if fielder did not have boras as an agent i would also be REAL suspiscious of racism being a strong factor. but because of boras, i have got to say this time, you just can't tell.
but you know, it just might could be a case of 2 guys - one guy has got no problem for playing for a lot less money than he is worth and the owner pocketing a good 1/3 of his potential salary, and the other guy thinking he always to be paid every penny of money that should be coming to him.
and in my opinion, that is a decision of each man, which he is entitled to.
and we all know that every owner tries to pay the least amount of money he can to a ballplayer and i personally don't blame any ballplayer for trying to get what he thinks he is worth.
but either braun is gambling on himself failing or getting hurt, or he thinks it is fine for the owner to pocket a good amount of his salary.
if i were braun or any other really good young player, i wouldn't agree to give one penny of my salary to the owner's own pocketbook and i honestly do not understand guys like braun and that other guy who basically gave away 3 years of FA for pennies.
- if there is guys here who thinks braun did a smart thing, i would ask any of you if YOU would sign a 6 year contract for less than you are worth and you couldn't ask for more/leave the job AND you had no freedom. and i seriously doubt it. now i know you gonna talk about how you would perform sexual acts with a dead body or roseann barr for 45 mill, but that is an unfair comparison. it would be more like - if you DIDN'T sign a contract and you got raises every year like any other guy, at the end of 6 years you would have earned, say, $600,000 (yeah i know all yall make a lot more than that, but it is a nice round number.) so who here would agree to sign a 6 year contract for $400,000 WITH the understanding that you couldn't quit to work for someone else AND the understanding that you had to move wherever they told you and do whatever kind of work they told you to do. so like if you a real-estate lawyer, they could make you do lawyer work you hate or aren't no good at, like, say, defending baby rapers in court.
that is the real difference.
But there is value in the deal to Braun. If he suffers a career-ending injury, or if he suddenly goes in the tank, he's going to make more money than he otherwise would have. Where players stand on these contracts has a lot to do with how risk-averse and self-confident they are. And that varies player to player.
I understand it. The thing is, it's not pennies - $45 million is a lot of money, no matter how you slice it. And Braun will make that money whether or not he continues to produce or not. Unless he invests that money very poorly, he'll never have to hold a "real" job in his life.
Could he make more money by going year-to-year? Possibly. But the decision he made will pay him real, definite dividends.
A-Gon, Iguchi, Hairston, Gerut, E-Gon.
So there.
Five of what?
Braun apparently WANTS to play in Milwaukee. So if all goes well for him he will make about $51 million for doing so. COULD he make more than that? Likely. But there are no guarantees. And even accounting for inflation, currency fluctuations, etc. $51 million is a good amount of money.
I have no issue with Prince, or Corey for that matter who was also approached but turned down the offer, gunning for a bigger payday. More power to them.
Weird names for a bunch of "non-Hispanic blacks"....
Someone said "how many teams can say that they have 4 non-whites in their lineup", or something to that effect.
Sorry guys, this hapens when you don't hit the "refresh" button.
Damn...
So, yeah, they have two then.
BBC,
But there is value in the deal to Braun. If he suffers a career-ending injury, or if he suddenly goes in the tank, he's going to make more money than he otherwise would have. Where players stand on these contracts has a lot to do with how risk-averse and self-confident they are. And that varies player to player.
- yes, i understand perfectly that braun is gambling. but in order to win that bet, he has to be hurt or suck and i'm not sure i would want to be on the side of a bet like that. and the other thing is that i would think that in order to play and succeed at MLB, a player has to have pretty much incredible self-confidence. it is hard for me understanding the mind set where he has to think that he's gonna more likely be hurt/suck than be excellent. or even such low self esteem that he don't think he deserves to be paid what he's worth...
The Jerry Royster Experience Posted: May 21, 2008 at 03:04 PM (#2789628)
i honestly do not understand guys like braun and that other guy who basically gave away 3 years of FA for pennies.
I understand it. The thing is, it's not pennies - $45 million is a lot of money, no matter how you slice it. And Braun will make that money whether or not he continues to produce or not. Unless he invests that money very poorly, he'll never have to hold a "real" job in his life.
