I was always surprised that it took Gaston so long to get another managing job considering his track record.

hypothesis: most baseball men have more in common with Roger than with Cito......

I was always surprised that it took Gaston so long to get another managing job considering his track record.

While he was usually successful, a lot of people gave credit to his teams rather than to him. Basically, the view was that they had given him so many talented players that any idiot could have won. The fact that he was a very passive in-game manager didn't help that perception - he didn't use many lineups or platoons, didn't do a lot of hit & runs and sacrifices, and didn't use a lot of relievers or pinch hitters. He just sent out the players at the start of the game, and let them play until it was over.

He just sent out the players at the start of the game, and let them play until it was over.

This is called keeping an even keel if you're Joe Torre and it gets you into the HOF.

Refusal to pull Pat Hentgen -
Probably this game: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR199706250.shtml

I remember at the time think Gaston must have been crazy to leave him in so long. And had he gone to bullpen and gotten any effective work, the Jays would have won that game, but from a workload perspective, it was no big deal.

I thought that to pitch 8 innings and give up that many runs he must have been worked like a rented mule, but Hentgen only threw 76 pitches while facing 38 batters. Must have been right down the middle every time.

Incidentally, is anyone surprised to hear that yet another person isn't a big fan of off-the-field Roger Clemens? Me neither.

Wow, that is an amazing box score. To need only 76 pitches to go 8 innings is pretty unusual (anecdotally, at least), to do that while giving up 11 runs is crazy.

He faced 38 batters, on only 76 pitches. That's just silly.

e faced 38 batters, on only 76 pitches. That's just silly.

The Redsox had only 4 men left on base,
basically they'd get a hit off Hentgen, and one of the following batters homered... and repeat...

Wakefield faced 28 hitters and only threw 52 pitches in that game, with five walks.
The Mariners probably heard about Heathcliff Slocumb's impressive save and decided they had to have him.

Edit: Actually never mind. The box score didn't count most of the pitches thrown from the bottom of the third until the bottom of the fifth.

Take a look at the PBP there. Pitch data is missing for the 4th and 5th innings entirely, as well as a few other batters. If you add up all the listed pitches, you get 76. So he threw more than that, but data isn't there for all of the batters and the box only lists what it has.

Way to ruin it.

Take a look at the PBP there. Pitch data is missing for the 4th and 5th innings entirely, as well as a few other batters. If you add up all the listed pitches, you get 76. So he threw more than that, but data isn't there for all of the batters and the box only lists what it has.

Dang, too bad.

Drugs are bad, m'kay?

Basically, the view was that they had given him so many talented players that any idiot could have won.

A view trumpeted by the Toronto sports media, who wouldn't know how many sides home plate has if they couldn't count them on their fingers. Most of them didn't know a damn thing about baseball, let alone what a field manager does.

The fact that he was a very passive in-game manager didn't help that perception - he didn't use many lineups or platoons, didn't do a lot of hit & runs and sacrifices, and didn't use a lot of relievers or pinch hitters. He just sent out the players at the start of the game, and let them play until it was over.

Gaston was not unusually passive as a manager. He actually platooned a lot - much more than most other managers did. His teams ran a hell of a lot, and with an extremely high percentage. The Jays under Gaston played excellent team defense. They bunted considerably more than other good AL East teams did. His teams also always outperformed Pythagorean projections, indicating that they played when it counted. As far as relievers go, his teams were always below-average in complete games and Gaston leveraged his best relievers very highly, giving lots of work to guys like Ward, Timlin, Cox, and Eichhorn. It's true he spotted Tom Henke very carefully, though. (Henke had been overworked by Jimy Williams, who got him up to throw all the time; Cito treated him carefully and he pitched magnificently for him). Because Gaston had star players who kept themselves in condition and set the tone for the ballclub, he was derided as pushing buttons, but the fact was Gaston knew how much control to exercise and over which players.

The one oft-repeated canard you didn't touch on was that he was bad with young players, but he actually developed a huge number of young talents into major-league ballplayers.

Cito has the one unforgivable weakness in a modern-day manager : he doesn't suffer fools gladly. (cf. the comments above) So long as he didn't work for fools (i.e. so long as he worked for Pat Gillick and Paul Beeston) that was fine, even though the media hated him because he couldn't hide his contempt for them. Then a truly ruby-lipped fool, Gord Ash, took over as GM and Cito lasted only as long as Paul Beeston was in the Chairman's seat. Paul left and Gord Ash fired Cito.

The one oft-repeated canard you didn't touch on was that he was bad with young players, but he actually developed a huge number of young talents into major-league ballplayers.

I remember that one - wasn't it heavily related to the perceived handling of Olerud, Delgado, and Green?

If Cito keeps channelling Earl Weaver, I'll have to start a fan club.

The '92 Blue Jays:

Stole an average number of bases with well above average success
Were the best in the league at stealing 3rd
Pinch hit less than all but 1 AL team
Had the fewest sac bunt attempts and successes
Had an average number of CG and an average number of starts > 120 pitches
Had by far the fewest inherited runners, and by far the fewest relief appearances of less than 3 outs, which I assume means few mid-inning pitching changes
Used the fewest relievers
Had a below-average rate of multi-inning relief appearances

Thanks for that. How do they compare in the 89-91 years, when people were first forming their impressions of Cito? If it was similar, I'd imagine a run like that would cement people's impressions, no matter what followed it.

