Rick Schlesinger, the team's executive vice president for business operations, said the team has no hard numbers but believes there are more African-American fans coming to the ballpark this season.

Place looks the same to me. Could it simply be that attendance is up in general which means more of everybody will be at the game?

Anyone unfamiliar with the history of race relations in Milwaukee should look up the name of Father James Groppi, a fascinating, courageous man. It's nice that two of the team's best and most prominent players are Africa-American, and that they seem to be making some strides in the inner city, but Milwaukee needs a lot more than that. What they need most is a lot less inner city.

At various times (Milwaukee) has been described as one of the more “racist” cities in the nation.

This list of the most racist cities in America seems to be rather indefinite. It apparently exists, but no one has apparently seen it. Whenever the list is (symbolically) pulled out, someone with an agenda is usually doing the pulling. Either the puller wants to say, 'Well, we may be a bunch of bigots, but we're not as bad as we used to be. I don't see the point in paying off that blackmailer.' Or, 'Have you checked the list lately? We are one of the most racist cities in the history of humankind! We damn well better give money to Jesse Jackson.'

To solve this problem, I propose we make a defined list with specific criteria. I'm not sure exactly what criteria should be used to earn a city points on 'the most racist list,' but it could include number of members in the KKK, number of Confederate flags flown per household, and number of people who actually like Country music.

Just to get things started, here is my preliminary list of 'most racist cities' in America:

10. Jacksonville
9. Indianapolis
8. Hattiesburg
7. Green Bay
6. Flint
5. El Paso
4. Dallas
3. Cincinnati
2. Boston
1. Albuquerque

Fortunately for the home of the Brew Crew, Milwaukee is not actually in the top 10.

Are we talking about peak or career racism? Indianapolis and Cincinnati both had great peaks in the heyday of the KKK, whereas the consistency of the racism in places like Memphis may be more impressive.

At various times it has been described as one of the more “racist” cities in the nation.

I've never been to Milwaukee and basically know nothing about it, but this is the first time I've ever heard this. What is the basis of this description?

They might do better with a less offensive spokesperson.

On a serious note. Good for the Brewers. A ballgame is a place where everybody should be able to get together and find a common ground. I'm a Negro League history junkie and it makes me sad to think the black community might be abandoning the game.

Indianapolis and Cincinnati both had great peaks in the heyday of the KKK, whereas the consistency of the racism in places like Memphis may be more impressive.

I was actually going to comment on Cincinnati's impressive longevity - racial tensions there are alive and well. Kabaka Oba, Timothy Thomas, Roger Owensby, and Nathaniel Jones told me so.

Being from Cincinnati, I bristle a bit at seeing the Queen City in your list, Rich. What besides the riots of 2001 is your basis for that claim?

I live now in Alameda CA, a city which was called the most racist in America on the Nightline program. That's an utterly laughable claim, and makes it pretty clear that such a label is foolishly and recklessly applied.

Ivan:

In recent times on a sports level multiple African-American athletes have claimed harrassment as well as having been detained and in some cases arrested with no follow through on charges. NBA players in particular make mention of Milwaukee being hostile to African-Americans. It is known that when African-American players join the Green Bay Packers that part of the "informal" initial training is instruction on how to handle oneself in Milwaukee.

On a city-wide scale the relations between the black community and local law enforcement is abysmal. The Milwaukee Public School system is regularly found to be failing its black students as their failure and dropout rate is atrocious. Now there are many here who could point to any number of factors, etc. but the PERCEPTION is that Milwaukee, at its core, does not embrace its African-American residents.

Others could likely point to articles from the Journal-Sentinel as further justification for my claim. Frankly, I thought this was common knowledge.

What's the population cut off to make this list? I know Pana and Anna, IL are too small but what about Pekin?

Indianapolis isn't even Indiana top ten. Sure it has had some of the more visible stuff (like the Realtors threatening to revoke the license of anyone selling homes to black families outside of the red-line areas) but Indiana has some far worse places and an 'impressive' number of Sundown Towns.

Trader:

Well, I only visit, but I think the obvious segregation of the bulk of the black community to "Over the Rhine" is the first "tell" that there is a problem.

Like I wrote above there are many issues involved. But I perceive Cincinnati as having accepted the Asian population, the Latino population, the Indian (yes, I know they are technically "Asian" as well), and just about every other form of racial influx to the city.

Not the African-Americans. And it is palpable.

It's not like other cities along the Mason-Dixie line, but it is present.

Interestingly, in my travels I have found that the cities that I perceive as being "racist" are located along the horizontal center of the U.S. versus the Deep South.

Except Texas of course. There if you are black, step back.

