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Sunday, September 28, 2008

Brewers clinch playoff spot

C Sabathia and Ryan Braun put the Milwaukee Brewers in the playoffs for the first time since 1982 - with big help from the New York Mets.

Making his third consecutive start on three days’ rest, Sabathia pitched a four-hitter and Braun hit a tiebreaking homer in the eighth inning to lead the Brewers over the Chicago Cubs 3-1 Sunday.

The Brewers, who fired manager Ned Yost with only two weeks left to go, won the NL wild card less than a half-hour later when the Mets lost to Florida 4-2. Milwaukee (90-72) and New York (89-73) went into the final day of the regular season tied.

Thousands of fans stayed in Miller Park to watch the Mets’ game on the giant video board in center field, standing and cheering wildly as the Marlins recorded the final out.

Streamers and confetti fell from the rafters and fireworks went off in the outfield as interim manager Dale Sveum and the Brewers began showering each other with champagne in the middle of the clubhouse.

“I tried to visualize what this would be, and nothing could describe it,” Brewers principal owner Mark Attanasio said in a television interview.

Harveys Wallbangers Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:56 PM | 79 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralMilwaukee

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Phil Coorey Needs To Know How To Kill A Cat  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:32 PM (#2959261)
Congratulations to Harvey and NTNGod - you left in frigging late but deserve that wild card.

EDIT - I forgot these...

!!!
   2. Dedicated to Esoteric but he wasn't listening  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:36 PM (#2959267)
Listening to Bob Uecker on the radio feed today was a wonderful experience. If you have an MLB.tv subscription, check out his call of Braun's HR (2h47m in). Electric stuff.
   3. Lassus  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:38 PM (#2959268)
Good work, guys. We just weren't good enough.

I will be rooting for the Brewers to take the ring for the rest of the way.

If you could sweep the Phillies in a particularly humiliating manner on your way, that would be great.
   4. Vaux, A.B.D.  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:42 PM (#2959271)
Especially since the Phillies are more likely to beat the Cubs, and I don't want the ####### Phillies in the World Series.
   5. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:48 PM (#2959274)
Brewers were 1-5 versus the Phillies and outscored 33-16.

The key to the Brewers season was the 24-6 record against Pittsburgh/St. Louis.

14-1 against Pittsburgh. 10-5 against St. Louis. And if you ask ME which is the more pleasant record it is the latter.

The notion that a Ned Yost team would have that level of success versus LaRussa leaves me dumbstruck........
   6. VoodooR  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:48 PM (#2959275)
Especially since the Phillies are more likely to beat the Cubs

Not sure I see why...
   7. Best Dressed Chicken in Town  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:49 PM (#2959278)
Post #9 on this thread looks rather prophetic. The main topic appears amusingly archaic.
   8. JoeHova  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:49 PM (#2959281)
Well, it was a rollercoaster, but they got it done. I'm happy for them.
   9. aleskel  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:51 PM (#2959282)
congrats, Crew fans. 26 years is a looong time - you deserve it.
   10. Dedicated to Esoteric but he wasn't listening  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:53 PM (#2959285)
I'm still awestruck, even now after it's all over, at the monumental performance of Sabathia down the stretch. The only thing it compares to is Randy Johnson's 1998 run with the Astros, and I think it exceeds that given the pressure, repeated outings on short rest, and clubhouse drama (Yost firing, etc.).
   11. salvomania  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:53 PM (#2959287)
The notion that a Ned Yost team would have that level of success versus LaRussa leaves me dumbstruck........

How true.

Reverse that record and the Cardinals are the NL Wild Card.
   12. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:55 PM (#2959290)
By the way, the club made three major moves during the season. Extending Braun for umpteen years, trading for CC and firing Yost.

Based on today methinks Melvin got the big things right.

Him and Churchill baby. That's what gets you remembered in the annals of history........
   13. Poster Nutbag  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 05:58 PM (#2959292)
TB Vs. MIL:

I can't wait.
   14. 1k5v3L, Useless  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:02 PM (#2959295)
TB Vs. MIL:
I can't wait.


I believe Bug Selig would give birth to twin velociraptors if this happened.
   15. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates)  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:06 PM (#2959300)
FWIW, I'm rather happy that the Brewers-get-into-the-playoffs-thread was started by Harvey.
   16. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:09 PM (#2959304)
Congratulations to Harvey and NTNGod!!!

Second. It doesn't seem like 26 years ago.
   17. Gambling Rent Czar  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:09 PM (#2959306)
TB Vs. MIL:


LAA vs LAD.
   18. vortex of dissipation  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:10 PM (#2959307)
Him and Churchill baby. That's what gets you remembered in the annals of history...


