BBTF's Newsblog Discussion :: Bucs Dugout: Worst GM Poll: J.P. Ricciardi vs. Ned Colletti

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Tuesday, April 22, 2008

Bucs Dugout: Worst GM Poll: J.P. Ricciardi vs. Ned Colletti

This has to be the most eagerly awaited match-up since Santo y Blue Demon vs Dr. Frankenstein!

But whatever. The Dodgers’ ownership gave in to the chattering idiots and fired DePodesta after just a year and a half on the job. In his place, the Dodgers hired Colletti, whose philosophy seemed diametrically opposed to DePodesta’s. Colletti worked under Brian Sabean in San Francisco and represented baseball’s old guard. When asked about VORP, a very basic and useful new stat that every GM should be aware of, Colletti memorably replied, ‘’I may be using it and not even know it, and if I am, it’s nobody’s business. There are a lot of different criteria in judging players. I think I use, um, esoteric qualitative mathematical review times five. That’s one of them.”

The ha-ha anti-intellectualism of this response must have warmed the hearts (and souls!) of LA’s media, who practically threw Colletti a parade. A parade with lots of heart! And soul! And guts! And no pocket protectors! Or calculators! Ha ha, nerds!

...What I oppose is the knee-jerk rejection of statistical analysis, and the use of vague appeals to heart and soul to excuse complete cluelessness. Have you ever seen Juan Pierre play? I have. He’s not a good baseball player, and any scout worth his or her salt should be able to see that. He can’t throw, he doesn’t play otherwise spectacular defense, he can barely hit the ball out of the infield, he doesn’t get on base, and he doesn’t steal bases terribly efficiently. He’s fast. That’s about it.

Repoz Posted: April 22, 2008 at 12:05 AM | 33 comment(s)
Related News: General, Sabermetrics, LA Dodgers, Toronto

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1. MSI Posted: April 22, 2008 at 01:00 AM (#2753776)

Even though I think Ricciardi is a touch smarter and has shown a learning curve (albeit a very slow one), and that Colletti's strengths are only what the scouting director (forget his name) does exceedingly well, I still give the worst GM nod to Ricciardi on the fact he's been in office way longer.

But who cares anyway? Sabean is clearly the worst GM in baseball...I guess the other seedings will rank them after him.

2. Silencio Posted: April 22, 2008 at 01:11 AM (#2753779)

Meh Ill go with Colletti as being worse. I think the Jays as a whole are about where they were when JP was hired, but I think Colletti has made the Dodgers worse as a whole since he was hired.

3. AlouGoodbye Posted: April 22, 2008 at 01:28 AM (#2753784)

Sabean is the #1 seed in the poll, and as such got a bye in the first round. I believe in the quarter-finals he is facing Wayne Krivsky (who handily defeated Kenny Williams in the first round). Not only should Sabean win this contest easily - now that Isiah Thomas has gone, I believe Brian could rival Matt Millen for the coveted title of worst GM in North American sports.

But Sabean had better not rest of his laurels. There are up-and-coming GMs who can rival him for that worst-GM spot in the years to come - Bill Smith and Frank Wren spring to mind.

4. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: April 22, 2008 at 01:53 AM (#2753787)

And none of the players DePodesta traded ever did anything interesting.

Lo Duca's done interesting things. Not on the field, but still.

5. The Mets make Russlan sad Posted: April 22, 2008 at 02:01 AM (#2753788)

I believe in the quarter-finals he is facing Wayne Krivsky (who handily defeated Kenny Williams in the first round)

Kenny Williams has a ring and the year that team won it, they didn't have a huge payroll. His team is leading the division by 2.5 games and the Sox are up 5 games in the loss column on the Indians.

He is not a bad GM. What has Shapiro done that Williams hasn't?

6. theboyqueen Posted: April 22, 2008 at 02:20 AM (#2753793)

I don't really see what's wrong with Colletti's quote there, to be honest. It's a bit much to extrapolate anti-intellectualism.

7. RollingWave Posted: April 22, 2008 at 03:44 AM (#2753802)

Anyone who gives a star deal to Juan Pierre is pretty bad. he's had some bad luck with some of this other deals (though maybe that's also a lack of good scouting) like Jason Schimdt and Andruw Jones (so far) and the Dodgers have been showing a strange preplexity in playing scrubby vets over talented kids (and that was BEFORE Joe Torre arrived). the Dodgers have probably the top 3 best core of young talent in the league (I'd say D-back / Brewer / Dodgers ) AND they have truely talented vets ( Furcal / Penny / Lowe / Saito /Kent etc...) yet the Dodgers mananged to finish *4th* last year . (granted they were still .500 ) dipsite a career year from Brad Penny and Takashi Saito continuing his improbable run.

as for Ricarddi, his moves hasn't been bad. he's pretty good at finding value with a budget. the grudge on him is that he's not drafting very well so far. then again, in that division they need some extrodinary good performance from him to have a chance.