I think Durham, NC has to be among the most racist cities in the US; it has got to be in the top 10. Just this year a DA, egged on by the african-american community, charged 3 people with a crime of rape and assault, and only a court and a higher authority were able to stop the assault on civil liberties, the end result of which was that the DA was disbarred. This happened in 2007.

See what he did there? The old switcheroo.

Trader,

In case you are not familiar with the alphabet, my 'basis for that claim' is because Cincinnati begins with the letter C. Albuquerque is number one because it begins with the letter A. For reference, see Sesame Street.

Schlesinger said there were a few reasons for the increase. "There's no substitute to having three prominent African-American players on your team, given baseball's struggles in that regard," Schlesinger said.

I don't know of any hard data to prove this observation, but in my personal experience of attending NBA games (mostly in Sacramento, occassionally in Oakland) and MLB games (in Oakland), the MLB crowds are far more racially diverse, far less white. (Just to compare apples with apples, A's crowds have a much higher percentage of black fans than Warriors' games do.) I don't know why that is, but I suspect it is somewhat economic. That is, it's damn expensive to go to an NBA game; it's still relatively cheap to go to a major league baseball game. Also, at A's games, I very often will see an entire section filled up with Little Leaguers from Oakland or nearby East Bay cities. Non-white kids make up a large percentage of those youth groups. I've never seen anything like that at an NBA game, where even nosebleed seats (in Sacramento) cost $40 or more.

The reason I point out the disparity in MLB and NBA audience diversity at the games is because I doubt the reason some African-Americans don't attend the games of their local teams is because of the numbers of black players on the team. The NBA teams have much higher numbers of black players, with a smaller share of black audience. Because I am not black, I cannot speak to the question of whether the numbers of black players on my team matters to me. But I would think the more important question is whether the players my team has selected to play are picked because they were the best available options, regardless of racial or ethnic background. As a Jew, I don't care if there are any Jewish players on my team. It's cool to me when some Jewish dude is a good ballplayer. But that's about as far as it goes. I would guess Italian-Americans or Swedish-Americans feel the same when there is a player of their same heritage doing well.

Anyone unfamiliar with the history of race relations in Milwaukee should look up the name of Father James Groppi,

And now he has a bridge next a casino and some sort of factory

I understand that I appear to be equating "racism" with "hostility only toward African-Americans". I just haven't witnessed the same level of hostility toward Koreans or Chinese or Indians or Pakistanis or Latinos that I have observed with respect to African-Americans.

I have my Wisconsinites treat Hmong like garbage. I have seen folks in Texas treat Hispanics like garbage. I have seen folks in the upper Plain states treat native-Americans like garbage. But for the broad brush it's African-Americans hands down.

But again, that's just my history. I am sure others have different experiences.

On a city-wide scale the relations between the black community and local law enforcement is abysmal. The Milwaukee Public School system is regularly found to be failing its black students as their failure and dropout rate is atrocious. Now there are many here who could point to any number of factors, etc. but the PERCEPTION is that Milwaukee, at its core, does not embrace its African-American residents.

Unfortunately, this probably describes nearly every major city in the U.S.

I have my Wisconsinites treat Hmong like garbage.

Why do you have them do that, Harvey, why?

I want everyone to know that I have my Wisconsinites treat Hmong people like warriors of the Mekong. However, I was a bit disappointed when my Wisconsinites failed to show up at the rally in Sacramento to protest the arrest of the Hmong 10, who were trying to overthrow the Laotian government last month.

Why do you have them do that, Harvey, why?

:)


I would guess Italian-Americans or Swedish-Americans feel the same when there is a player of their same heritage doing well.



I'm one quarter Swede, so I'm proud of the way this guy swings the wood.

It is always amusing to see "what besides the riots makes you think we have problems"

Anyway I'm a bit shocked that Philadelphia hasn't been mentioned yet.

As for Milwaukee I think the Milwaukee metro area in general has race problems. Racine doesn't like their blacks anymore then does Milwaukee, and Kenosha doesn't want them either. With both towns tolerating latinos.

My ex-girlfriend is from Cincinnati. Before we'd go visit her family she would issue a blanket apology for any racist comments or jokes made by them, their friends or neighbors. And it was that bad. The saddest part was that strangers would make racist comments and jokes to me, assuming that I'd laugh along or agree because I'm white. This seemed like an indication of the pervasiveness of racist thought.

My mistake. I meant to write "I have seen...."

Sigh. I really need to stop getting old.

I want everyone to know that I have my Wisconsinites tream Hmong like warriors of the Mekong.

I have my Hmong hunt down redneck hunters with AK-47's.

Dingbat,

Sample size. I lived there 25 years and didn't encounter that attitude very often. It happened, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it's also happned to me in San Francisco, for example.