Trading for Sabathia = not sending more Hurricanes to France in May, 1940.
   19. Jim Wisinski is waiting till next year  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:11 PM (#2959309)
Congrats to the Brewers and their fans. Pretty shaky through September but they made it in and that's all that counts.
   20. Smiling Joe Hesketh  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:21 PM (#2959314)
Awesome for the Brewers to get in the postseason. I'm glad they made it; it's been too long.
   21. Levi Stahl  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:29 PM (#2959324)
Congratulations to Harveys and NTNGod. That was a hell of a ballgame: everything you want on the last day of the season. The big guy was amazing--the very picture of cool, the offense was just good enough, and Braun looked like he was about to pop out of his skin on the way around the bases.

This will be a fun October even without my Cardinals.
   22. AROM  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:30 PM (#2959326)
That was an awesome finish. CC probably locked up the Cy Young with that effort.

I hope the WS is a rematch of the 82 ALCS.
   23. mashimaro  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:34 PM (#2959331)
I am glad to see neither New York team in the playoffs. I am sure MLB is quite disappointed with losing those "baseball fans" to watch their televisions :)
   24. Kyle C welcomes back our OBP Savior  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:38 PM (#2959333)
That was an awesome finish. CC probably locked up the Cy Young with that effort.


Lincecum did go 7 with 13 K's giving up only 1 R today. I really couldn't blame anyone for giving it to CC, but I'd still pick Lincecum and I think he'll end up barely winning.
   25. bunyon  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:38 PM (#2959335)
CC was amazing but don't let Johan's effort Saturday get lost.

Congrats Harveys and the rest of you Brewer fans.

That was a helluva 5 minutes where 3 HR got hit that settled things.
   26. 1k5v3L, Useless  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:38 PM (#2959336)
Ironically, both Yankee stadium and Shea go dark in their final seasons without experiencing playoff baseball for one last time
   27. Kyle C welcomes back our OBP Savior  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:41 PM (#2959337)
Ironically, both Yankee stadium and Shea go dark in their final seasons without experiencing playoff baseball for one last time


Michael Kay?
   28. mrams  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:43 PM (#2959339)
I haven't felt such a relief in my life, but for maybe once or twice. After attending 500+ games, a majority of which under the management of the Seligs, Lopes, Treblehorn, Garner, Royster, heck I think Dave Stewart managed a game or two, this is just a great feeling. It felt good last night when I heard that the Packers, THE PACKERS!!!!, were being bumped to an FM owned affiliate of AM-620, this was huge and it feels so good to watch this and listen to it over and over again. I can't believe I'm going to be tailgating at Miller Park's parking lot in October for a postseason game. It's going to be a blast.
   29. Vaux, A.B.D.  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:53 PM (#2959347)
Yep, you guys feel the way I did in 2006. It feels great, doesn't it? Enjoy it!
   30. the Tuque of Flatbush  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:54 PM (#2959350)
If Manny, Sabathia, and Lee win the NL MVP and NL and AL Cy Youngs, respectively, and the Rays win the World Series, this will go down as a very weird year.
   31. Joey B.  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 06:59 PM (#2959356)
Congratulations to the Milwaukee Brewers and their loyal fans.

With the Rays and the Brewers, this season has definitely proven that there is hope for any franchise to build a good team, no matter how long the battle.
   32. I can out-debate Joe Biden; Nieporent said so  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 07:01 PM (#2959360)
Congratulations to the Brewers and their fans on the playoff berth. Although personally I would rather the Cubs be playing the Mets in the first round, as a potentially easier opponent, it was a great race for five months and two weeks with you guys. As a respected fellow Midwest team and rival, I'm happy to offer you a big "good job".

(No offense intended to any of the good Mets fans on here.)
   33. 1k5v3L, Useless  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 07:03 PM (#2959364)
Michael Kay?
Ironically, no
   34. retro-shiite  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 07:03 PM (#2959365)
So when do they announce LDS game times?
   35. CFiJ  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 07:13 PM (#2959376)
So, what happened with BTF earlier today (yesterday for me)? The page wouldn't come up for me, and now I see that there are no(!) chatters for all the games. There's no Mets fan self-immolation thread, and no hijacks. It's all a little creepy.
   36. NTNgod  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 07:17 PM (#2959382)
So, what happened with BTF earlier today (yesterday for me)?
The same thing that happened to MLB.com for much of the afternoon, I suspect. SPLAT.


Jesus, after September began, the Brewers blew away 4.5 games in two weeks to lose the wild card lead, then gain back 3.5 games on the Mets in a week.