Could he make more money by going year-to-year? Possibly. But the decision he made will pay him real, definite dividends.
- but jerry,
the point is that 45 mill is NOT a lot of money for a top baseball player even though it is for you or me. you could say the exact same think about 10 million. or even 5 million.
that is why i try to put it in perspective of would YOU agree to give about 1/3 of your own salary for your boss to put in HIS pocket
If my salary was in that range, and I liked where I worked, and I was guaranteed that money, no matter how poor my work product was, then probably, yes.
Ryan Braun's financial goal isn't to milk Brewers management for every dime he can. It's to ensure that he (and his family) will be comfortable no matter what. He's accomplished that goal.
But it is not just a lot of money for a first or second year player, it's a ridiculous amount of money.
There's no way in hell he's above average in left.
1. They're still playing baseball for a living. It's not like they're going to take a ballplayer and force them to hand-wash the jockstraps for a living. It might be in a different town, and they might have the guy sit on the bench or play an undesirable position, but it's still baseball.
2. If Braun plays to his upside, he won't be sitting on the bench, and they're unlikely to trade him. I assume he wouldn't have signed the contract if he didn't like Milwaukee, so if he plays to his upside he's probably still happy. He might be underpaid relative to what he could have signed for, but overpaid relative to what he would've gotten had he just gone the min/arb route.
3. If he doesn't play to his upside, he gets paid for more than he's worth. Money can't buy him happiness, a starting position, or even permanent residence on the Brewers roster.
In short, if he plays well, he gets paid well and the rest takes care of itself. If he doesn't, he gets paid well.
i guess i am not clear so i will try again. braun is one of 750 people on this entire planet of 6 BILLION people good enough to play on a major league roster and he is amoung the top 75 guys in that group.
people who do what he does for a living at the lever he does what he does should earn a certain amount of money.
which is more than you coulod possibly get doing what you do.
which is why i keep asking you if you would agree to give 1/3 of your salary WHATEVER IT IS to your boss for the next 6 years.
if i remember rightly, you are a lawyer. the 3 people under my roof who work don't earn what you do in a year, so to me YOU are rich. what if i said to you that YOU shouldn't worry about not getting 1/3 of your salary for the next 6 years because you can perfectly well live on a 2/3 of it?
sosh u,
he is not getting 45 mill for one year. he is getting 45 mill for seven years, 2 of which he should be getting about 2/3 of that for those 2 years alone. you keep looking at the total sum, not the amount he SHOULD be earning for what he actually DOES.
based on your argument about how he can support his family for life, the guy should have been satisfied with one million for the rest of his life. he can get a roof to stay under, food, a car. he could just live offn the interest for the rest of his life if he put the mill in the bank.
i really REALLY don't understand why so many people really REALLY think that baseball players shouldn't be paid what they are worth and that the owner should keep some percent of what they should be making for themselves.
but at least you not as bad as some of the guys here who don't think that baseball players should be paid more than a poverty wage and should have to work the rest of the year like they did in the Good Old Days and that it is fine for the owner to pocket the entire payroll except for the hunded thou or so he would have to give to the ballplayers...
How much money Ryan Braun makes should really be up to Ryan Braun (how much money he can earn and what he's willing to negotiate), not anything else. He traded potential income for guaranteed income, and that's entirely his right.
if i remember rightly, you are a lawyer. the 3 people under my roof who work don't earn what you do in a year, so to me YOU are rich.
I work in a law firm, but I'm no lawyer. I probably earn less than you do.
BBC,
It has nothing to do with what I think. It's trying to understand what Ryan Braun is thinking.
He's a guy who was making, I presume, the league minimum last year. A contract for $45 million, however you want to spread it, is probably more than he ever imagined making in his life. To him, quite possibly, the difference between $45 milllion and a potential $65 or $75 million is immaterial. But the new deal not only sets up his future, but improves his present.
I don't begrudge players trying to get all they believe they're worth. But as someone who is pretty damn risk-averse, I'm not going to tell a kid in his lower 20s who signs a contract that secures his future at the expense of some extra bucks down the road that he's a dumba$$.
take a look at the left fielders in baseball and say that with the same amount of confidence.
