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Thursday, September 18, 2008

Bruce Markusen’s Cooperstown Confidential: Card Corner--Roy White

“There isn’t an ocean between them...just a stream.”

No less an authority than Bill James (who is ironically now a Boston Red Sox employee) has become one of White’s biggest champions, going so far as to claim that White was a better ballplayer than his Red Sox’ left field counterpart, Jim Rice. That’s especially noteworthy given that Rice undergoes an annual dalliance with the BBWAA, which has come within a whisker of electing him to the Hall of Fame. Rice is expected to win election next January, while White fell off the writers’ ballot after one inglorious campaign in 1985. White received no votes (while far lesser players like Don Kessinger and Jesus Alou garnered two and one, respectively), thereby dropping off the ballot immediately.

Now I don’t mean to carry the appreciation of White too far. Personally, I’ve never completely swallowed the comparisons with Rice. Rice’s lifetime on-base percentage was only eight points less than White’s, while his slugging percentage was light years better. The measure of ballpark effects is overrated here, too. While Rice certainly had an advantage hitting at Fenway Park, let’s remember that Yankee Stadium’s reputation as a pitcher’s park for much of the sixties and early seventies was overstated because of just how poor the Yankees’ offense was during those in-between years. Lineups overrun by players like Bobby Cox, Ron Woods, Jerry Kenney, and Celerino Sanchez tended to suppress the run-scoring totals at the Stadium. And then there was the matter of White’s arm, which might have been worse than that of Bernie Williams. White tended to throw “parachutes"--long, looping throws with a high arc--giving opposition baserunners an opportunity to take extra bases on balls hit to left field.

Repoz Posted: September 18, 2008 at 07:52 AM | 8 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralHistoryHall of FameNY Yankees

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   1. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: September 18, 2008 at 08:23 AM (#2946014)
I have that card still. Memories...

Lineups overrun by players like Bobby Cox, Ron Woods, Jerry Kenney, and Celerino Sanchez tended to suppress the run-scoring totals at the Stadium.

I don't think that's a fair criticism of park factors. Those guys played on the road, too.

And then there was the matter of White’s arm, which might have been worse than that of Bernie Williams. White tended to throw “parachutes"--long, looping throws with a high arc--giving opposition baserunners an opportunity to take extra bases on balls hit to left field.

If he'd been a LF in Fenway, everyone would've said how he had a cannon.
   2. Ryan Jones Posted: September 18, 2008 at 09:15 AM (#2946039)
I don't think that's a fair criticism of park factors. Those guys played on the road, too.


I don't think that it was a criticism of park factors - I think it was intended as a criticism of the casual observer at the time, and their understanding of park effects. Since the Yankees couldn't hit there (The Yankees!), it must have been an absolute offensive hellhole, rather than things just looking bad because the Yankees couldn't hit anywhere.

It's sort of like how most people still "know" that Comerica is a huge pitchers park, despite the actual numbers showing it to be roughly neutral.
   3. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: September 18, 2008 at 11:10 AM (#2946141)
I don't think that it was a criticism of park factors - I think it was intended as a criticism of the casual observer at the time, and their understanding of park effects.

I didn't get that out of what was written. But while maybe the Peanut Gallery was right for the wrong reasons, they were still right. Yankee stadium was in fact quite pitcherly for most of White's career.
   4. vern_fuller_brushback Posted: September 18, 2008 at 11:18 AM (#2946148)
Lineups overrun by players like Bobby Cox, Ron Woods, Jerry Kenney, and Celerino Sanchez tended to suppress the run-scoring totals at the Stadium.


Where's Gene Michael?
   5. Ryan Jones Posted: September 18, 2008 at 11:25 AM (#2946158)
ut while maybe the Peanut Gallery was right for the wrong reasons, they were still right. Yankee stadium was in fact quite pitcherly for most of White's career.


Oh, I'm not prepared to argue that they were wrong about it being a hitters park, but rather that the inclusion of a whole bunch of really bad hitters (regardless of park) may have caused them to overestimate the magnitude of the park effects.
   6. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 18, 2008 at 11:43 AM (#2946190)
Lineups overrun by players like Bobby Cox, Ron Woods, Jerry Kenney, and Celerino Sanchez tended to suppress the run-scoring totals at the Stadium.

Where's Gene Michael?


hidden player trick
   7. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: September 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM (#2946281)
Didn't Chicken Stanley have an unusual stance, too? If you're reading, Bruce, and you take requests, you should do a piece on Stanley, featuring his 1979 Topps card, and include the story about his grand slam off of Mike Torrez in 1978.
   8. Steve Treder Posted: September 18, 2008 at 12:43 PM (#2946302)
Oh, I'm not prepared to argue that they were wrong about it being a hitters park, but rather that the inclusion of a whole bunch of really bad hitters (regardless of park) may have caused them to overestimate the magnitude of the park effects.

Fine, but so what? That has nothing to do with whether or not Yankee Stadium actually was a pitchers' park, and of course it actually was very distinctly a pitchers' park throughout White's peak, most especially in comparison with Fenway Park, which was the most hitter-friendly in its long history through Rice's peak. The reality of the issue should concern us today, not whether people at the time properly or improperly perceived it.
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