Thank God a playoff wasn't required; I have to go in for surgery tomorrow morning (just getting a cyst removed; should be pretty straightfoward). The last thing I'd have to want to do is race from getting surgery done and nervously glue myself to a one-game playoff game :P
   37. 1k5v3L, Useless  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 07:18 PM (#2959387)
Geez, NTN, good luck tomorrow
   38. NTNgod  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 07:27 PM (#2959402)
Geez, NTN, good luck tomorrow

Thanks, but it's an out-patient thing that's only supposed to take an hour (or less), so I shouldn't be there that long.

It's the first time I've ever had any surgery (the only other time I've been in the hospital is when my diabetes was really out of whack back in 2001 before I went on insulin), so I'm probably a lot more nervous than the procedure actually calls for.
   39. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 07:34 PM (#2959408)
NTN:

Good luck me boy.

And savor the next few days....
   40. NTNgod  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 07:41 PM (#2959415)
Thanks... It should be OK as long as I don't go around the hospital loudly laughing at Romo's performance and loss to Washington today* or anything; that might get me into trouble
(* since I'm going to Burlington for this :P)
   41. Phil Coorey Needs To Know How To Kill A Cat  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 07:58 PM (#2959430)
It should be OK as long as I don't go around the hospital loudly laughing at Romo's performance and loss to Washington today


My Redskins buddy & I savored every moment.

Suck it Dallas - I wish someone would take out the owner when he is on the sidelines as well.

Not being able to sit on BTF today during on the drama was a sad moment - luckily Dan was online on facebook.
   42. NTNgod  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 08:01 PM (#2959434)
I was kidding about that; Romo's FROM Burlington (where I'm going tomorrow; it's just a few towns over from where I live).

If I started talking trash about Romo in his hometown, my hospital visit might not end as pleasantly as it would otherwise :P
   43. McCoy  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 08:03 PM (#2959438)
Phillies in 4 and the Cubs probably in 4 as well.
   44. baseball chick (now, with NEW blog)  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 08:27 PM (#2959457)
whoa

i didn't know BTF went down.

me and mama and lil miss went down to the Box to see bradley hotness for the last time - what's that ol song - save my life i'm goin down for the last timeeeeeeeeee

but now it is time to say how HAPPY i am for harvey and all the other brewers fans been waitin soooooo long - they been waitin sooooooo long - to be where they goin - with the CC of their luvvvvv-uuhhh- uvvvvvvvv -uuuuh - uvvvvv

GO BREWERS!!!!!

i really REALLY hope CC stays with the crew. instead of takin the money and runnin to the bronx
   45. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 08:34 PM (#2959466)
Let's not forget the hard working bunch at BrewCrewball. Class act all around.
   46. baseball chick (now, with NEW blog)  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 08:37 PM (#2959470)
harvey

are you going to go to the games?
   47. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 08:43 PM (#2959475)
It's official. Ben is done for the season.
   48. _  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 08:58 PM (#2959491)
It's official. Ben is done for the season.

He was actually fine until he got hit in the eye with a champagne cork.

Seriously, this would seem to put Yovani on track to pitch Game 1. Now that's a helluva story. Except they'll probably go with Suppan, I suppose.

Parra could be a key guy out of the bullpen in this series. I know he's gassed, but he looked good yesterday, and he could probably handle a couple innings at a time. It's a shame we're not going to see the rotation at full strength. With Sheets healthy (chuckle), a short series is exactly what this team is built for. I would have liked their chances against the Mets, but this will be tough.

Congrats to Harvey and NTN, the only Brewers fans who matter.
   49. Andere Richtingen  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 09:02 PM (#2959497)
I haven't spoken to him, but I am assured that this lifted the spirits of my ailing father-in-law, a lifetime Brewers fan. Well, that can't be accurate, since he was 55 when they moved to Milwaukee. Anyway, he isn't going to have too many seasons left, so it would be nice if they made this a good one. Not too nice, of course...
   50. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 09:06 PM (#2959506)
HSF:

Any hope that Hart's bat is found?

And Torres magic elixir????
   51. mrams  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 09:12 PM (#2959510)
MLB has posted starting times for games 1-2 and 3 in some cases. All times eastern.

Tuesday, September 30th
7:30 p.m. MIN @ CWS - A.L. Central Tie-Breaker (IF NECESSARY) on TBS

Wednesday, October 1st
3:00 p.m. MIL @ PHI
6:30 p.m. LAD @ CHI
10:00 p.m. BOS @ LAA

Thursday, October 2nd
2:30 p.m. CWS or MIN @ TB
6:00 p.m. MIL @ PHI
9:30 p.m. LAD @ CHI

Friday, October 3rd
6:00 p.m. CWS or MIN @ TB
9:30 p.m. BOS @ LAA

Saturday, October 4th
6:30 p.m. PHI @ MIL
10:00 p.m. CHI @ LAD
   52. _  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 09:21 PM (#2959524)
Any hope that Hart's bat is found?