Matt Holliday COL ,Hideki Matsui NYY ,Carlos Quentin CHW ,Raul Ibanez SEA , Ryan Braun MIL , Manny Ramirez BOS , Andre Ethier LAD , Fred Lewis SFO , Matt Stairs TOR ,Juan Pierre LAD , Delmon Young MIN ,Garret Anderson LAA ,Carlos Lee HOU , Alfonso Soriano CHC , Pat Burrell PHI, Luke Scott BAL ,Carl Crawford TAM , Mark Teahen KAN, Jason Bay PIT , Chris Duncan STL , Johnny Damon NYY, Jack Cust OAK , Adam Dunn CIN, Gary Matthews Jr., Scott Hairston SDG, Eric Byrnes , Shannon Stewart TOR , David Dellucci CLE
that is the top 28 qualifiers for left this year, sure you have a couple of real good fielders (most notably Crawford, Byrns and......well whoever else, you like I guess, but for the most part there isn't a tremendous amount of high end defense, Matt Holliday is considered to be above average and it takes about one game of watching him in action to know he isn't that good, but that the bar for average has been lowered so much for leftfielders that he is considered good)
CFB - compared to the average left fielder, Braun has made 4.5 plays fewer than the average left fielder given his opportunities, by my math. RZR isn't as good as, say, UZR, but it's not chopped liver either.
BBC,
There was a similar discussion when Evan Longoria signed his contract. I think post 30 in this thread explains it very well.
You see the same principle when you watch Deal or No Deal. Most of the time the deal they offer is for less than the expected value (meaning the average of all the dollar amounts left). Most people take the deal though because the first $50 - $100K is worth much more to them than the next $50 - $100K is.
If I were a ballplayer, I'd do the same thing. Guarantee myself to be set for life early with my first contract; then get paid market value later once the money is really "play" money (and "respect" money). Whereas for the typical ballplayer who is the son of a ballplayer, he already has access to his dad's cash (like Clemens' kids for instance). So he already has monetary security which makes him more likely to play hardball from moment one. Even if he suffers a career ending injury before this long-term deal is in place, he still has dad's cash to fall back on. Most ballplayers don't, so they want to ensure that they don't have to work a real job for a living if that worst case scenario came to pass.
What's interesting (and sad) in Fielder's case is he's acting like a typical son of a ballplayer would, except that his dad doesn't actually have any cash.
What's the average RZR for a LF in 2008? Looking at RZR for all qualified LFs in 2008 from THT, Braun's 873 rating is in the middle of the pack, with Brynes (960), Holliday, Lewis, Bay, Damon, Young, Crawford, Pierre, Dunn ahead of him. Behind him are Manny, Soriano, Diaz, Dellucci, Ibanez, Scott, Quentin, Burrell, with Lee (790) last.
His out of zone plays made of 12, is also in the middle of the pack.
His out of zone plays made is middle of the pack, sure. When you realize that he's played the second-most innings of any left fielder, and has the most BIZ opportunities, you figure out that having "middle of the pack" OOZ plays is a symptom of bad range.
i've always been rabidly pro player in the compensation area, and want them to soak those lying rich b@stards for every penny they can get. but on a case by case basis, i say if a player feels like he's reached the level of compensation he's comfortable with, and is with a team he likes, and is in a city he likes to live in ... well ... what's wrong? this is what they had the strikes for. the money's guaranteed, its not like football where he can be ripped off as soon as he blows out his knee.
is that a significant number at this point in time in the season? is that enough to declare There's no way in hell he's above average in left.
My point isn't that he is above average, average or below average, as it stands I have absolutely no clue how good or bad he is, I just think a lot of people misconstrue what average defense from left field is in this day and age. Cardinal fans think Duncan is the worse defender to ever carry a glove, I imagine Red Sox fans feel the same way about Manny, Seattle fans about Ibanez, Reds fans about Dunn, Blue Jay fans about Stairs, A's fans about Cust, Dodger fans about Pierre and I'm sure I'm missing a couple. Left field isn't about defense so you are going to have some brutal defenders out there bringing the definition of average down to what most of us would consider to be a "bad" level or at least "below average" if you understand what I mean (may not be as clear as I want to present it.)