8. Tuque Snider Posted: April 22, 2008 at 04:23 AM (#2753807)

That's the frustrating thing about the Dodgers. I feel like they're a championship-caliber team -- Ethier, Kemp, Jones, Furcal, Loney, LaRoche, old Kent, Martin, Billingsley, Penny, Kuroda, Lowe, Broxton. If you gave those players to Theo Epstein or Billy Beane or whatever fancy happy GM is the big thing these days -- ANYBODY except Colletti -- they'd be hitting your balls back into your body within three weeks.

God I hate that guy. More than any other baseball figure -- more than, I don't know, Juan Pierre, Dusty Baker, the ghost of Neifi Perez, even Admiral Evil Joe Morgan himself -- I despise Ned Colletti for taking what could be a truly excellent team and doing everything he can to #### it up. God damn. ####. What an asscock.

9. Greg Schuler Posted: April 22, 2008 at 08:24 AM (#2753825)

Logan White was the Dodger's scouting director. He is now a VP of player personnel or some such title - not quite involved int he draft, but keeping an eye on it. Like Mike Rizzo in Washington.

White replaced Ed Creech, who went on to spin his magic in Pittsburgh.

10. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: April 22, 2008 at 09:10 AM (#2753857)

He is not a bad GM. What has Shapiro done that Williams hasn't?

I'm pretty sure he's saying Krivisky is handily worse than Williams.

11. RB in NYC (Now with a Training Schedule!) Posted: April 22, 2008 at 09:15 AM (#2753862)

Colletti is just killing JP at the moment. Bill Bavasi seems to have screwed by the selection committe, coming in at #4. He really ought to be higher than that.

12. SoSH U at work Posted: April 22, 2008 at 09:40 AM (#2753877)

I'm pretty sure he's saying Krivisky is handily worse than Williams.

And Russlan is probably asking what Kenny Williams is doing in this poll at all.

13. Stately, Plump Buck Mulligan Posted: April 22, 2008 at 09:47 AM (#2753882)

What has Shapiro done that Williams hasn't?

Had a bar mitzvah?

14. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 22, 2008 at 09:53 AM (#2753886)

Krivsky HAS held onto the Reds young talent despite urging from the outside to trade it for starting pitching. He has also picked up some free talent in guys like Keppinger.

It may well be that Wayne, in his eagerness to shed some baggage from the previous regime, pulled the trigger too quickly on a few deals.

There is also word that after much hemming and hawing the team is reaching out to Dunn about an extension. And with the announcing team moving on to Edwin Encarnacion as the new whipping boy it's possible that Dunn will at least listen.

15. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 22, 2008 at 10:19 AM (#2753906)

But Krivsky hired Dusty Baker. It's gonna take a lot to overcome that move as a GM

16. shoewizard Posted: April 22, 2008 at 10:41 AM (#2753927)

I voted Ricciardi the worst.

Ned Colletti......Dodger GM for LIFE!!!! :-)

17. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 22, 2008 at 10:51 AM (#2753932)

SSR:

In the right setting Dusty can succeed. If he can keep Jr. to 125 games, stroke Dunn's ego, get EE on track, play Votto and let Harang/Arroyo do the heavy lifting on the mound the Reds will be in the mix.

And you know what? So far he is doing all of those things. The only items of concern are giving Corey such a high profile in the offense and riding Cueto late in games.

18. Wakefieldfan Posted: April 22, 2008 at 11:00 AM (#2753940)

In a related story, J.P. Ricciardi is dominating the "worst black GM" poll

19. flournoy Posted: April 22, 2008 at 11:09 AM (#2753949)

There are up-and-coming GMs who can rival him for that worst-GM spot in the years to come - Bill Smith and Frank Wren spring to mind.

What has Frank Wren done to deserve that?