He's hit lefties well, but not Hamels. Not that there's any shame in that.

There's certainly a scenario under which they can win. The real shame is that they probably won't do the bold thing and leave Suppan out. He's the weak link, and he's probably going to pitch either game 1 or 2. I'd go Gallardo, Sabathia, Bush. If they win game 1, though, I might start Suppan in game 2 and move CC back to game 3. (Because Bush is not a good fit in that ballpark.)
   53. Dingbat Charlie  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 09:25 PM (#2959529)
They are an easy team to root for. A Brewers-Rays WS would really be something.
   54. _  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 09:30 PM (#2959532)
I was also going to say: Once they get to Blanton and Moyer, they should be able to score some runs, so it all depends on whether they can steal one of the first two games and then outslug them at home. Or maybe it will go nothing like that. I really really hope they take my advice and hold CC out until Saturday if they win one of the first two, though.

Edit: I mean game 1, of course. If they lose game 1 there's probably no doubt they'll bring CC back on 3 days' rest again.
   55. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 09:36 PM (#2959535)
HSF:

He was asked after the game if he was coming back after 3 days rest and before Schroeder even finished the question CC shouted "Absolutely!". While that was more the moment I still don't see how Sveum doesn't go that route since it leaves CC available for a game 5 if needed.

But I agree that Yovani would be the better choice than Suppan in Game 1. With the bullpen completely fresh and McClung in the wings I think Gallardo would be a bold and possibly game-changing move......
   56. Rembrandt Q  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 09:51 PM (#2959561)
Absolutely wonderful day. Probably sent/received 100 text messages in a span of 30 minutes, high-fived several random strangers in the grocery store, and threw around hugs like candy.

Harveys, I told you chaos could make weird things happen. Happy we Brewer fans came out on the right side of the ledger this time around. Anything from this point forward is gravy.
   57. _  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 09:55 PM (#2959564)
While that was more the moment I still don't see how Sveum doesn't go that route since it leaves CC available for a game 5 if needed.

Yeah, but once they start down that road they're pretty much stuck with that pattern throughout the postseason, aren't they? CC said one of the reasons he was able to do this was that he had a few extra rest days earlier in the month. But who knows? He's young and strong, and it's been done before.

Good luck the rest of the way, Harvey. I hope they can at least put on a good show.
   58. retro-shiite  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:00 PM (#2959573)
An 8:30 local time start on Thursday. Woohoo! May have to work at home Friday.
   59. Rembrandt Q  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:05 PM (#2959578)
Here's Uecker's call for anyone interested.

http://www.sportsbubbler.com/multimedia/Audio/Brewers/092808_Wrap.mp3

Braun's HR is a little short of halfway through.
   60. NTNgod  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:20 PM (#2959594)
Lost in all this is that the Brewers are the only team to have earned playoff berths in both the American *AND* National Leagues.

Think they'll have that oddity to themselves for awhile.
   61. Where's Vince Lloyd Now That We Need Him?(sjs1959)  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:26 PM (#2959598)
Sveum was 7-5 down the stretch, do you think they bring him back?
   62. _  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:27 PM (#2959599)
once they start down that road they're pretty much stuck with that pattern throughout the postseason

To answer my own question: no, they're not. I didn't realize they have another off day the following Monday between games 4 and 5. So starting him in game 2 would allow them to bring him back on full rest in game 5.
   63. _  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:31 PM (#2959604)
Drawing 3 million is just huge for this franchise. Had they not made the playoffs, though, they might have been looking at 1.2 million next year.
   64. Crispix Attacks is in the best shape of his life.  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:32 PM (#2959608)
There are SO MANY off days in the postseason this year. And hurricane season isn't over. Sabathia could throw all five games in this series if Hurricane Kyle and his friends spend a lot of time visiting Philadelphia.
   65. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:40 PM (#2959622)
What CC did in the past 9 days was amazing. What he did on the today was beyond belief. He is an ace, a stud, a stopper.

That said, when picking a Cy and MVP, I don't put a lot of weight on the success of the team. Some, but not a lot. So Lincecum gets my vote.