Indianapolis isn't even Indiana top ten. Sure it has had some of the more visible stuff (like the Realtors threatening to revoke the license of anyone selling homes to black families outside of the red-line areas) but Indiana has some far worse places and an 'impressive' number of Sundown Towns.

Quite true. I grew up in small town in NW Indiana - my school system had exactly 2 African-American students during my 12 years in the system. Both were absolutely and without-a-doubt "driven" out of town. I consider it something of a moral failing on my part that while I didn't join in any harassment, I certainly never said anything or any way stood up to classmates and even teachers that most certainly did do the harrassing. This wasn't 60 years ago -- it was less than 20.

The only thing I'll say about the Nifong case --I think it's telling that this particular (attempted) miscarriage of justice became such a national cause celebre. I can't find the quote -- but I was immensely impressed with one of the Duke players who said about the ordeal {paraphrasing}: If it can happen to me - and only the support of my well-off family could get me cleared of a crime I didn't commit, you really have to wonder what chance someone that doesn't have my support system has.

It would have been quite easy and maybe on some level even justified for the kid to jump on the Limbaugh bandwagon of using an anecdote as precedent to prove 'old school racism' is long gone and our biggest concern should now be 'reverse racism' --- but very much to the kid's credit, he saw it for what it was. A complete miscarriage of justice that hit him personally - but by no means the only miscarriage of justice we see in America.

Milwaukee may not be the most racist city, but it is one of the most segregated. On the north side between about Booth and 45th (a span of 50 or so blocks) you are not likely to see many white people out and about. Conversely, on the south side until recently, black people were still so rare as to be remarked upon when I would be walking somewhere with black friends.

The city/county is very weird. On the North Side, it is majority black, on the near South Side, it is majority Latino (mexican specifically) and all around that is a ring of white people. The city recently joined many other steel belt cities in being majority minority. However, there are signs of some urban renewal and some younger/hipper white people appear to be trying to reverse the white flight that is prevalent. That said, when those people have kids, they'll probably leave too, because MPS is absolutely a toilet with the exception of a couple schools (I say that as a "proud" graduate).

Shooty, if I were part Scandanavian, I too would be proud of the way the Swedish Chef swings his chopper. However, pride is not exactly the feeling I got when I found out this famous wood swinger is a Member of the Tribe.

I really do have to wonder about the supposedly undeniable decay of inner city schools -- I'm not saying they're Andover or anything, but there was a recent report here in Illinois that the old cliche that "kids attending Chicago public schools fall further behind the longer they're in the system" isn't true. In fact, the test score gap (not that I'm saying test scores are the be all and end all of school performance) actually shrinks as students progress through CPS.

Of course, like any number - I'm sure there might be other reasons (drop-outs who were formerly lowering the average leaving in later years, etc), but I'm always suspicious of blanket statements about school systems.

Oh, and Rich, I obviously mis-read your rankings post on the first go round.

I think one reason Milwaukee's racism persists is that its minority population is relatively small compared to the population as a whole, and compared to minority contingents in other large cities. Because of this, the minority population is not able to gain any kind of economic or political foothold to effect meaningful change. Except for one ultimately disastrous interim term, Milwaukee has never come close to having a black mayor, while almost every major city in the country has. Let's face it - in most cases racial progress is not made solely because the majority population suddenly got a conscience. Progress is made because real political contingencies have to be listened to.

but I'm always suspicious of blanket statements about school systems.

you shouldn't be in Milwaukee's case. The budget is not nearly enough to keep standards high, schools are closing left and right, they can't fill staff holes, the magnet schools class sizes have increased from 20 to 35 or so just in the last couple years, they had to seek private sponsorship to keep the arts high school open, "school choice" and charter schools are siphoning even more of MPS's inadequate funds away, the leadership is incompetent, etc. Rumors around Milwaukee are that MPS will be insolvent within a couple years. I think that is overblown somewhat because free education is required by law so they'll have to find some way to keep MPS going, but the problems are very real and very serious.

That said, MPS still has one crown jewel, the best public High School in the state (which is saying something in Wisconsin, which is usually near the top in SAT & ACT scores, iirc), Rufus King. If only they could figure out someway to make the rest of the system more like King, they would be in business.

I think one reason Milwaukee's racism persists is that its minority population is relatively small compared to the population as a whole

This isn't true. Milwaukee is majority minority.

It is also very true that in Milwaukee's case there is a "power structure" which built its foundation on the existence of racial strife. And it ain't "Whitey" exploiting the situation. Not uncommon but still highly disappointing and disturbing.

whoa, nice job bfan. The blacks are indeed subjugating the whites in Durham, and it gets worse every year. I hear Duke is going to get shut down by the mayor unless it moves to Fuquay-Varina so that NC Central can take over its campus. Wait a minute, could it be that Nifong was engaging in an isolated instance of transparent election-year pandering which completely backfired? That seems more likely.