20. andrewberg of udub law Posted: April 22, 2008 at 12:29 PM (#2754015)

Relevant players acquired by Colletti: Ethier, Bill Mueller, Rafael Furcal, Nomar Garciaparra, Lofton, Tomko, Saito, Hendrickson, Dessens, Maddux, Lugo, Pierre, Wolf, Lieberthal, L. Gonzalez, Schmidt, Proctor, Hillenbrand, Wells, Loaiza, Kuroda

Relevant players lost by Colletti: Bradley, D. Sanchez, Navarro, Seo, Perez, Izturis, Guzman, Drew, Gagne, Maddux, Lofton, Lugo, Betemit, Wolf

1) That is an awful lot of guys to bring in for a team with an extremely strong farm system. He really has resisted giving the kids a shot.
2) Lots of turnover for only his third year at the helm. Even if he didn't give up much, shuffling around Maddux, Lugo, and Wolf so quickly shows a lack of a long-term vision.
3) Between Bradley, Navarro, Drew, and Betemit, there is a lot more upside on that second list. Ethier stands out as the only acquisition who could be expected to improve on his previous level of performance.

21. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM (#2754020)

"What has Frank Wren done to deserve that?"

Someone doesn't like the Meche deal, I guess.

22. John Lynch Posted: April 22, 2008 at 12:54 PM (#2754043)

I believe Brian could rival Matt Millen for the coveted title of worst GM in North American sports.

You obviously do not follow the Lions.

23. flournoy Posted: April 22, 2008 at 01:05 PM (#2754056)

Someone doesn't like the Meche deal, I guess.

Either you're confusing Frank Wren with Dayton Moore, or I just missed a joke or something...

24. AlouGoodbye Posted: April 22, 2008 at 01:15 PM (#2754070)

"What has Frank Wren done to deserve that?"

Big failure in Baltimore, and I'm puzzled by his start with the Braves. But it's early!

25. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 22, 2008 at 01:18 PM (#2754076)

"Either you're confusing Frank Wren with Dayton Moore, or I just missed a joke or something..."

All those Atlanta assistants look the same to me.

26. zenbitz Posted: April 22, 2008 at 01:36 PM (#2754108)

Will be interesting to see if this comes down to Coletti vs. Sabean... since Ned was Sabean's assistant and in charge of putting $$ on all those silly contracts to Neifi Perez etc.

27. Tim Lincecum doesn't Wang Chung tonite (GGC) Posted: April 22, 2008 at 01:54 PM (#2754128)

Anyone can be a failure if they are under the right ownership. I wouldn't dock Wren points because he worked for Angelos. And I'm not sure if McCourt isn't the real problem in LA.

28. Jimmy P Posted: April 22, 2008 at 02:11 PM (#2754153)

And I'm not sure if McCourt isn't the real problem in LA.

McCourt's definitely a problem. Did he hire Malone before DePo? He then caved to media pressure when DePo improved the team, and went out to hire a guy that would sign old, grizzled players.

Still, Coletti's deliberate moves to block his best players from playing time is pretty damning.

29. Shooty Is A One Man Legion Posted: April 22, 2008 at 02:14 PM (#2754156)

McCourt's definitely a problem. Did he hire Malone before DePo? He then caved to media pressure when DePo improved the team, and went out to hire a guy that would sign old, grizzled players.

I believe Dan Evans was the GM before DePo. Sheriff Malone was hired by Fox.

30. Jimmy P Posted: April 22, 2008 at 02:27 PM (#2754177)

I believe Dan Evans was the GM before DePo. Sheriff Malone was hired by Fox.

Thanks.

31. Mike A Posted: April 22, 2008 at 02:27 PM (#2754178)

It's a bit strong to consider Wren a 'big failure' in Baltimore. He had to deal with a hands-on, win-now, overbearing owner. Plus, his moves really weren't too bad (tough luck with Belle, for instance) and he had a good draft. I guess he dared take a stand against prima donna Ripken.

His start with the Braves has been OK. The Kotsay deal and Glavine signing were questionable, but looks like he made up for a good bit of that with the Renteria/Jurrjens deal. The Braves have been beset by injury but their run differential is still among the best in the NL.

I think the jury is very much still out on Wren. But I don't see anything to indicate incompetence along the lines of a Sabean.

32. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: April 22, 2008 at 02:39 PM (#2754202)

And Russlan is probably asking what Kenny Williams is doing in this poll at all.

Golly, you must be right. I just sort of assume KW is always in this conversation and everybody knows it.

33. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 22, 2008 at 02:49 PM (#2754235)

"Big failure in Baltimore, and I'm puzzled by his start with the Braves. But it's early!"

Wren was only in charge in Baltimore for 11 months. That's not really enough time to properly assess him, IMO.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2008

Bucs Dugout: Worst GM Poll: J.P. Ricciardi vs. Ned Colletti

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