Obviously there's sampling issues when you're talking about ANYTHING at this point in the season. But over a full season that projects (very roughly) to about -15 runs below average. I can't say for certain that he's that bad, or that there's "no way in hell" he's above average. 100ish BIZ opportunities gives you a decent room for error in your measurement.
But there's really no evidence for the claim that he's a "five-tool player" at this point. Being near the tops in the NL in putouts and assists, like some have mentioned, is probably a pure function of his playing time, not any defensive talent on his part.
agree that there is no way that at ths particular time any rational baseball fan could describe braun as "above average" in left. now, he's young and he might could get better, youneverknow. but right now, he's not real too far above clank lee
vi,
a ballplayer has to do whatever the team tells him to. so if they tell him to be a utility guy or they get a phil garner type manager who think every guy should play every position, for all he knows, poor ol braun might could end up at short. youneverknow.
but i completely disagree with you - IF he continues to play at this level for the rest of his contract, he is NOT getting paid well, he is being grossly underpaid. you guys are too prejudice by the actual amount of money he does get and you are not paying attention to what he is actually worth.
in order for this contract to be worth it, he has to start seriously sucking by the end of the 5th year, or get hurt and not play.
That's a pretty big "if", though. Sure, Braun could make more by holding out, by going to arbitration every year once he's eligible, and filing for free agency the second he's able, but that's up to Braun. Nobody here would begrudge him his right to do so were that his choice.
But he made a different choice. He's going to be a wealthy man now, and probably for the rest of his life, and he made a decision as to what was important for him.
Really, what the players' union has been fighting for isn't really the ability to squeeze the owners. It's to give players like Ryan Braun the ability to negotiate contracts just like that, should they so choose.
Well, he did play short in college... after Hardy, Counsell, and Hall, he's probably fourth on the Brewers SS depth chart.
Let's hope it doesn't come to that, though. ;)
As to the rest of your argument, I think it's awfully hard to project 7 seasons of career based upon what is done in the course of one calendar year. I certainly hope, as a Brewers fan, that Braun continues to play like he has, and better. If he does so, yes, he will be underpaid, compared to his peers, during the last couple of years of his contract. That said, other posters are right: if indeed he is underpaid at 31 and 32, that performance will ensure that he is NOT underpaid at 33. In fact, given the aging patterns of most professional ballplayers, if Braun is underpaid in his late 20s and early 30s, he will likely be overpaid as a free agent (since that will most probably be during the decline phase of his career.
I can absolutely see positives for both Braun and the Brewers in this contract.
Regarding his defense Braun is already more comfortable in left than he was at third. After the first few weeks of looking completely uncertain on anything but the routine he is looking more fluid by the day. I think retro is reacting to the first few Cubs/Brewer series where Ryan looked foolish on several plays. The frequency of those incidences has abated.
I still think if given another season Braun could have become a passable third baseman. I am convinced that given regular playing time he will be adequate by the end of the year and a notch above soon after.
What I'm trying to say is that our outfield is really deep defensively. Now if only Rickie could learn how to play second....
Centerfield?
Um, no.
I mean, he'd be my sixth choice on the whole team (maybe seventh -- can Dillon handle center?) but he probably wouldn't be THAT much worse than Hall was the first couple months last year.
i clean houses and do child care part time, which is not exactly much money after gasoline. you don't make money blogging about a baseball team whose fans are pretty much limitid to the city they play in. (and bout the only way i could make more money is to hook or sell drugs and i don't go there.) so you make moren me. but then again i got no idea what they pay a guy who works in a law office and is not a lawyer but i am quite sure you don't make the $$$$ like they do.
but my point still stands about you not agreeing to have a guaranteed contract for less money over time.