Except for one ultimately disastrous interim term, Milwaukee has never come close to having a black mayor, while almost every major city in the country has.

Since I'm having a Royko morning, this just reminded of one of Mike's best columns after Harold Washington was elected Chicago's first black mayor:

It starts...

So I told Uncle Chester: Don't worry, Harold Washington doesn't want to marry your sister.

Shooty, if I were part Scandanavian, I too would be proud of the way the Swedish Chef swings his chopper. However, pride is not exactly the feeling I got when I found out this famous wood swinger is a Member of the Tribe.

Rich, I think pride is a better feeling to have about that swinging wood than some other emotions I can think of.

It is also very true that in Milwaukee's case there is a "power structure" which built its foundation on the existence of racial strife

you wouldn't by any chance be referring to the McGee family, would you? ;)

This isn't true. Milwaukee is majority minority.

Well, OK, but it's obviously too diffuse and economically disadvantaged to mount any kind of a challenge. Maybe some day.

I think one reason Milwaukee's racism persists is that its minority population is relatively small compared to the population as a whole, and compared to minority contingents in other large cities. Because of this, the minority population is not able to gain any kind of economic or political foothold to effect meaningful change. Except for one ultimately disastrous interim term, Milwaukee has never come close to having a black mayor, while almost every major city in the country has.

Tell this to the people of Detroit.

Joe:

There are many examples unfortunately. Shaking down your constituents telling them that the only way to get things done is to ante up with cash they use to try and take care of their families. Beyond scum.

One of the downsides of being civilized is that when the situation arises proper punishment isn't an option. The rack. Being quartered by draft horses. Dragged through the streets. All gone away.

Sigh................................

Wait a minute, could it be that Nifong was engaging in an isolated instance of transparent election-year pandering which completely backfired? That seems more likely.


No, he was egged on by the "black community." All minorities speak in one voice. It's like a Greek Chorus.

Similarly, all minorities are responsible for the actions of others within their ethnic group. This is why it's really important that we remember, and be sure to note at every opportunity, the deer hunter murderer was Hmong.

See Harvey, that's how we in Chicago have become so racially enlightened. Da Mare' now makes sure that the graft is equally distributed to corrupt beaurocrats and hangers on of all races and ethnicities. This way, despite the persistence of neatly color coded neighborhoods -- black, white, hispanic, you name it - we all get a taste of being real Chicagoans.

That's what Milwaukee needs -- a colorblind system of shakedowns and graft.

Anyone unfamiliar with the history of race relations in Milwaukee should look up the name of Father James Groppi, a fascinating, courageous man.

Indeed. That race riot on the 16th street viaduct is riveting. Apparently the white people of the South Side physically repelled what they saw as a black invasion. I'm surprised no one has written an in-depth book about him and the civil rights movement in Milwaukee (at least, I haven't found one). Writing one is one of my goals.

At various times it has been described as one of the more “racist” cities in the nation.

I've never been to Milwaukee and basically know nothing about it, but this is the first time I've ever heard this. What is the basis of this description?

I believe this is a quotation from The Collected Works of Gary Sheffield.

Milwaukee is indeed sometimes ranked the most segregated city in America. It varies a little depending on whether they're counting cities or metro regions and whether they are counting solely segregation of blacks or of all non-whites, but Milwaukee is in the top 3 by all the measures I've seen.

Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Saint Louis, Gary, Chicago are always up there. Cincinnati varies from about #9 to about #18. In all, it reinforces Harry's point that the most segregated cities are in the middle, especially the old industrial cities on the Great Lakes.

Segregation and overall levels of racism aren't necessarily the same thing--Charleston, S.C. has often been ranked the least segregated city by residence but is not known for color-blind attitudes--but it is interesting.

Some lists are at:
http://www.detnews.com/specialreports/2002/segregation/b03-390169.htm

http://www.cincypost.com/2002/11/30/census113002.html

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2002/12/16/story3.html

Polish:

Ha!!

Gary thinks he has been discriminated against when his kids hot chocolate at Starbucks is served with a topping of cool whip. Gary doesn't want nothing to do with "white" anything.

So far I see nothing in this thread that, while it may be true in Milwaukee, isn't also true in St Louis, Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York -- to name the cities where I've lived. Hong Kong of course has no racial problems of any kind...

See Harvey, that's how we in Chicago have become so racially enlightened.