I was always surprised that it took Gaston so long to get another managing job considering his track record.

I have heard that he was offered the Royals' job and that one other non-contending team offered him a managing position. He just chose not to take them. Knowing his personality that doesn't really surprise me a lot.

In 1992, Gaston used his relievers for exactly 1 inning more than half the time, compared to league average of under 30%. Was he an unsung developer of the modern bullpen? Last season 46% of AL relief appearances were exactly 1 inning.

I always thought that during the WS Cito was basically calling every pitch from the dugout, or at least that was one of the common stories I've heard often.

I don't know if Chris Jaffe already was able to collect all this information the hard way, but this new B-R is going to make this type of managerial/team-style analysis so much easier.

He is writing a book, ain't he? Anyone know if/when it's coming out?


Ryan, maybe I can look later...again must get back to work for now...

He is writing a book, ain't he? Anyone know if/when it's coming out?

Chris has actually completed his book, and submitted the manuscript to the publisher. I had the privilege of helping Chris out with much of the editing/factchecking, and I can tell you that this is going to be one phefreakingnomenal book.

Cito had a way of treating all of his players with respect and dignity. And by and large they responded very positively to this treatment.

One example was Devon White who Gillick acquired from the Angels after posting OPS of .686, 653, & 633 in the three previous seasons. Even though he was nobody's idea of a leadoff hitter Cito told him that he would be his leadoff hitter and go get them. Devo's OPS for the next six seasons....797, 693, 779, 770, 765, & 780. Combined with his stellar defense Devo was suddenly transformed into a very confident, competent, and valuable player from a fringe player. When the Jays acquired Rickey Henderson Cito had a long talk with Devon explaining how Rickey was probably the best leadoff hitter of all time and would he consider giving up the leadoff spot to Rickey. Well, of course, no problem. And Devo continued to excel in the 7th spot.

Another thing that Cito wouldn't do was pinch hit for his light hitting shortstop, Manny Lee. He said he didn't want to take away his confidence. This actually made quite a bit of sense since the Jays were virtual locks to make the playoffs anyways. It's worth noting that in the post season he did pinch hit for Manny Lee on occasion.

In the 1992 World Series he clearly out managed Bobby Cox every step of the way. Very impressive for a guy who did virtually nothing out of his standard routine during the regular season. In the regular season he wanted players to know their exact roles and he never veered from them. In the post season he managed to win the games. All in all it was a formula that worked well with this particular team, and he did show that he could in-game manage with the best of them when he chose too, but his primary concern was keeping his players happy and comfortable, and he did that really well.

One thing you'll find in Toronto is that the few who are willing to piss on Cito, are the few who still believe JP Ricciardi isn't a joke.

In what way is JP Ricciardi a joke?

One thing you'll find in Toronto is that the few who are willing to piss on Cito, are the few who still believe JP Ricciardi isn't a joke.

Really? Doesn't seem like there's any correlation at all to me.

I'm happy to support both JP and Cito. As far as I'm concerned, JP would have probably taken the Jays to the playoffs at least once if he were in a different division, and gets far too much grief here just because he didn't turn out to be the next GM of the great sabrmetric revolution. My major criticisms would involve his ability to handle the PR aspects (bad), and his seeming inability to acquire high-upside players on offense.

Cito, however, is just straight-up awesome.

The '92 Blue Jays

That was indeed when the push-button criticism took off, and it was in fact his least active year as a manager that I can recall. The same is definitely not be true of '91, or '93, for example. Good data OB... shows that some of my defence is overstated.

Worth noting that when Gaston was hired in the first place he was hired for the man management skills. His bench coach was supposed to handle the in-game side of things.

Over time that changed.

I always thought that during the WS Cito was basically calling every pitch from the dugout, or at least that was one of the common stories I've heard often.

What I heard is that he was calling the <u>other</u> team's pitches, i.e., he could quickly see very subtle tells from the opposing pitchers.

I have heard that he was offered the Royals' job and that one other non-contending team offered him a managing position. He just chose not to take them. Knowing his personality that doesn't really surprise me a lot.

He was the other finalist for the White Sox job, but they went with Guillen instead. I'm not sure if there was on offer or not, or if the Sox just preferred Ozzie. Some people in Chicago assumed it was another Reinsdorf loyalty thing (and a cheapness thing as well) to hire Ozzie.

What I heard is that he was calling the other team's pitches, i.e., he could quickly see very subtle tells from the opposing pitchers.

This is what I've heard too. He's long had the reputation of being an expert at picking out when pitchers are tipping pitches, and stealing signs.

He was the other finalist for the White Sox job, but they went with Guillen instead. I'm not sure if there was on offer or not, or if the Sox just preferred Ozzie. Some people in Chicago assumed it was another Reinsdorf loyalty thing (and a cheapness thing as well) to hire Ozzie.

I believe he also interviewed with Cleveland at one point, after Hargrove left.