-----------------------
sosh u
the league minimum is 390K. which is a HUGE amount of money. please, it is not exactly like he is hurting on that. as for understganding ryan braun's or evan longoria's thinking, i guess like i said, that they are taking the down side of a gamble and THAT is the part i don't understand given who THEY are. because either they have to think they aren't WORTH more OR they have to think that it is more likely that they will get hurt/suck, than that they won't. and i do not get how you could succeed at MLB if you think like that.
i don't think that it is like the rest of us poor people who really got no chance to ever earn any kind of decent money - so if you ask me would i take a sure small amount over a possible large amount i would ALWAYS go for the absolute sure thing because that way i know i have SOMEthing. but then again, i don't have confidence and i never have had none and i think guaranteed something is ALWAYS better than possible nothing.
but if i was a great ballplayer, i'd be like prince/papelbon. no question.
- smile
you know these guys reminding me of this old lady i took care of when i worked in the old folks home. she told me she married this guy even though she didn't really like him real too much because he had more money than anyone else who was interested in her and she figured, hey it is the depression and at least i'll not worry about where my next meal is coming from and i'm not getting no younger and pretty soon there won't be no more guys at all... but then of course the payment is having to live your life with someone you don't like and there is nothing you can do about it
-----------------
bob and dread pirate,
you assuming that at age 32 braun is still elite and that teams will still pay elite old guys much of anything which i am not real too sure they actually will and i am betting that with the way things are going that fewer and fewer old guys will get big or long term contracts and that they will instead just go with AAAA like guys who are cheap. or just refuse to offer any decent $$$ to FA. and with teams signing guys like longoria/braun/tulo to long cheap contracts, i am starting to doubt that there will be much of any serious FA contracts for hitters by the time 2015 comes around
so i would not be so calmly tossing away so much $$$$
the other thing is that not being paid what you think you should be paid is serious disrespect in the Black community - gary heffield is the loudest example of that, but this is very real...
which is NOT, by the way, saying that the decision to give braun and not fielder the long term contract was racially motivated - because of boras, i'm not sure my own self and i am a person who is pretty suspiscious a whole lot of the time...
They don't have to think that. They just have to have a risk-averse mindset. Weird things happen, and this contract is excellent insurance for Braun.
Let me try this analogy. Let's say someone offers you two choices. You can either take $100 cash and walk away, or you can spin a wheel, which gives you a 75% chance of netting you $150 or a 25% chance of giving you $10.
Which do you take? It really depends on your personality - different people would do different things. There's really no right answer.
braun in center?
dude, please. it is all he can do to deal with left. and yeah, i think he has not had real too much playing time there and he could get better, youneverknow.
pierre is not a BAD LF like, say, clank lee or adam dunn or pat the bat or chris duncan (i can't really comment on the AL guys because i don't hardly ever watch AL ballgames). it's just that he has a very very limp arm. he reads balls VERY well and he gets very good jumps and i haven't seen him misplay balls, or dog it getting to balls in the corner.
as for braun's future, as an astros fan, i hope that he and every other brewers player sux a little bit more than my astros. as a harvey's fan i hope they play so well that they can do great in spite of yost
Considering your feelings about the contract, aren't the Brewers screwing the white guy?
If Braun wanted to go the Fielder/Paps route, more power to him. If we wants to trade a good shot at a long-term windfall for more immediate payoff and more security, ditto. As long as Ryan Braun is satisfied with the contract, which I presume he is since he was under no obligation to sign it, I don't really see why I should be worried or get angry about it.
I think that is a safe assumption that elite 33 year old players will continue to get top dollar in the future. For the last 30 years, there haven't been any instances of elite 33 year olds not getting their money. What if he's not elite at 33? Well, he probably wouldn't have been elite at 32 or 31 either, which lowers the amount he would have gotten if he didn't sign that original deal. So the first contract he did sign would underpay him less if he weren't elite. And he still has his "set for life" income to fall back on from that contract.
I would kind of look at it the other way -- while the disrespect card is played, at the same time it's awfully tough to give up guaranteed money that would set them for life, especially if the player grew up in the inner city with no money. It's a lot easier to play the respect card later. Mo Vaughn is a good example here -- he signed a below market deal on his first contract which set him up for life. Then once that contract expired, he fought for market value and kept insisting that it was about respect. And he got his huge deal. But as big as that deal was, he was set for life already because of the first deal.