In LA, we are way ahead of the curve in integrating Latinos into the exciting growth industry of political scandal. link

Ivan:

Well, I have only visited various cities. I have lived in Wisconsin most of my life with the exceptions being times I was stationed at a military base either in the U.S. or abroad.

But when I did travel I travelled a LOT. For the cities you name I would say during my lifetime the atmosphere in NY is better, in San Fran much better, in LA it is better. St. Louis and Milwaukee? Not so much.

I would love to 'defend' cities in the Midwest. But they haven't been forced to adopt like their coastal counterparts. Which ultimately is the reason such attitudes are allowed to persist. When literally every other person you see on the street is of a distinctly different pigmentation you will waste a lot of energy and time being "discriminatory". Most folks are too d*mn lazy.

That and kids being tossed together. It's trite but true. If they grow up with one another it becomes a non-issue.

I work in Durham. It is far less racist here than it was in the Chicago suburbs, where I grew up. Now if you go about 40 miles in any direction from here, it's a different story.

I've always found the southern Illinois/Indiana/Ohio and northern Kentucky/West Virginia area to be very sketchy for anyone not white and Christian.

Gary doesn't want nothing to do with "white" anything.

Is that why he hits that little white ball so damn hard?

I really need to stop getting old.

Consider the alternative.

Of course, we all know that your dearest wish is to hold on long enough to attend Sheffield's induction into the Hall of Fame.

The Brewers have an ongoing arrangement with WMCS-AM, a predominantly African-American radio station,

What kind of arrangement? Do they get radio rights?

I think the Royals do a less than stellar job of reaching out to ethnic groups (although they seem fully willing to reach out to Christian groups), which is really sad considering our city's great history in Negro League baseball. They do a good job integrating Negro League history into the ballpark and games, but its still odd to see a face full of white people all wearing a Kansas City Monarchs cap. And it really struck me how few African Americans are on the team when we played the Brewers. Additionally, the Royals have to be one of the few franchises in baseball without a Spanish language affiliate (don't most teams have this?) despite a growing Hispanic population.

What more can teams do to reach out to minority groups?

Srul:

Hey, thanks. Now I have this painful throbbing in my head. Much obliged.

<think happy Harvey....happy thoughts......happy thoughts....>

Alex:

KC is really missing the boat if they aren't marketing to Latinos. Speaking from experience and yes making some generalizations:

--they do things as families. meaning if you get a family you get plural.
--they have kids. Lots of kids.
--they LIKE baseball
--they are passionate fans

That's about as tasty a combination as you can find. Sure right now as a group the socioeconomics aren't in their favor for coming to the games as much as a team would like or buying the best seats. But in 10-20 years? Different story.

They are the fastest growing "minority" in the country. It's foolish to not appeal to this segment of the potential audience.

But when I did travel I travelled a LOT. For the cities you name I would say during my lifetime the atmosphere in NY is better, in San Fran much better, in LA it is better. St. Louis and Milwaukee? Not so much.

It sounds like most of these types of assessments in this thread are based on personal experience rather than measurable criteria (ironic eh?). I personally did not find much difference in inter-racial hostility among people in these various cities. It may be different as a visitor than as a resident. I think as a resident we are more exposed to warts. There are of course cultural differences between these four cities that affect racial relations, but I don't think any of the four were "better" or "worse" for racial harmony. Also the culture and racial attitudes have changed over the years.

I would love to 'defend' cities in the Midwest. But they haven't been forced to adopt like their coastal counterparts. Which ultimately is the reason such attitudes are allowed to persist

MY own experience would lead me to say the opposite. I found to the coasts especially the East Coast to have a rather srong old school hate for blacks. At least in the metro areas.

It happened, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it's also happned to me in San Francisco, for example.

San Francisco's not perfect, but it's better. I think the city has some segregation issues, but they are economic more than anything else. Even parts which are considered areas of one race or another usually have some sort of minority community in them - there's a lot of Samoans, Chinese and Mexicans in the Bayview, and there's still plenty of Irish in the Sunset. Chinatown being an obvious exception to this, but that neighborhood's about twelve square blocks.

This isn't true. Milwaukee is majority minority.

I had absolutely no clue of this. How long has this been the case?

Robert in Redondo (#50): I'm not sure I'd call the Villaraigosa situation being "way ahead of the curve." Go look up San Antonio, and in particular, Henry Cisneros. How many years ago was that?

Of course, part of the story in Los Angeles is the dismal state of public institutions generally identified as "belonging" to the African-American community, such as the City of Compton or King-Drew, oops King-Harbor hospital. (And the neighborhoods many of those institutions are in may now be majority Latino, anyway.)

What's the population cut off to make this list? I know Pana and Anna, IL are too small but what about Pekin?

