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Friday, May 09, 2008

Bronx Banter: Markusen: Roy White: The Forgotten Yankee

Or as Alex Belth (see you at 6, Al!) sez in the comments..."I will never take a program like Yankeeography seriously until they do shows on Yankees like Roy White.”

As overlooked as White was for most of his career, the view of his worth as a player has undergone a stark revision. Historians and analysts now recognize him as one of the finer multi-talented players of the 1970s. Durable and dependable, he featured speed (stealing an average of over 15 bases a season over a 15-year career), a modicum of power (160 home runs, including a high of 22 in 1970), and an excellent glove in left field, skilled enough to handle the challenging dimensions of Death Valley of Yankee Stadium. White also fared well in the postseason, particularly in League Championship Series play. No less an authority than Bill James (who is ironically now a Boston Red Sox employee) has become one of White’s biggest champions, going so far as to claim that White was a better ballplayer than his Red Sox’ left field counterpart, Jim Rice. That’s especially noteworthy given that Rice undergoes an annual dalliance with the BBWAA, which has come within a whisker of electing him to the Hall of Fame. Rice is expected to win election next January, while White fell off the writers’ ballot after one inglorious campaign in 1985. White received no votes (while far lesser players like Don Kessinger and Jesus Alou garnered two and one, respectively), thereby dropping off the ballot immediately.

Repoz Posted: May 09, 2008 at 01:46 PM | 24 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralHistoryHall of FameNY Yankees

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   1. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: May 09, 2008 at 02:15 PM (#2774778)
Nice piece. He had a weak arm but I don't think he was run on quite as much as Bernie and Johnny Damon. He had a quick release, charged the ball well and always threw to the right base. His assist totals are pretty good. He had excellent range into the early 70's and had one year with no errors.

My recollection is that he was one of the first good players to play in Japan.

He has a charitable foundation: Roy White Foundation
   2. whoisalhedges Posted: May 09, 2008 at 02:23 PM (#2774790)
My recollection is that he was one of the first good players to play in Japan.

One of the first good gaijin players, anyway... I imagine that Sadaharu Oh fellow was decent.
   3. RB in NYC (Now with a Training Schedule!) Posted: May 09, 2008 at 02:24 PM (#2774794)
My father's favorite player of all-time. I got him an autographed Roy White picture for...something (Father's Day, maybe) a few years ago.
   4. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: May 09, 2008 at 02:33 PM (#2774803)
My father's favorite player of all-time. I got him an autographed Roy White picture for...something (Father's Day, maybe) a few years ago.

Mine, too. My father raised me by illustrating and contrasting the virtues of being Roy White against the vices of being Reggie Jackson.

I used to mimic White's batting stance all the time as a kid. But it was easy for me because I was pigeon-toed.

Really nice piece, Bruce.
   5. Free Joe C and the Pop Culture Portmanteau Posted: May 09, 2008 at 03:02 PM (#2774836)
Something something Jim Rice.
   6. No obvious clever handle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: May 09, 2008 at 03:06 PM (#2774842)
My first time ever in Yankee Stadium...1973, 8 years old. Yankees-Angels. In a game that featured appearances by Frank Robinson, Bobby Murcer, Bergen County native Richie Scheinblum and Jeff Torborg, the thing that reeeeeeaaaaalystood out for me was Roy White's 2-homer day...
   7. Blackadder Posted: May 09, 2008 at 03:11 PM (#2774847)
Re 5, can anyone think of a case where a single writer has played a larger role in the discourse about one player than Bill James on Roy White? Everytime I see his name, the first thing that pops into my mind is "better than Jim Rice!" There probably are some examples, I just can't think of them...
   8. Edmundo, more Jules than Jim Posted: May 09, 2008 at 03:17 PM (#2774855)
Re 5, can anyone think of a case where a single writer has played a larger role in the discourse about one player than Bill James
Jesus Melendez?
   9. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: May 09, 2008 at 03:19 PM (#2774859)
Re 5, can anyone think of a case where a single writer has played a larger role in the discourse about one player than Bill James on Roy White? Everytime I see his name, the first thing that pops into my mind is "better than Jim Rice!" There probably are some examples, I just can't think of them...

Craig Wright on Joe Morgan
   10. Smittywernerjaegermanjensen Posted: May 09, 2008 at 03:25 PM (#2774868)
No mention that Roy was a switch hitter. I would think that was an important feature of White's game that it should be mentioned in an article.

Trivia question: (easy one?) what was White's uniform number while on the Yankees?
   11. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: May 09, 2008 at 03:31 PM (#2774873)
Trivia question: (easy one?) what was White's uniform number while on the Yankees?


I'm not particularly good remembering numbers, but White's is an easy one to me.
   12. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: May 09, 2008 at 03:43 PM (#2774887)
I bet the Yankees retire it.
   13. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: May 09, 2008 at 03:54 PM (#2774900)
The quality of the Yankees' hitters has absolutely nothing to do with the park factor. It would only have an effect if the gap between their home and road performance was bigger than the gap between the team's pitchers' home and road performance.
   14. Smittywernerjaegermanjensen Posted: May 09, 2008 at 03:55 PM (#2774901)
Billy Martin didn't appreciate White. Billy benched Roy who was one of the few Yankees with a good OB %. Seemed like they all had OB around .300. Roy's OB was usually around .350 as Bruce says.