As to some of your broader points in responses to others, I definitely understand what you're saying. It takes a certain mindset to be a professional athlete -- the athlete needs to have complete confidence in himself -- and taking a below market deal is sort of like saying "I don't think I can keep up this performance." And I can definitely see this. I view it like the Rod Tidwell character in Jerry Maguire when he turns down the below-market contract -- it never crossed his mind that he couldn't keep up his performance.
But I think there are at least three other issues here which outweigh that aspect for many athletes, which would cause them to accept a below-market deal for their first contract:
1) As mentioned, the fact that many athletes came from situations where they had little money, and it's very tempting to get the money now and set yourself up for life, then to wait for later when it might not be there.
2) Peer pressure -- the older vets who have gotten their money live in style. There is a difference between $400K and $2M in annual income. Players want the $2M now so they can at least "compete" with their other teammates in terms of lifestyle.
3) While these players certainly would never foresee a decline in their abilities, they do fear injuries. So they're afraid they may not get the cash in the future because they might blow out their arms, for example if they're pitchers.
So I think those are legitimate issues in the eyes of many athletes which would cause them to want to accept a lower deal on the first contract.
If the market makes that kind of 'correction' then Braun's present deal will be paying him more than the then-going rate for his performance.
I make a pretty good living, but am much closer to BBC's wages than to Braun's $45m. I've turned down more lucrative offers because I was uncomfortable with some of the possible downsides, including the stability of the offer. Looks to me that Braun did so here.
I always think back to Mark Fidrych when we have these discussions. After his brilliant rookie year at the dawn of free agency -- when he was paid, IIRC $16,500 -- he signed a long term deal for 4 years and about $225,000 (not per season; total compensation). The Bird was asked about it and he said, in his always humerous way, that while he was turning down a potential big pay day, he was guarenteeing that he would be on a major league roster long enough to qualify for a pension that would get him through the rest of his life.
Considering your feelings about the contract, aren't the Brewers screwing the white guy?
If Braun wanted to go the Fielder/Paps route, more power to him. If we wants to trade a good shot at a long-term windfall for more immediate payoff and more security, ditto. As long as Ryan Braun is satisfied with the contract, which I presume he is since he was under no obligation to sign it, I don't really see why I should be worried or get angry about it.
- i think that every team does its best to screw every player, black, white, asian, latin, they can out of every cent they can and the younger and more insecure the guy is the harder they turn the screws. what i DON'T know is how much pressure they put on a young player to sign a contract that (hopefully) give the owner another 20 mill to keep for himself. i don't know if the player he worry that he'll be benched, sent to play short, made into a utility guy, whatever would ruin him if he DOESN'T sign.
- on the other hand, braun and every other player he has got an agent who is supposed to do everything in the player's interest, so it ain't like the good old days so many guys here be missing where the player could sign whatever the owner gave him or not play at all and it served the greedy effer right - the player, not the owner. it could be that braun got less confidence than fielder, who knows? maybe he think that he won't be elite to age 32, who knows?
but as for me, from everything i seen and read, the owners #1 interest is to screw the players as much as possible and to keep as much of their money for their own self as they can, so i know what is going on.
and the more the owners can get away with these long cheaper contracts to young guys it will be ever so much easier to screw them even more when they 32 and i don't care what that moron bissinger write - there is no such thing as a baseball team that don't have a ton of stat guys working for pennies and tons of accountants and they all know that most players are well on the rapid way down by 32 which is why they are signing them for a fraction of their value that way.
- amusement
the astros have done basically the same thing for years by basically refusing to call up players until they are at least 25 or 6 even if they are ready years before. then of course he is either cooked or they let him go/trade him by his last arb year. of course they missed a couple years of a good cheap player, but hey, that is THEIR gamble...
I don't think teams do that to players any more. They don't have that sort of leverage, especially on players like Ryan Braun, and they'd probably end up shooting themselves in the foot.
Making deals like this even more appealing for a club.