Funny you should mention Pekin. My ex wife and I were eating at a restaurant in Ottawa, IL a number of years ago when we struck up a conversation with our rather young (20-ish) server. Server had a pleasant enough personality, very gregarious, not obviously stupid. When it came time to pay, we learned that the place didn't take plastic, at which point my ex admonished me for not having brought any cash. The server piped up, "Oh, I don't carry cash either--but then again, that's just a habit, since I'm from Peoria. Well, Pekin." Confused, I asked, "What--is Peoria a scary place?" She responds by going into a whisper and a sort of nudge-nudge facial expression: "No--[whispers]...I just don't like black people." My ex and I just sort of looked at each other with our mouths half open. My ex asked--"Did you just say what I thought you said--why would you assume we wouldn't be offended by that?" Obviously shocked we reacted that way, server blubbers...."Oh, I didn't mean it THAT way..." Apologizes profusely, but obviously it wasn't enough to save her from an "insult tip."

Anyway, if this server's any representation, Pekin's the sort of place where you just assume other white folk share your 19th century views on race (yes, sample size caveats apply). (The restaurant was called The Row House. We forever after referred to it as The Jim Crow House.)

And I have to say, as long as Milwaukee's segregation/race issues are being discussed, and since some refer to Milwaukee as a "mini-Chicago"--much though I love Chicago, the segregation of probably 90 percent (if not more) of the city's African American population from, well, virtually all of the city's other ethnic groups is something I find kind of distressing.

Hell--I live in one of the country's most diverse neighborhoods,at least according to the linked source, where living costs are reasonable (at least, until the white yuppie scum completely take over, which sadly seems inevitable at some point), but even here there are very few African Americans. Almost all the black people in my neighborhood are first-generation African immigrants (Nigeria, Sudan and north Africa, mostly). The variety of immigrant populations that have settled here and become self-sustaining (if often insular) is huge (which the city rightfully likes to tout), but Chicago's African American population, by and large, seems to have been left behind. (And yes, there are a handful of African American neighborhoods in Chicago that are quite nice, but they're the exception.)

This thread is like Milwaukee. Bigger than average, but not that big, with a slight boom in the middle before tailing off; a few interesting spots but nothing particularly memorable; and a bunch of white people. And perhaps one serial killer abetted by inattentive authorities.

Anyway, if this server's any representation, Pekin's the sort of place where you just assume other white folk share your 19th century views on race (yes, sample size caveats apply).

It's state head of the KKK.

Ten years ago (well ten years and a month, now), I went to school in central Illinois. Pekin had a nasty racist reputation there. Two guys from my freshman dorm were from there. They definately grew up in a place where people can sit around telling N***** jokes in the open. Until 1980 the high school was called the Pekin Chinks. They changed it (over considerable local protest) because they couldn't get a qualified person to run the school district otherwise). Now it's called the Pekin Dragons, both a Chinese allusion as well as a Klan reference. You'd ask the guys from the college about their town and they'd say, yea, it needs work on race and that's a shame but I tella, we got no blacks, but we also got no gangs, or drug problems or . . .

I have a friend who tells me a story. A couple hears ago he knew a black guy who went into a gas station in Pekin just off the highway to get gas. Some whites saw him and chased him out, and drove after him in their cars until he was out of city limits. Third-hand story admittedly, but I know him well enough to believe him and he's adament that this story happened.

A few years ago I was in a Jiffy Lube and this white girl behind the counter was talking to a friend. Counter girl and a black male friend were in Pekin for whatever reason. People were openly staring/glaring at them as they walked down the street together. "Such a sad little town" she concluded.

It ain't funny that I mention Pekin. There's a lot of stories like this about Pekin. Makes Fast Eddie's old stomping grounds look like the Rainbow Coalition.

Ever have any lynchings in Pekin?

Is Matthew Hale from Pekin? I know he's from downstate somewhere.

Dag Nabbit, that's crazy stuff. I didn't doubt it was a racist town (and like I said, my one encounter with a Pekinite confirmed it), but man. (I'd actually heard that bit about the Pekin Chinks from someplace, but had forgotten it. Unbelieveable.)

There is a point when one travels south in Illinois that you really are entering the deep south, culturally speaking.

And perhaps one serial killer abetted by inattentive authorities.

A serial killer who, it should be pointed out, preyed primarily (exclusively?) on one of the city's minority ethnic groups.

Indianapolis isn't even Indiana top ten. Sure it has had some of the more visible stuff (like the Realtors threatening to revoke the license of anyone selling homes to black families outside of the red-line areas) but Indiana has some far worse places and an 'impressive' number of Sundown Towns.

Indiana has a Big 1, then a huge drop off to No. 2. Martinsville is without question Indiana's most racist city, and would certainly vie for the title nationwide. It is a deplorable community, and generally looked down upon by every other municipality in the state.