Billy didn't like Larry Gura because he was seen wearing tennis white's. Billy was an idiot.
   15. Steve Treder Posted: May 09, 2008 at 04:32 PM (#2774942)
My recollection is that he was one of the first good players to play in Japan.


One of the first good gaijin players, anyway...

Obviously it depends on our definition of "good," and by the time they went to Japan all these guys were over the hill (including White), but in the 1960s the following players went to play in Japan:

- Don Newcombe
- Larry Doby
- Don Zimmer
- Don Blasingame
- Willie Kirkland
- George Altman
- Dick Stuart

And undoubtedly more who I'm forgetting. White wasn't anything close to the first.
   16. Rich Posted: May 09, 2008 at 04:41 PM (#2774951)
Watching White as a kid when the focus was more on AVG than OBP. White never hit .300 for a full season, but he was occasionally over it for large portions of several seasons. I remember a time when he superstitiously wore a Micky Mouse for t-shirt every game, engaging in the suspension of disbelief that it might help finish at .300, but to no avail.
   17. schuey Posted: May 09, 2008 at 08:04 PM (#2775110)
Steve Treder is right..there were a bunch of good gaijin players in Japan before White, But was White the first on the Yomuri Giants? My vague memory is they waited awhile before signing one but I don't know if it was White.
I don't think White was even mentioned in the book on the late 1970s Yankees Roger Kahn wrote a few years ago.
White did have the good fortune to stay with the Yankees long enough to win a championship. Many other "Stars of the CBS ownership years" such as Bobby Murcer, Horace Clarke and Fritz Peterson got traded away before then.
   18. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 09, 2008 at 09:01 PM (#2775230)
But was White the first on the Yomuri Giants? My vague memory is they waited awhile before signing one but I don't know if it was White.


Wally Yonamine was a Japanese-American from Hawaii who starred for the Yomiuri Giants in the 1950s. He was the first American player inducted into the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame. A photo caption in this page indicated that the Ginats had several Nisei players in 1955:

Wally Yonamine photos

"The Yomiuri Giants Nisei players in 1955. From left to right, Yonamine, Jyun Hirota, Dick Kashiwaeda, and Andy Miyamoto."
   19. Kurt Posted: May 09, 2008 at 09:09 PM (#2775247)
Re 5, can anyone think of a case where a single writer has played a larger role in the discourse about one player than Bill James on Roy White?

Michael Lewis and Jeremy Brown.
   20. Bruce Markusen Posted: May 09, 2008 at 10:17 PM (#2775430)
Thanks for the comments, guys.

The point made by Blackadder about James and White is particularly apt. Whenever I hear White's name now, James is one of the first people that comes to mind.

I seem to remember some friction between Martin and White, not only when Roy played, but during his Yankee coaching days. I believe he was a coach on Martin's staff, then was let go with no real reason given. I don't know what it was about White that Martin didn't like--perhaps White wasn't fiery enough--but once Billy didn't like you, it was hard to move out of his doghouse. Gura, Reggie, Ken Holtzman, and a few others know that feeling all too well.
   21. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: May 10, 2008 at 12:03 AM (#2775719)
but once Billy didn't like you, it was hard to move out of his doghouse

I heard this same thing said about the guy who coached the Hall of Fame softball team.
   22. CFiJ Posted: May 10, 2008 at 02:11 AM (#2775761)
Regarding White and Japan, it wasn't that he was the first of anything, but rather that he had an excellent reputation as a hard-working, clutch, and courteous team player who made efforts to learn about and interact in Japanese culture. IIRC, in "You Gotta Have Wa" Robert Whiting talks about him learning enough Japanese to say, "Sumimasen, isoide-imasu" (I'm sorry, I'm in a hurry) when trying to get past autograph-seeking fans on the way to the ballpark.

His Japanese Wikipedia entry notes, "Although his three years with the Giants was not a long time at all, he was greatly respected by his teammates for his modest and gentlemanly character, and was later the first foreign player* invited to take part in the Veteran Giants Convention."

*This doesn't count Yonamine, I imagine, because he was born of Japanese parents.

Incidently, the Wikipedia entry has his Japanese stats:
1980 - 128 G, 469 AB, 29 HR, .284/.365/.514
1981 - 127 G, 422 AB, 13 HR, .273/.374/.422
1982 - 107 G, 338 AB, 12 HR, .296/.353/.435

NPB Career: 362 G, 1229 AB, 54 HR, .283/.365/.461
   23. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 11, 2008 at 05:12 AM (#2776531)
Re 5, can anyone think of a case where a single writer has played a larger role in the discourse about one player than Bill James on Roy White?

Franklin Pierce Adams got Joe Tinker into the Hall of Fame.
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