Hmm. I disagree. They may not have that kind of leverage with Prince/Papelbon-type players, guys who are becoming increasingly self-aware of their own value, but with guys like Ryan Braun, Evan Longoria, Chris B. Young, etc., management is exploiting certain insecurities that young players have about their future. I'm sure before Ryan Braun signed that contract, he's had a moment or two where he realized, "omg, I could totally split my head open falling down the dugout stairs and my life will be over," and the Brewers are taking advantage of that insecurity by throwing him gobs of money to sign a long-term contract, because they understand that the chances of Ryan Braun falling down the dugout stairs and splitting his head open is virtually nil. Milwaukee had a lot of leverage in Ryan Braun's case. By offering that contract, they more or less told him, "You could suck two years from now so you're better off signing this contract this year." And if Ryan thinks, "Man, that's so true," and signs that contract, the Brewers win, as long as that contract is under market value. Of course, there's certainly a chance that Ryan Braun does ends up sucking and the Brewers lose. Much more likely, if he isn't a star, then he'll probably be league-average or competent (defense notwithstanding), and while the Brewer's may not exactly win the deal, they're far from screwed. But just because Ryan Braun isn't unsatisfied with his contract doesn't mean he isn't being exploited, to some degree.
what on earth are you talking about? he played like 6 years of minor league ball and didn't even get much of a signing bonus
By signing this deal, Braun has greatly diminished his chance of making $200M in his career, if he turns out to be a guy that might have done that. But he has reduced to zero his chance of making less than $50M. If something catastrophic had happened this year, his potential "floor" was what - $500K? Maybe $1M? (I don't know what his signing bonus was, and I'm not going to dig out a BA at work.)
From a utility standpoint, I would argue that there is a greater difference between having $500K and $50M in your pocket than there is between $50M and $200M.
My two cents...
Being underpaid is not necessarily a bad thing. Braun bought peace of mind, and that's a very nice thing to have. The difference between what he got and what he could've gotten is trivial compared to what he got and what a former phenom with a blown-out knee gets.
I dunno, LA-land center fielders have been getting extremely rich at 32 in recent years.
I did suggest he would be underpaid relative to his worth if he played to his potential, so apparently we agree on that point.
I also said that his current contract is probably worth more than he would have received had he simply not signed and went year to year, if he plays to his potential. It's probably not worth a lot more. I'm assuming we disagree on this. That's fine.
Whether we agree or disagree on that last point, the thing to note is that it's conditional on his continuing to produce at this level. If he plays at a lower level, this contract becomes a much better deal for him.
in order for this contract to be worth it, he has to start seriously sucking by the end of the 5th year, or get hurt and not play.
Where I have him pegged - the contract being a little better than what he would've gotten year-to-year - even a small drop in performance makes it a pretty good deal. He doesn't have to start seriously sucking. Again, we might disagree on this, and that's fine.
you guys are too prejudice by the actual amount of money he does get and you are not paying attention to what he is actually worth.
What is he actually worth?
As of this moment in 2008, what is it worth to a team to employ Ryan Braun's services as a baseball player through 2015? There's a lot we don't know at this time. Last year he had an elbow injury in spring training and a May wrist injury that kept him out of action for a couple of weeks in the minors. We also know he hit the snot out of the ball. And there are questions about his defensive potential.
He might be the next Manny. He might be the next Nomar. He might even be Tony Clark. There's a pretty wide range here.
When I look at the contract, I see Jason Bay money through the arb years and J.D. Drew money in free agency. Given we don't know what will happen over the next 8 years, that seems like a pretty reasonable approach to a guaranteed contract, from both sides, given what we know now, and especially given what we don't know.
i went to my husband and asked him - without telling him the exact amounts, if he would sign a guaranteed contract for 7 years that gave him no freedom as to where he would live or what he would do and would average out to be about 20% less than what he would get if he signed a new contract every year. he said NO.
then i said - what if it was 45 mill for the 7 years, but if you signed a contract every year if would be 60 mill IF you didn't get hurt/suck? (and remembering he come from a poor family and is NOT an athlete) he said he didn't care if he left 200 mill on the table, he would take that kind of money NOW because youneverknow what might could happen and heck he would have taken half that. and of course, he's a family man and braun isn't, but then again, husband don't have gambling in his blood.