I've lived in two smaller Indiana towns with sketchy pasts. While I don't know how one is now (by the way Zonk, where in NW Indiana did you grow up?), the other actually saw considerable integration in the time I was there (of both African-Americans and Latinos), without any publicly reported incidents. From what I could see, the reputation exceeded the actual present-day conditions.

A serial killer who, it should be pointed out, preyed primarily (exclusively?) on one of the city's minority ethnic groups.

Well, yeah. That was implicit in my point. Most of his victims were black, but the one that brought the police out was a 14-year-old Cambodian boy the cops made "lovers' quarrel" jokes about. However, Dahmer reportedly didn't pick his victims by race; they just happened to be who was available in his neighborhood. The fact that he was able to elude detection for as long as he did is almost certainly due to the cops' indifference to both the minority and gay communities, though.

However, Dahmer reportedly didn't pick his victims by race; they just happened to be who was available in his neighborhood.

He primarily grabbed people from gay bars, adult bookstores... that sort of thing. There were some adult bookstores in the neighborhood area, but the bars of that sort actually were a ways away.
(Some of the victims from grabbed from bars in the gay bar area that was near Walker's Point - and everyone who went to Walker's Point back then knew where THAT was - which isn't real close to where Dahmer lived, although it wasn't too far from where he worked)

There is a point when one travels south in Illinois that you really are entering the deep south, culturally speaking.

Not that far south. Ask Bernie Epton. I know one woman trained to work as an ambulance driver in Dwight, IL in the mid-1980s. A law enforcement official (dunno if it was county or city) went with her on her intro period. One day he said - see that? That's an NCIC. Always report those in. Her: What's an NCIC. Him: New Coon in County. So he got on the radio and reported there was a black guy looked like he was dropping off a letter and leaving, shouldn't be any problem . .

In Pana blacks couldn't get gas until . . . mid-1980s? . .

Really want to hear about the south? Ask about Cairo in the late 1960s early 1970s. Blacks arrested for attending a local roller rink. Only whites could use it. They shut down Little League rather than intergrate. Ditto the town's pools. A black soldier home on leave was pulled over in his car, taken in by the PD for the night. That night he died, they said it was suicide. They refused to do an autopsy and immediately had it emballed to prevent an autopsy. WHen his family got the body back it looked like he'd been beaten up really badly.

A riot broke out. And the Cairo civil rights movement was born. They boycotted local businesses unless they agreed to hire blacks. They didn't. After a year it was still going on and some business failing.

A white reverend beat a black man in his 70s to death. At the inquist, he said the black man had slept with his wife. He offered no evidence. His story was accepted and no charges filed. He went on to found a private school in town on explicitly segregationist grounds.

Whites formed a ground called the white hats that had quasi-legal authority. They'd shoot into the black neighborhoods at night. More to terrorize than to kill, but they also broke up meetings shooting at them. There were times blacks would literally get on the phone to Lt Gov Paul Simon while under gun fire so he would send down state troopers against local whites ASAP. Some black businesses were torched. This went on for years.

Whites started to make raids confiscating guns in black homes. Because blacks owned guns. Finally it all ended up in the courts, but around 1970-1, Cairo was a hotbed for civil rights hostilities. Physically and socially it's closer to the Mississippi Delta than to Lake Michigan.

Ever have any lynchings in Pekin?

Nah. I would know about it if it had. The KKK did own the town's only newspaper for a brief spell in the 1920s though.

OK, so Milwaukee's not that bad. I know you would know about the lynchings; that's why I asked. I miss your TDIHes, although I know once you've seen them, a whole lot doesn't change from year to year.

Actual text of a sign at the Pekin city limits:
"######, Don't Let the Sun Set On You Here."

There's a book about an 1869 lynching in Pekin that I don't believe was racially motivated. I'd be surprised though if that was the only one that took place there.

Except Texas of course. There if you are black, step back.

Uh, what? Now, I'm obviously not disputing what may have happened before I was cognizant. But black people are not treated more poorly in Texas than they are in Lousiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, and Arkansas, just to name a few.

I have seen folks in Texas treat Hispanics like garbage.

Well, sure. It's not excusable, but there are more Hispanics here than anywhere besides California. Right or wrong (I think decidedly wrong) there are many people here with concerns about the influx. Some of those people aren't able to articulate their concerns in any constructive way. Some are just racists.

But it sickens me that people here just take at face value that my state is full of a bunch of ignorant redneck racists. I was born in Louisiana, and my entire extended family is still there. That state is way, way more racist than Texas, and I never, ever hear it mentioned.

There is a point when one travels south in Illinois that you really are entering the deep south, culturally speaking.