Congrats, Harveys and all the other Brewers fans here.
   66. Where's Vince Lloyd Now That We Need Him?(sjs1959)  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:46 PM (#2959636)
Yes indeed, congrats to Harveys and NTN and the Brew Crew fans, and to Bob Uecker as well. It's a shame more people aren't aware what a wonderful broadcaster he is...
   67. Weeks T. Olive  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:47 PM (#2959638)
Congrats to the Brewers, their fans, and my fair city of Milwaukee.

It's weird; I *wanted* the Brewers to win the WC, but watching today's game, I was as much a bundle of nerves as if it had been a playoff game for the Cubs. I badly wanted the Cubs to win, despite the fact that there was something positive (for me) to be gained by them losing. I guess it comes down to the fact that even when there's nothing on the line, I still can't bring myself to root against the Cubs.

Here's hoping for the I-94 series in the NLCS.
   68. Maholm Shuffle  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 10:47 PM (#2959639)
Sveum was 7-5 down the stretch, do you think they bring him back?

If he wins the World Series, he goes straight to the Hall of Fveum.
   69. mrams  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 11:02 PM (#2959654)
Here's Uecker's call for anyone interested.


Thanks for posting. I just realized, that is Uecker running the post game show, I assume Powell was in the clubhouse. That was pretty funny. Ueck never does the post game. You could tell Ueck was shuffling papers, not to mentioned overwhelmed by what had just happened.
   70. Benji  Posted: September 28, 2008 at 11:42 PM (#2959678)
I'm a Met fan, but not a jinx. So Brewers fans, don't be scared that I'm rooting for your team to make the WS. I like watching them play.
   71. BeanoCook  Posted: September 29, 2008 at 12:04 AM (#2959690)
(where I'm going tomorrow; it's just a few towns over from where I live)


NTN, what town near Burlington are you from? I'm from near that area.
   72. NTNgod  Posted: September 29, 2008 at 12:11 AM (#2959691)
Born in Kenosha, grew up in Bristol and Paddock Lake in Kenosha County; I'm down around those parts currently.
   73. mrams  Posted: September 29, 2008 at 12:52 AM (#2959713)
Good luck to you Monday NTN, from nearby Waukesha Co. I hope things go well.
   74. Vaux, A.B.D.  Posted: September 29, 2008 at 12:59 AM (#2959721)
Best wishes from me, as well, to one of the Most Valuable Primates.
   75. BeanoCook  Posted: September 29, 2008 at 01:51 AM (#2959747)
NTN, I'm from the Muskego area.
----

I know a lot of people/analysts are picking, Philly, I get it too. Philly has Lidge and a few really great ball players. But, I don't think the starters are special, outside of the very good Hamels. Remember the margin in these short playoff series is not much better than 55/45. Anyone can take these 5 gamers. I am going to say it right now, I like Bill Hall to really step up and produce vs Philly.
   76. The Bones McCoy of THT  Posted: September 29, 2008 at 04:08 AM (#2959765)
Congrats to the Brew Crew contingent here at BTF and deepest condolences to the Mets' rooters.

No fans deserve to go through that two years in a row.

Best Regards

John
   77. bunyon  Posted: September 29, 2008 at 07:25 AM (#2959789)
Hell, I'd not be upset if CC was voted MVP and Cy Young. What an effort. And he seems to really relish it. Maybe he can win 8 postseason games. It may blow his arm out and cost him a lot of money, but the joy of that triumph would keep him warm.
   78. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad)  Posted: September 29, 2008 at 08:07 AM (#2959816)
"Sveum was 7-5 down the stretch, do you think they bring him back?"

Depends how the postseason goes, most likely.
   79. retro-shiite  Posted: September 29, 2008 at 08:33 AM (#2959840)
CC's a total blast, spoken as a fan of the Brewers' archrival; he's Zambrano's cool, calm and collected spirit twin. I hope he throws 2 utterly exhausting yet brilliant complete game wins against the Phils this week as the pinnacle of his season (and that the rest of the staff can scrape together a win). He and his mates can wait till the LCS to come back to earth. :-)
   80. The Polish Sausage Racer  Posted: September 30, 2008 at 10:08 AM (#2961083)
I don't know when I've had more fun at the ballpark. The crowd went completely nuts, twice. Once when the Brewers won, then after we watched the Mets lose on the Jumbotron. I'm still hoarse from all the screaming.

I was an undergrad when they were in the playoffs last, and now I'm an old man (though not quite as old as Harveys). Sure happy to have seen it and to have been there. You could smell the champagne up in the loge level (section 211, row 5 seat 5).

Couldn't believe the people next to me: showed up at the start of the 3rd inning (okay, traffic, whatever) then left before the 7th inning stretch. Ai yi yi yi yi. They have to be kicking themselves.
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