i then asked my 2 brothers who WERE athletes - we weren't as poor as my husband's family, but you are not talking the kind of money that most ballplayers including ryan braun had growing up
BOTH of them said they would go year to year to make SURE they got what they worth and didn't leave no mooney on the table. because in order to win the bet, they would have to be less than they were and they couldn't see them self as either hurt or not the best. and they didn't want to be paid less than what they were worth even for up front money.
which i think is how a professional athlete has to think to excel, even survive, no matter what they say to the media. especially in baseball. because it is a game of failure.
who is to say that Braun isn't thinking that, and thinking like your husband, and thinking like a guy who ultimately wants to win, who for whatever reason trusts his GM to do what is best for the team. If Braun is happy with the amount of money he is making, and feels that Melvin will do what is best with the money that is left on the table to help the team, then in Brauns mind, it's possible that leaving money on the table makes it easier for him to claim World Series Champion, if now they have money to pursue a Brandon Webb instead of a Suppan.
I don't truly understand the concept of taking as much money as possible. I know that some people have us vs owners mentality but I really don't fathom that. If I'm getting paid enough that I'm happy with the money, I don't care what I could have gotten, I don't care where I rank among other people making money. None of that is relavent to my ultimate comfort and happiness.
You are correct re. my reaction; I'm basing it on what I've seen of Braun in left, and what I've seen wasn't very good. I don't discount the possibility of his becoming a decent LF at some point. And it's still a lot better to have a mediocre-to-bad defensive LF than it is to have an astonishingly awful defensive 3B.
That said--what Harveys and baseball chick said about his becoming a CF. Maybe on this year's Cincinnati Reds, if Patterson's released and Bruce gets hit by a bus.
I always suspected you were a Commie.
Ha!
you don't understand taking as much money as possible?
i don't understrand you not understanding. there is no salary floor and no salary cap. the owner is not trying to figure out how to pay bills with a monthly paycheck. he puts all the extra $$$ in his OWN pocket.
like i keep saying, imagine that every time you cash your paycheck, you hand your boss 30 cents of every dollar. he is NOT gonna use that to pay some OTHER person.
WHY would you want to hand some of what YOU should have earned to your boss/owner?
because it is NOT like you are sharing it with a teammate
Like I wrote, commie. Pinko.
Note that his team is known as the "Redbirds".
again, not everyone is a lawyer and feel that the ultimate way to happiness is a fat wallet. And once again, the money he leaves on the table could be used to get better players.
The owner says he has a budget(whether he is being genuine or not doesn't really enter into this discussion) and if you can help the team have financial flexibility while being happy with what you are making, then why must you take more? just for ego?
i'm a fairly poor person, not a lawyer, and trust me, the few bucks i get for cleaning houses i work for. and i don't dare ask for more because there's tons of illegals will do it for less and i am lucky to get ANY.
harvey he grew up poor. he been the worker. he been the owner. and he is not no lawyer.
but both of us understand getting paid what you are worth and both of us understand that bosses want to make you work for as cheap as possible. hopefully for free.
i can't believe that you actually believe that nonsense about the owners needing "financial flexibility." they don't need "financial flexibility" any more than you need to have large breasts hanging offn your chest. the unspent money goes in the owners pockets. don't you really understand that the "poorest" owner make a MINIMUM of 30 mill a year - and now that they don't have to account for money from RSN or MLBAM or ticket resales it is a LOT more than that.
the owners can perfectly pay players what they are actually worth and IF the players want to make more salary room available IF it was necessary, they could defer salary. but to not be paid at all is bullstuff
when it come to the owners, what you do not get is that their ONLY interest is to make as much money as possible at every one else's expense - taxpayers, ballplayers. they want to pay the ballplayers as little as possible because they get off on that. which is why they keep putting it out there about all the grededy ballplayers etcetcetc. and people like you actually believe that shtt. it is the owners are greedy
More commie talk!
I'm sorry but expecting employers to pay to the max possible is ridiculous.
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