Ever been to Danville? Eesh!

Having concerns over the economic effects of a demographic shift isn't being racist--it can lead to racism, but it need not and often (well, sometimes, anyway) doesn't.

And for goodness's sake, recognizing that there is racism in this country against white people (often practiced by other white people, I might add) does nothing at all to dismiss racism that occurs against various minority groups. I'm quite certain that members of every race have been racist against members of every other race.

As a corollary, the fact that a city's neighborhoods tend to be racially segregated can't be neatly explained by white-on-black racism. That can be a factor, as can a desire by some blacks to live in black neighborhoods. A bigger factor than either of those is economics. It's often said, of course, that the tendency of blacks to be poorer is a symptom of racism, and that's partly true. But another part of it is historical inertia. It is very hard for a family to escape from the cycle of poverty, regardless of race. The rural south and midwest show numerous examples of white families who have been locked in its chains for generations. Indeed, the assult on social programs through the '80s and '90s was largely the result of racism--of racist middle-class and higher whites who assume that all poor people are black.

The only thing I'll say about the Nifong case --I think it's telling that this particular (attempted) miscarriage of justice became such a national cause celebre. I can't find the quote -- but I was immensely impressed with one of the Duke players who said about the ordeal {paraphrasing}: If it can happen to me - and only the support of my well-off family could get me cleared of a crime I didn't commit, you really have to wonder what chance someone that doesn't have my support system has.

I'm not certain, but I believe David Evans said this on 60 minutes.

Actual text of a sign at the Pekin city limits:
"######, Don't Let the Sun Set On You Here."

According to James Loewen, the man who literally wrote the book on sundown towns, there were likely about 400 towns with signs like that in Illinois. I know/knew one person who had family in Ashland, IL. They had a sign like that up until the 1980s. Pekin was the largest sundown town in Illinois

There's a book about an 1869 lynching in Pekin that I don't believe was racially motivated. I'd be surprised though if that was the only one that took place there.

I stand corrected. My list only went from 1889-onward. That's what I get for assuming there wasn't one earlier.

Do you know the name of the book on the Pekin lynching?

As a corollary, the fact that a city's neighborhoods tend to be racially segregated can't be neatly explained by white-on-black racism. That can be a factor, as can a desire by some blacks to live in black neighborhoods.

Yup, there's more to it than racism. But what happens when they try to move out of those neighborhoods? I know something about the Chicago story, and it isn't a pretty one. You can see the footage of when MLK came to Chicago in Eyes on the Prize and I'm old enough to remember 1983.

It's often said, of course, that the tendency of blacks to be poorer is a symptom of racism, and that's partly true. But another part of it is historical inertia.

Yea, but that can be flipped around again back. Poor because of inerita not racism, but why were so many poor in the first place? 'Cuz race served as a social organizer for this nation.

I just haven't witnessed the same level of hostility toward Koreans or Chinese

That's because you've never been to Korea nor China.

Having concerns over the economic effects of a demographic shift isn't being racist--it can lead to racism, but it need not and often (well, sometimes, anyway) doesn't.

Of course it isn't. Especially when those concerns are over illegal immigration. It doesn't excuse the behavior Harveys has surely seen, nor does it excuse any of the behavior that I've seen. However, to say that "I've seen Texans be rude to Mexicans" (to trivialize his point) belies the fact that Texans deal with more Mexicans than anyone besides Californians.

'Cuz race served as a social organizer for this nation.

Of course it did. I'm just talking about the way things are now. The historical inertia as a contributor to current society doesn't need conceptual attachment to what caused it in the first place. And to make that connection might be deleterious for people who can't handle complex historical concepts (most of them, alas), because the "aha--they are poor because they're black" reactions that will come of it simply lead back to the assumption that black and poor are synonymous, which hurts both blacks and whites.

Ever been to Danville? Eesh!

Yes. Eesh, indeed. And Danville's not even that far south.

Yes. Eesh, indeed. And Danville's not even that far south.

Danville, to me, was always the point where The South started. . . a queer mix of old, decaying factories, a closed Air Force base, rampant redneckism, and a state prison. Good times for all involved!

Not that those things represent The South. . . but I saw more f*cked up teeth and grade-A rednecks during 6 weeks in Danville than I did when visiting colleges over an entire summer in TN, VA, and NC.

Is being a redneck synonymous to being racist? I'm sure there are lots of Southerners with red necks, guns, beer, and pickup trucks that are pleasant to Minorities and are racially sensitive.

Some people do their best to fit 'em, but stereotypes are never a good basis by which to judge the individual.

You can miss getting to know some truly great people that way.

Is being a redneck synonymous to being racist?

No.